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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)

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Juxtatarot said:
Why do you think it's more favorable to the Bulls than the Bucks?
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Bull are now 6-1 in April, Bucks are 3-4 even after the Game 1 win. Plus it apparently thinks the Raptors are better than the Celtics (which they might be, the Raptors have the better point differential over the whole season and the better record since the ASB despite losing Lowry), which means it thinks the Raptors are a better bet to come back and win the series than the Celtics.

Again, I think it's all mostly useless because you can't quantify how much teams have been resting both by sitting players and by taking their foot off the gas in March and April. But one thing it's good for is reminding people that the seeds aren't always a useful a sign of team strength. People see 8 over 1 and assume it would be a massive upset while 5 over 4 would barely raise an eyebrow, but in the east the 4 seed has been better than the 1 seed in both record and point differential since Thanksgiving.  And the Bulls were only two games worse than the Hawks over the season and had a better point differential by a fairly decent margin.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I don't understand why you use the word "yet" here.  I think the two are connected.  Because he is the strongest player he has to oversell contact- if people bounce off you or don't impede your progress or shooting motion you're less likely to get calls.

And it's not like he gets more calls than other players with similar usage rates or FG attempt rate.  Here's the list of FT attempts/FG attempts this season. His number is not remarkable considering how much the ball is in his hands even when not shooting, and how often he attacks the basket, and the fact that he's not a particularly good FT shooter so you'd think he'd get some hard fouls to prevent easy buckets in there.  The two SFs ranked nearest to him are Gordon Hayward and Kawhi Leonard, both all-stars, and nobody's compiling youtube videos of their flops.

From a broader standpoint, I don't understand why this stuff bothers fans. I can see why it would annoy players, or fans when someone sells a call that hurts their team.  But athletes in every sport do subtle things to try to influence officiating. Catchers frame pitches off the plate and hitters jump out of the way of inside pitches nowhere near them. WRs flail their arms around on overthrows and beg for PI calls. Hockey players dive. Football and basketball players overreact to after- the-whistle contact to try to draw flagrant fouls and ejections. It's all the same basic thing, and everyone does it.
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For the first bolded part, and here I have to admit my state of being a casual fan, I don't remember Shaq doing this.  He was fouled constantly but it wasn't called every time.  That's basketball.  I'm sure Shaq pouted for calls, but I can't imagine him rolling on the ground holding his neck when nothing above his chest was touched.  Maybe someone can find some footage to prove me wrong.  I'd be fine with that. 

As for the second part, here's where I share my bias.  I'm a youth coach, and it is important to me to try to teach kids to play the game the right way.  Yelling "and one!" as they shoot a layup, or bark at officials for calls, or "flop" are not the right way for kids to play the game (in my opinion, but if someone disagrees with me,  :rolleyes:  ).  I'm swimming upstream trying to teach kids not to mimic pros, but this is what they see, so they think they should.  It's not good for the game.  They think it is necessary to be successful?  Fine, but I disagree.

As far as your examples to other sports, good catches don't frame pitches clearly out of the strike zone, they frame pitches on the borderline (you will see youth catchers make big sweeping movements with their arm bring a ball two feet out of the strike zone right into the middle of the plate. That's the wrong way to frame a pitch, but is what Lebron is doing when he flops to no contact).  Yes, WR flail their arms to get calls, but they are fighting through contact.  I can't think of one, again, will admit I'm wrong, if you can show me some clips of receivers flailing their arms when there is zero contact.

 
Bull Dozier said:
For the first bolded part, and here I have to admit my state of being a casual fan, I don't remember Shaq doing this.  He was fouled constantly but it wasn't called every time.  That's basketball.  I'm sure Shaq pouted for calls, but I can't imagine him rolling on the ground holding his neck when nothing above his chest was touched.  Maybe someone can find some footage to prove me wrong.  I'd be fine with that. 

As for the second part, here's where I share my bias.  I'm a youth coach, and it is important to me to try to teach kids to play the game the right way.  Yelling "and one!" as they shoot a layup, or bark at officials for calls, or "flop" are not the right way for kids to play the game (in my opinion, but if someone disagrees with me,  :rolleyes:  ).  I'm swimming upstream trying to teach kids not to mimic pros, but this is what they see, so they think they should.  It's not good for the game.  They think it is necessary to be successful?  Fine, but I disagree.

