Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
- Status
Kev4029
Footballguy
Frostillicus
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Yep. I'm sure the lineup of Robin Lopez, Bobby Portis, Lauri Markaanen, Zach Lavine and Kris Dunn is going to scare the holy hell out of opponents.
Max Power
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
Its more Lopez, Niko, Valentine, Lavine, and Payne knowing our management and Fred.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Problem is it isn't bad enough to get a top 5 pick without some luckEvilgrin 72 said:
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Nice post. Phil liked the French kid and figured the Latvian kid did well, so why not double down. What a mope. We'll see if the French kid can actually defend NBA guards though, the phrase "you are who you can guard" comes to mind, despite his wingspan stats.msudaisy26 said:
Frostillicus
Footballguy
My daughter says she's pretty excited about the trade so she can say "Jimmy Butt...................ler"
msudaisy26
Footballguy
My badMax Power said:
DJackson10
Footballguy
My 2nd Country other then US best Goalkeeper is 18 and plays in Italy yeah.CGRdrJoe said:
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Entirely possible. I don't think Niko is coming back, though. He may, we'll see. He's still better than Markaanen. Vegas wins O/U is going to open around 25.5Max Power said:
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Forman has to have nude photos of someone. Besides me, I mean. I still regret sending those.
Max Power
Footballguy
I like Niko enough to bring him back. But I think the Bulls crack the 25 win mark with rondo. Without him might be a different story.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Oh god it's on the big screen.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
One more......
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I used to enjoy saying Jimmy But-a-luh Show, like the executive from Nakahama Broadcast Company. How I yearn wistfully for those halcyon days.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
This is definitely not the best night of my life as my wife is looking over my shoulder.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Poor Bulls fans. Bad enough hearing it once, now the Silver comes on and tells everyone what we already knew.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Pretty sure they will cut Rondo and eat the 3 million. Trade everyone. Start with Kris Dunn, Zach Lavine, and Lauri Markaanen.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Kev4029
Footballguy
Yeah, at the very least they'll make great fade and under material for sportsbetting.
Last edited by a moderator:
Max Power
Footballguy
I dont want to watch that. I like Portis and think valentine can be good. But the rest of that team is trash.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Hopefully they can trade #24 for something, there is nobody left that I want them to draft.
Max Power
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
ESPN trade grades are out...
Chicago Bulls: F
After Chicago reportedly demanded multiple high draft picks (including the one that ultimately landed No. 1 overall) from the Boston Celtics at the trade deadline, it's stunning to see the Bulls deal Butler for such a paltry package.
In Butler, the Bulls had one of the most valuable player contracts in the entire league. Butler, who rated third in the league in wins produced based on ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) behind LeBron James and Stephen Curry in 2016-17, has two more guaranteed years remaining at $18.7 and $19.8 million before a player option for 2019-20 (also for $19.8 million) that he's sure to decline barring injury. Over those two years, I project his production as worth about $90 million, giving Butler more than $50 million in surplus value to his team. That ranks 10th in the league.
Clearly, Chicago is valuing Dunn like the elite point guard prospect a handful of teams thought he was during the draft process this time a year ago and LaVine as a guard with star potential. Those assessments don't hold up to stronger scrutiny.
Given his age, Dunn was never a favorite of my statistical draft projections. He ranked 18th among last year's prospects in my stats-only projections and seventh when his draft slot (fifth overall, which also is predictive) was taken into account.
Dunn's performance as a rookie reconfirmed those concerns. He shot just 28.8 percent from 3-point range on 2.0 attempts per 36 minutes, and he wasn't much better inside the arc, at 40.4 percent. Among the 282 players who played at least 1,000 minutes last season, Dunn's .432 true shooting percentage ranked dead last.
On the plus side, Dunn showed strong defensive potential, and he played a little better off the ball after Minnesota coach Tom Thibodeau began playing him alongside pass-first point guard Tyus Jones. It's true that point guards develop later than players at other positions, so we shouldn't think of Dunn as a finished product at age 23.
That said, no objective analysis of Dunn's rookie season suggests he's likely to develop into an NBA starting point guard, which is how the Bulls are almost certainly valuing him in this trade.
Then there's LaVine, who showed exciting scoring ability before a torn ACL ended his 2016-17 campaign in early February. His 18.9 points per game last season were the sixth most by a player age 22 or younger, trailing Timberwolves teammates Karl-Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins, All-Star Giannis Antetokounmpo, Devin Booker and Jabari Parker. LaVine accomplished that on good efficiency, posting a .576 true shooting percentage.
The problem is on the defensive end of the court. LaVine is a poor individual defender whose team defense instincts are lacking. He also generates few steals and is a nonfactor on the defensive glass. LaVine's minus-2.4 defensive RPM ranked in the league's bottom 30. To become something more than a potent sixth man, LaVine will have to improve defensively.
