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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (1 Viewer)

Yeah that’s good advice. My bad, I don’t follow soccer enough so it didn’t occur to me. 
No worries at all - honestly one of us should have been more vocal about it at the time so I’m just as guilty.  This has been a lot of fun - thanks for setting it up and then getting out of the way and letting Getz and Hags do it.   ;)

 
Random musings on race and baseball below.

Hidden in the spoiler because some don’t want to have that conversation. That’s cool, keep scrolling.

:hijacked:
 

Recommended reading

On Sunday I attended (virtually by Zoom) a Puerto Rican church that’s in the East Village/Lower East Side of Manhattan. Took a minute to realize many of my friends had turned up in their national colors. 

Yo soy Boricua 🇵🇷 (yesterday was National Puerto Rican Day.)


Anyway, their ethnic and cultural identification was not, in any way, intended to be exclusive. Puerto Rican’s might be any mixture of Black, Caucasian American, Cuban, Dominican, European, Latin American, Native American - it’s pretty awesome. Nobody meant to offend or make me feel excluded. They were celebrating their heritage. Nuyoricans are a world unto themselves but I love how inclusive they are; come, celebrate life with us

But I definitely felt like an outsider, even though I know my brothers and sisters in Christ love me and accept me. It got me thinking about how seldom I have experienced that feeling in 58 years. For me, it was like a sample taste test of racism.

By now you’re thinking “what does this have to do with anything.” You might be tempted to say “I don’t see color.” But if you don’t see color you are missing out on God’s most beautiful creations in nature and the diversity of people made in His image.

Those of us who are white may chose to be a black ally or support BIPOC friends. But it’s a choice. We aren’t forced to experience the world in a particular way; we can sympathize with the fight against racism, but we will never know it.

Part of what’s going on (or SHOULD be going on introspectively) in the last two weeks...not just in the USA but all around the globe...is an opportunity for non-biracial and non-people of color to just shut up, listen, and learn. You cannot know what it is like. But you can stand alongside and try to understand.

___________________

One of the biggest problems with the MLB was the fact that some of the best baseball players in the world were not able to play in the league. Bullet Rogan, Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson and Cool Papa Bell had to play in the Negro Leagues because the MLB would not let African-Americans play.

Bias continued to play a role. Save for an aging Paige, there were few Black Aces in the Integration Era (1946-1960) and well into the Expansion Era (1961-1975.) In the first years after the desegregation of MLB, teams who drafted African American pitchers often converted them into position players; very few were allowed to continue pitching. It’s not seared into our national consciousness like “black quarterback” was for several decades, but the bias - not necessarily racism - was a constant undercurrent. This heavily influenced scouting and player development.

In the NL Don Newcombe, Sam Jones and Bob Gibson won 20 games It wasn’t until Mudcat Grant in 1965 that an AL black pitcher won 20 games, and that same year he became the first African American to win a World Series game.

Of course there great black Latin American in the expansion era, notably Juan Marachal and Luis Tiant. But the Black Ave continues to be almost a novelty item in MLB to the present day. The complete list of black pitchers who won 20 games, alphabetically:

Vida Blue (3)
Al Downing
Bob Gibson (5) 
Dwight Gooden
Mudcat Grant
Ferguson Jenkins (7)**
Sam Jones   
Don Newcombe (3)   
Mike Norris    
David Price  
J.R. Richard     
C.C. Sabathia 
Dave Stewart  
Dontrelle Willis    
Earl Wilson

**Canadian bit his ancestors were American slaves    
Bolded players won the Cy Young Award.

There have been 90 All Star Games since 1933 (no game 1945, two games 1959-62.) The first and only time two black pitchers started was 1971 in Detroit (the first game a majority of players were BIPOC - 17 blacks, 10 Latinos.) Doc Ellis started for the NL, Vida Blue was having a sensational season on par with the rookie seasons of Mark Fidrych and Fernando Valenzuela for national hysteria.

15 Black Aces in 73 seasons of integrated MLB? 7 Cy Young Awards? That’s just flat crazy.

Again, it’s not so much racism as it is an underlying, beneath the surface bias that “athletic” blacks are best suited for skill position that take advantage of their all around skill. It’s never spoken but the bias is unless they have a truly exceptional arm most blacks ought to be in everyday positional players.

My only point is to raise awareness and inform. Until a few years ago I didn’t even know what Juneteenth or 1619 meant. Before you read this post, did you even know Black Aces was a thing? Did you ever realize how few black pitching stars there have been? But if you’re AA you might be acutely aware, but it’s just one of those things that isn’t ever brought up in mixed company.

Don’t @ me. We can continue the conversation via PM or in the PSF. Let’s not pollute this great thread.

Peace y’all.
 
So I've had 20 of my first 30 ranked so far for a total surplus value of -28.

I've had 22 of my last 30 ranked for a total surplus value of 50.

Hmmm...

 
Hello everyone, I am judging in reponse to @Getzlaf15 and this is the MEN'S SPORTS - Greatest Soccer Goalie category. Hopefully the distance between final points give an indication of relative greatness.

See page 110 part 1 for scoring.

10) EDWIN VAN DER SAR  (7 points)  INTL CAPS 5.85 + INTL COMPS 2.4 + DOMESTIC 15.92 + CONT CUPS 4.5 + AWARDS 2.7 = 31.37

van der Sar was part of the golden generation in the 90s for Ajax in Amsterdam, producing him alongside world talents like Frank Rijkaard, Clarence Seedorf, Marc Overmars and many others who would beat Milan in the 1995 Champions League final. He won 130 caps for the Netherlands over 15 years and only missed one tournament in his whole career with them, the 2002 World Cup after failing to qualify. He has the second highest domestic score on this list; over 600 games with Ajax, Juventus, Fulham and Manchester United combined, winning 4 Dutch league titles and 4 English league titles and a Champions League with each of them. His 6'6" stature and skill with the ball at his feet revolutionized the concept of a sweeper-keeper, and he launched counterattacks effectively with his distribution. The Netherlands made it to 3 semifinals with him playing and lost all of them, the 1998 World Cup against Brazil, Euro 2000 against Italy where he kept a clean sheet and his team missed 2 (2!) penalties in regulation time, and Euro 2004 against Portugal. van der Sar highlights

9) GORDON BANKS  (8 points)  INTL CAPS 2.92 + INTL COMPS 7.4 + DOMESTIC 4.5 + CONT CUPS 0 + AWARDS 20.3 = 35.12

Football came home 54 years ago in the 1966 World Cup final which for most of the tournament Banks was just a bystander. 4 clean sheets in the first 4 games in the tournament ended when Portuguese legend Eusebio converted a penalty, which was the first goal Banks conceded for England in 721 minutes, which is a record still held today for English goalkeepers. They won 2-1 against Portugal and went to extra time at 2-2 against West Germany, where Geoff Hurst scores 2 goals for the hosts and to this day remains the only international tournament England has won. A car crash in 1972 cost him the sight of his right eye and that virtually ended his professional career. He played 2 seasons for Fort Lauderdale in the NASL in 1977-78 and won the league's goalkeeper of the year award with only being able to see in one eye. The IFFHS named him the second best goalkeeper of the 20th century.

