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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)

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Ghost Rider said:
Where would everyone put Klay Thompson on the list of best players in the league? 

I think you could make a good argument for him being 5th (behind James, Durant, Curry and Leonard), although I could see a few others being ahead of him. 

Great shooter.
Great team guy.
Unselfish player
Great defender.

What's not to like?  
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Arguably the 5th best player in the league?  He's arguably the 4th best player on his own team.  I love Klay's game--but he's not even close to touching the top 10.  

 
Abraham said:
There is no good argument for him being 5th.  He's an exceptional player and perhaps the best second (or third) banana in the league. But no one is winning a 7 game series in either conference with Klay Thompson as the team's best player.  Harden, Russ, George, Butler, Davis, KAT...tgats without thinking about it too much. 

And as an aside the "great team guy" is stupid all the time. Teams that win are full of "great team guys" because everyone is happy when they are winning.  
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I'd take Klay ahead of George and Butler.  

 
2016-2017 Player Comparison

I would say that Klay, Butler, and George are all within the same tier as elite defenders. We can argue the ranking, but pretty much all 3 are generally positive to their team's defense or at the very least never picked on as the weak link by an opponent. So then it brings it down to the offensive side of the ball. Klay is a more efficient scorer than the other two, but not by much (59.2% TS% vs 58.6% for Butler/George). Context is important and that extra efficiency doesn't account for the fact that Butler and George are their team's primary scorers at all times vs Klay who goes from #3-#1 during the course of the game. All of their 3 pointers need to be respected so they offer spacing (some more than others), but Butler and George are better playmakers than Klay so that gives them the edge as well.

As someone mentioned earlier, Klay is a great 2nd banana and one of the best 2 way players in the game....but the ability to be a primary option along with comparable defense pushes Butler and George ahead of Klay easily.

 
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Abraham said:
There is no good argument for him being 5th.  He's an exceptional player and perhaps the best second (or third) banana in the league. But no one is winning a 7 game series in either conference with Klay Thompson as the team's best player.  Harden, Russ, George, Butler, Davis, KAT...tgats without thinking about it too much. 

And as an aside the "great team guy" is stupid all the time. Teams that win are full of "great team guys" because everyone is happy when they are winning.  
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To clarify, I didn't say he IS 5th; I said a good argument can be made. 

I think Klay is a good example of a guy who has sacrificed stats for the greater good. He could easily be the best player on another team and average 25-28 PPG. 

For the record, a team has yet to win a playoff series with KAT, Russ or Davis as its best player (Durant was always the best player on OKC when they were winning playoff series).  

Not sure how can say a team could not win a playoff series with Klay at its best player.  Put him on Boston, where he immediately is their best player, and you're telling me they don't win a playoff series? 

I know people fall in love with the point guard who looks great yet never wins (Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook), but an elite shooting guard like Klay will always make teams better and more likely to win.

 
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Capella said:
I think if you put Klay in Houston, he would do a pretty good Harden. 
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Exactly, minus the assists and ball handling.

To Ghost Riders point, I think everybody would agree that Thompson is sacrificing something playing with the Warriors, but not as much as he thinks. Thompson's game fits being a complementary player because he derives so much of his value defensively and he doesn't have all that much playmaking ability. Even when he is the best offensive option when Curry and Durant are out, Green or Livingston are the creators, not Thompson.

 
Ghost Rider said:
To clarify, I didn't say he IS 5th; I said a good argument can be made. 

I think Klay is a good example of a guy who has sacrificed stats for the greater good. He could easily be the best player on another team and average 25-28 PPG. 

For the record, a team has yet to win a playoff series with KAT, Russ or Davis as its best player (Durant was always the best player on OKC when they were winning playoff series).  

Not sure how can say a team could not win a playoff series with Klay at its best player.  Put him on Boston, where he immediately is their best player, and you're telling me they don't win a playoff series? 

I know people fall in love with the point guard who looks great yet never wins (Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook), but an elite shooting guard like Klay will always make teams better and more likely to win.
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If you put Russell, KAT, or Davis in the East they would win a series. You are putting Klay in the best possiblespot to win and those guys are in the worst spots. 

Other than Jordan and Kobe, who are all time greats, a good point guard will always be more valuable and produce more wins than a good shooting guard. 

 
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I'm not sure i think Klay is on the level of George as a two way player but even granting that I don't think he has the handles to be a primary guy.  And suggesting he could do a good harden impression on the right team is bizarre.  Their games couldn't be more dissimilar. 

 
Abraham said:
I'm not sure i think Klay is on the level of George as a two way player but even granting that I don't think he has the handles to be a primary guy.  And suggesting he could do a good harden impression on the right team is bizarre.  Their games couldn't be more dissimilar. 
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You're right, Klay is a way more complete player who doesn't lay down and die in the playoffs. 

