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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I am willing to give greatest male swimmer a shot. I can try to use a similar template to the female swimmer category.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Not nearly as suspenseful as @Mjolnirs epic Lee v Grant reveal for the Top 2 Greatest American General in the Greatest American Draft. Nobody went to lunch that day because we were all hitting f5 at work.
ASIDE -
this is like a who’s who of missing FBGs:
Claydon
Big Rocks
@BobbyLayne
Fennis
Larry Boy
@wikkidpissah
Arsenal of Doom
MisfitBlondes
Orange Crush
@Mister CIA
FUBAR
Stevegamer
Thatguy
@Yankee23Fan
The Hank
Greco
Scotch Rocks
@Doug B
Usual21
B Deep
are all those guys really MIA? 15/20?
Zegras11
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
FUBAR is around too under another alias
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Do we know if @Ramsay Hunt Experience is going to continue? I have been on pins and needles waiting for the reveal of the next player.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Pretty sure I've seen these guys around somewhat recently, unless I'm getting the hank confused with a different SP poster.
also, link to that draft?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Heavyweight Boxing Rankings Pt 3
5. (12 pt) Lennox Lewis: The last undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. He won his first title after champion Riddick Bowe chose to relinquish the title instead of fighting Lewis. Over his 44 pro fights and a 14 year pro career, no fighter ever truly bested Lewis. Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman both shocked Lewis but the 6’5” 250 pound Brit stopped both of them in the rematches. Llook at how he fared against his top competition: Tyson- KO. Vitali Klitschko- TKO. Holyfield- landed 200 more punches than Evander in a shocking draw and then won the rematch by unanimous decision. Lewis began a size revolution at heavyweight. Jack Johnson was 6’1”, Rocky Marciano 5’11”, Ali 6’3” and Tyson 5’10”. In boxing, to be 6’5” and 250 almost always meant a big lumbering man with slow punches who hoped to just physically wear his opponent down. Lewis had this freakish size but he was also an Olympic gold medalist. He was light on his feet, had a quick jab and was highly technical. Since Lewis showed what a larger man is capable of, we have seen the division become ruled by giants: Wlad and Joshua at 6’6”, Wilder at 6’7” and Fury at 6’9”. This ranking isn’t about which fighters would win if pitted against each other today but it’s hard to imagine someone like Marciano giving up 6 inches, 60 pounds and 16 inches in reach being able to go toe to toe with Lennox.
4. (13 pt) George Foreman: He was the giant of his time coming in at 6’4” and 218 during his prime. George was also an Olympic Gold Medalist. He was 32-0 (29 KOs) when he got his title shot in Jamaica against Frazier. “Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!” That famous call pretty much summed it up as Frazier hit the deck 6 times in the first 2 rounds. HoFer Ken Norton barely fared better, he hit the deck 3x in the 2nd and the ref stopped the fight. Ali of course cemented his legacy besting George in the Rumble in the Jungle. Foreman would win 5 more fights by KO (destroying Frazier again) before suffering an upset and slipping into retirement for a decade. Big George had a great career in the 60s and 70s but his legacy was significantly boosted in the late 80s and 90s. Bigger and slower, but smarter and no less powerful, Foreman became the oldest HW champ in history at age 45 with his stunning upset of Michael Moorer. It’s an accomplishment without parallel. To retire for a full decade and then come back in your 40s to compete with the best in the world is nuts. It would be like if in 5 years Calvin Johnson comes out of retirement and makes 1st Team All Pro.
3. (14 pt) Jack Johnson: Again, this is not a ranking of who would win if they all fought each other. The Galveston Giant was downright small by modern heavyweight boxing standards and really would be a cruiserweight today. However, my system doesn’t take that into account. I am much more interested in how they fared in their era and the legacy they left behind. Jack left a giant imprint on the sport and world. The first black Heavyweight Champion of the World. The bane of white existence. He ran a desegregated nightclub, had a white wife and many white girlfriends. He was constantly harassed by police. He employed a unique style for the time. He wasn’t overly aggressive but was more a patient counter puncher who ramped up his work rate later in fights as opponents tired. White HW Champ James Jefferies retired to avoid fighting him. Once, Johnson finally won the title, the media search for “The Great White Hope” began. Jack defeated all who came his way including his one-sided “Fight of the Century” win over former champ James Jefferies. It took a KO in round 26 of a scheduled 45 rounder against giant Jess Willard to finally take the title from Johnson. While he was a hero to the black community, he wasn’t without flaws. He mostly refused to fight black contenders while champion and when he did, he was careful about who. Unfortunately, his unwillingness to bend to the will of whites outside of the ring would create a lot of apprehension about allowing another black man into the upper echelon of boxing. It would take a very special fighter and person to convince white fans to support a black boxing champion again.
