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2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (2 Viewers)

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That bench scene also needs to be taken in full context.... Lebron had just emptied his tank to beat a team that is much much better than his own team.  He got screwed on 2 calls early in the 4th, he got screwed on an overturned call with 30 seconds left, he had a teammate who couldn't hit 2 free throws, and a teammate who didn't know the score in a championship game.  That's about as bad a stretch of events as you can get.  Again, let the man sit there and catch his breath.

 
Synthesizer said:
That bench scene also needs to be taken in full context.... Lebron had just emptied his tank to beat a team that is much much better than his own team.  He got screwed on 2 calls early in the 4th, he got screwed on an overturned call with 30 seconds left, he had a teammate who couldn't hit 2 free throws, and a teammate who didn't know the score in a championship game.  That's about as bad a stretch of events as you can get.  Again, let the man sit there and catch his breath.
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Absolutely not. 

 
Synthesizer said:
That bench scene also needs to be taken in full context.... Lebron had just emptied his tank to beat a team that is much much better than his own team.  He got screwed on 2 calls early in the 4th, he got screwed on an overturned call with 30 seconds left, he had a teammate who couldn't hit 2 free throws, and a teammate who didn't know the score in a championship game.  That's about as bad a stretch of events as you can get.  Again, let the man sit there and catch his breath.
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You can't just decide to make free-throws at a higher rate because the game is on the line. An 80% FT shooter will make both only 64% of the time.

 
modogg said:
it's what half the league does. Watch Tatum in half his games, comes in the lane with forearm leading the way half the time
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I understand he is not alone in his actions, just the most prevalent.  James Harden does this just as much.  BTW this is not a Lebron thing, this is an old man laments change thing.  There are other players constantly jumping into a defenders space or swinging their arms through that persons verticality column into the defenders arms that were always raised who get calls.  Its not basketball, at least as I knew it.  I don't like it, others may.  the game has evolved.  such things happen but they give the offense too much advantage in my estimation.  I think it ruins the flow of the game.

 
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Synthesizer said:
That bench scene also needs to be taken in full context.... Lebron had just emptied his tank to beat a team that is much much better than his own team.  He got screwed on 2 calls early in the 4th, he got screwed on an overturned call with 30 seconds left, he had a teammate who couldn't hit 2 free throws, and a teammate who didn't know the score in a championship game.  That's about as bad a stretch of events as you can get.  Again, let the man sit there and catch his breath.
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We are talking about the fine line between greatest player of his generation and greatest of all time.  At that point, it's a far more critical eye, and the highest of expectations - unrealistically high, because being the single greatest ever at what you do is pretty unrealistic for, well... just about everyone.

While I'll give Lebron a minute, two minutes, to compose himself, get over the frustration, stew a bit - and catch his breathe - after that, a true leader doesn't continue to mope, and then make the idiot who screwed up feel even worse, all going into the five minutes that could very well decide the series (considering their underdog by a long shot status).

Just don't know how people are so willing to let Lebron off the hook here for a terrible display, imo. And I was and am rooting for Lebron in this series - and I'm surprised Cappy is ok with it as well.  While hardly the end of the world, it's also not even close to the behavior one would expect from an all time great player and a team's leader at that critical juncture.  

 
Capella said:
It’s...not an analogy. It’s just a reminder that Jordan wasn’t the selfless angel from beyond everybody makes him out to be. 
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Oh, dude - from what I know, Lebron seems like a FAR better person than Jordan. Not that I can say Jordan was "bad" - but he never looked to give back in the way Lebron has, he never stood up for anything that wasn't Be Like Me and Gimme $$s.  He had gambling issues and some other demons that were kept pretty quiet, but he was no choir boy.

Don't let me coming down on Lebron for a lack of focus on a game be equated with my opinion of the two men off the court. 

In fact, it might be that "bad side" of Jordan that enabled him to have the singular greatest ability to focus that I personally have witnessed in team sports. He'd have absolutely killed JR, chewed him out, goodness knows.  But his head would be in that game, and he'd be focused, and doing whatever the hell in the moment would help them win. Perhaps because he hated to lose so much that he didn't care what he'd have to do to get there.

I don't see Jordan moping, is all. 

 
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Koya said:
Did he do it when the series was tied during game 1? 

Come on man, how can you not take issue with that clear lack of leadership and focus? The best player of his generation was not there when his team absolutely needed him most.

And I like Lebron. And can't stand Jordan.
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Wait, are you talking about Game 1?   The one where LeBron went 51-8-8?  

 
tommyGunZ said:
Wait, are you talking about Game 1?   The one where LeBron went 51-8-8?  
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I am talking about after regulation in game 1, when it was a tie game, specifically. 

Look, Lebron is arguably a top 3 all time player.  I'm just shocked that y'all seem ok with his extended pouting and complete lack of looking to get himself and his teammates focused on the freakin' task at hand.  It boggles my mind that one of the all time greatest is getting a pass on acting like a child in such a crucial moment, extenuating circumstances are not.

