2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)

[Charlie Harper]

I said it earlier in this thread--but the problem with the Pelicans was not talent--it was coaching.   Even before the Cousins trade--a well coached team featuring Anthony Davis, Jrue Holiday, Tyreke, Terrence Jones..etc--should have been the favorites competing for the last spot of the Western Conference Playoffs.  Now they commit highway robbery--and get Cousins for pennies--and go 0-3 with one of the better rosters in the NBA.   With that being said--I do think that sheer talent alone should start winning the Pelicans some games--but don't confuse these upcoming wins as being a result of great coaching.  

So what exactly is Gentry doing wrong?

 

[Kev4029]

Given their contracts and everything, how many teams would trade rosters with the Pelicans right now? 

At least half the NBA, maybe more. With a decent GM, and two young transcendent talents you would have a lot of opportunity to build a championship contender.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Given their contracts and everything, how many teams would trade rosters with the Pelicans right now? 

How many teams would trade rosters with the Pelicans with Jrue, AD, and Cousins? Lets see Orlando, Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Phoenix, Lakers, Sacramento, Atlanta, Knicks, Nets,  Mavericks, Detroit, Charlotte, Denver, Portland all easily would.  

 

[jvdesigns2002]

No, that roster is not top 5 in either conference and no coaching could get them there. 

No coaching could get them there?   I wish I could test this hypothesis with coach Pops, Stevens or Spoelstra.  Obviously there is no way to do this--so we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

 

[Moe.]

Not sure about Denver, but even still, that doesn't make it one of the best rosters in the NBA. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I had no idea they did that. After the trade I assumed he would start for them. Makes no sense, even if he was hurt for the rest of the year, his early bird rights could have been helpful in resigning him. Their roster is really really shallow.

Caspi broke his thumb/hand the day they waived terrence jones. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Not sure about Denver, but even still, that doesn't make it one of the best rosters in the NBA. 

I never said one of the "best"---I said "one of the better".  Look what coach spoelstra is doing with the Heat over the last 18 games with a roster that that looks like a junior varsity high school team compared to theirs.   

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Not sure about Denver, but even still, that doesn't make it one of the best rosters in the NBA. 

Denver had zero problem offering up Gallo, Mudiaye, chandler all for trades.  They essentially offered a kings ransom for Paul George who doesn't carry nearly the value that Anthony Davis has.   I assure you--the only person that the Nuggets are married to on their roster is Jokic--and they would gladly give him up for AD if they could. 

 

[thecatch]

I had no idea they did that. After the trade I assumed he would start for them. Makes no sense, even if he was hurt for the rest of the year, his early bird rights could have been helpful in resigning him. Their roster is really really shallow.

Broke his hand in his first game and was going to miss the rest of the year, and they wanted his roster spot. He's very underrated and waiving him and losing his bird rights on a team that desperately needs floor spacing was a mistake. If I were the Kings I would have started him over Gay this year - no idea why he ended up in  Joerger's dog house. 

 

[Kev4029]

Caspi broke his thumb/hand the day they waived terrence jones. 

They must be desperate to scrape the bottom of the barrel to fill in his roster spot while sacrificing the ability to sign a useful player next year.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

So what exactly is Gentry doing wrong?

Gentry is a players coach-he's not a leader of men.   I think this is his 4th or 5th head coaching gig.  I personally believe he's better served as an assistant coach than he is a head coach.   I don't think he disciplines his players. I don't think he utilizes the talent that he has to the fullest.  I don't think he pays as much attention to the defensive end as he could or should.   The plain answer is--he's not winning.   Look at tonight's game--going against an OKC team with no Oladipo--a Taj Gibson that hardly got on the court.  OKC is one of the worst 3pt shooting teams in the league--which means they do most of their damage in the interior--which should be a strength of the Pelicans with Boogie and AD.  An OKC team with no Oladipo just scored 118pts against them.   That's not good coaching. 

