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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (2 Viewers)

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tjnc09 said:
Analytics are great, but I think a lot of people get tunnel vision when using them.  For example, the Spurs defensive efficiency was worse with Leonard on the floor this year.  Obviously, that's because there is a much greater chance he is on the floor against teams using their elite offensive players, not because he is a terrible defender.
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Yes, but tools like PER do a pretty good job of measuring player efficiency. You can't just say Bradley is above average while ignoring things that don't supplement your argument. 

 
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Capella said:
Yes, but tools like PER do a pretty good job of measuring player efficiency. You can't just say Bradley is above average while ignoring things that don't supplement your argument. 
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You cannot also ignore the numerous shortcomings of one particular metric when making a complete analysis of a player. PER is one metric of many that needs to be looked at (including common sense, roster construction, defensive ability, the eye test..etc). 

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
Seems laughable that people want to criticize Ainge and the Celtics. They were in the Conference finals in 2012 with an aging, declining team. He has them back in the conference finals in 2017 despite only utilizing one of the three #1 picks he got for trading Pierce and Garnett. Brown is just starting to show his potential and looked great last night. They are sitting on a top 4 pick and I would be happy if they land any of the top 4 players. They can go after a max free agent if they so choose.  They also owns the Nets pick next year. What other team is in better shape? 
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Golden State, San Antonio, and Cleveland, at minimum

 
Just Win Baby said:
Golden State, San Antonio, and Cleveland, at minimum
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This is a fun exercise, but it totally depends on what the timeframe is.

For the next few years, I would agree with all three of those. And it is nearly impossible to look much further down the road, but the Celts really are set up nicely to compete for the next decade

 
the moops said:
This is a fun exercise, but it totally depends on what the timeframe is.

For the next few years, I would agree with all three of those. And it is nearly impossible to look much further down the road, but the Celts really are set up nicely to compete for the next decade
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I'm assuming this refers solely to their coach, GM, cap space and picks?  If so I agree, but it's worth nothing that their best player is 28 and their second-best player will turn 31 in two weeks. Unless they convert the picks into win now players it's unlikely that their current roster will ever interact with their draft assets in a meaningful way.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
I'm assuming this refers solely to their coach, GM, cap space and picks?  If so I agree, but it's worth nothing that their best player is 28 and their second-best player will turn 31 in two weeks. Unless they convert the picks into win now players it's unlikely that their current roster will ever interact with their draft assets in a meaningful way.
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They will be able to sign a max free agent if they want, they don't need to necessarily trade those picks to land another star.

 
Capella said:
The warriors and the cavs? 

Ainge has done a great job. Superb. The criticism is that people automatically assume the top-4 pick will be better than George or Butler, who are already top-15 or 20 players in the league. That's laughable. That pick has a very slim chance of being that good. 
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The Patriots consistently trade draft picks for proven talent.  It's odd that there aren't more professional teams (in any sport) that realize how vital this has been to their long term success.  I don't think they drafted until the mid 3rd round this year and traded away all of their original 2017 draft picks in some capacity.

 
sjslacker said:
A bit late to this but Zaza's play, intentional or not, was completely reckless and dangerous.  Hopefully Kawhi can return soon.  I thought the Warriors would roll the Spurs but they were playing great before Kawhi re-injured his ankle.  

All that said, Dubs in 3.
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I assure you the Warriors were not going to roll the Spurs with a healthy Leonard.

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
Seems laughable that people want to criticize Ainge and the Celtics. They were in the Conference finals in 2012 with an aging, declining team. He has them back in the conference finals in 2017 despite only utilizing one of the three #1 picks he got for trading Pierce and Garnett. Brown is just starting to show his potential and looked great last night. They are sitting on a top 4 pick and I would be happy if they land any of the top 4 players. They can go after a max free agent if they so choose.  They also owns the Nets pick next year. What other team is in better shape? 
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Minnesota

 
Boston said:
I really don't understand this post...right now this season is mission accomplished...#1 seed, conference finals, the Nets with the worst record in the NBA and all their assets in-place to have a big offseason...Ainge's plan has been dead-on...he has not dealt his assets for a little short-term gain and it has not hurt them...he has taken the long-view and right now they are set-up to have an offseason where they can get into that top-tier of teams and stay their long term (remember they have the Nets pick next year as well as multiple # 1's from other teams in the years to come)...I have felt for sometime that this offseason will be the one where we start to find out whether they will be able to go head-to-head with teams like the Cavs and Warriors...right now I am very optimistic Ainge will be able to do that...
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well that is good. was honestly just asking. I am guessing this is the optimistic view of just being happy to be there, but i wonder if Butler would have made it so a championship was possible this year

 
wilked said:
Cavs are a 2 seed going up against the 1 seed 

so far adding Butler could not have helped the Celtics. He couldn't have helped them get a better seed in the playoffs. they have won without him and they have the most figurative ping pong balls tomorrow.

Point is Ainge has already been proven correct. Are you trading Fultz+ for Butler right now? 
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just want to remind Celtics fans that this is simply not accurate. Sixers actually have more potential ping pong balls with the Kings swap 

 
the moops said:
This is a fun exercise, but it totally depends on what the timeframe is.

