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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)
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Frostillicus
Footballguy
So we are complaining about an upcoming Finals match-up between two dynasties, one with the first player with an argument as the best of all-time since Jordan, and one with two of the five best players in the game, four of the best like 20, and an unselfishness and team-wide passing reminiscent of the era so many pine for? A 3-match where each team has one win, where each team can point to injuries or suspension as to why they lost, leading to an absolute showdown as to who is the best team of this era? Two teams that are so dominant that they both might be undefeated in the playoffs going into the finals? This is a bad thing?
In the future they'll be discussing this trilogy of Finals the same way people talk about the Lakers/Celtics era, and you dummies are whining about it.
In the future they'll be discussing this trilogy of Finals the same way people talk about the Lakers/Celtics era, and you dummies are whining about it.
Capella
Footballguy
x1000Fixed that for you. And if you think super-teams are going to go away after Lebron retires, you're crazy.
Boston
Footballguy
I mentioned it before...it is not so much they gave up the four #1's...it is the fact there was no lottery protection on any of them which I believe 99% of NBA trades have...it took this trade from being simply bad to horrific...it's like the Nets lawyer left out the addendum when filing the paperwork with the NBA...
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
Very interesting discussion in regards to the amount of parody in the NBA in regards to title contenders. There are definitely some good points being made in here. I think one of the keys is in regards to the actual nature of the sport of basketball--and then translating that into how it fits into the NBA playoff format.
Basketball is a sport where there essentially is no limit to how much a team can integrate one of their players into the game. With baseball--your best hitter is only up once per rotation. In football--your best offensive player is not on the field when the other team has the ball..etc. In basketball-your stud player can be involved in the majority of the plays in a given game. Because of this--more often than not--the better and more talented team in basketball will win most of the time. This dynamic alone leads to a lack of parody because there are 30+ teams--but there are not 30 truly elite players in the league at any given time. This factor partially helps explain why there are only something like 10 different teams that have won a championship in the last 20 years. Now if you add in the factor of having to win 4 games out of 7--this pushes that to a greater extreme. While any team in basketball could get really hot for a game or two--it's virtually impossible for a less talented team to outplay a far superior team 4 games out of 7.
With that being said--how do you solve the problem? One solution would be changing the NBA playoff format to best of 3 or best of 5 series. No way the NBA will do that because of the financial ramifications. Another possible solution could be to make the luxury tax far more severe in order to discourage excessive spending by the major contenders. The current luxury tax is not discouraging enough to team owners being that 18 teams are over the salary cap this year. This also puts players in a position to where if they want to join a super team--that the pay cut would be more than minor to moderate. The league could also consider severely punishing teams that under spend by taxing them heavily. This season--there is like 5-6 teams where the total salary is moderately less than the salary cap. There is not really any perfect answer to this issue--but adjusting the salary cap penalties could be something to consider.
Basketball is a sport where there essentially is no limit to how much a team can integrate one of their players into the game. With baseball--your best hitter is only up once per rotation. In football--your best offensive player is not on the field when the other team has the ball..etc. In basketball-your stud player can be involved in the majority of the plays in a given game. Because of this--more often than not--the better and more talented team in basketball will win most of the time. This dynamic alone leads to a lack of parody because there are 30+ teams--but there are not 30 truly elite players in the league at any given time. This factor partially helps explain why there are only something like 10 different teams that have won a championship in the last 20 years. Now if you add in the factor of having to win 4 games out of 7--this pushes that to a greater extreme. While any team in basketball could get really hot for a game or two--it's virtually impossible for a less talented team to outplay a far superior team 4 games out of 7.
With that being said--how do you solve the problem? One solution would be changing the NBA playoff format to best of 3 or best of 5 series. No way the NBA will do that because of the financial ramifications. Another possible solution could be to make the luxury tax far more severe in order to discourage excessive spending by the major contenders. The current luxury tax is not discouraging enough to team owners being that 18 teams are over the salary cap this year. This also puts players in a position to where if they want to join a super team--that the pay cut would be more than minor to moderate. The league could also consider severely punishing teams that under spend by taxing them heavily. This season--there is like 5-6 teams where the total salary is moderately less than the salary cap. There is not really any perfect answer to this issue--but adjusting the salary cap penalties could be something to consider.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I don't think anyone doubts that the final series itself will be great. It's the lead-up to it that sucks something awful.
He didn't say super teams were going to go away; the NBA has always had super teams. I think what he meant was that the two best teams being this much better than everybody else is an anomaly. And it is.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
This, I can't wait for the finals. At the same time I would like to see a Warriors vs Thunder from last year series, or Clippers vs Spurs a couple years back, Clipper vs Rockets. Even the Celtics vs. Wizards wasn't that great except game 6.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Weebs210
Footballguy
Maybe. All other teams from the west would be a good match up with Celtics though.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
It was a lot different. The Bulls had more of a challenge in the East (NY, IND, CLE, ORL), and they played 5 different opponents in 6 Finals appearances and lost 2 games in all of those series but one. Overall, both East and West were much more competitive than now.