 

[Kev4029]

Not sure about Denver, but even still, that doesn't make it one of the best rosters in the NBA. 

Yeah, I might be biased, but the Nuggets have some top flight really young talent and gobs of cap space next year. Going forward, AD is by far the best player on either team, but I would take Jokic and his contract over Cousins without a thought. The rosters 3-15 lean so far towards Denver, I don't think there is even much of a debate to who has the better roster. I don't think there is a player on the Pelicans roster beyond Cousins, Davis, and Holiday who would even make the active roster for Denver.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Yeah, I might be biased, but the Nuggets have some top flight really young talent and gobs of cap space next year. Going forward, AD is by far the best player on either team, but I would take Jokic and his contract over Cousins without a thought. The rosters 3-15 lean so far towards Denver, I don't think there is even much of a debate to who has the better roster. I don't think there is a player on the Pelicans roster beyond Cousins, Davis, and Holiday who would even make the active roster for Denver.

Again--I'll bring up the point that Denver was willing to let Gallo, Chandler, Mudiaye, Faried, and their draft picks all be available for trade.  They allegedly offered up a kings ransom for Paul George and were declined--and George is only worth a fraction of what AD is worth. However--if you want to stick with Denver not trading rosters with the Pelicans--what are your thoughts on Memphis?

 

[Capella]

Stop it man. You have arguably the best center in the game, the best PF in the game--and easily a top 15pg in the game on one roster--and you are still complaining about a lack of talent? You're telling me that coach pops, spoelstra, doc, Stevens couldn't make that team into a legit top 5 in either conference?  Learn basketball before arguing for the sake of arguing. 

We've had this discussion. The conversation for Jrue as a PG starts after #20. 

Their roster sucks superhomer. Sorry. 

 

[Capella]

I love that he keeps mentioning Jrue in the same comment as AD and Cousins. Lol

 

[Capella]

How many teams would trade rosters with the Pelicans with Jrue, AD, and Cousins? Lets see Orlando, Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Phoenix, Lakers, Sacramento, Atlanta, Knicks, Nets,  Mavericks, Detroit, Charlotte, Denver, Portland all easily would.  

This isn't difficult. Most teams would give up anything for AD. Clearly no team would give up much for Cousins. No team in the league would swap their 4-12 with NO. 

 

[Kev4029]

Denver had zero problem offering up Gallo, Mudiaye, chandler all for trades.  They essentially offered a kings ransom for Paul George who doesn't carry nearly the value that Anthony Davis has.   I assure you--the only person that the Nuggets are married to on their roster is Jokic--and they would gladly give him up for AD if they could. 

I don't think looking for an opportunity to improve the roster is an indictment on those players individual talent. Sure they aren't as good as Butler or George, but those are both top 6-8 wings in the NBA. And both of whom every team in the NBA would rather have than Cousins. 

Reportedly, the Nuggets weren't having any discussions regarding Murray even in "blockbuster" trades. 

 

[Kev4029]

Again--I'll bring up the point that Denver was willing to let Gallo, Chandler, Mudiaye, Faried, and their draft picks all be available for trade.  They allegedly offered up a kings ransom for Paul George and were declined--and George is only worth a fraction of what AD is worth. However--if you want to stick with Denver not trading rosters with the Pelicans--what are your thoughts on Memphis?

Are we talking about 2017 or moving forward?

 

[jvdesigns2002]

We've had this discussion. The conversation for Jrue as a PG starts after #20. 

Their roster sucks superhomer. Sorry. 

We had this discussion before---and you or your buddy couldn't come up with 15pgs that are better than Jrue.   Why don't you read up earlier in this thread?  Also, maybe you can actually grow up and learn to have a civil discussion with somebody that might actually have a different point of view than you ----instead of using that stupid laughing head emoticon like a 14 year old would?   Last I checked this is a thread about NBA basketball that is supposed to invite discussion--not discourage it through juvenile behavior--so maybe it's your attitude and your inability to communicate with somebody who actualy might see things differently than you in a polite manner that "sucks".   Sorry.  