For the next few years, I would agree with all three of those. And it is nearly impossible to look much further down the road, but the Celts really are set up nicely to compete for the next decade
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I would argue you can't even go more than 3 years. Things change so fast.  Injuries, bad contracts, trades, coaches move, players hit the wall before expected, GMs fired. Look at the Blazers a few years ago. Brandon Roy was a star in the making with Oden coming in. 

 
Moe. said:
You have to consider Crowder's very team-friendly contract too. Looks like a misprint it's so low.
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:goodposting:

I think the only reason Crowder didn't get moved before the trade deadline was due to his contract.  It's funny to me how close the players are on this team and how much they publicly support Amir Johnson when he's making $12 mil per year and guys like Jae Crowder and IT are below $7 million. 

As it is, if Crowder doesn't get moved in the off season, I thoroughly expect him to be moved to the #1 or even #2 off the bench next season depending on game to game match-ups.

 
the moops said:
Is this correct though?

BOS has 250 lottery balls. PHI has 119. SAC has 28.

What am I missing?
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i knew as soon as i typed that i should have actually looked up the exact numbers.

Either way, i still argue Boston is here because they are got some luck (was skill too, but Nets falling off to ensure 1st pick was not predictable), Sixers are in this situation because of skill (albeit one the team decided to shove out the door because the NBA wasn't happy with them)

 
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modogg said:
i knew as soon as i typed that i should have actually looked up the exact numbers.

Either way, i still argue Boston is here because they are got some luck (was skill too, but Nets falling off to ensure 1st pick was not predictable), Sixers are in this situation because of skill (albeit one the team decided to shove out the door because the NBA wasn't happy with them)
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Boston and Philly got the assets they have in the exact same way-finding the stupidest GM in the room and ripping him off. 

 
modogg said:
i knew as soon as i typed that i should have actually looked up the exact numbers.

Either way, i still argue Boston is here because they are got some luck (was skill too, but Nets falling off to ensure 1st pick was not predictable), Sixers are in this situation because of skill (albeit one the team decided to shove out the door because the NBA wasn't happy with them)
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Confused by what you mean by skill...when the C's made the Nets trade it was very obvious the Nets were all in on the short-term...the C's have cashed in in a big way because the Nets are a complete train-wreck but I don't think anyone saw them being a team built for the long haul...the C's have gone a different direction than the Sixers (and yes the Nets picks have contributed to being able to do that)...Ainge made shrewd deals that brought in players like Crowder and IT and has done a solid job drafting with his own picks or those acquired outside of the Nets deal (Olynk, Bradley, Rozier, Smart...and possibly the two Euro stashes)...the fact they did not have to full-on tank made them attractive to a quality free agent like Horford and hopefully will be the case for another one like Hayward...and also he should get huge credit for hiring Stevens because at the time it was considered somewhat of an out-of-the-box hire...there is always a little bit of luck building a winner (like getting Draymond Green in the second or Kawhi that low in the first) but Ainge put the Celtics in a position to take advantage of it and hopefully after this offseason they take it to the next level...

 
modogg said:
i knew as soon as i typed that i should have actually looked up the exact numbers.

Either way, i still argue Boston is here because they are got some luck (was skill too, but Nets falling off to ensure 1st pick was not predictable), Sixers are in this situation because of skill (albeit one the team decided to shove out the door because the NBA wasn't happy with them)
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if the sixers end up utilizing the pick swap, it will be tremendously lucky.

 
Boston said:
Confused by what you mean by skill...when the C's made the Nets trade it was very obvious the Nets were all in on the short-term...the C's have cashed in in a big way because the Nets are a complete train-wreck but I don't think anyone saw them being a team built for the long haul...the C's have gone a different direction than the Sixers (and yes the Nets picks have contributed to being able to do that)...Ainge made shrewd deals that brought in players like Crowder and IT and has done a solid job drafting with his own picks or those acquired outside of the Nets deal (Olynk, Bradley, Rozier, Smart...and possibly the two Euro stashes)...the fact they did not have to full-on tank made them attractive to a quality free agent like Horford and hopefully will be the case for another one like Hayward...and also he should get huge credit for hiring Stevens because at the time it was considered somewhat of an out-of-the-box hire...there is always a little bit of luck building a winner (like getting Draymond Green in the second or Kawhi that low in the first) but Ainge put the Celtics in a position to take advantage of it and hopefully after this offseason they take it to the next level...
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ahh maybe i got too much piss and vinegar in me today. i think i still get grumpy with the PR machine Boston used last draft with Noel rumors that worked well enough to pain Boston as making good deals and led the idea that Colangelo was a bozo. Either way, good luck to you guys in the playoffs, bad luck to you guys tonight with the lottery picks  :D

 
Long Ball Larry said:
if the sixers end up utilizing the pick swap, it will be tremendously lucky.
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kind of. Hinkie took advantage of that Kings orgnanization in such a way that it was masterful. He knew they were dysfunctional and no way they would all of a sudden be great. Throwing in pick swaps in that trade along with next years 1st rounder was just wise thinking.

 
modogg said:
i knew as soon as i typed that i should have actually looked up the exact numbers.