I didn't think expecting him to get over it, refocus himself, get JR's head back in the game and get everyone on the same page and ready for OT is setting the bar so high. Apparently some of you disagree. :shrug:  

 
Koya said:
I am talking about after regulation in game 1, when it was a tie game, specifically. 

Look, Lebron is arguably a top 3 all time player.  I'm just shocked that y'all seem ok with his extended pouting and complete lack of looking to get himself and his teammates focused on the freakin' task at hand.  It boggles my mind that one of the all time greatest is getting a pass on acting like a child in such a crucial moment, extenuating circumstances are not.

I didn't think expecting him to get over it, refocus himself, get JR's head back in the game and get everyone on the same page and ready for OT is setting the bar so high. Apparently some of you disagree. :shrug:  
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I think you have a point but I find it tough to criticize Lebron after he had a transcendent performance up to that point. I put the blame more on Lue for not taking control of the situation and focusing his players on the OT. 

Middleton’s 30 footer to tie Game 1 in the first round against the Celtics was more devastating but Celtics were able to refocus and win. First round vs. Finals though.

 
Koya said:
I am talking about after regulation in game 1, when it was a tie game, specifically. 

Look, Lebron is arguably a top 3 all time player.  I'm just shocked that y'all seem ok with his extended pouting and complete lack of looking to get himself and his teammates focused on the freakin' task at hand.  It boggles my mind that one of the all time greatest is getting a pass on acting like a child in such a crucial moment, extenuating circumstances are not.

I didn't think expecting him to get over it, refocus himself, get JR's head back in the game and get everyone on the same page and ready for OT is setting the bar so high. Apparently some of you disagree. :shrug:  
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How was he acting like a child?  I thought he handled it well, and they went out and competed in OT.  They're playing the greatest team in the history of the NBA; Klay and Draymond made their 3 pt. shots in OT, and KLove, LeBron, and George Hill missed their shots.  :shrug:

 
JuniorGong said:
I think you have a point but I find it tough to criticize Lebron after he had a transcendent performance up to that point. I put the blame more on Lue for not taking control of the situation and focusing his players on the OT. 

Middleton’s 30 footer to tie Game 1 in the first round against the Celtics was more devastating but Celtics were able to refocus and win. First round vs. Finals though.
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Well that, and the fact that Boston was the better team.  Cleveland is probably one of the worst rosters to ever reach a Finals, and they're playing the greatest team of all time.  Huge difference.  

 
Koya said:
I am talking about after regulation in game 1, when it was a tie game, specifically. 

Look, Lebron is arguably a top 3 all time player.  I'm just shocked that y'all seem ok with his extended pouting and complete lack of looking to get himself and his teammates focused on the freakin' task at hand.  It boggles my mind that one of the all time greatest is getting a pass on acting like a child in such a crucial moment, extenuating circumstances are not.

I didn't think expecting him to get over it, refocus himself, get JR's head back in the game and get everyone on the same page and ready for OT is setting the bar so high. Apparently some of you disagree. :shrug:  
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Had Jordan had the #### team that LeBron has carried there is no doubt in my mind he would not have reacted in a way that encourages the team.  The Bulls during Jordan's suspension won 55 and 47 games, making it to the East semifinals each year while he was gone.  Look at the team they still had in 94 They only went from 57 to 55 games the first year he was out.

Ain't no damn way this Cleveland team without LeBron even wins 30.  "Arguably" a top 3.  LOL.  

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I'd like to see one LeBron drive where he neither pushes off massively with his forearm clearing room, hooks the defensive player throwing them out of the way and simultaneously whining for a foul on the defender, or takes a fourth step.
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Maybe basketball's not your sport Mike.  I know, let's watch a spelling bee.

 
JuniorGong said:
I think you have a point but I find it tough to criticize Lebron after he had a transcendent performance up to that point. I put the blame more on Lue for not taking control of the situation and focusing his players on the OT. 

Middleton’s 30 footer to tie Game 1 in the first round against the Celtics was more devastating but Celtics were able to refocus and win. First round vs. Finals though.
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I am not saying they lost because of Lebron.  I'm saying I expect the absolute best during the most important moments in the most important games from the games most important historical players.

And in that moment, he didn't give us the best. No more, no less.  But to me, it's worth noting. :shrug:  

 
tommyGunZ said:
How was he acting like a child?  I thought he handled it well, and they went out and competed in OT.  They're playing the greatest team in the history of the NBA; Klay and Draymond made their 3 pt. shots in OT, and KLove, LeBron, and George Hill missed their shots.  :shrug:
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The video shown above, with him moping, not engaging with his teammates at ALL, and then when he heard the "confirmation" that they indeed had a timeout, had this expression of "oh FFS" and then put a towel over his head, went inward, and reinforced this isolated moping rather than outward motivation and focus.

And as noted, I'm not saying Lebron didn't have anything less than an ALL TIME great game.   But in that one (huge) moment, imo, he let himself and his team down.  And the reason I come down harshly, even under trying circumstance, is that this is like an "effort" issue... it's not that he couldnt hit a shot, or just didn't get something done. This was all mental. And he was not strong enough to overcome all that was going on around him... which again, is understandable.