2. (15 pt) Joe Louis: Joe was that very special fighter and person. The country may not have been fully ready for a black hero but when Hitler sent his NAZI fighter Max Schmelling to fight for Joe’s HW title at Yankee Stadium, the country took a step forward in race relations (seems not so controversial today but at the time siding with a black man over a white man- even a NAZI was significant). Joe KO’d Max in round 1 in what I still believe is the most important boxing match in history. With the win, whites and blacks celebrated Joe as their American hero. Unlike Jack Johnson, Louis was willing to play the role of humble champion and endeared himself to the country. Joe had little to be humble about. He was HW champion from 1937-1949 with 25 consecutive title defenses (both records still) and is generally considered the best puncher in boxing history. He may not have been Ali with his mouth, but he was no slouch when it came to adding to the lexicon of boxing, coining the phrases “He can run but he can’t hide” and “Everybody has a plan until they get hit.”
1. (16 pt) Muhammad Ali: Cassius Clay was much more Jack Johnson than Joe Louis. He refused to be what America wanted him to be. He converted to Islam, he refused to serve in the military. If Louis was a hero for all of American, Ali was the counterculture hero and establishment’s worst nightmare. Ali did it all. Olympic gold, shocking upsets over Liston to become champion at 22, stood toe to toe with the US government (he lost his title and 4 years of his prime career but never his faith), he rumbled in the jungles and thrilled us in Manilla. The only 3 time lineal HW champion with wins over legends like Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Floyd Patterson Sonny Liston, Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers and Cleveland Williams, Ali has a legacy as the greatest of all time both inside and outside the ring.
5. (12 pt) Lennox Lewis: The last undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. He won his first title after champion Riddick Bowe chose to relinquish the title instead of fighting Lewis. Over his 44 pro fights and a 14 year pro career, no fighter ever truly bested Lewis. Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman both shocked Lewis but the 6’5” 250 pound Brit stopped both of them in the rematches. Llook at how he fared against his top competition: Tyson- KO. Vitali Klitschko- TKO. Holyfield- landed 200 more punches than Evander in a shocking draw and then won the rematch by unanimous decision. Lewis began a size revolution at heavyweight. Jack Johnson was 6’1”, Rocky Marciano 5’11”, Ali 6’3” and Tyson 5’10”. In boxing, to be 6’5” and 250 almost always meant a big lumbering man with slow punches who hoped to just physically wear his opponent down. Lewis had this freakish size but he was also an Olympic gold medalist. He was light on his feet, had a quick jab and was highly technical. Since Lewis showed what a larger man is capable of, we have seen the division become ruled by giants: Wlad and Joshua at 6’6”, Wilder at 6’7” and Fury at 6’9”. This ranking isn’t about which fighters would win if pitted against each other today but it’s hard to imagine someone like Marciano giving up 6 inches, 60 pounds and 16 inches in reach being able to go toe to toe with Lennox.
4. (13 pt) George Foreman: He was the giant of his time coming in at 6’4” and 218 during his prime. George was also an Olympic Gold Medalist. He was 32-0 (29 KOs) when he got his title shot in Jamaica against Frazier. “Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!” That famous call pretty much summed it up as Frazier hit the deck 6 times in the first 2 rounds. HoFer Ken Norton barely fared better, he hit the deck 3x in the 2nd and the ref stopped the fight. Ali of course cemented his legacy besting George in the Rumble in the Jungle. Foreman would win 5 more fights by KO (destroying Frazier again) before suffering an upset and slipping into retirement for a decade. Big George had a great career in the 60s and 70s but his legacy was significantly boosted in the late 80s and 90s. Bigger and slower, but smarter and no less powerful, Foreman became the oldest HW champ in history at age 45 with his stunning upset of Michael Moorer. It’s an accomplishment without parallel. To retire for a full decade and then come back in your 40s to compete with the best in the world is nuts. It would be like if in 5 years Calvin Johnson comes out of retirement and makes 1st Team All Pro.
3. (14 pt) Jack Johnson: Again, this is not a ranking of who would win if they all fought each other. The Galveston Giant was downright small by modern heavyweight boxing standards and really would be a cruiserweight today. However, my system doesn’t take that into account. I am much more interested in how they fared in their era and the legacy they left behind. Jack left a giant imprint on the sport and world. The first black Heavyweight Champion of the World. The bane of white existence. He ran a desegregated nightclub, had a white wife and many white girlfriends. He was constantly harassed by police. He employed a unique style for the time. He wasn’t overly aggressive but was more a patient counter puncher who ramped up his work rate later in fights as opponents tired. White HW Champ James Jefferies retired to avoid fighting him. Once, Johnson finally won the title, the media search for “The Great White Hope” began. Jack defeated all who came his way including his one-sided “Fight of the Century” win over former champ James Jefferies. It took a KO in round 26 of a scheduled 45 rounder against giant Jess Willard to finally take the title from Johnson. While he was a hero to the black community, he wasn’t without flaws. He mostly refused to fight black contenders while champion and when he did, he was careful about who. Unfortunately, his unwillingness to bend to the will of whites outside of the ring would create a lot of apprehension about allowing another black man into the upper echelon of boxing. It would take a very special fighter and person to convince white fans to support a black boxing champion again.