 
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Klay is an awesome shooter and a great player. Let's be perfectly clear on that--as I don't want to come across as a Klay hater.   However--when we are talking about a top 5-10 basketball player in the world--we're talking about guys that can single handedly make their teams somewhat relevant and dangerous.  Butler and George have an all around skill set and and athleticism that do that.  People forget that the Pacers arguably should have easily taken two games from the Cavs in the first round. It was a 4 game sweep that was decided by a total of 16pts--literally a 4pt margin per game.   You put Klay on the Pacers in place of George--and I don't see that series being competitive at all.    

Relative to other NBA players--Klay is not hyper athletic--nor is he an elite ball handler.   The system that he plays in makes him look more athletic and makes him look like a better ball handler than he actually is.  The reason for this is because he gets the luxury of playing on a more open court because of the presense of Curry and Durant.  This same space allows him to get his long distance shot up as he has a very quick release.  Because defenders generally have to close out on this space when he catches the ball--he can generally dribble around the close out to create a layup or a midrange shot for himself. However--I personally think that his game would suffer a bit if he didn't get the luxury of the space that he now benefits from.  If he was the main guy on a team where defenses focus on stopping him--I think his percentages and efficiency drops.  With all that being said--I could easily put him in the top 20-25 in the league--but I don't know if I could get close to putting him top 5.   

 
Capella said:
You're right, Klay is a way more complete player who doesn't lay down and die in the playoffs. 
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Lmao.  You're trolling right?   Klay doesn't lay down and die in the playoffs?   You're telling me that if Klay was replaced by Harden in last seasons finals--they still give up a 3-1 lead? In game 7--a game they lost by 4pts at home where Klay went 6-17 from the field and 2-10 from the 3pt line?  Any team that defends Harden literally creates a team defensive scheme where the sole and primary focus is to stop Harden--and he still puts up bigger numbers than Klay.   We have a championship deciding game where Klay had to deal with slightly better defenders due to Steph being slightly hobbled --and the dude missed 2/3 of his shots.  So far this playoffs--against very weak competition--Klay is averaging 15pts per game on 40% shooting from the field--far from clutch playoff numbers.   

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Lmao.  You're trolling right?   Klay doesn't lay down and die in the playoffs?   You're telling me that if Klay was replaced by Harden in last seasons finals--they still give up a 3-1 lead? In game 7--a game they lost by 4pts at home where Klay went 6-17 from the field and 2-10 from the 3pt line?  Any team that defends Harden literally creates a team defensive scheme where the sole and primary focus is to stop Harden--and he still puts up bigger numbers than Klay.   We have a championship deciding game where Klay had to deal with slightly better defenders due to Steph being slightly hobbled --and the dude missed 2/3 of his shots.  So far this playoffs--against very weak competition--Klay is averaging 15pts per game on 40% shooting from the field--far from clutch playoff numbers.   
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Hmmm. Interesting how you left game 6 of the 2016 WCF out of your little analysis here. I wonder why. ?

 
Capella said:
Hmmm. Interesting how you left game 6 of the 2016 WCF out of your little analysis here. I wonder why. ?
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Are you telling me that if you replace Harden with Klay on the Rockets--that the Rockets would be a better team that would have performed better? Just answer that question.  If you replace Klay with Harden on the Warriors--the Warriors are a better team and the Rockets are a far inferior team.  I understand that you are a Klay fan--but the notion that Klay is somehow a more dynamic player that is more playoff clutch is misguided at best.  Klay played alongside a top 3 player in the world in previous seasons--and is currently playing with 2 of the top 4-5 players on the planet. He has nowhere near the playoff responsibilty that Harden has.   

 
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IMO the most difficult players to evaluate are really good players on bad teams, and really good players who aren't the best player on their own team.  

This is going to come off as Klay-hating.  I think he's a deserving All-Star.  However...

The metrics aren't there to support his defensive reputation.  He's very good on isos, but leaves a bit to be desired on team defense concepts.  Perhaps the metrics aren't there because Klay consistently takes tough defensive assignments, or GSW's efforts to push the pace get in the way of Klay being a good defender on paper.  But outside of isos, the numbers don't support the reputation.   

He didn't sacrifice anything to accommodate Durant.  He said he wouldn't and he didn't.  His per-minute and per-possession shot frequency is pretty much unchanged the last three years.  I think GSW's window extends beyond 2019 because any team with Durant and Curry will be competitive, but I wouldn't count on Klay sticking around after his current contract is up in summer 2019.

He strikes me as a fugazi tough guy who puffs his chest out a lot but can't be trusted to do anything about it if something actually happens.  

I know the postseason is a small sample size, but Klay's 2017 postseason PER is 9.4.  That's "Larry Hughes in 2007 postseason" territory.  In the midst of this historic GSW playoff run, Klay has been producing at barely replacement level.  