As far as your examples to other sports, good catches don't frame pitches clearly out of the strike zone, they frame pitches on the borderline (you will see youth catchers make big sweeping movements with their arm bring a ball two feet out of the strike zone right into the middle of the plate. That's the wrong way to frame a pitch, but is what Lebron is doing when he flops to no contact).  Yes, WR flail their arms to get calls, but they are fighting through contact.  I can't think of one, again, will admit I'm wrong, if you can show me some clips of receivers flailing their arms when there is zero contact.
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Sounds like you just don't like LeBron. 

 
Bull Dozier said:
For the first bolded part, and here I have to admit my state of being a casual fan, I don't remember Shaq doing this.  He was fouled constantly but it wasn't called every time.  That's basketball.  I'm sure Shaq pouted for calls, but I can't imagine him rolling on the ground holding his neck when nothing above his chest was touched.  Maybe someone can find some footage to prove me wrong.  I'd be fine with that. 

As for the second part, here's where I share my bias.  I'm a youth coach, and it is important to me to try to teach kids to play the game the right way.  Yelling "and one!" as they shoot a layup, or bark at officials for calls, or "flop" are not the right way for kids to play the game (in my opinion, but if someone disagrees with me,  :rolleyes:  ).  I'm swimming upstream trying to teach kids not to mimic pros, but this is what they see, so they think they should.  It's not good for the game.  They think it is necessary to be successful?  Fine, but I disagree.

As far as your examples to other sports, good catches don't frame pitches clearly out of the strike zone, they frame pitches on the borderline (you will see youth catchers make big sweeping movements with their arm bring a ball two feet out of the strike zone right into the middle of the plate. That's the wrong way to frame a pitch, but is what Lebron is doing when he flops to no contact).  Yes, WR flail their arms to get calls, but they are fighting through contact.  I can't think of one, again, will admit I'm wrong, if you can show me some clips of receivers flailing their arms when there is zero contact.
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I don't really recall LeBron doing what you accuse him of doing.  Exaggerating contact yes, but not faking it where there was none. 

As for what is the "right" way to play the game or the most enjoyable thing to see, that's obviously subjective. Flopping doesn't bother me as long as the refs don't fall for it too much, and I don't think they do, but YMMV and that's fine. And I agree that the constant barking at the reps is annoying, although that's really a different subject.

I do, however, think that LeBron isn't an egregious case.  He just has a microscope on his because he's LeBron. I'm sure if someone wanted to they could compile similar videos and a couple examples that look particularly bad for any high-usage player.  Steph Curry actually got fined for a flop in the Western Conference Finals. Westbrook's gotten a warning plus google immediately pointed me to this clip, which has a couple bad ones from him (plus a chick with a nice rack hosting the video). Everyone does it.  Except John Wall, of course, who is a perfect angel.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I don't really recall LeBron doing what you accuse him of doing.  Exaggerating contact yes, but not faking it where there was none. 

As for what is the "right" way to play the game or the most enjoyable thing to see, that's obviously subjective. Flopping doesn't bother me as long as the refs don't fall for it too much, and I don't think they do, but YMMV and that's fine. And I agree that the constant barking at the reps is annoying, although that's really a different subject.

I do, however, think that LeBron isn't an egregious case.  He just has a microscope on his because he's LeBron. I'm sure if someone wanted to they could compile similar videos and a couple examples that look particularly bad for any high-usage player.  Steph Curry actually got fined for a flop in the Western Conference Finals. Westbrook's gotten a warning plus google immediately pointed me to this clip, which has a couple bad ones from him (plus a chick with a nice rack hosting the video). Everyone does it.  Except John Wall, of course, who is a perfect angel.
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There were at least two examples in the youtube clip of his "highlights" posted yesterday where he fell to zero contact,

As far as Lebron being the worst, or only one, I never claimed that.  I did claim his flopping annoys me more.  But no, he's not the only one.  I don't like him, Weebs is right, but it is because of more than just the flopping.  Yes, others flop, probably most if not all of the stars.  I do like Curry, and he flops, and it drives me nuts.  It has bled down to college, and high school ball, and its sad to me.  My high school made the state tournament last year.  I loved to go watch them play, but the point guard did the Harden-esqe head jerk anytime someone laid a finger on him, drove me nuts and made me wish he'd try harder to dribble through the arm instead of trying to get a foul call, but whatever.  It's here to stay for now unless the NBA decides they are going to review games and level serious fines, or make them miss post season games.