Either way, i still argue Boston is here because they are got some luck (was skill too, but Nets falling off to ensure 1st pick was not predictable), Sixers are in this situation because of skill (albeit one the team decided to shove out the door because the NBA wasn't happy with them)
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Agreed, Sixers are in this situation because of significant lack of skill

27-55 (#2 pick)

34-48 (#11 pick)

19-63 (#3 pick)

18-64 (#3 pick)

10-72 (#1 pick)

28-54 TBD

a 6 year run of 136-353 is not to be trifled with

 
wilked said:
Agreed, Sixers are in this situation because of significant lack of skill

27-55 (#2 pick)

34-48 (#11 pick)

19-63 (#3 pick)

18-64 (#3 pick)

10-72 (#1 pick)

28-54 TBD

a 6 year run of 136-353 is not to be trifled with
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:no:   let's cancel that 10-72. that was abysmal. 19-63 they traded for that higher pick.

and 1st 2 years of this list are truly  :bag:  they were the suckers those years and abysmal.  Thanks Obama

 
modogg said:
ahh maybe i got too much piss and vinegar in me today. i think i still get grumpy with the PR machine Boston used last draft with Noel rumors that worked well enough to pain Boston as making good deals and led the idea that Colangelo was a bozo. Either way, good luck to you guys in the playoffs, bad luck to you guys tonight with the lottery picks  :D
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If past history with the lottery is any indicator (Tim Duncan is not walking thru that door) the ping pong balls will not be kind...the good news is it can't go lower than four and in this draft that is still a great spot...

 
Until they end up with 4 and Ball is sitting there and his dad says he won't sign with the Celtics because his son is better than IT and won't come off the bench behind him. I am halfway kidding, but that family is crazy enough to pull a stunt like that. 

 
ShamrockPride said:
So over/under a 20 point win tonight for the Warriors without facing Kawhi?
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I would never sleep on a Spurs team.  If any coach can devise a game plan to make this game competitive, it's Popovich. Simmons has developed into a nice player that should play most of the game.  Ginobili is going to probably play 30.  Their big lineup is still a difficult matchup for GS.  The biggest problem the Spurs now face is they are down to Mills and Murray as PG.  The Spurs half court defense is good enough to slow down GS offense, but no team can adequately stop GS in transition after a live ball turnover.  That's when GS made their big run because the Spurs were terrible taking care of the ball.

I think the Spurs have to drastically reduce the number of possessions this game and hope to win a 90-89 type slugfest.  Honestly, there's no reason they aren't capable of doing that.

 
Kraft... said:
I watch most regular season games on the local cable network, is it me or do the national channels really suck at replays? I feel like the local channel squeezes in a lot, sometimes multiple angles of out of bounds plays etc. Your lucky if the national channels give you one, I'm often waiting for a replay and it never comes. WTF  :angry:
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Continued last night, lets not show a replay of that close out of bounds play lets play a 3 pointer from two possessions ago <_<  

 
Celtics GM embarrassed to be in same room with all these losers 

Sam Hinkie's wife asks him to stop guessing TRUST THE PROCESS for every Wheel of Fortune answer 

Sam Hinkie can't stop playing Adele today

"Uhhh we're good!" Celtics GM awkwardly blurts out during lottery intro 

lots of thread titles. Love lottery day. 

 
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tjnc09 said:
I would never sleep on a Spurs team.  If any coach can devise a game plan to make this game competitive, it's Popovich. Simmons has developed into a nice player that should play most of the game.  Ginobili is going to probably play 30.  Their big lineup is still a difficult matchup for GS.  The biggest problem the Spurs now face is they are down to Mills and Murray as PG.  The Spurs half court defense is good enough to slow down GS offense, but no team can adequately stop GS in transition after a live ball turnover.  That's when GS made their big run because the Spurs were terrible taking care of the ball.

I think the Spurs have to drastically reduce the number of possessions this game and hope to win a 90-89 type slugfest.  Honestly, there's no reason they aren't capable of doing that.
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One reason might be that the other team has Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green.

 
rascal said:
Forgot how stupid the nets are/were 
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The thing I chuckle about is 99.9% of NBA trades have lottery protection...it is almost standard issue nowadays...yet the Nets gave up four #1's (or right to swap) without any protection...the Nets got knocked up good by the C's...

 
I assume everyone read Ramona Shelburne's article yesterday on the Ball family. If not it is definitely worth your time. I am starting to come around on LaVar. It will be awesome if Lonzo ends up on the Lakers 

 
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Boston said:
The thing I chuckle about is 99.9% of NBA trades have lottery protection...it is almost standard issue nowadays...yet the Nets gave up four #1's (or right to swap) without any protection...the Nets got knocked up good by the C's...
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And likewise if C's can't come up with at least 1 title from all this, they are as big a joke.

 
ShamrockPride said:
And likewise if C's can't come up with at least 1 title from all this, they are as big a joke.
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I would be more bold and say if they don't get at least two titles in the next five years  - they are a joke 

 
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