2. (15 pt) Joe Louis: Joe was that very special fighter and person. The country may not have been fully ready for a black hero but when Hitler sent his NAZI fighter Max Schmelling to fight for Joe’s HW title at Yankee Stadium, the country took a step forward in race relations (seems not so controversial today but at the time siding with a black man over a white man- even a NAZI was significant). Joe KO’d Max in round 1 in what I still believe is the most important boxing match in history. With the win, whites and blacks celebrated Joe as their American hero. Unlike Jack Johnson, Louis was willing to play the role of humble champion and endeared himself to the country. Joe had little to be humble about. He was HW champion from 1937-1949 with 25 consecutive title defenses (both records still) and is generally considered the best puncher in boxing history. He may not have been Ali with his mouth, but he was no slouch when it came to adding to the lexicon of boxing, coining the phrases “He can run but he can’t hide” and “Everybody has a plan until they get hit.”
1. (16 pt) Muhammad Ali: Cassius Clay was much more Jack Johnson than Joe Louis. He refused to be what America wanted him to be. He converted to Islam, he refused to serve in the military. If Louis was a hero for all of American, Ali was the counterculture hero and establishment’s worst nightmare. Ali did it all. Olympic gold, shocking upsets over Liston to become champion at 22, stood toe to toe with the US government (he lost his title and 4 years of his prime career but never his faith), he rumbled in the jungles and thrilled us in Manilla. The only 3 time lineal HW champion with wins over legends like Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Floyd Patterson Sonny Liston, Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers and Cleveland Williams, Ali has a legacy as the greatest of all time both inside and outside the ring.
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Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after ILov80's ranked Men's HeavyWeight Boxer's -
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--288--3--0--2=5
2 --DougB--280--4--2--0=6
3 --Zow--275--3--2--3=8 (gold)
4 --AAABatteries--272--2--1--4=7
5 --tuffnutt--272--3--1--3=7
6 --Ilov80s--270--2--3--1=6 (silver)
7 --otb_lifer--260--0--2--1=3
8 --Getzlaf15--241--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--238--1--4--1=6
10 -Long Ball Larry--237--1--2--3=6
11 -timschochet--237--1--2--3=6 (bronze)
12 -Jagov--229--2--3--0=5
13 -joffer--229--2--3--0=5
14 -higgins--222--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--207--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--186--2--1--0=3
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--288--3--0--2=5
2 --DougB--280--4--2--0=6
3 --Zow--275--3--2--3=8 (gold)
4 --AAABatteries--272--2--1--4=7
5 --tuffnutt--272--3--1--3=7
6 --Ilov80s--270--2--3--1=6 (silver)
7 --otb_lifer--260--0--2--1=3
8 --Getzlaf15--241--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--238--1--4--1=6
10 -Long Ball Larry--237--1--2--3=6
11 -timschochet--237--1--2--3=6 (bronze)
12 -Jagov--229--2--3--0=5
13 -joffer--229--2--3--0=5
14 -higgins--222--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--207--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--186--2--1--0=3
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Measurements of their impact and accomplishments relative to their era and time period. It’s impossible to say who wins Tyson vs Marciano. Pure speculation and which version of those guys are we talking about? Tyson in 88? Tyson in 98?
I appreciate the heckling BTW
I always was under the impression whenever I discussed this type of thing it was always transporting the individual in their prime otherwise it wouldn't really be a good representation of the discussion. You always talk about the best of the guy you are fighting for.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Sure but that totally discount the skill it takes to maintain longevity and consistency. Also it’s still purely subjective.
My memory hurt me on this one. I could have taken Lewis over Frazier but I never got the impression that Lewis was all that great historically speaking. I never really looked into him it was just what my impression was from memory. I thought he never really fought anyone in their prime of consequence but I guess I was way off. Interesting stuff. Well done on the judging.
You are wrong on this purely subjective, I only look at my way, imaginary discussion of abilities over many eras.....hahahahah
Ilov80s
Footballguy
And I forgot to mention he retired as unified undisputed champion after he stopped Klitschko. Legendary fight and way to go out on top at age 37. He did kind of dodge a rematch with Klitschko after how rough their first fight was but at his age and the 6 months it would take for Klitschko’s eye to heal enough to get medical clearance for a fight, I think it was a reasonable decision.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Annoyingly, the 3-page startup thread is archived, along with a few playoff polls (post-judging....which was used for seeding...played a single elimination tournament via FFA polls.)
The 175-200 pages of the drafting & judging? Not archived, ‘twas lost when we “upgraded” the board.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
The Al Hrabosky Award for Slavic Mustachioed Anger and Excellence:
16th place, 1 point - Joe Nathan. i have no problem whatsoever saying that Joe Nathan was the 16th best relief pitcher of all time. I also have no problem saying Craig Kimbrel was 8th, Eric Gagne was 13th or John Franco was 27th. Unlike most sports categories, especially in baseball, i can say i not only seen em all but have watched the closer phenomenon begin, grow and abide. Funny thing is, the rate at which teams win or lose with 1&2&3-run leads in the 7th-8th-9th innings hasnt changed significantly since it all began. Allow me then to stack these granfalloons, beginning with the pitcher i would call in last of the 16 men in my bullpen.