😎 PETER SCHMEICHEL  (9 points)  INTL CAPS 3.78 + INTL COMPS 3.3 + DOMESTIC 11.64 + CONT CUPS 1.8 + AWARDS 19 = 39.52

Let me tell you the story of the Danish national team in the 90s. in the 1994 World Cup UEFA qualification group 3, the top 2 of 7 get promoted. Spain tops the group with 19 points and both Ireland and Denmark have 18 points. For the tiebreaker, both teams have +13 goal differential. Ireland goes to the 1994 World Cup on goals scored with 19 ahead of Denmark's 15, even though Denmark conceded JUST 2 GOALS in 12 games. Schmeichel started all 12 games. In the 1990 UEFA World Cup qualification group 1 the top team of 4 gets promoted along with the 2 best second place teams in groups with 4 teams, of which there are 3 groups. Denmark, top of the group with 8 points after 5 games plays 2nd place Romania with 7 points in the final game of qualification to potentially advance to the World Cup. All Denmark needs to do is draw or win this one game. They go up 1-0 after 6 minutes and give up 3 unanswered to put Romania top of the group with 8. Of the 3 countries that were in groups of 4 teams and placed 2nd in those groups, West Germany finishes with 9 points and England also with 9 points. Denmark has 8 and therefore does not advance to the World Cup. Guess who started all their games in net for both of those tournaments? Yep.

This isn't the worst part. THEY WON THE 1992 EUROS AGAINST DEFENDING WORLD CUP CHAMPIONS GERMANY. GUESS WHO'S PLAYING. Oh yeah by the way he won 5 titles with Manchester United and the 1999 Champions League with THAT Manchester United team. And he was WBG 2 times with 2 runner ups. And 7th best goalkeeper of the 20th century.

7) MANUEL NEUER  (10 points)  INTL CAPS 4.6 + INTL COMPS 7.4 + DOMESTIC 13.12 + CONT CUPS 1.8 + AWARDS 19.5 = 46.42

You remember where you were when Germany beat Brazil 7-1? He does. Blah blah 2014 World Cup winner, 7x Bundesliga Champion in a row, 2013 Champions League winner, 2014 Ballon d'Or 3rd place, 4x WBG, and 2x WBG runner up, sweeper keeper of the forever (seriously watch his highlights) blah blah. It wouldn't be very German of me if I didn't list all his accomplishments in an efficient manner.

6) JOSEF "SEPP" MAIER  (11 points)  INTL CAPS 4.8 + INTL COMPS 12.7 + DOMESTIC 9.78 + CONT CUPS 5.4 + AWARDS 15.9 = 48.58

More German efficiency, except this one also was a World Cup winner, runner up and 3rd place, and a Euro winner and runner up. Started every single one of Bayern Munich's games from 1966 to 1979, 442 consecutive games which is still a record for the Bundesliga, and earned them 4 German league titles and 4 German cups, and is joint top of this list with 3 Champions League (European Champions Clubs' Cup) titles. Also rated the 4th best goalkeeper of the 20th century and a World Soccer Magazine Top 100 Greatest Footballer of All Time. He went on to coach goalkeeping for club and country and was the mentor for the next keeper on this list.

part 3 soon(TM)

 
BobbyLayne said:
16. (1 point) LF Pete Rose

FINAL THOUGHTS - Was this a homer pick by a Ohioan? I mean he was definitely getting drafted but he is a polarizing figure. Was kind of shocked he came off relatively early. In the end my placement was based on advanced stats plus nobody ever thought he was the best player in baseball (or his team) at any time in his career. The lifetime ban wasn’t a factor, I simply don’t think he is better than anyone else drafted for this category.
Nope, just making sure I picked as many 1's as possible. 🤣

I did not expect Pete to get a 1 in this cat - was probably thinking more the middle. I kind of went by "ok, we're picking teams - who do you want?" And once the obvious names went  - Babe and Willie and Teddy Ballgame (and not all of them are in this cat, I believe) - I'd be pretty happy plugging Pete in there. Now you could say this for almost every guy on this list, but really, you'd pick Kaline (etc) over Pete Rose?

Not complaining though - judging these is hard, and you put in the work. Onward to my next 1!   

 
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Nope, just making sure I picked as many 1's as possible. 🤣

I did not expect Pete to get a 1 in this cat - was probably thinking more the middle. I kind of went by "ok, we're picking teams - who do you want?" And once the obvious names went  - Babe and Willie and Teddy Ballgame (and not all of them are in this cat, I believe) - I'd be pretty happy plugging Pete in there. Now you could say this for almost every guy on this list, but really, you'd pick Kaline (etc) over Pete Rose?

Not complaining though - judging these is hard, and you put in the work. Onward to my next 1!   
Yeah I was admittedly surprised to be Pete behind Kaline and Carew (as much as I love Carew). I think I'd have taken Pete over Grove as well. 

 
So I've had 20 of my first 30 ranked so far for a total surplus value of -28.

I've had 22 of my last 30 ranked for a total surplus value of 50.

Hmmm...
This is somewhat understandable and I am not quite sure how bad/good that is.  For example, your pick in the first round is likely the first chosen in their category.  There is no positive available value for that pick.  It is either right on or negative so your early picks are much more likely to go negative even if they score well.

Where you later picks have much more chance to go positive than negative.  So almost by definition your distribution is probably common to some degree.  I have my notes on value at home so I will take a look tonight and see where I stack up in those numbers.  I also have had only 3 of my first 10 picks ranked so I am due for some negative surplus value. 

 
@BobbyLayne is doing a hell of a job though and I appreciate the time commitment. 
I wish I could like this comment more than once.  MVP of the judging realm so far (still time to change that though...hahah).

All the judges have been outstanding and really have justified their positions nicely in this highly subjective process.  Outstanding work by all of the judges thus far.

 
Yeah I was admittedly surprised to be Pete behind Kaline and Carew (as much as I love Carew). I think I'd have taken Pete over Grove as well. 
I think Rose is a bit overrated as far as an all time great.  He was a compiler that played hard and gave it his all.  But I don't think he was really outstanding at anything other than hustle (not that there is anything wrong with that).   

 
I think Rose is a bit overrated as far as an all time great.  He was a compiler that played hard and gave it his all.  But I don't think he was really outstanding at anything other than hustle (not that there is anything wrong with that).   
There's enough bolded here that says he was pretty darn good. He led the league in hits seven times, doubles 5x. BA 3x.  15 seasons with a .300+ BA. 

I do get he's more known for sheer hustle and playing everyday than the other-worldly 5-tool talent a lot of guys had. He's not Willie Mays or Mike Trout by any stretch. But if I'm starting a franchise and get Pete or Kaline for 20 years? Give me Pete all day. (I'm picking on Kaline - prettymuch I take Pete in that context over the bottom of the list.) 

But that's me - the subjectivity and the debate is what makes this fun. A few guys thought I had Seaver too low (I probably did), and Pedro too high (I definitely did not). All good.  