 
Bull Dozier said:
There were at least two examples in the youtube clip of his "highlights" posted yesterday where he fell to zero contact,

As far as Lebron being the worst, or only one, I never claimed that.  I did claim his flopping annoys me more.  But no, he's not the only one.  I don't like him, Weebs is right, but it is because of more than just the flopping.  Yes, others flop, probably most if not all of the stars.  I do like Curry, and he flops, and it drives me nuts.  It has bled down to college, and high school ball, and its sad to me.  My high school made the state tournament last year.  I loved to go watch them play, but the point guard did the Harden-esqe head jerk anytime someone laid a finger on him, drove me nuts and made me wish he'd try harder to dribble through the arm instead of trying to get a foul call, but whatever.  It's here to stay for now unless the NBA decides they are going to review games and level serious fines, or make them miss post season games.




 
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Lol at bled down to college, hello Duke. If anything it went up to the NBA.

 
Charlie Harper said:
Vince is the greatest dunker of all time. HoF lock.
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you wont say that when anteaternintendo does finally dunk a three pointer like sportsfan said brohan take that to the bank

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
. Really good game from Rondo game 1. Just terrific creating off picks and finding guys for wide open shots.
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And an even better game 2. Phenomenal performance. 11-9-14-5. Exactly type of play Bulls have needed for years....from an actual PG. 

Portis Game 1. Zipser Game 2. Bench stepping up.

 
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From what I read, lotto only for the first 3.  The odds listed from 6-9 are based on the 1-3 getting leapfrogged. 

 
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Bucks-Raptors on NBATV is a travesty.  That series should be getting the showcase treatment.  I know why it's not, and I know there's no chance it ever would, but what a treat.  Giannis is jumping to ludicrous speed.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Bucks-Raptors on NBATV is a travesty.  That series should be getting the showcase treatment.  I know why it's not, and I know there's no chance it ever would, but what a treat.  Giannis is jumping to ludicrous speed.
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Watched a lot of it last night. Great matchup, hope it goes to 7 and you can take that to the bank bromigo

 
Capella said:
Watched a lot of it last night. Great matchup, hope it goes to 7 and you can take that to the bank bromigo
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Yeah...watching Giannis is just flat out fun at this point.  He's the closest thing to Gumby with the way he moves that I've ever seen.  His body parts are at angles that just don't seem natural.  

That being said, he has to get a shot off against Lowry there.  

 
TobiasFunke said:
Lakers and the Celtics had each other, and the Bulls really only had 2-3 seasons when they were a favorite at anywhere near the level of these Warriors.  They played a ton of Game 6s.  The Warriors could easily go 4-4-4-4 this year if they care to do so.  

I continue to think people are underestimating this team. They have four of the best 15 players in the league, including probably two of the top 3. They were the winningest team in NBA history last year and they added Kevin ####### Durant. I can't think of anything remotely close to this in any American team sport.
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With everything you said though is the largest expectation that they Should win. That fear of failure may get to them in the Spurs or Cavs series.

 
Juxtatarot said:
I'm saying it's why they won't sweep the Celtics. 
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I don't think anyone is.  They are however a vastly different team post-OKC trade.  Without Gibson, they now almost exclusively play a stretch 4.  That matters as teams now have to guard 3 guys truthfully all the time.  That opens up space for a Lopez PnR since Lopez is good at rolling hard to the rim.  They are much harder to guard now and this doesn't even touch on the fact that they are just now incorporating Wade.     

 
What makes the Celtics a good team this season is their pool of talent and solid coaching by Stevens. What elevated the Celtics to being a great team this year was the swag and confidence that their floor general Thomas infused into them.   While Thomas is still putting up numbers in this Bulls series--he is clearly and understandably not playing with the same confidence and swag.  Thomas is uncharacteristically turning the ball over in brain fart fashion and he missed SIX free throws last night.  He's clearly playing without full focus---and  who can really blame him?     

On the Bulls side of things--let's not forget that the 5 seed and the 8 seed were separated by two games.   Lets also not forget that the one seed only won 53 games this season--so the gap between this 1 seed and this 8 seed is far tighter than it normally is.  Heck--look at the Western Conference and look at the gap between the Warriors and the Blazers.   The Bulls had to play smart and hard to work their way into the playoffs and are peaking at the right time--while the Celtics were dealt a tragedy that essentially drained that team of their confidence and swag.  I still would not be shocked to see the Celts wake up and win this thing in 7. With that being said--if the Bulls hang on to win this series--I'm still not willing to crown them as being the David that took down Goliath.   That's just not the case this season --with these two teams--under these circumstances. 