Weebs210
Footballguy
Niles Standish
Footballguy
3 first round picks and 1 first round pick right to swap (at the time most people would have guessed those swap would be worthless since the Celts were a lot worse than the Nets). Not 4 1st round picks. Celtics also took on some of the Nets bad contracts in that deal.
Obviously in retrospect it looks like one of the worst trades in NBA history especially if any of the last 3 picks are hits (James Young looks like a bust). But the Nets were one of the favorites in the East when this trade happened and with Brook Lopez/Deron Williams both young and playing at allstar levels most of us would have guessed the Nets picks wouldn't be worth a whole lot. They definitely should have placed lottery protections. But Garnett, Lopez, Pierce, Johnson, Williams looked pretty dangerous at the time.
bananafish
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
The most ideal way would be to contract from 30 teams to, say, 24 teams, with a dispersal draft for the talent on the contracted teams, where the draft was set up to disproportionately benefit the remaining teams with poor records and/or lower payrolls. Then lower the number of playoff teams to 12.
But that will never happen. Sadly, the NBA is planning to expand by adding two more franchises, which will likely just result in further dilution of the quality of basketball and less parity.
bananafish
Footballguy
Yeah the trade at least made some sort of short-term sense when it happened. It's that everything that's transpired since has gone about as well for the Celts and as poorly for the Nets as possible which makes it appear like a fleecing in retrospect.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Nothing the league can do about the Warriors and Cavs having elite players, management, and owners willing to spend money. There is such a huge disparity because the rest of the league can't align all three.
No way Silver can fix that because it's on the owners to fix it and most of them are the problem.
Can they make the playoffs and regular season more exciting? I think so.
Simple playoff fix. Get rid of conferences and just seed 1-16. It should make for a few more interesting series.
If they want something crazier. Then they can have the 14 non playoff teams do a March Madness, one and done bracket for the Top 3 picks during the first round or two of the playoffs. To make things fair the games are played with the actual Vegas point spread. This will provide nightly drama when we have to watch the 1 vs 16, 2 vs 15, etc series. To prevent tanking between #16 and #17, the extra playoff revenue from the lottery playoffs will go to the playoff teams only. More games = more money!
Basically owners are greedy idiots. Only way to fix the disparity in the league is to make it do the idiot owners have an incentive to win and make more money.
No way Silver can fix that because it's on the owners to fix it and most of them are the problem.
Can they make the playoffs and regular season more exciting? I think so.
Simple playoff fix. Get rid of conferences and just seed 1-16. It should make for a few more interesting series.
If they want something crazier. Then they can have the 14 non playoff teams do a March Madness, one and done bracket for the Top 3 picks during the first round or two of the playoffs. To make things fair the games are played with the actual Vegas point spread. This will provide nightly drama when we have to watch the 1 vs 16, 2 vs 15, etc series. To prevent tanking between #16 and #17, the extra playoff revenue from the lottery playoffs will go to the playoff teams only. More games = more money!
Basically owners are greedy idiots. Only way to fix the disparity in the league is to make it do the idiot owners have an incentive to win and make more money.
Insein
Footballguy
I kind of like the lottery tourney idea. Don't know how they could work it into the union contract though.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Best idea I have seen to prevent tanking is having them draft somebody else's rights for the following year.
the moops
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
And it was about a lot more than basketball - if Jay Z & the Russian had talked LeBron into becoming the unofficial Mayor of Brooklyn (i hear James was pretty close to taking the hundreds of millions of ancillary dollars they were dangling before opting for Miami) for the SuperNets to open the Barclays with, that whole area was set to become NYC's new downtown. Plan B turned to be a horrible idea, but Prokhorov was down for a bunch more than the Nets' future in doing so.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Has the Elam Ending been discussed in here yet? It's a countermeasure to prevent all the end-of-game fouling in desperate comebacks.
Instead of playing the last 3 minutes with the clock, the winning score for the game will be established - seven more points than the leading team has at that moment. Possessions continue with shot clock, but no game clock. So if a team is up 91-83 with three minutes left, instead of watching the trailing team foul a bunch of times as the clock slowly rolls to zero, the first team to get to 98 wins. If it's 91-90, the game is still to 98 and would finish really close to what the final score would be.
The Elam Ending would eliminate end-of-game buzzer-beaters and overtimes, but would take away the incentive for teams to foul to stop the clock and extend the game.
Instead of playing the last 3 minutes with the clock, the winning score for the game will be established - seven more points than the leading team has at that moment. Possessions continue with shot clock, but no game clock. So if a team is up 91-83 with three minutes left, instead of watching the trailing team foul a bunch of times as the clock slowly rolls to zero, the first team to get to 98 wins. If it's 91-90, the game is still to 98 and would finish really close to what the final score would be.
The Elam Ending would eliminate end-of-game buzzer-beaters and overtimes, but would take away the incentive for teams to foul to stop the clock and extend the game.