 
Greatest NFL Moment or Game

1 point - Calvin "Megatron" Johnson goes off on the Dallas Cowboys

  • What makes it great:

    329 yards receiving - I can't even do this in Madden

    Megatron gained more yards than at least 10 teams that Sunday

[*]This game also featured the nifty fake spike from Stafford at the end to clinch it


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • October 27, 2013 - was some random-### Sunday for two 4-3 teams. It's an eye-popping stat, but it stops there really

2 points - Gale Sayers scores 6 (six) touchdowns against the 49ers

  • What makes it great:

    Wrigley Field was a muddy slop

    Sayers is out there on ice skates while everyone else is moving in molasses

[*]Sayers did it all

  • Scored a touchdown via rush, reception and punt return

    Had the 49ers been able to move the ball, he may have hit for the cycle


[*]He was a rookie!

  • This was the cherry on top of Sayers' consensus Rookie of the Year award


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • Week 13 game, 8-4 Bears vs 7-5 49ers

    If my calculations are correct, it looks like the Bears were 2 games out of a potential divisional tie with two weeks left to play.
  • Sayers' effort propelled his team to a win when they needed it, but I'm not sure they had any chance of forcing a tie with either the Colts or Packers.


3 points - Norm Van Brocklin sets a single-game record that stands to this day!

  • What makes it great:

    We're just making up numbers now. 329 receiving yards, 6 touchdowns scored... but 554 passing yards?!
  • The record has stood for AGES

    On September 28 of this year, it will have been 69 years

    nice


[*]66% completion rate on only 41 pass attempts

  • That's 20.5 YPC and 13.5 YPA (wowzers)

[*]Van Brocklin was the Rams' backup!

[*]This was opening night, and the Rams took this win right on to titletown

  • Norm Van Brocklin came in late in the 4th quarter of that game to throw the go-ahead, championship-winning score on a 73-yard pass


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • Certainly the greatest of the three selected "individual stat" games. When we talk about the record books in football, in my humble opinion it's far often more about season-long or career-based accomplishments. A single regular season game doesn't mean that much in the wider scope of the NFL and any greatness thereof.



Enter two regular season events just as I open my big mouth...

4 points - The debut of Monday Night Football

  • What makes it great:

    Hank Jr, basically ;)

[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • This certainly propels football into a spotlight, and might be the final nail in the coffin for baseball in the pastime race. A hallowed, nationally televised game each week that everyone can talk about the next day. Bring out the glitz and glam, introduce us to players we may not be familiar with, the list goes on. It's also a pretty obvious cash grab (who can blame 'em tho). But really, what makes football great isn't the night you watch it on, but what happens when you're watching.

5 points - The NFL resumes its season on 9/23/2001, and the Giants and Jets return to the Meadowlands on 9/30/2001 and 10/1/2001

  • What makes it great:

    Sports, bruh

    I can't do it more justice than NYC area natives. Watch this playlist: The Timeline: 9/11


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • These three categories are ####### impossible to grade. The tributes, the giant flags, the emotion, it's all so very moving. I don't want to go off the deep-end on the commercialization of our first responders and military, because in the weeks following the attacks on the towers, America really used unifying moments like these two weeks to pick itself up off the ground after taking two right on the chin. Perhaps this moves up over time, or maybe it lessens. Who knows, it moved all over my board before settling at five points.

 
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Honorable Mention of a regular season moment that prooooooobably would have placed top 10.

That catch from Odell Beckham, Jr. on MNF SNF. Just a ridiculous exhibition of why the tippy top athletes are basically superheroes.

 
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Honorable Mention of a regular season moment that prooooooobably would have placed top 10.

That catch from Odell Beckham, Jr. on MNF. Just a ridiculous exhibition of why the tippy top athletes are basically superheroes.
Interesting call. A very memorable moment and it was on prime time but also was a pretty unimportant game mid season. I thought these moments were tough to guess how they would be judged. Uniqueness? Coolness? Shock? Legacy? Long term impact? I’m curious to to see how the rest shake out.

 
Interesting call. A very memorable moment and it was on prime time but also was a pretty unimportant game mid season. I thought these moments were tough to guess how they would be judged. Uniqueness? Coolness? Shock? Legacy? Long term impact? I’m curious to to see how the rest shake out.
As has been mentioned many times in the thread, the moments/games categories got twisted from some of the very first picks off the board. IMO I remember the OBJ catch as vividly as basically any other moment in the NFL over the past decade, and that hastacountfersumthin.

 
TL; DR

narrative & ranking below for category 2

Category 2: Greatest ML Baseball Player    
(concluded)


Tier 2

NOTE: These guys might have been 6th-9th if Lou Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Bobby Bonds and Willie Mays were drafted for Category 2.

Super elite superstars 

5. (12 points) RF Stan Musial

MVP 3x, Batting Title 7x, led league 2B 8x (MLB record), OPS 7x, H 6x, SLG 6x, TB 6x, OPS+ 6x, R 5x, 3B 5x, IBB 5x, RBI 2x, BB 1x, 22 seasons 1B(8)-LF(7)-RF(6)-CF(1), All Star 20x (played 24 ASG), 4th man to be First Ballot Hall of Fame. All time ranks: TB 2nd, 2B 3rd, XBH 3rd, IBB 3rd, H 4th, G 6th, RBI 8th, R 10th, WAR 11th, BB 13th, OPS 13th, OPS+ 15th, SLG 16th, Singles 19th, 3B 19th, OBP 23rd, AVG 30th, HR 32nd. 4 Pennants, 3 WSC (.256/.347/.395).

128.3 / 127.8 WAR   
96.3 JAWS   
.435 wOBA   
158 wRC   
159 OPS

A 20-time All-Star and one of the best all-around offensive players to ever play the game, Stan "The Man" Musial finished his 22-year career with a .331/.417/.559 line to go along with 475 home runs, 1,951 RBI and 1,949 runs scored.

His 3,630 hits are good for fourth all time, as he won seven batting titles and led the National League in hits six different times. His 725 doubles are also good for third on the all-time list, and his 6,134 total bases are second only to Hank Aaron. Musial took home NL MVP honors in 1943, 1946 and 1948, and he spent his entire career with the Cardinals.

FINAL THOUGHTS: Lost one year to WWII, very consistent player with phenomenal hitting stats. Adequate defensively. Stayed healthy and productive well into his 40s. Beloved in St Louis where he played his entire career.

4. (13 points) LF Ted Williams

MVP 2x, Triple Crown 2x, Batting Title 6x, led league OBP 12x, OPS 10x, SLG 9x, OPS+ 9x, BB 8x, IBB 7x, TB 6x, R 6x, HR 4x, RBI 4x, 2B 2x, 19 seasons LF(18)-RF(1), All Star 17x (played 19 ASG), 3rd man to be First Ballot Hall of Fame. All time ranks: OBP 1st, SLG 2nd, OPS 2nd, OPS+ 2nd, BB 4th, AVG 8th, IBB 8th, WAR 14th, RBI 15th, XBH 19th, R 20th, HR 20th, TB 24th, 2B 46th, H 77th, G 118th. 1 Pennants, 0 WSC (.200/.333/.200).