 
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jvdesigns2002 said:
What makes the Celtics a good team this season is their pool of talent and solid coaching by Stevens. What elevated the Celtics to being a great team this year was the swag and confidence that their floor general Thomas infused into them.   While Thomas is still putting up numbers in this Bulls series--he is clearly and understandably not playing with the same confidence and swag.  Thomas is uncharacteristically turning the ball over in brain fart fashion and he missed SIX free throws last night.  He's clearly playing without full focus---and  who can really blame him?     

On the Bulls side of things--let's not forget that the 5 seed and the 8 seed were separated by two games.   Lets also not forget that the one see only won 53 games this season--so the gap between this 1 seed and this 8 seed is far tighter than it normally is.  Heck--look at the Western Conference and look at the gap between the Warriors and the Blazers.   The Bulls had to play smart and hard to work their way into the playoffs and are peaking at the right time--while the Celtics were dealt a tragedy that essentially drained that team of their confidence and swag.  I still would not be shocked to see the Celts wake up and win this thing in 7. With that being said--if this Bulls hang on to win this series--I'm still not willing to crown them as being the David that took down Goliath.   That's just not the case this season --with these two teams--under these circumstances. 
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Unfortunately the C's are not built for playoff basketball yet...they have a few too many flaws that can be exposed although it has been far uglier than expected...hopefully they can right the ship because a third straight one-and-done puts a monkey on their back going forward...this team is trending upward but what Ainge does this offseason will go a long way towards whether they can go from being a good regular season team to a title contender as soon as next season... 

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
What makes the Celtics a good team this season is their pool of talent and solid coaching by Stevens. What elevated the Celtics to being a great team this year was the swag and confidence that their floor general Thomas infused into them.   While Thomas is still putting up numbers in this Bulls series--he is clearly and understandably not playing with the same confidence and swag.  Thomas is uncharacteristically turning the ball over in brain fart fashion and he missed SIX free throws last night.  He's clearly playing without full focus---and  who can really blame him?     

On the Bulls side of things--let's not forget that the 5 seed and the 8 seed were separated by two games.   Lets also not forget that the one seed only won 53 games this season--so the gap between this 1 seed and this 8 seed is far tighter than it normally is.  Heck--look at the Western Conference and look at the gap between the Warriors and the Blazers.   The Bulls had to play smart and hard to work their way into the playoffs and are peaking at the right time--while the Celtics were dealt a tragedy that essentially drained that team of their confidence and swag.  I still would not be shocked to see the Celts wake up and win this thing in 7. With that being said--if the Bulls hang on to win this series--I'm still not willing to crown them as being the David that took down Goliath.   That's just not the case this season --with these two teams--under these circumstances. 
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Yup.  Very unusual season in the East.  In fact the Cs arguably aren't any better than they were last year- they won more games but they had a significantly lower point differential.  It's just a weird year where everyone is bunched together except presumably the Cavs when they turn it on, and things just fell into place for them to claim the 1 seed. If the Cs lose the series I don't think many people would view it as an all-time great playoff upset.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Yup.  Very unusual season in the East.  In fact the Cs arguably aren't any better than they were last year- they won more games but they had a significantly lower point differential.  It's just a weird year where everyone is bunched together except presumably the Cavs when they turn it on, and things just fell into place for them to claim the 1 seed. If the Cs lose the series I don't think many people would view it as an all-time great playoff upset.
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Their expected win-loss according to Basketball Reference this year was 48-34. Last year it was 50-32. For what it is worth, the Bulls expected win-loss was 42-40.

 
bananafish said:
Man, Westbrook is painful to watch. Most oVerrated Player.
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He has been ugly in the 4th quarter, just jacking up bad shot after bad shot or forcing it and hoping for fouls that haven't been coming.  I know that this has been SOP for the Thunder this year, but how does this poor shot selection make them better?  More chances at offensive rebounds?

 
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Tobias, I know the Wiz won 3 of 4 in the regular season, but are you worried about the Bulls?  Rondo would seem to be a much tougher matchup than IT for Wall, and Butler is the 2nd best player in the series.  And he's good enough to win a game or two himself.  

Should be a great 2nd round matchup.  

 
I want to go with a "Westbrook shoots the Rockets into the second round" thread title but I really like this one. 

 
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