 

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Are you telling me that if you replace Harden with Klay on the Rockets--that the Rockets would be a better team that would have performed better? Just answer that question.  If you replace Klay with Harden on the Warriors--the Warriors are a better team and he Rockets are a far inferior team.  I understand that you are a Klay fan--but the notion that Klay is somehow a more dynamic player that is more playoff clutch is misguided at best.  Klay played alongside a top 3 player in the world in previous seasons--and is currently playing with 2 of the top 4-5 players on the planet. He has nowhere near the playoff responsibilty that Harden has.   
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No the Warriors aren't.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Are you telling me that if you replace Harden with Klay on the Rockets--that the Rockets would be a better team that would have performed better? Just answer that question.  If you replace Klay with Harden on the Warriors--the Warriors are a better team and the Rockets are a far inferior team.  I understand that you are a Klay fan--but the notion that Klay is somehow a more dynamic player that is more playoff clutch is misguided at best.  Klay played alongside a top 3 player in the world in previous seasons--and is currently playing with 2 of the top 4-5 players on the planet. He has nowhere near the playoff responsibilty that Harden has.   
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To your first question, no I have literally never said that. I think Harden is better but only slightly when you look at their entire game.

Also not a Klay "fan" or Harden "hater" or whatever other dumb label you want to apply. I just think if Klay was in his spot in houston there wouldn't be a major dropoff. 

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
IMO the most difficult players to evaluate are really good players on bad teams, and really good players who aren't the best player on their own team.  

This is going to come off as Klay-hating.  I think he's a deserving All-Star.  However...

The metrics aren't there to support his defensive reputation.  He's very good on isos, but leaves a bit to be desired on team defense concepts.  Perhaps the metrics aren't there because Klay consistently takes tough defensive assignments, or GSW's efforts to push the pace get in the way of Klay being a good defender on paper.  But outside of isos, the numbers don't support the reputation.   

He didn't sacrifice anything to accommodate Durant.  He said he wouldn't and he didn't.  His per-minute and per-possession shot frequency is pretty much unchanged the last three years.  I think GSW's window extends beyond 2019 because any team with Durant and Curry will be competitive, but I wouldn't count on Klay sticking around after his current contract is up in summer 2019.

He strikes me as a fugazi tough guy who puffs his chest out a lot but can't be trusted to do anything about it if something actually happens.  

I know the postseason is a small sample size, but Klay's 2017 postseason PER is 9.4.  That's "Larry Hughes in 2007 postseason" territory.  In the midst of this historic GSW playoff run, Klay has been producing at barely replacement level.  

 
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So Klay's play wouldn't  suffer because of Durant, but his 2017 playoff numbers have suffered. Interesting. 

 
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Capella said:
To your first question, no I have literally never said that. I think Harden is better but only slightly when you look at their entire game.

Also not a Klay "fan" or Harden "hater" or whatever other dumb label you want to apply. I just think if Klay was in his spot in houston there wouldn't be a major dropoff. 
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We'll have to agree to disagree. Just a quick question--do you enjoy being rude or confrontational?  It seems nobody can have an opposing opinion of anything without you finding the need to be a jerk.   You started this thread to promote and invite basketball discussion--and the moment we actually start discussing anything that you not fully agree with--you make rude/snarky and out of place comments.   You came across as being a Klay fan by your own comments--you didn't need to say "whatever dumb label that you want to apply".     Let's just agree not to comment on each other's posts if you can't do so in an adult fashion.   

 
msudaisy26 said:
So Klay's play wouldn't  suffer because of Durant, but his 2017 playoff numbers have suffered. Interesting. 
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I said "sacrifice", not "suffer".  

Klay is in a shooting slump.  His shot selection doesn't seem to be poor; they just aren't going in.  I doubt Durant's presence/absence has much to do with that.  

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
We'll have to agree to disagree. Just a quick question--do you enjoy being rude or confrontational?  It seems nobody can have an opposing opinion of anything without you finding the need to be a jerk.   You started this thread to promote and invite basketball discussion--and the moment we actually start discussing anything that you not fully agree with--you make rude/snarky and out of place comments.   You came across as being a Klay fan by your own comments--you didn't need to say "whatever dumb label that you want to apply".     Let's just agree not to comment on each other's posts if you can't do so in an adult fashion.   
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I took your comments to be rude. "Just answer the question" like I'm on trial or something.  Also assuming I am taking my stance because I am a Klay fan, when l literally couldn't care less about either player. 

If you want a smart conversation then don't pose the questions/comments in a way where you are presuming you know the answer.  

 
Capella said:
I took your comments to be rude. "Just answer the question" like I'm on trial or something.  Also assuming I am taking my stance because I am a Klay fan, when l literally couldn't care less about either player. 