15th place, 2points - Dan Quisenberry. I might call Quiz in before some of the others, but it would be situationally and i'd never be happy about it.
14th place, 3 points - John Franco. Gutsy li'l *******. Always competent, rarely dominant. Me likey dominant
13th place, 4 points - Lee Smith. Dominating figure, volatile pitcher. Has a lot of numbers cuz he had a lot of years working for a lot of teams.
12th place, 5 points - Francisco Rodriguez. Right there with Mo & Sutter as having the most unfiguroutable pitch on this roster. Got figured out, though, and then unravelled.
11th place, 6 points - **** Radatz. The Babe Ruth of Hraboskys. I'd rank him top 5 personally because he kinda invented makin' guys pee in their cups a li'l bit, but the stats are indeed paltry and for a team that didn't matter. But he is the progenitor of the Wild Thingness of closers, even though he was actually a calm, humble soul.
10th place, 7 points - Sparky Lyle. Pretty close to being the match for Rollie Fingers for establishing the must-haveness of closers. And a Cy Young winner (of course, so was Willie Hernandez, Steve Bedrosian & Mark Davis) to boot
9th place, 8 points - Mike Marshall. Dread. The most important quality of being a closer is instilling dread. Just like a great cover corner allows a football defense to play like it has 12 men, the dread factor allows a baseball team to play to it and is what created that 7th, 8th inning setup aristocracy over hitters' levels of confidence. Marshall is the first on the list of the dread closers. There is only one closer in the top 8 without a dread factor, but i simply dont want to listen to all the numbers he had, so i left him in.
8th place, 9 points - Hoyt Wilhelm. He invented the phenomenon, along with the greatest manager i ever saw, Leo Durocher, mostly because of the dread factor in his knuckleballs. He had two of em - one for strikes, one for mayhem, and orchestrated them beautifully to frustrate the best swingers of baseball's greatest era
7th place, 10 points - Trevor Hoffman. About as low as i can put him, i guess. A little awe for consistent excellence, no dread. Dont ever remember thinking him the best in the game. and not only cuz Mo & he were contemporaries. Not even the Padre closer i would call in first
6th place, 11 points - Billy Wagner. More dread than Hoffman. More dread per pound than Marshall. Not Hall of Fame dread, though. They begin Now.
5th place, 12 points - Bruce Sutter. Behind only Mo in dread, and the only reason he got figured out is that dozens of guys added a splitter and gave everybody practice on it. I flip-flopped him and Eck a buncha times.
4th place, 13 points - Goose Gossage. Talk about dread - i'm a Red Sox fan. This is the guy i would hire first because he had a dread factor and would leave blood on the field to get the job done. The last guy who didnt care about his arm and it cost him. I miss those guys - our fault for losing them by paying ticket prices which allowed the salaries that turned their focus inward.
3rd place 14 points - Dennis Eckersely. The best pitcher to play the position and it aint close (Smoltz woulda got 10th for that, btw). I cried when he retired, but it's only because Eck is 5 days older than me and, when he left the mound, it made me older than every player in team sports. For every kid who wanted to be Koufax, Mays or Yaz, that's a bad day.
2nd place, 15 points - Rollie Fingers. He's got the dread, he's got the stats, he's got the history, championships. He's the logo
1st place, 16 points - Mariano Rivera. Mo better. nufced
16th place, 1 point - Joe Nathan. i have no problem whatsoever saying that Joe Nathan was the 16th best relief pitcher of all time. I also have no problem saying Craig Kimbrel was 8th, Eric Gagne was 13th or John Franco was 27th. Unlike most sports categories, especially in baseball, i can say i not only seen em all but have watched the closer phenomenon begin, grow and abide. Funny thing is, the rate at which teams win or lose with 1&2&3-run leads in the 7th-8th-9th innings hasnt changed significantly since it all began. Allow me then to stack these granfalloons, beginning with the pitcher i would call in last of the 16 men in my bullpen.
15th place, 2points - Dan Quisenberry. I might call Quiz in before some of the others, but it would be situationally and i'd never be happy about it.
14th place, 3 points - John Franco. Gutsy li'l *******. Always competent, rarely dominant. Me likey dominant
13th place, 4 points - Lee Smith. Dominating figure, volatile pitcher. Has a lot of numbers cuz he had a lot of years working for a lot of teams.
12th place, 5 points - Francisco Rodriguez. Right there with Mo & Sutter as having the most unfiguroutable pitch on this roster. Got figured out, though, and then unravelled.
11th place, 6 points - **** Radatz. The Babe Ruth of Hraboskys. I'd rank him top 5 personally because he kinda invented makin' guys pee in their cups a li'l bit, but the stats are indeed paltry and for a team that didn't matter. But he is the progenitor of the Wild Thingness of closers, even though he was actually a calm, humble soul.