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Are we talking about 2017 or moving forward?

Right now.  Would the Memphis Grizzlies swap rosters with the Pelicans.   Their huge Chandler Parsons contract and all. 

 

[Frostillicus]

We had this discussion before---and you or your buddy couldn't come up with 15pgs that are better than Jrue.   Why don't you read up earlier in this thread?  Also, maybe you can actually grow up and learn to have a civil discussion with somebody that might actually have a different point of view than you ----instead of using that stupid laughing head emoticon like a 14 year old would?   Last I checked this is a thread about NBA basketball that is supposed to invite discussion--not discourage it through juvenile behavior--so maybe it's your attitude and your inability to communicate with somebody who actualy might see things differently than you in a polite manner that "sucks".   Sorry.  

The Timberwolves have 3 point guards better than Jrue.

 

[Capella]

We had this discussion before---and you or your buddy couldn't come up with 15pgs that are better than Jrue.   Why don't you read up earlier in this thread?  Also, maybe you can actually grow up and learn to have a civil discussion with somebody that might actually have a different point of view than you ----instead of using that stupid laughing head emoticon like a 14 year old would?   Last I checked this is a thread about NBA basketball that is supposed to invite discussion--not discourage it through juvenile behavior--so maybe it's your attitude and your inability to communicate with somebody who actualy might see things differently than you in a polite manner that "sucks".   Sorry.  

Ironically, Simmons and his NBA bros on their podcast the other day counted down PGs that they would take over Jrue. He came in around 23rd. 

There is no argument to be had about their roster. Davis is great, Cousins might be one day but then might just be a stats hog, Jrue is ok, and the rest is garbage. ?

 

[Frostillicus]

Ironically, Simmons and his NBA bros on their podcast the other day counted down PGs that they would take over Jrue. He came in around 23rd. 

There is no argument to be had about their roster. Davis is great, Cousins might be one day but then might just be a stats hog, Jrue is ok, and the rest is garbage. ?

Good chance Buddy Hield becomes a star though, then they'll be in great shape!

 

[Kev4029]

Right now.  Would the Memphis Grizzlies swap rosters with the Pelicans.   Their huge Chandler Parsons contract and all. 

What I'm trying to ask, is are we talking about just the 2017 season or 2017 and the future? If we are talking 2017, the Grizzlies have the better roster but they aren't really going anywhere this year. If we are talking about 2017 going forward, the Grizzlies are old without a lot of hope after this season so I'm fairly certain they would swap rosters.

 

[Charlie Harper]

Gentry is a players coach-he's not a leader of men.   I think this is his 4th or 5th head coaching gig.  I personally believe he's better served as an assistant coach than he is a head coach.   I don't think he disciplines his players. I don't think he utilizes the talent that he has to the fullest.  I don't think he pays as much attention to the defensive end as he could or should.   The plain answer is--he's not winning.   Look at tonight's game--going against an OKC team with no Oladipo--a Taj Gibson that hardly got on the court.  OKC is one of the worst 3pt shooting teams in the league--which means they do most of their damage in the interior--which should be a strength of the Pelicans with Boogie and AD.  An OKC team with no Oladipo just scored 118pts against them.   That's not good coaching. 

That's a lot of words to say: you have no idea.

 

[Kev4029]

Ironically, Simmons and his NBA bros on their podcast the other day counted down PGs that they would take over Jrue. He came in around 23rd. 

Oh bull####. I'm no fan of Holiday, he has his faults, especially his injury history, but putting him at 23 puts guys like Peyton, Rose, and Collison above him

 

[jvdesigns2002]

What I'm trying to ask, is are we talking about just the 2017 season or 2017 and the future? If we are talking 2017, the Grizzlies have the better roster but they aren't really going anywhere this year. If we are talking about 2017 going forward, the Grizzlies are old without a lot of hope after this season so I'm fairly certain they would swap rosters.