If you want a smart conversation then don't pose the questions/comments in a way where you are presuming you know the answer.  
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I think when comparing two players--one thing to consider is analyzing how each would perform in different environments--as basketball is a sport where each teams system and playing style can effect a players production.  I'm not sure how asking somebody to analyze that in a two player comparison could be considered rude--but if it came across that way--I certainly didn't intend it to.   Either way--nice going back and forth and enjoy your day. 

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
I think when comparing two players--one thing to consider is analyzing how each would perform in different environments--as basketball is a sport where each teams system and playing style can effect a players production.  I'm not sure how asking somebody to analyze that in a two player comparison could be considered rude--but if it came across that way--I certainly didn't intend it to.   Either way--nice going back and forth and enjoy your day. 
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They're pretty drastically different players. I'd like to see what Klay is like outside of the GS comfort sphere but maybe that wouldn't work for him. 

Enjoy your weekend as well. 

 
Capella said:
To your first question, no I have literally never said that. I think Harden is better but only slightly when you look at their entire game.

Also not a Klay "fan" or Harden "hater" or whatever other dumb label you want to apply. I just think if Klay was in his spot in houston there wouldn't be a major dropoff. 
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Klay is no where near the creator that Harden is. Like Abe mentioned the lineups (start of 2nd and 4th) where Curry and KD sit and it's Klay and Dray with Clark/Livingston/West or McGee really have trouble scoring points against good defenses. This lineup is where you can see how Klay does as a primary option and it's very inconsistent. Also, Dray, Livingston, and Clark will initiate the offense in this group with Klay running off screens. 

Could Klay develop into a primary ballhandler? Maybe, he has the work ethic, but as of now there's no question the Rockets would be worse if Klay and Harden swapped roles. The Rockets are built around Harden and Klay cannot make everyone better like Harden does.

 
Klay could certainly be a primary scorer on another team with the right support around him. Probably a top 20 scorer in the league even. Certainly not a guy you can plug in just anywhere and get the production you are looking for.

 
RokNRole said:
Klay could certainly be a primary scorer on another team with the right support around him. Probably a top 20 scorer in the league even. Certainly not a guy you can plug in just anywhere and get the production you are looking for.
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Exactly and that's why he's less valuable than Butler, George, and Harden. He needs other players to create for him.

 
Charlie Harper said:
Exactly and that's why he's less valuable than Butler, George, and Harden. He needs other players to create for him.
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Ultimately that's what it comes down to IMO with Klay.  He's excellent on offense away from the ball and that is a valuable skill - he doesn't need to dominate the ball to score, can screen, has a good sense of spacing.  When his shot is on, wow does he reward creators who get him the ball.  But he needs to be in an offense with a lot of movement or with a dynamic PG who can create space for others.   

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Ultimately that's what it comes down to IMO with Klay.  He's excellent on offense away from the ball and that is a valuable skill - he doesn't need to dominate the ball to score, can screen, has a good sense of spacing.  When his shot is on, wow does he reward creators who get him the ball.  But he needs to be in an offense with a lot of movement or with a dynamic PG who can create space for others.   
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Klay is a better defender, with more shooting range version of Richard Hamilton, or a better ball handling, and defending version of Reggie Miller. He is always going to be his best when he has someone to get him the ball. 

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Lmao.  You're trolling right?   Klay doesn't lay down and die in the playoffs?   You're telling me that if Klay was replaced by Harden in last seasons finals--they still give up a 3-1 lead? In game 7--a game they lost by 4pts at home where Klay went 6-17 from the field and 2-10 from the 3pt line?  Any team that defends Harden literally creates a team defensive scheme where the sole and primary focus is to stop Harden--and he still puts up bigger numbers than Klay.   We have a championship deciding game where Klay had to deal with slightly better defenders due to Steph being slightly hobbled --and the dude missed 2/3 of his shots.  So far this playoffs--against very weak competition--Klay is averaging 15pts per game on 40% shooting from the field--far from clutch playoff numbers.   
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You are crazy.  Klay's 15ppg + phenomenal defense >>>> Harden's whatever ppg + no defense.

 
This whole tangent on Thompson is bizarre. He is a great complementary player. An All-Star level complementary player. But that is a wholly different thing from being the alpha player on a playoff-caliber team. I don't see him ever fitting that role.

 
tjnc09 said:
You are crazy.  Klay's 15ppg + phenomenal defense >>>> Harden's whatever ppg + no defense.
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Harden is one of the top 5 or so offensive players in the league. Thompson is a better defender, but not a top 5 defender. Harden > Thompson.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Harden is one of the top 5 or so offensive players in the league. Thompson is a better defender, but not a top 5 defender. Harden > Thompson.
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lol Harden is a TERRIBLE defender.  I don't know what game you watch, but you have to play both sides of the ball.

 
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