Worse yet, LaVine is entering the final season of his rookie contract. A realistic timetable for his recovery from ACL surgery makes it unlikely LaVine will be back for training camp, meaning Chicago will probably have to decide on a possible extension for him before seeing him take the court. The Bulls can wait for LaVine to become a restricted free agent and decide whether to match any offer, certainly, but at that point, he would be more likely to be fairly paid than the kind of bargain Chicago should have been seeking as part of a package for Butler.
Without being in the room for trade talks, it's tough to know what kind of offers the Bulls passed on to make this deal. But given that Dunn and LaVine should have relatively little trade value and Chicago had to give up its own first-round pick to move up just seven spots (a move equivalent to the value of the 23rd pick, per my trade value chart), it's hard to imagine there wasn't a better deal available.
If this truly was the best the Bulls could do for Butler right now, then I'm not sure I understand the urgency to move him. In the worst-case scenario, where Butler's trade value eroded further, Chicago could have just held on to Butler and tried to compete in the Eastern Conference during his prime.
I get the argument for moving Butler because the Bulls aren't particularly competitive with him, but not if this is all they could get in return. This package doesn't set Chicago up for a future any brighter than the eighth-seed purgatory the team was already in.
Minnesota Timberwolves: A+
For a year, we've been waiting for Thibodeau's regime to make a win-now move. The Timberwolves resisted last summer, spending modestly in free agency to conserve cap space for this year, and at the trade deadline. Now that this deal has finally come, it's far better than anyone could have imagined or perhaps even dreamed.
My fear was that Minnesota would continue to overvalue Dunn, moving starting point guard Ricky Rubio for pennies on the dollar to clear room for Dunn in the starting lineup. While we don't know if the Timberwolves will keep Rubio, the organization didn't hesitate to move on from Dunn when he fell short of expectations. And if you're as down on Dunn and LaVine as I am, the Timberwolves didn't do much to hurt their long-term future.
It's still a little early for Minnesota to really contend in the Western Conference. Wiggins is 22 and Towns won't turn 22 until November. But given their age, another year of learning Thibodeau's defense and their hope of improving their bad luck in close games, the Timberwolves were likely to improve by simply bringing back the same roster. Now, Minnesota should be considered heavy favorites to make the playoffs for the first time since reaching the 2004 Western Conference finals.
Amazingly, assuming Nikola Pekovic's salary is medically excluded (the Timberwolves recently waived the center, who didn't play at all last season due to injury) and Minnesota renounces the rights to restricted free agent Shabazz Muhammad, the team could still clear nearly $20 million in cap space to add to this group.
Barring a Rubio trade, the idea of pairing Paul Millsap with Towns in the frontcourt is probably off the table, but the Timberwolves can shop for a lower-cost upgrade at power forward to complement Towns and Gorgui Dieng. (One possibility? Nikola Mirotic, a restricted free agent who doesn't appear to be in the Bulls' plans now that they drafted Arizona forward Lauri Markkanen with the pick they acquired in this trade.)
While this mix isn't perfect -- Rubio, Butler and Wiggins don't offer enough shooting as a perimeter trio -- 45 wins is well within Minnesota's capability next season, and 50 wins is a distinct possibility. The Timberwolves have the next couple of years to try to win enough games to convince Butler to stick around long term. But that worry is for another day. As of tonight, Minnesota is a huge winner.
Chicago Bulls: F
After Chicago reportedly demanded multiple high draft picks (including the one that ultimately landed No. 1 overall) from the Boston Celtics at the trade deadline, it's stunning to see the Bulls deal Butler for such a paltry package.
In Butler, the Bulls had one of the most valuable player contracts in the entire league. Butler, who rated third in the league in wins produced based on ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) behind LeBron James and Stephen Curry in 2016-17, has two more guaranteed years remaining at $18.7 and $19.8 million before a player option for 2019-20 (also for $19.8 million) that he's sure to decline barring injury. Over those two years, I project his production as worth about $90 million, giving Butler more than $50 million in surplus value to his team. That ranks 10th in the league.
Clearly, Chicago is valuing Dunn like the elite point guard prospect a handful of teams thought he was during the draft process this time a year ago and LaVine as a guard with star potential. Those assessments don't hold up to stronger scrutiny.
Given his age, Dunn was never a favorite of my statistical draft projections. He ranked 18th among last year's prospects in my stats-only projections and seventh when his draft slot (fifth overall, which also is predictive) was taken into account.
Dunn's performance as a rookie reconfirmed those concerns. He shot just 28.8 percent from 3-point range on 2.0 attempts per 36 minutes, and he wasn't much better inside the arc, at 40.4 percent. Among the 282 players who played at least 1,000 minutes last season, Dunn's .432 true shooting percentage ranked dead last.
