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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)

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ish Smith is well on his way towards the Hall by virtue of the 9 extra wins he got the sixers last year.

 
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Bruce Dickinson said:
How many 7-time (or greater) All-Stars weren't that good?  I could see that argument for an appearance here or there, but McHale was never voted in by the fans yet still made the All-Star team 7 times.  

I didn't say he wasn't that good or that he wasn't a HOFer, we were comparing him to Melo, another likely HOFer.

How strong is the correlation between MVP voting and All-NBA voting?

Smaller than the correlation between All-NBA and MVP voting, which is what I was referring to.

Would you say passing is an asset in Carmelo Anthony's game?

No, but you know that wasn't my point.

Well, you're making a compelling argument that you never saw McHale play.  Which years were the ones he played a lot of center? 

Picking a year at random, in 83-84 Parish played all but 1069 minutes. Basketball Reference lists nobody other than Parish, Bird, and McHale as 6'8" or less and either a SF or smaller, other than Greg Kite who played fewer than 200 minutes (and 38 playoff minutes). Maybe I over stated it by saying "a good amount at center," but you are making it seem like he never played the position.

OK, now you're full-on shtick.  McHale didn't have as much competition for All-NBA at forward?  I think you need to stop making any judgment calls about eras you didn't personally observe.

A little shtick, nothing gets somebody more mad than saying their generation was inferior. But, I don't think it is a knock on Melo that he's had a tough time making All-NBA 1st and 2nd teams when Duncan made every All-NBA team for the first 7 years of Melo's career, Lebron has made an All-NBA team every year but their rookie year, Durant has made 6 All-NBA teams (kind of coinciding with Duncan's decline), Dirk made All-NBA Melo's first 9 years, and Garnett made 4 out of 5 of Melo's first years. Those guys are all better players than either Melo or McHale. Melo has really been competing with Pau, Pierce, and Griffin for the scraps.

McHale had Erving at the beginning of his career, Bird throughout his career, Barkley, Malone, and Wilkins at the end of his career. He was mostly fighting for All-NBA selections with English, Cummings, and Bernard King. By the time they introduced a third team, McHale had broken his foot and was on the decline.

I would take the top end combination of Lebron, Duncan, Durant, Dirk and Garnett over Erving, Bird, Barkley, Malone, and Wilkins. I would also take the next tier of  Pierce, Gasol, Griffin and Melo over English, Cummings, King, and McHale.

If you're going to ding McHale's edge in WS because his teams won a lot, then you also need to ding Melo's edge in PER since that's so driven by Usage.  A PER of 20.0 is amazing for a Usage in the low 20s.  A PER of 21.1 with a Usage over 30 is an underachievement who left a lot of wins on the table.

I don't disagree with the first two sentences, I was just pointing out that not all the advanced statistics are pointing in McHale's direction. I said McHale was the more efficient scorer. I also pointed out that playing 60% of games as a 6th man was also very advantageous for him. Playing with Larry Bird, Robert Parish, Bill Walton, and Dennis Johnson was also helpful. I'm willing to bet I could count on a single hand how many times Melo has had an All-Star playing with him (Billups x2, Iverson x2, Amare x1) and only twice with an All-NBA player (Billups in 08-09, Amare for 20 something games in 10-11). McHale played with 4 other HOFers in 85-86 alone, and spent nearly his entire career with two other front court HOFers. I'm sure Melo would look much more efficient if he was brought up in that environment, and McHale would have looked much less efficient if he was playing next to a gimpy Amare or Nene or K-Mart.

That's an odd conclusion to make given you said McHale wasn't a standout.   
Somebody (Boston, I think) was making the point that McHale was a better player in every way than Melo. My point was that it was not true, McHale was a terrific scorer and an all-time defender, but there wasn't much to the rest of his game.
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Craig_MiamiFL said:
:goodposting:

The National Basketball Players Association will fund health insurance for all retired NBA players with at least three years of service in the NBA.
The vote was unanimous and this becomes the first of its kind in North American professional sports. "The game has never before been more popular, and all the players in our league today recognize that we’re only in this position because of the hard work and dedication of the men who came before us," NBPA President Chris Paul said. "It’s important that we take care of our entire extended NBA family, and I’m proud of my fellow players for taking this unprecedented step to ensure the health and well-being of our predecessors."

 
 
Source: NBPA.com


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RIP NBA

 
Just Win Baby said:
I don't really care about BR's method. If Amare Stoudemire is a HOFer, the HOF is a joke. Period.
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How many players with 5 first and second team All-NBA selections haven't made the playoffs?

Eye-balling the list, everybody with 6 or more is either in the Hall, or will be going. I think Hill might be the only other guy that might not make it with 5 first and second team All-NBA selections. A couple other guys that have 5 All-NBA selections with a smattering of 3rd team selections included might not make it (Kevin Johnson, Ben Wallace, Tim Hardaway).

 
Kev4029 said:
How many players with 5 first and second team All-NBA selections haven't made the playoffs?

Eye-balling the list, everybody with 6 or more is either in the Hall, or will be going. I think Hill might be the only other guy that might not make it with 5 first and second team All-NBA selections.
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Grant Hill is for sure getting into the HOF.

 
Kev4029 said:
I didn't say he wasn't that good or that he wasn't a HOFer, we were comparing him to Melo, another likely HOFer.
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You said McHale wasn't a standout.  How many people describe how many HOFers that way?

Kev4029 said:
How strong is the correlation between MVP voting and All-NBA voting?

Smaller than the correlation between All-NBA and MVP voting, which is what I was referring to.
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Dizzying intellect on display here.