121.9 / 130.4 WAR    
94.9 JAWS    
.493 wOBA    
188 wRC+    
190 OPS+ 

Perhaps the best pure hitter the game has ever seen, Ted Williams is the last player to register a .400 batting average, as he hit .406 as a 22-year-old in 1941. That was was the first of what would be six batting titles he won, his last in 1957 came at age 38, a remarkable season that saw him the slash line triple crown with .388/526/.731.

Hit 521 home runs with 1,839 RBI and 1,798 runs scored. His career line of .344/.482/.634 is as impressive as any in baseball history, and it could be a long time if ever before we see another hitter like Williams.

FINAL THOUGHTS - Lost 5 years to WWII and Korean War or he’d be battling the Babe for WAR supremacy. Teddy Ballgame is probably the best all around hitter ever seen. Could read the label of a 78 rpm record while it was playing. But he wasn’t an all around player. Could have pushed him to 2nd but I’d have to ignore his iron glove and plodding base running. Won 2 MVPs but you could make a case he should have won 5 if he wasn’t always feuding with the press (sportswriters vote on the award.)

Tier 1

NOTE: maybe would have ranked Mays 2nd and Bonds 3rd had they been in the category.

Legends of the Game

3. (14 points) CF Ty Cobb

MVP 1x, Triple Crown 1x, Batting Title 12x (9 consecutive), led league OPS+ 12x, OPS 10x, SLG 8x, TB 6x, SB 6x, R 5x, RBI 4x, 3B 4x, 2B 3x, HR 1x, 24 seasons CF(19)-RF(5), led inaugural 1936 Hall of Fame voting with 98.2%. All time ranks: AVG 1st, R 2nd, H 2nd, Singles 2nd, 3B 3rd, 2B 4th, SB 4th, G 5th, TB 6th, WAR 6th, RBI 9th, OBP 9th, OPS+ 10th, XBH 15th, OPS 23rd, BB 54th, SLG 80th, HBP 109th. 3 Pennants, 0 WSC (.262/.314/.364).

151.0 / 149.3 WAR
110.0 JAWS    
.445 wOBA    
165 wRC+   
168 OPS+

Despite his prickly personality, Ty Cobb is undoubtedly one of the best to ever play the game, and his .366 career batting average is the highest mark in baseball history. Career slash .366/.433/.512.

He won 12 batting titles and hit over .400 three times on his way to 4,189 career hits. He added 724 doubles, 295 triples and 117 home runs while driving in 1,938 runs and scoring 2,246. Add in 897 stolen bases and it's hard to argue against Cobb being one of the best offensive players in the history of the game.

FINAL THOUGHTS: Would rank around 10,000th as a human who happened to have played MLB, and thats IF we accept recent biographies attempting to rehabilitate him.  At a minimum he was the player fans loved to hate, and his selfish drive (fierce competitiveness if you’re feeling charitable) made for a difficult teammate.

(ASIDE - When it comes to historical truth, always give more weight to contemporaneous accounts, the less credibility to those accounts written decades later because they are furthest from original accounts. Exception when new original source material is discovered.) 

As a player I had him either 2nd or 3rd, 5th if everyone is included in the category. The best player in the Dead Ball era (1901-1919) by a good margin.

2. (15 points) RF Hank Aaron

MVP, Batting Title 2x, 3 Gold Gloves, led league TB 8x, 2B 4x, HR 4x, RBI 4x, SLG 4x, R 3x, OPS 3x, OPS+ 3x, H 2x, IBB 1x, 23 seasons RF(15)-LF(3)-1B(2)-DH(2)-CF(1), All Star 21x (played 25 ASG), 12th man to be First Ballot Hall of Fame. All time ranks: RBI 1st, OBP 1st, XBH 1st, TB 1st, HR 2nd, SLG 2nd, OPS+ 2nd, G 3rd, H 3rd, R T4th, IBB 4th, WAR 7th, Power-Speed# 8th, 2B 13th, Singles 14th, BB 27th, OPS 39th, AVG 145th, 3B 166th. 3 postseasons, 2 Pennants, 1 WSC (17 G 6-16.362/.405/.710).

143.1 / 136.3 WAR   
101.7 JAWS   
.403 wOBA    
153 wRC+    
155 OPS+ 

Still the rightful home run king in many people's minds, Hank Aaron finished his 23-year career with 755 home runs and a still-record 2,297 RBI. He is also the all-time leader in total bases by a wide margin with 6,856, as he added 624 doubles and 98 triples to his home run output. 3 Gold Gloves in RF. 8 seasons in the Top Ten SB (30-30 1x, 20-20 5x.)

He led the league in home runs just four times, but he was a model of consistency with 15 seasons in which he launched 30 or more. His 3,771 hits are good for third all time, and his .305/.374/.555 line is impressive considering how long he played. He made a record 21 All-Star appearances (25 ASG played) and won NL MVP honors in 1957.

It wasn’t until 1970-71 that we realized it was going to be him. In the late 50s to early expansion, some thought Mantle might get there. For most of the mid-to-late 1960s it was widely expected Willie Mays - a national beloved figure - had the best shot at passing the Babe as the all time Home Run King. Almost came as a surprise steady Henry was the guy who never slowed down until the very end.

Similar to Kaline in that he never had that rare, explosive production season. Rarely slumped and never seemed to have a bad year. Not elite defensively like Roberto Clemente or Mr Tiger but above average. Good speed and smart, sound player throughout his career.

Classy man, elite talent and production, durable and consistent, unassuming and without fanfare while playing in secondary markets.

FINAL THOUGHTS: Had him as low as 5th off SABR offensive stats but decided to move him up because he was a more complete player than Musial or Williams. Impressive consistency and superior conditioning led to enormous compiled standard stats. 

Affable, low key good guy who handled death threats with aplomb as he approached Ruth’s record.

1. (16 points) RF Babe Ruth

Batting Title 1x, led league  OPS 13x, OPS+ 12x, HR 12x, BB 11x, SLG 10x, R 8x, TB 6x, RBI 5x, 22 seasons RF(12)-LF(6)-P(4), 2 ASG, 2nd in inaugural 1936 class Hall of Fame voting (95.1%.) All time ranks BATTING: WAR 1st, SLG 1st, OPS 1st, OPS+ 1st, OBP 1st, XBH 1st, RBI 2nd, HR 3rd, BB 3rd, R T4th, TB 4th, IBB 4th, AVG 10th, H 45th, G 58th, 2B 58th, 3B 71st, Power-Speed# 85th, 3B 166th, PITCHING: WPct 12th, H/9 15th, ERA 17th, FIP 73rd, WHIP 83rd, ERA+ 97th. 10 Pennants, 7 WSC (41 G 15-33.326/.470/1.214; 3-0, 0.87).

As a batter:
168.4 / 182.5 WAR    
123.5 JAWS   
.513 wOBA   
197 wRC+   
206 OPS+

As a pitcher:   
122 ERA+    
2.809 FIP 

Baseball history may be divided into six epochs:

Pioneer / NL era: 1876-1900   
Dead Ball era: 1901-1919   
Live Ball era: 1920-1945   
Postwar / Integration era: 1946-1960.   
Expansion era: 1961-1975  
Free Agency era: 1976-1993   
Steroids era: 1994-2013**   
Modern era: 2014-2019

**debatable, but I would say the Braun & Rodriguez suspensions were milestone cases

At any rate, it’s difficult to compare players across eras.  If anyone transcends era, it is Babe Ruth.