10th place, 7 points - Sparky Lyle. Pretty close to being the match for Rollie Fingers for establishing the must-haveness of closers. And a Cy Young winner (of course, so was Willie Hernandez, Steve Bedrosian & Mark Davis) to boot
9th place, 8 points - Mike Marshall. Dread. The most important quality of being a closer is instilling dread. Just like a great cover corner allows a football defense to play like it has 12 men, the dread factor allows a baseball team to play to it and is what created that 7th, 8th inning setup aristocracy over hitters' levels of confidence. Marshall is the first on the list of the dread closers. There is only one closer in the top 8 without a dread factor, but i simply dont want to listen to all the numbers he had, so i left him in.
8th place, 9 points - Hoyt Wilhelm. He invented the phenomenon, along with the greatest manager i ever saw, Leo Durocher, mostly because of the dread factor in his knuckleballs. He had two of em - one for strikes, one for mayhem, and orchestrated them beautifully to frustrate the best swingers of baseball's greatest era
7th place, 10 points - Trevor Hoffman. About as low as i can put him, i guess. A little awe for consistent excellence, no dread. Dont ever remember thinking him the best in the game. and not only cuz Mo & he were contemporaries. Not even the Padre closer i would call in first
6th place, 11 points - Billy Wagner. More dread than Hoffman. More dread per pound than Marshall. Not Hall of Fame dread, though. They begin Now.
5th place, 12 points - Bruce Sutter. Behind only Mo in dread, and the only reason he got figured out is that dozens of guys added a splitter and gave everybody practice on it. I flip-flopped him and Eck a buncha times.
4th place, 13 points - Goose Gossage. Talk about dread - i'm a Red Sox fan. This is the guy i would hire first because he had a dread factor and would leave blood on the field to get the job done. The last guy who didnt care about his arm and it cost him. I miss those guys - our fault for losing them by paying ticket prices which allowed the salaries that turned their focus inward.
3rd place 14 points - Dennis Eckersely. The best pitcher to play the position and it aint close (Smoltz woulda got 10th for that, btw). I cried when he retired, but it's only because Eck is 5 days older than me and, when he left the mound, it made me older than every player in team sports. For every kid who wanted to be Koufax, Mays or Yaz, that's a bad day.
2nd place, 15 points - Rollie Fingers. He's got the dread, he's got the stats, he's got the history, championships. He's the logo
1st place, 16 points - Mariano Rivera. Mo better. nufced
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Still here. Building an organization that is taking all my time. And I find very little need to debate certain things these days.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after Wikkid's rankings ob MLB RP's -
50% of all the Cats have ben judged now.
We have a new leader!!!
1 --DougB--294--4--2--1=7 (bronze)
2 --Gally--292--3--0--2=5
3 --Ilov80s--285--2--4--1=7 (silver)
4 --tuffnutt--282--3--1--3=7
5 --Zow--277--3--2--3=8
6 --AAABatteries--273--2--1--4=7
7 --otb_lifer--267--0--2--1=3
8 --Getzlaf15--254--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--254--2--4--1=7 (gold)
10 -timschochet--248--1--2--3=6
11 -Long Ball Larry--245--1--2--3=6
12 -Jagov--238--2--3--0=5
13 -joffer--232--2--3--0=5
14 -higgins--227--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--213--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--198--2--1--0=3
50% of all the Cats have ben judged now.
We have a new leader!!!
1 --DougB--294--4--2--1=7 (bronze)
2 --Gally--292--3--0--2=5
3 --Ilov80s--285--2--4--1=7 (silver)
4 --tuffnutt--282--3--1--3=7
5 --Zow--277--3--2--3=8
6 --AAABatteries--273--2--1--4=7
7 --otb_lifer--267--0--2--1=3
8 --Getzlaf15--254--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--254--2--4--1=7 (gold)
10 -timschochet--248--1--2--3=6
11 -Long Ball Larry--245--1--2--3=6
12 -Jagov--238--2--3--0=5
13 -joffer--232--2--3--0=5
14 -higgins--227--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--213--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--198--2--1--0=3
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Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Boxing writeups were great, one slight nitpick- Max Schmeling wasn’t really a Nazi. Yes he did join the party and publicly praised Hitler, but much like a Soviet athlete he was trapped; he would have not been able to fight otherwise. Schmeling was a liberal who saved Jewish lives during the war.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Thanks and you are right, I shouldn’t have characterized him like that. If I remember correctly, he was always courteous about Joe and tried to downplay any notions that the fight was about race. I guess I meant NAZI as in he was the representative of NAZI Germany- technically.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Despite the clumsy wording you captured the more important point: as with Jessie Owens, the driving contemporaneous narrative was democracy vs fascism through sports. Proving that there is no master race was a huge motivation for the US athletes as well as American fans.
Doug B
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Same method!
Found an online randomizer site for the rankings, now just working on the write ups.
otb_lifer
Footballguy
A couple of bad results for me. I thought I would do better in those categories. Looks like the start of me crashing back down to earth.
tuffnutt
Footballguy
Same... figured 601 career saves would get you in top 5... oh well I’m loving the write ups! I have found the judges are way more knowledgeable than I’ll ever be. Great work all.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Good stuff.wikkidpissah said:
I would add that none were more dreaded than Mitch Williams - when you combine the dred score of both teams on the field.
Eh, not really. Lee Smith got screwed...hahaha.