But not indicative of what we expect from someone in the greatest player of all time conversation. Not sure how the distinction can't be made that he had an other wordly game, is way way way outgunned, singlehandedly willed his team to a tie at the end of regulation - but then, in that moment, did not rise to the occasion mentally to overcome and refocus, and imo you did see that have some effect in overtime (though it's hard to say, as again, GSW is so much better a team).

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
tommyGunZ, you are a Lakers fan no?  I'd like to hear your current thoughts on the trade with Cleveland.  How has it worked out?
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Absolute steal from the Lakers perspective.  Of course I'm biased, but not having to pay Clarkson was worth losing Nance.  The 1st rounder is a cherry. 

Short Corner said:
This isn't even the worst Cleveland team to make the finals.
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Agreed.  That doesn't contradict my point though.  

 
Koya said:
The video shown above, with him moping, not engaging with his teammates at ALL, and then when he heard the "confirmation" that they indeed had a timeout, had this expression of "oh FFS" and then put a towel over his head, went inward, and reinforced this isolated moping rather than outward motivation and focus.

And as noted, I'm not saying Lebron didn't have anything less than an ALL TIME great game.   But in that one (huge) moment, imo, he let himself and his team down.  And the reason I come down harshly, even under trying circumstance, is that this is like an "effort" issue... it's not that he couldnt hit a shot, or just didn't get something done. This was all mental. And he was not strong enough to overcome all that was going on around him... which again, is understandable.

But not indicative of what we expect from someone in the greatest player of all time conversation. Not sure how the distinction can't be made that he had an other wordly game, is way way way outgunned, singlehandedly willed his team to a tie at the end of regulation - but then, in that moment, did not rise to the occasion mentally to overcome and refocus, and imo you did see that have some effect in overtime (though it's hard to say, as again, GSW is so much better a team).
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See, I think he showed remarkable restraint and focus not actually strangling Henny God on the spot.  

The guy is human. Smith's "take it back" play is one of, if not THE most boneheaded plays in the history of the Finals. Expecting LeBron to immediately divest himself of emotional disappointment at such a ridiculous mental lapse is a bit much, IMO.  

 
need2know said:
The 1991 championship bulls didn't have nine made threes in their entire playoff run

:lol:
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This is suck a weak argument on who is better or what competition was better. No one used the 3 pointer like they do now. You guys act like there were a couple teams running around hitting 3's like crazy and the Bulls just got lucky and avoided them all. 

The game has evolved. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
This is suck a weak argument on who is better or what competition was better. No one used the 3 pointer like they do now. You guys act like there were a couple teams running around hitting 3's like crazy and the Bulls just got lucky and avoided them all. 

The game has evolved. 
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Who is saying that?

 
flranger said:
Had Jordan had the #### team that LeBron has carried there is no doubt in my mind he would not have reacted in a way that encourages the team.  The Bulls during Jordan's suspension won 55 and 47 games, making it to the East semifinals each year while he was gone.  Look at the team they still had in 94 They only went from 57 to 55 games the first year he was out.

Ain't no damn way this Cleveland team without LeBron even wins 30.  "Arguably" a top 3.  LOL.  
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I think in 1995, Michael Jordan returned and went to the Finals. Because he is so great, no team could beat him and the Bulls. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 
GOB said:
I think in 1995, Michael Jordan returned and went to the Finals. Because he is so great, no team could beat him and the Bulls. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Oddly enough, they lost in the 2nd round to a Magic team that went on to get swept in the finals a few weeks later by the Rockets, a team some have disparaged by saying they only won titles because Jordan was retired.  Revisionist history can be fun. 

 
Koya said:
Oh, dude - from what I know, Lebron seems like a FAR better person than Jordan. Not that I can say Jordan was "bad" - but he never looked to give back in the way Lebron has, he never stood up for anything that wasn't Be Like Me and Gimme $$s.  He had gambling issues and some other demons that were kept pretty quiet, but he was no choir boy.

Don't let me coming down on Lebron for a lack of focus on a game be equated with my opinion of the two men off the court. 

In fact, it might be that "bad side" of Jordan that enabled him to have the singular greatest ability to focus that I personally have witnessed in team sports. He'd have absolutely killed JR, chewed him out, goodness knows.  But his head would be in that game, and he'd be focused, and doing whatever the hell in the moment would help them win. Perhaps because he hated to lose so much that he didn't care what he'd have to do to get there.

I don't see Jordan moping, is all. 
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Smith and Hill should consider themselves lucky, Magic Johnson would have busted a chair over their heads on the sideline. Larry Bird would probably have sacrificed them to the leprechauns.

 
GOB said:
I think in 1995, Michael Jordan returned and went to the Finals. Because he is so great, no team could beat him and the Bulls. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Is that Nick Anderson strip of Jordan the greatest moment in Orlando sports history?  If not, what?

 
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