The greatest the game ever has and likely ever will see, Ruth revolutionized the sport and made the home run what it is today. There were seasons early on where he out-homered entire teams, and when all was said and done, he finished his career with 714 long balls.

He added to that a .342/.474/.690 line that included 2,220 RBI and 2,174 runs scored, and he won 12 home run titles.

It was his time on the mound that truly separates him from the pack, though, as he was a Hall of Fame-caliber pitcher before moving to the outfield full-time. He finished his Dead Ball era pitching career 94-46 with a 2.28 ERA, and he was 3-0 with a 0.87 ERA in three World Series starts.

Simply put, Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time.

Final Thoughts: Easy placement IMHO.

1. (16 POINTS) George Herman “Babe” Ruth   
2. (15 POINTS) Henry Louis “Hammering Hank” Aaron    
3. (14 POINTS) Tyrus Raymond “The Georgia Peach” Cobb   
4. (13 POINTS) Theodore Samuel “Teddy Ballgame” Williams   
5. (12 POINTS) Stanley Frank “Stan the Man” Musial   
6. (11 POINTS) Michael Nelson Trout   
7. (10 POINTS) José Alberto Pujols Alcántara   
8. (9 POINTS) George Kenneth “The Kid” Griffey Jr.   
9. (8 POINTS) Albert William Kaline   
10. (7 POINTS) Grover Cleveland “Old Pete” Alexander    
11. (6 POINTS) Robert Moses “Lefty” Grove   
12. (5 POINTS) Willie Lee McCovey   
13. (4 POINTS) Joseph Jefferson “Shoeless Joe” Jackson   
14. (3 POINTS) Edward Trowbridge “Cocky” Collins, Sr.   
15. (2 POINTS) Rodney Cline Carew   
16. (1 POINT) Peter Edward “Charlie Hustle” Rose

Alright, I’m done done with judging. I love history, research and writing and appreciate you indulging my verbosity. It’s been a fun diversion. Thank you @timschochet for starting the draft.
 
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Nicely done. Was hoping that Stan would be ahead of Cobb simply because he was a nicer person. 
Never gave much thought to moving Musial. We’re missing half of the Top Ten because they’re in other categories. The 5 in the top two tiers are a good ways in front of Griffey & Pujols. Among the top 5 I moved them around a lot, but the highest I had Stan was 5th with Henry 4th (first pass looking mostly at lifetime advanced.)

________________

Cobb has been problematic for baseball from Go. He’s not the guy you want as the sports ambassador or elder statesman. Ruth died young (53) in 1947, Cobb would live until late 1961 (74). He managed to make public statements in the early 50s about negroes playing MLB which were condescending but largely favorable & positively received in the contemporaneous black press.

You can go to the HoF and MLB sites and find essay about “rethinking Cobb” because there’s circumstantial evidence he might not have killed a guy the night before a game (the city morgue had no cases of blunt force trauma deaths that summer.) Or teammates making statements 20-30-40 years after the fact to “debunk” myths.

I’ve seen this kind of malarkey frequently in the historiography of the ACW. Lost Cause Confederates elevating Lee to Christ figure status, romanticizing armed rebellion. No thanks.

________________ 

Anyway, treated Cobb’s depravity the same as restricted players who were banned - ignore it, judge what they did on the field.

 
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Standings after BobbyLayne ranked MLB Greatest Players - 

 

--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL

1 --Ilov80s--397--3--4--1=8

2 --Gally--388--3--1--3=7

3 --tuffnutt--384--4--1--6=11 (bronze)

4 --AAABatteries--378--3--3--4=10 (silver)

5 --Zow--376--3--3--5=11

6 --DougB--373--5--2--2=9

7 --Getzlaf15--359--1--5--3=9

8 --joffer--355--4--3--1=8 (gold)

9 --otb_lifer--347--0--2--2=4

10 -Long Ball Larry--338--2--2--3=7

11 -timschochet--333--2--2--3=7

12 -jwb--330--2--4--2=8

13 -wikkidpissah--319--2--1--4=7

14 -Jagov--311--2--5--0=7

15 -higgins--303--1--1--2=4

16 -Kal El--284--4--2--0=6

 
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So I've had 20 of my first 30 ranked so far for a total surplus value of -28.

I've had 22 of my last 30 ranked for a total surplus value of 50.

Hmmm...
I have had 18 of my top 30 ranked for a surplus value of +1.  My raw score is 203 pts for those 18 players.

I have had 23 of my last 30 ranked for a surplus value of +76.  My raw score is 185 pts for those 23 players.

I have no idea if that is good or bad or if it is any indication of how I will finish.

 
So I was kind of trying to save the all-around for near the end or last as it's arguably the "greatest" category. I have begun to think about it, though, and I really believe there's a clear top tier of three: Bo Jackson, Jim Brown, and Jim Thorpe. I genuinely believe that Thorpe is the greatest all-around athlete to ever grace this planet but can most certainly see arguments for Bo and Brown (and, of course, I drafted Thorpe). As such I'm really uncomfortable rating him these three. Accordingly, I propose two options: 

1. Put it to a vote in the FFA for these top 3 and go with the poll results for the order and continue on ranking. 

2. Turn the category over to our MVP judge @BobbyLayne (if he'll do it). 

Anybody have a strong preference or objection to either?

 
So I was kind of trying to save the all-around for near the end or last as it's arguably the "greatest" category. I have begun to think about it, though, and I really believe there's a clear top tier of three: Bo Jackson, Jim Brown, and Jim Thorpe. I genuinely believe that Thorpe is the greatest all-around athlete to ever grace this planet but can most certainly see arguments for Bo and Brown (and, of course, I drafted Thorpe). As such I'm really uncomfortable rating him these three. Accordingly, I propose two options: 

1. Put it to a vote in the FFA for these top 3 and go with the poll results for the order and continue on ranking. 

2. Turn the category over to our MVP judge @BobbyLayne (if he'll do it). 

Anybody have a strong preference or objection to either?
just do it, sweetmeat - if JB being the best ever in two sports dont do it for you, if you dont think bo knows nothin', take your guy or whatever. aint gonna hold it against half as much as rating the the only non-yankee 3peaters in baseball history 16th the day i turned the cat over to you to judge, so put on your bigboy pants and make a choice

 
So I was kind of trying to save the all-around for near the end or last as it's arguably the "greatest" category. I have begun to think about it, though, and I really believe there's a clear top tier of three: Bo Jackson, Jim Brown, and Jim Thorpe. I genuinely believe that Thorpe is the greatest all-around athlete to ever grace this planet but can most certainly see arguments for Bo and Brown (and, of course, I drafted Thorpe). As such I'm really uncomfortable rating him these three. Accordingly, I propose two options: 

1. Put it to a vote in the FFA for these top 3 and go with the poll results for the order and continue on ranking. 

2. Turn the category over to our MVP judge @BobbyLayne (if he'll do it). 

Anybody have a strong preference or objection to either?
Why don't you just do all the rankings and then let someone else slot Jim Thorpe?  