Tau837
Footballguy
I think contracting would improve all of the major sports (NBA, NFL, MLB). Please elaborate on the "stacked" talent on this year's Nets, Kings, Lakers, Suns, Magic, Knicks, Hornets, Timberwolves, and Mavs. Now picture combining the talent on these teams into fewer teams, and how much better that would make them.The NBA is stacked with talent and you think contracting is the answer?
How long do you think it will take two new expansion franchises to become competitive? I mean, if the league is so "stacked," it probably shouldn't take long, right?
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
It would be an efficient way to build more superteams. But it does seem to cause more problems than it solves.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
The NBA's talent drain aint in the player sector - it's in GMs who understand compatibility of talents and, especially, coaches who not only have a vision of what to do with players but, more importantly, can get athletes who make 8 figs to sky & shoot to do what they need to win. Wiggy in Minny is the most talented player in his class, but there aint but 2-3 coaches in the game who could get him to stop eating his teammates space for no purpose every ####in play
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
sports_fan
Footballguy
Easiest way to balance the league would be to just play the game like normal but instead of the final score determining the winner do a coin flip. The winner of the coin flip gets credited for the win regardless of the score. Perfectly balanced
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I'd hate a best of 3 series--but I didn't dislike NBA playoff basketball when the first round was best of 5.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
When Jordan was retired the Bulls finished with the 3rd best record in the east. 2 games out of first. A questionable call caused them to lose to the Knicks in 7 games. The Knicks went to the finals that year. So they were certainly very close to the top team in the East without Jordan. The only team that you mentioned that is remembered as historically a very good team was Orlando who was together 2 years of the Jordan reign before Shaq moved to LA. The Knicks/Pacers/Cavs aren't much different than the Raptors/Celtics/Wizards.
The Bulls lost 15 total games in the east during their 6 championship seasons. That means they finished 60-15 in those series. Are you sure you're remembering those playoffs that well?
And if you count LeBron's last 6 finals he has played GS twice, SAS twice, Dallas, OKC. Not really that different finals-wise other than LeBron wasn't favorite in all of those.
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Weebs210
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You didn't fix it, you just added details I don't care about.
And I didn't say superteams were going away, I said the ridiculous setup this year where both conference playoffs were a foregone conclusion would go away. It's never been like this before and probably won't be like this again after 2019 or 2020. Until then it kinda sucks, but like I said if unpredictability is your thing there's another sport where two .500 teams with a bunch of players nobody in America has heard or or cares about are fighting for a spot in the Finals. Enjoy.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Except overtime wins are the same as regulation wins on the other side of the ledger, so you'd have to unpack that side also to get a truly accurate perspective.
I could have done that I guess, but I'm way too lazy. Thats the sort of thing weekday Tobias would do.
Insein
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I agree with most of what you say, but this isn't close at all with the exception of the Cavs. The Knicks and Pacers are both light years better than the Raptors/Celtics/Wizards. The Knicks pushed the Bulls to 7 games and 6 games, the Pacers pushed them to 7 as well.
Tau837
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
Teams are ranked worst to first just like now. The worst team drafts a team for the upcoming season to hold their draft position.
Last season the worst teams were PHI, LAL, BK, PHX.
1) PHI would get first shot and take LAL (they could take anyone I am choosing worst available for them)
2) LA takes PHI
3) BK would take PHX but since BOS owns their pick BOS can take BK
4)PHX takes NYK
No need for a lottery, 1st pick goes to whoever owns BK's rights, ie BOS; second pick goes to LA who owns PHI rights; 3rd would go to PHI by owning LAL rights; PHX owning NYK's spot would end up pickin 7th (or 8th, NYK tied MIN)
Tau837
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
It is neat, but it is also needs a lot of tweaking. For example the Lakers stink again and miss the playoffs, Philly on the other hand geta a point guard in the draft and he is good, Simmons and Embiid are healthy and they make the playoffs. How can the 76'ers be in the lottery when they made the playoffs? The goal is for the bad teams to get better right?
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Tau837
Footballguy
Yes, 100% sure. If you are suggesting that both the East was not more competitive then than now, I have to assume you didn't watch back then.
Short Corner
Footballguy
I think it would be best if the draft for slots is held closer to the beginning of the season so teams have as much information as possible. If Simmmons and Embid are healthy, that obviously factors into the decision. There is no lottery. Your pick is basically a delayed, uncertain gratification but there is a small level of control. While the goal is for the bad teams to get better, the bigger goal is to stop the mockery tanking has become. Teams would be trying to win every night.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
I did watch back then and it felt like a foregone conclusion that the Bulls would win yearly. Which they did 6 of the last 7 years Jordan was on that team. Kind of like the feeling most of us had about GS in the West and Cleveland in the East (there just wasn't that other team in the West during the Bulls run). I'll go further and say I'll be shocked if GS doesn't beat Cleveland badly in the finals.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
They weren't great teams. But would you rather I say the Pacers a few years ago. The Celts. The Magic. Those teams all took LeBron's teams far.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
They were very good teams who were a break or two away from unseating the Bulls. The Celtics, Wizards, and Raptors you suggested in your other post would need LeBron to get abducted to another planet to make the series competitive.
You also moved the goal posts.
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