Tell me both instances. Even this season---does Memphis have definitively more talent than New Orleans?  Even if you call Cousins and Gasol a wash---and I concede that conley is a big upgrade from Jrue--you don't think that AD accounts for everything else versus the Memphis roster? My guess is that they would trade rosters this year or for the future.   In any case--I appreciate your point of view. Even though we oppose each other on some of them--it's nice to actualy have a well thought about debate with somebody that is able to do so without being snarky or insulting. 

 

[Capella]

Oh bull####. I'm no fan of Holiday, he has his faults, especially his injury history, but putting him at 23 puts guys like Peyton, Rose, and Collison above him

Some of it was contract related, like would you rather have ____ at x dollars or Jrue at 20M after this year, but the point is he's not really that good. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Ironically, Simmons and his NBA bros on their podcast the other day counted down PGs that they would take over Jrue. He came in around 23rd. 

There is no argument to be had about their roster. Davis is great, Cousins might be one day but then might just be a stats hog, Jrue is ok, and the rest is garbage. ?

That is absolutely garbage.  Your buddy at the time said Jrue woudln't sniff the top 15--and could only name 14 guys who he thought was better. Your guy left Bledsoe off of the list (which is a mistake--I think Bledsoe is ahead of Jrue)--but put Rubio and Beverly ahead of him--which is a joke in my opinion--but debatable in other peoples opinions.   Jrue is easily top 12-16.   Do us all a favor and name even 20 guys that you think are better than Jrue--and lets keep it to true PG's--no putting guys like Harden or Lebron in there. 

 

[Kev4029]

Some of it was contract related, like would you rather have ____ at x dollars or Jrue at 20M after this year, but the point is he's not really that good. 

If it is like his trade column, I guess there could be an argument, but I struggle to find 20 point guards in the NBA that are definitively starting quantity and he is definitely one of them. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

That's a lot of words to say: you have no idea.

Okay--since you want to paint me like a clueless basketball idiot because I actually explained a position--why don't you prove me wrong and argue the counterpoint? How has Gentry done a fantastic job with that roster?  How has he made his guys over achieve?  Do you think the fans of New Orleans think he's maximizing the potential with the roster that he has?   Since when was it a negative to use a decent amount of words in a thread where the entire point is discussion?  Oh let me guess--you are one of those people that can't actually digest that people can have differing points of view where both carry merit?  

 

[jvdesigns2002]

If it is like his trade column, I guess there could be an argument, but I struggle to find 20 point guards in the NBA that are definitively starting quantity and he is definitely one of them. 

Here is the exchange earlier in the thread about Jrue

Off the top of my head...

Wall, Westbrook, Dame, Lowry, Paul, Curry, Thomas, Irving, Walker, Conley, Dragic, Teague, Rubio, Beverly... That's 14 who I doubt anyone would argue. So maybe 15th but an argument could be made for a half dozen guys there. Moral of the story: he's nothing special.

Rubio and Beverly ahead of Jrue?  Not a chance in heck.     I'd easily take those two out--but I'd put Bledsoe in.   I'd easily put Jrue in the same category as Teague and Dragic--which would probably put him in the 12-15 range based one's exact rankings. Saying that he wouldn't "sniff" the top 15 was just plain wrong.  

 

[Kev4029]

Tell me both instances. Even this season---does Memphis have definitively more talent than New Orleans?  Even if you call Cousins and Gasol a wash---and I concede that conley is a big upgrade from Jrue--you don't think that AD accounts for everything else versus the Memphis roster? My guess is that they would trade rosters this year or for the future.   In any case--I appreciate your point of view. Even though we oppose each other on some of them--it's nice to actualy have a well thought about debate with somebody that is able to do so without being snarky or insulting. 