I would have thought he had some dread cred. He was imposing and nasty. He was hit and miss at times but getting dinged because he "pitched for a lot of years" seems counter to being scored so low. He was effective for a long time which I would have thought would have been a positive. I would have moved him ahead of Sparky Lyle and had him 10th.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Man this was a dumb thing to say. bad idea jeans, indeed.Long Ball Larry said:
Zegras11
Footballguy
Ok, here are the MLB C rankings.
Names randomly entered.
Baseballref.com is great. They had Defensive War ratings on the catchers. Really wanted to factor D into this ranking and found out four of these guys really sucked on the defensive end.
So WAR, # of Offensive WAR Top 10 Seasons, # of Defensive WAR Top 10 seasons, Awards, Post Season performance, MVP Share, OPS+, and rankings from three solid Net lists were used. Each CAT weighted with the Net rankings the lowest weight.
Notable Players Missing: Gabby Hartnett, Ted Simmons and possibly Lance Parrish.
1 PT - Moe Berg. 1.95 PTS. After "Ball Four," possibly my second favorite baseball book of all time. A really amazing story and I recommend the book and the movie. He has no business on this list. Doubt he ranks in the Top1000 catchers of all time. Played parts of 15 years. Don't think he was ever a #1 starter. Bseballref.com has a cool "similar" player stat and Moe's is Jorge Fabregas. He has a WAR of -4.9. Yes, minus. His two Top 10 Defensive years kept him from a negative score.
2 PTS - Elston Howard. 33.52 PTS. OPS+ of 108 was third lowest on list. WAR os 27.1 was second lowest. Only 2 OWTop10 and 3 DWarTop10. Wasn't on any of the three net lists.
3 PTS - Buck Ewing. 43.28 PTS. Played 18 years and only played 636 of 1345 at C. Had 627 games at 1B/3B/OF. Was on 2 WS winners, but didn't win any other awards. His OP+ of 129 was the tops of eights guys bunched at 123-129. That ties for second highest, but really didn't separate him from the pack. His OPS+ and DefWar Top 10's boosted him the difference over Howard.
4 PTS - Joe Mauer. 44.05 PTS. Played 15 years, but only in the first 10 years did he play Catcher. He averaged 92 games per year at C and only once had over 120 games at C. My first thought was to ding him hard for this. And then I thought about Yogi Berra, and checked him out to compare. Well, Yogi had eight straight seasons of over 120 games played at C, and most of those were close to 140 in a 154-game season. So I had to ding Mauer a few points for this. He did have 3 batting titles and an MVP, so he's definitely better than Ewing, but fits in has category also.
5 PTS - Thurman Munson. 45.11 PTS. Played 11 years and had a ROY, MVP, 2 WS Wins, and 7 AS. He had a ton of passed balls and errors that hurst his Def score. He did very well in the post season and left us way too early.
6 PTS - Buster Posey. 52.35 PTS. Has played 11 years also. 6 AS, ROY, MVP, Batting Title and 3 WS wins. Slightly better across the board than Munson. 41.8 WAR
7 PTS - Ivan Rodriguez. 58.97 PTS. WAR of 68.7 ranks 3rd on the list. Played 21 years, 14 AS, and one WS win. Had the lowest MVP share score of 1.04 of those that had a score. His seven DEF WAR Top10's to Posey's two, gave him most of the edge here over Posey.
8 PTS - Carlton Fisk. 60.36 PTS. WAR of 68.4 right under Pudge's for 4th. Had higher MVP share and OFF Top 10 seasons than Pudge. Def is where Pudge almost made up the ground. Barely beat Pudge on 2 of the three Net lists.
9 PTS - Josh Gibson. 66 PTS. This is where I slotted him. I just can't say he would have wound up better than the rest of the list. Had a great comparison here with Roy Campanella. Roy played 10 years, had 3 MVP, and played in 5 WS. Could Josh have topped that?. Just can't say yes. So i had to put him behind Roy and the next guy that was very close to Roy in PTS. Roy his 242 HR in 10 years. About every 20 AB. Josh hit a HR every 16 AB in the Negro Leagues, against much inferior pitching. Around 80% of Gibson's fabled HR's came as they barnstormed the country playing very weak semi-pro teams.
10 PTS - Mickey Cochrane. 67.94 PTS. Played 13 years, 2MVP and won 3 WS. Had seven Off Top 10 seasons. OPS+ of 129 was 2nd on list. Defensive skills were lacking. Had 4th highest MVP shares score. His D cost him the next spot.
11 PTS - Roy Campanella. 69.07 PTS. Played 10 years, 3 MVP and played is five Ws, winning one. Played in 8 AS games. Had six DEF Top10 seasons. He ranked higher than Cochrane on all three Net lists.
12 PTS - Bill Dickey. 70.91 PTS. Played 17 years, 11 AS and won 7 WS. His was WAR of 57.3 was higher than Roy's. Had two more OFF Top10 than Roy and the same amount of DEF Top 10. His OPS+ of 127 to Roy's 123 gave him a 1.4 PT edge. These guys are super close.