Kev4029 said:
Picking a year at random,
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X

Kev4029 said:
 Maybe I over stated it by saying "a good amount at center," but you are making it seem like he never played the position.
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He rarely did.  On the defensive end, he played a lot more SF than C.  In those Lakers/Celtics Finals, McHale primarily guarded Worthy.  When McHale was on the floor, he was usually the third man in for defensive rebounds.  

You are also way overselling the "sixth man" stuff.  McHale played starter minutes and was almost always on the court in the last 6-8 minutes of the game.    

Not gonna quote the elite players of era stuff, just will reiterate my position that you should stop making judgement calls about eras you didn't personally observe.  Your eye for the current era is really good.  Before that?  Not so much.  

McHale stayed efficient regardless of teammates.  He was 18.4 PPG on .553 shooting with Reggie Lewis, Brian Shaw, and Kevin Gamble in the starting lineup.  And that was in the one-footed part of his career.  

Kev4029 said:
Somebody (Boston, I think) was making the point that McHale was a better player in every way than Melo. My point was that it was not true, McHale was a terrific scorer and an all-time defender, but there wasn't much to the rest of his game.
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So other than being great at both ends of the floor, he wasn't an all-around player?  You charged up the wrong mountain about McHale the rebounder, but that was because you didn't understand how his team actually used him.  We didn't discuss how adept he was at drawing fouls and converting free throws.  He was an all-time defender who guarded multiple positions well, was an excellent shot-blocker despite not having the luxury of hanging around the rim all the time and waiting for shooters to approach, and was asked to play out of position a lot.  He wasn't much of a three-point shooter but he played in an era when hardly anybody shot them.  The only major skill knock on McHale's game that sticks was that he wasn't a good passer, but neither is the guy we're comparing him to.  

Stick with analyzing players you actually see play.  You have a good eye for players you actually see play.    

 
I've really warmed to McHale over the years.  I was initially down on him as riding Bird's coattails, but he was truly a great player on both ends.  He is noticeably better than Melo.

 
i honestly think mchale is one of the best post move players ever the guy could go either way left right and was good facing up or back to the basket hell for a while a lot of hs teams called certain sets the mchale etc because of it i do not remember him being a bad passer i just do not i guess maybe he did not pass it out a lot but if youhave a billion million post moves and can get your shot whenever and that is what the play was then why would you pass i dont know that is just how i remember it take that to the bank bromigos 

 
Any good under the radar basketball podcasts that people are listening too?  I'm all in on the Lowe Post and Dunc'd On. I have a bunch of other ones that I'll download on an episode by episode basis if they are addressing interesting topics or have a good guest, but don't really love them (Starters, Locked On NBA, Real GM Radio, the Ringer NBA). 

 
thecatch said:
Any good under the radar basketball podcasts that people are listening too?  I'm all in on the Lowe Post and Dunc'd On. I have a bunch of other ones that I'll download on an episode by episode basis if they are addressing interesting topics or have a good guest, but don't really love them (Starters, Locked On NBA, Real GM Radio, the Ringer NBA). 
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Frosty, SWC and I have one called Beer, Cheese and Basketball, Brohans.  Check it out.

 
thecatch said:
Any good under the radar basketball podcasts that people are listening too?  I'm all in on the Lowe Post and Dunc'd On. I have a bunch of other ones that I'll download on an episode by episode basis if they are addressing interesting topics or have a good guest, but don't really love them (Starters, Locked On NBA, Real GM Radio, the Ringer NBA). 
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A to Z is not bad, though I don't listen all the time.

https://soundcloud.com/nba-a-to-z

And of course, In All Airness: http://inallairness.com/podcast/

(actually I've never listened to one of the latter, but I guess they are on a journey to break down like every single game and minute of MJ's career)

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
McHale stayed efficient regardless of teammates.  He was 18.4 PPG on .553 shooting with Reggie Lewis, Brian Shaw, and Kevin Gamble in the starting lineup.  And that was in the one-footed part of his career.  
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Reggie Lewis might have ended up in the HOF but for the heart condition he was on the way up.  Add Larry Bird and Robert Parish and he played with some real talent on that team.  Still better than any team Melo has played with.  And although not a great player Kevin Gamble scored 15.6ppg on .587 shooting that season not all that far off of what McHale was doing.

 
Niles Standish said:
Reggie Lewis might have ended up in the HOF but for the heart condition he was on the way up.  Add Larry Bird and Robert Parish and he played with some real talent on that team.  Still better than any team Melo has played with.  And although not a great player Kevin Gamble scored 15.6ppg on .587 shooting that season not all that far off of what McHale was doing.
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So Kevin McHale was just a slightly better Kevin Gamble.  Check.

 
coyote5 said:
So Kevin McHale was just a slightly better Kevin Gamble.  Check.
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everyone knows that has always been the knock against mchale everyone always says he would have been one of the best except that he always benefitted from playing with kevin gamble its like on every website ever brohan take that to the bank 

 
Niles Standish said:
Reggie Lewis might have ended up in the HOF but for the heart condition he was on the way up.  Add Larry Bird and Robert Parish and he played with some real talent on that team.  Still better than any team Melo has played with.  And although not a great player Kevin Gamble scored 15.6ppg on .587 shooting that season not all that far off of what McHale was doing.
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coyote5 said:
So Kevin McHale was just a slightly better Kevin Gamble.  Check.
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Niles Standish said:
You're better than that.
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Hey man, we all can't be Kevin Gambleses  :shrug: :sadbanana: :kicksrock:

 
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