On the plus side, Dunn showed strong defensive potential, and he played a little better off the ball after Minnesota coach Tom Thibodeau began playing him alongside pass-first point guard Tyus Jones. It's true that point guards develop later than players at other positions, so we shouldn't think of Dunn as a finished product at age 23.
That said, no objective analysis of Dunn's rookie season suggests he's likely to develop into an NBA starting point guard, which is how the Bulls are almost certainly valuing him in this trade.
Then there's LaVine, who showed exciting scoring ability before a torn ACL ended his 2016-17 campaign in early February. His 18.9 points per game last season were the sixth most by a player age 22 or younger, trailing Timberwolves teammates Karl-Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins, All-Star Giannis Antetokounmpo, Devin Booker and Jabari Parker. LaVine accomplished that on good efficiency, posting a .576 true shooting percentage.
The problem is on the defensive end of the court. LaVine is a poor individual defender whose team defense instincts are lacking. He also generates few steals and is a nonfactor on the defensive glass. LaVine's minus-2.4 defensive RPM ranked in the league's bottom 30. To become something more than a potent sixth man, LaVine will have to improve defensively.
Worse yet, LaVine is entering the final season of his rookie contract. A realistic timetable for his recovery from ACL surgery makes it unlikely LaVine will be back for training camp, meaning Chicago will probably have to decide on a possible extension for him before seeing him take the court. The Bulls can wait for LaVine to become a restricted free agent and decide whether to match any offer, certainly, but at that point, he would be more likely to be fairly paid than the kind of bargain Chicago should have been seeking as part of a package for Butler.
Without being in the room for trade talks, it's tough to know what kind of offers the Bulls passed on to make this deal. But given that Dunn and LaVine should have relatively little trade value and Chicago had to give up its own first-round pick to move up just seven spots (a move equivalent to the value of the 23rd pick, per my trade value chart), it's hard to imagine there wasn't a better deal available.
If this truly was the best the Bulls could do for Butler right now, then I'm not sure I understand the urgency to move him. In the worst-case scenario, where Butler's trade value eroded further, Chicago could have just held on to Butler and tried to compete in the Eastern Conference during his prime.
I get the argument for moving Butler because the Bulls aren't particularly competitive with him, but not if this is all they could get in return. This package doesn't set Chicago up for a future any brighter than the eighth-seed purgatory the team was already in.
Minnesota Timberwolves: A+
For a year, we've been waiting for Thibodeau's regime to make a win-now move. The Timberwolves resisted last summer, spending modestly in free agency to conserve cap space for this year, and at the trade deadline. Now that this deal has finally come, it's far better than anyone could have imagined or perhaps even dreamed.
My fear was that Minnesota would continue to overvalue Dunn, moving starting point guard Ricky Rubio for pennies on the dollar to clear room for Dunn in the starting lineup. While we don't know if the Timberwolves will keep Rubio, the organization didn't hesitate to move on from Dunn when he fell short of expectations. And if you're as down on Dunn and LaVine as I am, the Timberwolves didn't do much to hurt their long-term future.
It's still a little early for Minnesota to really contend in the Western Conference. Wiggins is 22 and Towns won't turn 22 until November. But given their age, another year of learning Thibodeau's defense and their hope of improving their bad luck in close games, the Timberwolves were likely to improve by simply bringing back the same roster. Now, Minnesota should be considered heavy favorites to make the playoffs for the first time since reaching the 2004 Western Conference finals.
Amazingly, assuming Nikola Pekovic's salary is medically excluded (the Timberwolves recently waived the center, who didn't play at all last season due to injury) and Minnesota renounces the rights to restricted free agent Shabazz Muhammad, the team could still clear nearly $20 million in cap space to add to this group.
Barring a Rubio trade, the idea of pairing Paul Millsap with Towns in the frontcourt is probably off the table, but the Timberwolves can shop for a lower-cost upgrade at power forward to complement Towns and Gorgui Dieng. (One possibility? Nikola Mirotic, a restricted free agent who doesn't appear to be in the Bulls' plans now that they drafted Arizona forward Lauri Markkanen with the pick they acquired in this trade.)
While this mix isn't perfect -- Rubio, Butler and Wiggins don't offer enough shooting as a perimeter trio -- 45 wins is well within Minnesota's capability next season, and 50 wins is a distinct possibility. The Timberwolves have the next couple of years to try to win enough games to convince Butler to stick around long term. But that worry is for another day. As of tonight, Minnesota is a huge winner.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Well congrats Denver---you will be a lottery team again...... 
ffldrew
Footballguy
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Kev4029
Footballguy
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Kev4029
Footballguy
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Just giving Pollardsvision some numbers to explain my disgust. I want to see this as optimistically as he does, and I genuinely thank him for providing a counterpoint to my extreme distaste for this deal, but I just can not. It's objectively horrible.EGWe know...
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Lydon > Markkanen
- Status