 
So I was kind of trying to save the all-around for near the end or last as it's arguably the "greatest" category. I have begun to think about it, though, and I really believe there's a clear top tier of three: Bo Jackson, Jim Brown, and Jim Thorpe. I genuinely believe that Thorpe is the greatest all-around athlete to ever grace this planet but can most certainly see arguments for Bo and Brown (and, of course, I drafted Thorpe). As such I'm really uncomfortable rating him these three. Accordingly, I propose two options: 

1. Put it to a vote in the FFA for these top 3 and go with the poll results for the order and continue on ranking. 

2. Turn the category over to our MVP judge @BobbyLayne (if he'll do it). 

Anybody have a strong preference or objection to either?
Those picks are in 3rd, 5th and 13 th place right now (not in that order).  IF anyone disagrees, then Tim said he would decide.  I'd also post them ASAP.  You are the only one in Top 6 judging a category.    I'm in 7th and probably will wind up there.  

 
So I was kind of trying to save the all-around for near the end or last as it's arguably the "greatest" category. I have begun to think about it, though, and I really believe there's a clear top tier of three: Bo Jackson, Jim Brown, and Jim Thorpe. I genuinely believe that Thorpe is the greatest all-around athlete to ever grace this planet but can most certainly see arguments for Bo and Brown (and, of course, I drafted Thorpe). As such I'm really uncomfortable rating him these three. Accordingly, I propose two options: 

1. Put it to a vote in the FFA for these top 3 and go with the poll results for the order and continue on ranking. 

2. Turn the category over to our MVP judge @BobbyLayne (if he'll do it). 

Anybody have a strong preference or objection to either?
Just do it

 
Nope, just making sure I picked as many 1's as possible. 🤣

I did not expect Pete to get a 1 in this cat - was probably thinking more the middle. I kind of went by "ok, we're picking teams - who do you want?" And once the obvious names went  - Babe and Willie and Teddy Ballgame (and not all of them are in this cat, I believe) - I'd be pretty happy plugging Pete in there. Now you could say this for almost every guy on this list, but really, you'd pick Kaline (etc) over Pete Rose?

Not complaining though - judging these is hard, and you put in the work. Onward to my next 1!   
Yeah I was admittedly surprised to be Pete behind Kaline and Carew (as much as I love Carew). I think I'd have taken Pete over Grove as well.
Mostly came down to the advanced stats for Rose.

Wins Above Replacement (WAR)
Jaffe Wins Above Replacement Score (JAWS)   
weighted on-base average (wOBA)  
weighted runs created plus (wRC+)   
adjusted OPS (OPS+)

He was 14th out of 14 in three of those (wOBA, wRC+, OPS+.)

JAWS (shorthand - HoF worthiness) he beat out Joe Jackson for 13th place.

WAR - Carew leads in bWAR, Rose in fWAR in the battle for 13th/14th.

(Jackson beats out everyone in wOBA / wRC+ / OPS+ except Ruth, Cobb, Williams & Trout.)

__________________

Grove’s MLB Career didn’t start until he was almost 25, because the owner of the Baltimore & Ohio railroad team refused to sell him to MLB teams. He won 111 games 1920-24 in the minors before the Philadelphia A’s paid $100,600 for him. During those minor league years teams would often play B&O on their way from Florida spring training to their hometowns for Opening Day. Grove struck out Babe Ruth 9 out of 11 times in those exhibitions.

Besides having the best win percentage (.680) of any 300 game winner, Lefty was never in the top ten for losses (no other 300 club member can say that.) 7 strikeout crowns to start his career, 5 ERA titles in his first 8 seasons (two Triple Crowns b2b.) In those years he just blew everyone away with his fastball.

After a sore arm in 1934, Grove lost his fastball and had to rely on his curveball, location, changing speeds. He was far less dominant but in many ways he became a much better pitcher. Astonishingly, he won 4 more ERA crowns 1935-39 as a junkballer.

__________________

more on Rose below.

Rose’s all time ranks are a function of G / AB / PA. He’s up 250-500 games and 1700-3000 AB on the players he passed late in his career.

Pete played 24 years and usually batted 1 or 2, on teams that were consistently in the top third offensively. Rarely hurt. Not surprising then he had 17 seasons with 700+ plate appearances. Every season he has bolded numbers at BR - led the league - for R, H, 2B were seasons with 730+ PA (with one exception - 1968 led in H with 692 PA.)

His last 5 years he played 625 G and had a slash line of .261/.348/.315. Those were important years for the legacy though - 559 H, 250 R, 74 2B.

If he had went out on top (1981) he’d still top 5 in most of his best counting categories (almost 3700 H.) By playing 5 years past his prime he rose to 1st/2nd in G AB R 2B and of course ALL TIME HIT KING.

Because Pete Rose the manager penciled in Pete Rose the below average 1B for 501 PA in 1985 he passed Cobb (who has played 500 less games.) The Reds were in contention that year and 44 year old Rose should have been sitting in favor of the resurgent 43 year old Tony Perez (.328 in 207 PA with much better power.)

1986, when you could make a legitimate case for him being the worst player in MLB, Manager Pete Rose gave Pete Rose the has been player 272 more PA. During the last 5 years his career AVG dropped from .310 (~105th) to .303 (171st - and 83 of those players have 6500+ AB.) 

He stuck around. Congrats?

Great player, you betcha. All time great? IDK for almost the entirety of his career he was the 3rd or 4th best player on his own team.

Early on Frank Robinson was top dog and young Vada Pinson was a much better player. Rose was the Reds best player on mediocre teams ‘67-‘68.

Then the Reds added Bench, Morgan, Perez, and later still, Foster. Morgan and Bench were consistently better, and both were better base stealers & base runners (Johnny always had better SB/CS Numbers.) Perez seemed to always drive in 90+, huge contributor.

On the Phillies, there’s no comparison between Mike Schmidt and Rose.
 
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So I was kind of trying to save the all-around for near the end or last as it's arguably the "greatest" category. I have begun to think about it, though, and I really believe there's a clear top tier of three: Bo Jackson, Jim Brown, and Jim Thorpe. I genuinely believe that Thorpe is the greatest all-around athlete to ever grace this planet but can most certainly see arguments for Bo and Brown (and, of course, I drafted Thorpe). As such I'm really uncomfortable rating him these three. Accordingly, I propose two options: 

1. Put it to a vote in the FFA for these top 3 and go with the poll results for the order and continue on ranking. 

2. Turn the category over to our MVP judge @BobbyLayne (if he'll do it). 

Anybody have a strong preference or objection to either?
I had Thorpe ranked first in that category so no shame in that ranking 

 
I had Thorpe ranked first in that category so no shame in that ranking 
Me too. But I picked him third overall (technically after wikkid switch Brown’s category). Just worried about optics. I’ll do it, and explain it in the tier, and let Tim readjust if he feels necessary. 