I think Gasol is a better player than Cousins and much easier to build a team around because he anchors their excellent defense and they also run a lot of their offense though him. Beyond him and Conley they aren't great but they have a lot of decent role players, something that the Pelicans have nothing of. There are thousands of minutes to fill in an NBA season and the Pelicans have an injury prone PG and two centers who don't fit together perfect.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Some of it was contract related, like would you rather have ____ at x dollars or Jrue at 20M after this year, but the point is he's not really that good. 

You saying somebody is not that good doesn't somehow make it a reality.  Since when is 16ppg, 7apg, 4rbg, 1.5steals per game, on 46% field goals, 38+% 3pt fg, and 70+% from the free throw line not good?   By the way--nice job with the title change of the thread. Much appreciated. 

 

[Moe.]

I never said one of the "best"---I said "one of the better".  Look what coach spoelstra is doing with the Heat over the last 18 games with a roster that that looks like a junior varsity high school team compared to theirs.   

Fair enough. It's a middle of the pack roster, which I guess would technically be one of the better ones. I have no idea how good of a job Gentry is doing, but point taken. Are you a Pelicans fan?

 

[Charlie Harper]

Okay--since you want to paint me like a clueless basketball idiot because I actually explained a position--why don't you prove me wrong and argue the counterpoint? How has Gentry done a fantastic job with that roster?  How has he made his guys over achieve?  Do you think the fans of New Orleans think he's maximizing the potential with the roster that he has?   Since when was it a negative to use a decent amount of words in a thread where the entire point is discussion?  Oh let me guess--you are one of those people that can't actually digest that people can have differing points of view where both carry merit?  

It all boils down to an accurate evaluation of the roster and expectations:

Brow and Boogie are All*Star talents...but they've only had Boogie for a handful of games. Holiday is an average starting player.....and he missed a bunch of games.

Then the rest of the roster is a bunch of spare parts (minus guys who played less than 200 minutes total). 

WS/48: Only Boogie and Davis are above league average (.100).

PER: Boogie, Davis, Jrue, Jones, and Tyreke only ones above average (PER 15). 

TS%: Only Cousins and Boogie score above the league average .552 TS%.

The Pels have a 1-3 that can compete with the best of them, but the rest of the roster is eh.

 

[sports_fan]

The Timberwolves have 3 point guards better than Jrue.

You're forgetting they just purchased a d-league team. So they actually have 5 point guards better than Jrue

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Fair enough. It's a middle of the pack roster, which I guess would technically be one of the better ones. I have no idea how good of a job Gentry is doing, but point taken. Are you a Pelicans fan?

I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to at least hear a point of view.  The funny thing is that I'm not a Pelicans fan--I'm a basketball fan. I've played hoops all of my life and I just prefer the NBA game to the college game. My favorite teams are the Pacers and the Lakers--both of which will be absolutely terrible for a while.  In my eyes--I actually see the Pelicans as a Pacers of the west this season.  When the Pacers got Teague, Thaddeus, a Myles turner with one year of experience under his belt, a healthy Paul George--I thought that the team had the talent to be a top 6 seed in the East with upside to do even better.  That team is too lying far below what their talent level allows them to be.   As a basketball fan--I just find it beyond crazy that any roster featuring a top 5-7 player on the planet, a top 20 player on the planet in regards to talent, and one of the better young pg's in the game would be complaining about a lack of talent on the roster.  Just shocked me a bit. Anyhow--thanks for the discussion and enjoy your night. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

You're forgetting they just purchased a d-league team. So they actually have 5 point guards better than Jrue

Jrue Holiday is the 15th best PG in the NBA this season in regards to PER.  Rubio and Lavine rank 26 and 27.   Your wolves almost just traded away Rubio for Derrick Rose---so that shows you how great they think he is. Just saying. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

It all boils down to an accurate evaluation of the roster and expectations:

Brow and Boogie are All*Star talents...but they've only had Boogie for a handful of games. Holiday is an average starting player.....and he missed a bunch of games.