13 PTS - Mike Piazza. 75.02 PTS. Had 59.6 WAR. Played 18 years, 12 AS and a ROY. 59.6 WAR slightly ahead of Dickey. Had highest OPS+ at 142. Was incredibly bad behind the plate and ranks 7th all time in SB's allowed. That cost him a medal here. Was 3rd-7th on the three Net lists.
14 PTS - Gary Carter. 78.72 PTS. Had 70.1 WAR. Played 19 years, 11 AS, 1 WS win and two ASG MVP. Had one more Top 10 OFF season than Piazza. His nine DEF WAR Top 10's led the list. (Only three others had more than 5 DEF WAR Top 10).
15 PTS - Johnny Bench. 98.77 PTS. The last two are definitely a few steps up the ladder here. He played 17 tears, 14 AS, ROY, 2 MVP, 1 WS MVP. Won 2 WS. OPS+ of 126. had 6 OFF and 8 DEF Top 10 seasons. MVP share was 3rd on the list.
16 PTS - Yogi Berra. 102.92 PTS. (out of 120 possible). Played 19 years, won 3 MVP, 18 AS games and won 10 WS. OPS+ of 125. MVP share 3.98 was clearly better than the rest and #17 of any position in history. Bench had great post season numbers, but Yogi's were better. Yogi would tell you he is the Tom Brady of C's. Had 5 DEF Top 10 seasons to fend off Bench.
Names randomly entered.
Baseballref.com is great. They had Defensive War ratings on the catchers. Really wanted to factor D into this ranking and found out four of these guys really sucked on the defensive end.
So WAR, # of Offensive WAR Top 10 Seasons, # of Defensive WAR Top 10 seasons, Awards, Post Season performance, MVP Share, OPS+, and rankings from three solid Net lists were used. Each CAT weighted with the Net rankings the lowest weight.
Notable Players Missing: Gabby Hartnett, Ted Simmons and possibly Lance Parrish.
1 PT - Moe Berg. 1.95 PTS. After "Ball Four," possibly my second favorite baseball book of all time. A really amazing story and I recommend the book and the movie. He has no business on this list. Doubt he ranks in the Top1000 catchers of all time. Played parts of 15 years. Don't think he was ever a #1 starter. Bseballref.com has a cool "similar" player stat and Moe's is Jorge Fabregas. He has a WAR of -4.9. Yes, minus. His two Top 10 Defensive years kept him from a negative score.
2 PTS - Elston Howard. 33.52 PTS. OPS+ of 108 was third lowest on list. WAR os 27.1 was second lowest. Only 2 OWTop10 and 3 DWarTop10. Wasn't on any of the three net lists.
3 PTS - Buck Ewing. 43.28 PTS. Played 18 years and only played 636 of 1345 at C. Had 627 games at 1B/3B/OF. Was on 2 WS winners, but didn't win any other awards. His OP+ of 129 was the tops of eights guys bunched at 123-129. That ties for second highest, but really didn't separate him from the pack. His OPS+ and DefWar Top 10's boosted him the difference over Howard.
4 PTS - Joe Mauer. 44.05 PTS. Played 15 years, but only in the first 10 years did he play Catcher. He averaged 92 games per year at C and only once had over 120 games at C. My first thought was to ding him hard for this. And then I thought about Yogi Berra, and checked him out to compare. Well, Yogi had eight straight seasons of over 120 games played at C, and most of those were close to 140 in a 154-game season. So I had to ding Mauer a few points for this. He did have 3 batting titles and an MVP, so he's definitely better than Ewing, but fits in has category also.
5 PTS - Thurman Munson. 45.11 PTS. Played 11 years and had a ROY, MVP, 2 WS Wins, and 7 AS. He had a ton of passed balls and errors that hurst his Def score. He did very well in the post season and left us way too early.
6 PTS - Buster Posey. 52.35 PTS. Has played 11 years also. 6 AS, ROY, MVP, Batting Title and 3 WS wins. Slightly better across the board than Munson. 41.8 WAR
7 PTS - Ivan Rodriguez. 58.97 PTS. WAR of 68.7 ranks 3rd on the list. Played 21 years, 14 AS, and one WS win. Had the lowest MVP share score of 1.04 of those that had a score. His seven DEF WAR Top10's to Posey's two, gave him most of the edge here over Posey.
8 PTS - Carlton Fisk. 60.36 PTS. WAR of 68.4 right under Pudge's for 4th. Had higher MVP share and OFF Top 10 seasons than Pudge. Def is where Pudge almost made up the ground. Barely beat Pudge on 2 of the three Net lists.
9 PTS - Josh Gibson. 66 PTS. This is where I slotted him. I just can't say he would have wound up better than the rest of the list. Had a great comparison here with Roy Campanella. Roy played 10 years, had 3 MVP, and played in 5 WS. Could Josh have topped that?. Just can't say yes. So i had to put him behind Roy and the next guy that was very close to Roy in PTS. Roy his 242 HR in 10 years. About every 20 AB. Josh hit a HR every 16 AB in the Negro Leagues, against much inferior pitching. Around 80% of Gibson's fabled HR's came as they barnstormed the country playing very weak semi-pro teams.