 
So I was kind of trying to save the all-around for near the end or last as it's arguably the "greatest" category. I have begun to think about it, though, and I really believe there's a clear top tier of three: Bo Jackson, Jim Brown, and Jim Thorpe. I genuinely believe that Thorpe is the greatest all-around athlete to ever grace this planet but can most certainly see arguments for Bo and Brown (and, of course, I drafted Thorpe). As such I'm really uncomfortable rating him these three. Accordingly, I propose two options: 

1. Put it to a vote in the FFA for these top 3 and go with the poll results for the order and continue on ranking. 

2. Turn the category over to our MVP judge @BobbyLayne (if he'll do it). 

Anybody have a strong preference or objection to either?
What makes this difficult is how much do you way someone that was extremely good in two sports vs someone that was really good in 4 sports.   Bo was a great athlete and excelled in football and was good in baseball but could he play basketball (the commercial campaign definitely helped his legend but was it true)?  I don't know.  I have known/played against some very athletic people that couldn't throw a baseball or shoot a basketball.   It's a different kind of athletic skill set that should have meaning in a greatest athlete of all time discussion.  Is someone that won a decathalon a better athlete because that was a lot of events in one even though their competition may not have been top notch all around?  Who knows, that is why you get paid the big bucks to be a judge.

Very tough situation but just like with all the judging thus far, if you have a criteria and stay with it while sprinkling in some of your personal eye test etc then go with it.  It's all for fun anyway. 

 
What makes this difficult is how much do you way someone that was extremely good in two sports vs someone that was really good in 4 sports.
 
“The Babe is here! Who is coming in second?”

Imagine setting a world record - which still stands - in your 4th best sport.

86 years later men are debating best athlete ever without bringing your name up.

Imagine being named Athlete of the Year at 20. Then winning that award five more times, the last one when you’re age 42.

You guys thought I was kidding, right?


Babe Didrikson Zaharias’s Legacy Fades

By Don Van Natta Jr.

June 25, 2011

BEAUMONT, Tex. — Mildred Ella Babe Didrikson Zaharias has, in many ways, become America’s all-but-forgotten sports superstar. And nowhere is Didrikson’s faded sporting legacy felt more powerfully than here in her hometown, where she hopped hedges along Doucette Street and learned how to play golf at Beaumont Country Club. 

IOff Interstate 10, a modest, circular brick museum, built in 1976 as a tribute to Babe, is easy to miss. Its smudged glass cases are stocked with the loot collected during Didrikson’s fabulous sporting life: the medals, trophies, golf clubs and get-well telegrams and letters, from housewives and schoolchildren, prime ministers and presidents, now yellowed and fading. It is open every day except Christmas.

On a good day, the museum attracts a handful of visitors. On many days, though, no one steps foot inside.

At a local awards dinner this month for gifted high school golfers, only two winners said they had visited Babe Didrikson’s museum. Even in her own backyard, the young golfers now prowling the courses where Didrikson learned the game barely know her name. 

“Every time I tell her story, people have trouble believing everything she was able to do during her life,” said Beaumont’s mayor pro tem, W. L. Pate Jr., the president of the Babe Didrikson Zaharias Foundation. “And she did so much in so little time.”

Didrikson died of cancer at 45 on Sept. 27, 1956, and she was buried here, at Forest Lawn Cemetery. On a memorial near her burial site, there is the old Grantland Rice line about how winning and losing are not what matters but rather how one played the game.

It is unclear how the lines came to be engraved into the stone. What is clear is Didrikson never subscribed to them.

“I don’t see any point in playing the game if you don’t win,” she often said. “Do you?”

But if her name may mean increasingly little to a young generation of sports fans, Didrikson, who was born 100 years ago, was perhaps America’s greatest all-around athlete, male or female. 

No athlete excelled at more sports and games than Didrikson. She was an all-American basketball player, a two-time Olympic track and field gold medalist and a golf champion who won 82 tournaments, including an astonishing 14 in a row. One of the 13 founding members of the L.P.G.A., Didrikson became the first woman to play against men in a PGA Tour event and the first American to win the British Women’s Amateur Championship. She was also an outstanding baseball, softball, tennis and billiards player, diver and bowler. 

At 13 she was just a poor, foul-mouthed Beaumont girl who preferred to play baseball and basketball with the boys because they were better athletes than the girls.

A brash, tough-talking Texan who spent her life hurdling obstacles placed in her way by chauvinistic sports fans, sexist reporters and class-conscious golfers, Didrikson often showed up in the clubhouse before a tournament and bellowed to her female competitors: “The Babe’s here! Who is going to finish second?”

Perhaps Didrikson’s most spectacular athletic achievement occurred at the amateur track and field championships in Evanston, Ill., on July 16, 1932. She was the lone representative of Employers Casualty Insurance Company of Dallas, competing against company teams of 12, 15, even 22 women. When Didrikson was introduced, she ran onto the field by herself, her arms waving wildly. The crowd gasped at the audacity of this “one-woman track team” (a phrase Didrikson coined). 

Over the course of three hours on a sweltering track, she sprinted from event to event, with barely enough time to catch her breath. She finished first in five events: broad jump, shot-put, javelin, 80-meter hurdles and the baseball throw. She tied for first in a sixth event, the high jump. In qualifying for three Olympic events, she amassed a total of 30 team points for Employers Casualty. The second-place team, the Illinois Women’s Athletic Club, scored 22 points — with 22 athletes.

“Implausible is the adjective that best befits the Babe,” Arthur Daley wrote in The New York Times.

She went on to Los Angeles for the 1932 Olympics and won gold medals in the javelin and the 80-meter hurdles and a silver medal in the high jump. Almost overnight, she had become the most famous female athlete in the world.

But she had few places to compete. And she had to overcome ridiculers, among them high-society Texas women who wondered whether she was a she, a he or an it. They whispered she was a lesbian obsessed with athletic competition to compensate for her failure in “the sport of man-snatching.” 

Within five months of her Olympic success, Didrikson, needing a job during the Depression, performed vaudeville on Chicago’s Palace Theater stage, then played baseball riding a donkey around the basepaths with the barnstorming House of David team in small towns and villages across the country.

It was not until Didrikson took up golf that she began to transform her image and personality. She embraced golf in part to try to conform, somewhat, to America’s expectations of how a female athlete should look and act in the 1930s. She bought a new wardrobe and applied lipstick. Some writers still ridiculed her looks. (“I know I’m not pretty, but I try to be graceful,” she said.) And in December 1938, she married George Zaharias, a professional wrestler. He helped sell her makeover to the news media and to the public.

Golf was the toughest game for Didrikson, but she mastered it by practicing for 10 hours a day until her hands were bloodied and blistered. From 1946 to 1947, she won 14 consecutive tournaments, including the British Women’s Amateur Championship in Gullane, Scotland. 

Perhaps her most lasting legacy is as a founding member of the L.P.G.A. The women’s tour was created in large part to showcase Didrikson’s booming drives, soft touch around the greens and the effortless way she made members of the gallery laugh and cheer. “I just loosen my girdle and let the ball have it,” she liked to say.

Tournament organizers paid her $1,000 under the table just to show up; it did not take long for other female golfers to become envious of her stardom. But they also knew it was Didrikson whom the people were coming to see. 

W. L. Pate Jr., president of the Didrikson foundation in Beaumont, Tex.Credit...Michael Stravato for The New York Times

“Babe was an entertainer,” said Marilynn Smith, a Kansas pro and L.P.G.A. founding member, who won 21 tour events in her career. “She knew you’re not just out there hitting a golf ball.”