Then the rest of the roster is a bunch of spare parts (minus guys who played less than 200 minutes total). 

WS/48: Only Boogie and Davis are above league average (.100).

PER: Boogie, Davis, Jrue, Jones, and Tyreke only ones above average (PER 15). 

TS%: Only Cousins and Boogie score above the league average .552 TS%.

The Pels have a 1-3 that can compete with the best of them, but the rest of the roster is eh.

I appreciate you taking the time to expand upon your opinion. While I disagree with some aspects of it--namely Boogie and Jrue.  I think Jrue is far above an average starting NBA player--and I think Boogie is truly one of the most talented players in the NBA today. However--maybe I'm too high on them--and maybe you too low on them--and the reality is that they are somewhere in the middle. In any case--thank you for the discussion. 

 

[Frostillicus]

Jrue Holiday is the 15th best PG in the NBA this season in regards to PER.  Rubio and Lavine rank 26 and 27.   Your wolves almost just traded away Rubio for Derrick Rose---so that shows you how great they think he is. Just saying. 

LaVine is a SG.  I was talking Rubio, Dunn, and Jones.  

 

[Charlie Harper]

I appreciate you taking the time to expand upon your opinion. While I disagree with some aspects of it--namely Boogie and Jrue.  I think Jrue is far above an average starting NBA player--and I think Boogie is truly one of the most talented players in the NBA today. However--maybe I'm too high on them--and maybe you too low on them--and the reality is that they are somewhere in the middle. In any case--thank you for the discussion. 

If they don't make playoffs next year then you can start blaming Gentry, but from what I've seen is the team plays hard and they move the ball. 

If you look at the stats the team is actually rated as the #10 in DefRtg and 27th in OffRtg...which is what many of us are pointing out....there's just not much talent on the Pels. 

BTW: I said Boogie and Brow are ALL*STAR talents. Only Jrue is an average PG.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I can't tell you how shocked I am to see an actual Pelicans discussion underway.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

LaVine is a SG.  I was talking Rubio, Dunn, and Jones.  

I'd easily take Jrue over any of those guys this season.  Dunn could be a great PG in the future.  I'm not a big believer in Rubio myself--I think he'll put up great assist numbers--but his lack of offensive consistency and fluidity in regards to shooting in a concern.  I don't think Jones will pass Jrue either--but I could be wrong there. 

 

[thecatch]

I can't tell you how shocked I am to see an actual Pelicans discussion underway.

Cousins suspended already!

 

[Frostillicus]

I'd easily take Jrue over any of those guys this season.  Dunn could be a great PG in the future.  I'm not a big believer in Rubio myself--I think he'll put up great assist numbers--but his lack of offensive consistency and fluidity in regards to shooting in a concern.  I don't think Jones will pass Jrue either--but I could be wrong there. 

I agree.  Rubio, Dunn, Jones = Jrue, Cousins, AD.  I just think Towns, Wiggins, etc. are better than what NO has left.

 

[Short Corner]

Meanwhile the Cavs get Deron Williams and possibly Bogut? On top of Korver that is pretty impressive (as will be the luxury tax expense).

If they clear waivers doesn't the team that waived them eat the salary/luxury tax implications?  The new team can sign them for the min IIRC.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I can't tell you how shocked I am to see an actual Pelicans discussion underway.

Even more shocking is that they have Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins but the discussion is somehow about Jrue Holiday.

 

[Thorpe]

Cousins can put up stats, but he doesn't make any team better.  If he did, Vlade would have traded him for more than what he got.

And with a 200 mil contract, his value is less than 0 IMO.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

They're really, really gonna need guys on cheap rookie contracts next year so I'm left scratching my head. If Durant wants the max-max they are going to be almost impossibly thin on the bench. Hopefully he takes a little less so they can keep Livingston and Iguodala but it's going to be a breath-holding decision.

also a good point.