10 PTS - Mickey Cochrane. 67.94 PTS. Played 13 years, 2MVP and won 3 WS. Had seven Off Top 10 seasons. OPS+ of 129 was 2nd on list. Defensive skills were lacking. Had 4th highest MVP shares score. His D cost him the next spot.
11 PTS - Roy Campanella. 69.07 PTS. Played 10 years, 3 MVP and played is five Ws, winning one. Played in 8 AS games. Had six DEF Top10 seasons. He ranked higher than Cochrane on all three Net lists.
12 PTS - Bill Dickey. 70.91 PTS. Played 17 years, 11 AS and won 7 WS. His was WAR of 57.3 was higher than Roy's. Had two more OFF Top10 than Roy and the same amount of DEF Top 10. His OPS+ of 127 to Roy's 123 gave him a 1.4 PT edge. These guys are super close.
13 PTS - Mike Piazza. 75.02 PTS. Had 59.6 WAR. Played 18 years, 12 AS and a ROY. 59.6 WAR slightly ahead of Dickey. Had highest OPS+ at 142. Was incredibly bad behind the plate and ranks 7th all time in SB's allowed. That cost him a medal here. Was 3rd-7th on the three Net lists.
14 PTS - Gary Carter. 78.72 PTS. Had 70.1 WAR. Played 19 years, 11 AS, 1 WS win and two ASG MVP. Had one more Top 10 OFF season than Piazza. His nine DEF WAR Top 10's led the list. (Only three others had more than 5 DEF WAR Top 10).
15 PTS - Johnny Bench. 98.77 PTS. The last two are definitely a few steps up the ladder here. He played 17 tears, 14 AS, ROY, 2 MVP, 1 WS MVP. Won 2 WS. OPS+ of 126. had 6 OFF and 8 DEF Top 10 seasons. MVP share was 3rd on the list.
16 PTS - Yogi Berra. 102.92 PTS. (out of 120 possible). Played 19 years, won 3 MVP, 18 AS games and won 10 WS. OPS+ of 125. MVP share 3.98 was clearly better than the rest and #17 of any position in history. Bench had great post season numbers, but Yogi's were better. Yogi would tell you he is the Tom Brady of C's. Had 5 DEF Top 10 seasons to fend off Bench.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after Getzlaf15's rankings of MLB C's...
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--302--3--0--2=5
2 --DougB--296--4--2--1=7
3 --Ilov80s--296--2--4--1=7
4 --tuffnutt--296--3--1--4=8. (bronze)
5 --Zow--281--3--2--3=8
6 --AAABatteries--278--2--1--4=7
7 --otb_lifer--268--0--2--1=3
8 --jwb--266--2--4--1=7
9 --Getzlaf15--262--1--3--2=6
10 -Long Ball Larry--258--1--2--3=6
11 -timschochet--254--1--2--3=6
12 -joffer--248--3--3--0=6 (gold)
13 -higgins--242--1--1--2=4 (silver)
14 -Jagov--241--2--3--0=5
15 -wikkidpissah--222--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--205--2--1--0=3
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--302--3--0--2=5
2 --DougB--296--4--2--1=7
3 --Ilov80s--296--2--4--1=7
4 --tuffnutt--296--3--1--4=8. (bronze)
5 --Zow--281--3--2--3=8
6 --AAABatteries--278--2--1--4=7
7 --otb_lifer--268--0--2--1=3
8 --jwb--266--2--4--1=7
9 --Getzlaf15--262--1--3--2=6
10 -Long Ball Larry--258--1--2--3=6
11 -timschochet--254--1--2--3=6
12 -joffer--248--3--3--0=6 (gold)
13 -higgins--242--1--1--2=4 (silver)
14 -Jagov--241--2--3--0=5
15 -wikkidpissah--222--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--205--2--1--0=3
Zow
Footballguy
Intersting that Hoffman was not considered to have "dread." He throws a "heavy" ball into the kitchens of right-handed batters. Top 3 in the guys I wouldn't want to face as a righty.
I'm curious: would Aroldis Chapman or Papelbon scored higher than Quiz? I had it as a toss-up of the three.
I'm curious: would Aroldis Chapman or Papelbon scored higher than Quiz? I had it as a toss-up of the three.
Zow
Footballguy
Encumbrance
Footballguy
Great insight about Hoffman from @wikkidpissah. I fully agree with it. When your dominant pitch is your changeup and you throw ninety tops, there's no dread. Nobody -- I mean nobody -- feared Pedro once he hurt his arm in 2000 and threw nineties the rest of his days. He was still great, though. But nothing approaching dread. Same for Hoffman.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I was hoping Campanella might get a little benefit of the doubt being that he wasn’t allowed to play in MLB until he was 26 due to segregation and it was cut short due to a car accident that left him paralyzed. He only played 10 years in MLB and got 3 MVPs which I think is the most for any catcher ever. Also statistically speaking, he’s still the toughest catcher to run on ever: 57% of guys who tried were thrown out. Those are the breaks though when ranking the best of the best.
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