Didrikson received a diagnosis of rectal cancer in April 1953. Doctors told reporters she would never play professional golf again. She tried to give her clubs to a friend, but soon she vowed publicly that she would come back to play tournament golf and win.

Fifteen months after a colostomy, she won the United States Women’s Open at Salem Country Club in Peabody, Mass., by an amazing 12 strokes. Afterward, she shared her victory with her doctors and the thousands of cancer patients who had written to her and rooted for her.

Didrikson became a tireless crusader against cancer. She spoke openly about her illness in an era when public figures preferred to keep theirs a secret.

Twenty-six months after her triumph at Salem Country Club, she was dead. On the morning she died in a Galveston, Tex., hospital, President Dwight D. Eisenhower began his news conference in Washington with this salute: “She was a woman who, in her athletic career, certainly won the admiration of every person in the United States, all sports people all over the world, and in her gallant fight against cancer, she put up one of the kind of fights that inspire us all.”

This month, the cities of Beaumont; Port Arthur, Tex.; and Tampa, Fla., have commemorated her centennial. Here in Beaumont, a businessman named Mike Fuljenz attended a recent fund-raising dinner for the Babe Didrikson Zaharias Foundation, and stood shaking his head as he listened to the highlights of her magnificent sporting life.

“I just wish more kids knew about her and the museum; it’s a very special place,” Fuljenz said. “I mean, Babe did it all. She transcends everything.”
 
No athlete excelled at more sports and games than Didrikson. She was:

• all-American basketball player & two time AAU national championships (wasn’t limited to only college players)

• Two-time Olympic track and field gold medalist (set her 3rd WR in 80 meter hurdles + silver in javelin)

• Professional golf champion who won 82 tournaments, including an astonishing 14 in a row. One of the 13 founding members of the L.P.G.A., Didrikson became the first woman to play against men in a PGA Tour event and the first American to win the British Women’s Amateur Championship.

• Still holds the record for longest baseball throw by a girl. Second place was 44’ shorter.

• Three times pitched an inning against professional male baseball players, two of them were MLB teams. Held two of them scoreless and gave up 3 runs to the Red Sox.

• She was also an outstanding softball, tennis and billiards player, diver and bowler. Nine sports, how many do you need for this category?

Also a very good boxer who could beat the crap out of anybody reading this.

 
Retire already!!!

And who knew Zow as a Russian judge?


Once you do all the research, these things become a lot more clear.  

I thought judging the SB's would be hard. It is, but the choices are getting very clear.

 
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No athlete excelled at more sports and games than Didrikson. She was:

• all-American basketball player & two time AAU national championships (wasn’t limited to only college players)

• Two-time Olympic track and field gold medalist (set her 3rd WR in 80 meter hurdles + silver in javelin)

• Professional golf champion who won 82 tournaments, including an astonishing 14 in a row. One of the 13 founding members of the L.P.G.A., Didrikson became the first woman to play against men in a PGA Tour event and the first American to win the British Women’s Amateur Championship.

• Still holds the record for longest baseball throw by a girl. Second place was 44’ shorter.

• Three times pitched an inning against professional male baseball players, two of them were MLB teams. Held two of them scoreless and gave up 3 runs to the Red Sox.

• She was also an outstanding softball, tennis and billiards player, diver and bowler. Nine sports, how many do you need for this category?

Also a very good boxer who could beat the crap out of anybody reading this.
I feel there is a personal story to go along with the bolded.  Babe and Bobby fight club

 
Mostly came down to the advanced stats for Rose.

Wins Above Replacement (WAR)
Jaffe Wins Above Replacement Score (JAWS)   
weighted on-base average (wOBA)  
weighted runs created plus (wRC+)   
adjusted OPS (OPS+)

He was 14th out of 14 in three of those (wOBA, wRC+, OPS+.)

JAWS (shorthand - HoF worthiness) he beat out Joe Jackson for 13th place.

WAR - Carew leads in bWAR, Rose in fWAR in the battle for 13th/14th.

(Jackson beats out everyone in wOBA / wRC+ / OPS+ except Ruth, Cobb, Williams & Trout.)

__________________

Grove’s MLB Career didn’t start until he was almost 25, because the owner of the Baltimore & Ohio railroad team refused to sell him to MLB teams. He won 111 games 1920-24 in the minors before the Philadelphia A’s paid $100,600 for him. During those minor league years teams would often play B&O on their way from Florida spring training to their hometowns for Opening Day. Grove struck out Babe Ruth 9 out of 11 times in those exhibitions.

Besides having the best win percentage (.680) of any 300 game winner, Lefty was never in the top ten for losses (no other 300 club member can say that.) 7 strikeout crowns to start his career, 5 ERA titles in his first 8 seasons (two Triple Crowns b2b.) In those years he just blew everyone away with his fastball.

After a sore arm in 1934, Grove lost his fastball and had to rely on his curveball, location, changing speeds. He was far less dominant but in many ways he became a much better pitcher. Astonishingly, he won 4 more ERA crowns 1935-39 as a junkballer.

__________________

more on Rose below.

Rose’s all time ranks are a function of G / AB / PA. He’s up 250-500 games and 1700-3000 AB on the players he passed late in his career.

Pete played 24 years and usually batted 1 or 2, on teams that were consistently in the top third offensively. Rarely hurt. Not surprising then he had 17 seasons with 700+ plate appearances. Every season he has bolded numbers at BR - led the league - for R, H, 2B were seasons with 730+ PA (with one exception - 1968 led in H with 692 PA.)

His last 5 years he played 625 G and had a slash line of .261/.348/.315. Those were important years for the legacy though - 559 H, 250 R, 74 2B.

If he had went out on top (1981) he’d still top 5 in most of his best counting categories (almost 3700 H.) By playing 5 years past his prime he rose to 1st/2nd in G AB R 2B and of course ALL TIME HIT KING.

Because Pete Rose the manager penciled in Pete Rose the below average 1B for 501 PA in 1985 he passed Cobb (who has played 500 less games.) The Reds were in contention that year and 44 year old Rose should have been sitting in favor of the resurgent 43 year old Tony Perez (.328 in 207 PA with much better power.)

1986, when you could make a legitimate case for him being the worst player in MLB, Manager Pete Rose gave Pete Rose the has been player 272 more PA. During the last 5 years his career AVG dropped from .310 (~105th) to .303 (171st - and 83 of those players have 6500+ AB.) 

He stuck around. Congrats?

Great player, you betcha. All time great? IDK for almost the entirety of his career he was the 3rd or 4th best player on his own team.

Early on Frank Robinson was top dog and young Vada Pinson was a much better player. Rose was the Reds best player on mediocre teams ‘67-‘68.

Then the Reds added Bench, Morgan, Perez, and later still, Foster. Morgan and Bench were consistently better, and both were better base stealers & base runners (Johnny always had better SB/CS Numbers.) Perez seemed to always drive in 90+, huge contributor.

On the Phillies, there’s no comparison between Mike Schmidt and Rose.
He and Alexander should have been ahead of Kaline.

 
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