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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (2 Viewers)

otb_lifer said:
Jockey Judging

currently whipping this list into order, we're approaching the 1/2m pole in roughly :22.3

Criteria:

quality wins - they've been running the TC races since Moses wore short pants ... huge factor (as is BC, but that didn't debut 'til 1984 - old timers will be judged accordingly by their major Gr.I wins in lieu of).

versatility - surfaces, weather, distance ... discipline.

stable (great horses piloted) - your #### had to have been atop some of the greats - means you had trust of the game's premier  connections, if not flat-out first call. 

instinct/intuition - not impressed at booting home towering favorites in five horse fields - i'm looking for riders who made a difference in crunch time when it mattered most!

interesting group of contenders, absence of the likes of Mike Smith and Stevie Cauthen, e.g., (among others) is quizzical ... they would've made this a hell of a lot tougher, no question.  

:deadhorse:
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Criteria addendum: infrequency of wins on the California fair circuit, where some of the competition hold onto the mane for dear life

 
jwb said:
otb_lifer said:
easily Carlton going 27-10, 1.97 ERA, 310 Ks for a team that only won 59 games. 

dunno how the newfangled stat nerds grade that, but it's the greatest accomplishment in pitching, imo
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wow, almost half the team's wins. Incredible.
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Per BR it’s the best WAR for a pitcher since 1960. Fan Graphs WAR doesn’t factor innings pitched so 9 of their top ten WAR is between 1994-2005, while BR favors the 300+ IP guys who were commonplace in the 60s and 70s. ERA+ factors in ballpark and era but still skews the steroid boys - 15 of the top 25 are 1994-2005. Pedro had like 5 extraordinary years and Big Unit had a couple amazing ones but those guys pitched 100 less IP /season than the Koufax-Gibson-Seaver-Carlton era.

Really hard trusting advanced stats which skew to a particular era. IDK the answer is my final answer.

 
What is the difference on page 1 with regards to bolded judges names and non bolded names?  I thought maybe one or the other were the completed categories but that isn't the case. 

It might be nice if the categories still to be judged were bolded and the already were unbolded.  A nice little snap shot of what's to come and what has already been.   @Ramsay Hunt Experience can be partially bolded since he is partially done..hahha

 
Gally said:
What is the difference on page 1 with regards to bolded judges names and non bolded names?  I thought maybe one or the other were the completed categories but that isn't the case. 

It might be nice if the categories still to be judged were bolded and the already were unbolded.  A nice little snap shot of what's to come and what has already been.   @Ramsay Hunt Experience can be partially bolded since he is partially done..hahha
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yeah @timschochet housabout you contribute something to this draft & format that up for us?

:P

 
BobbyLayne said:
OK Gibson 1968 would be my answer, by a nose over ‘72 Carlton’ ‘85 Gooden, and ‘00 Pedro.
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kind of a shame that Maddux's season where he challenged Gibby's 1.12 (and Maddux himself) is being somewhat lost in time. Koufax's '64 & '65 were the conquering of a gift no one thought would be harnessed, Gibby's '68 a Triumph of inner fire, Doc's a showcase of prodigy, Pedro's of sass, but Maddux did his crowning achievement as a servant to perfection, the ultimate student of repeatability. And that's the quest - birdie or better on every hole, no matter what one's natural talents, n'est ce pas?

 
wikkidpissah said:
ya been? suddenly, "stuck in Lodi again" aint so bad...
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I've done the Sonoma County Fair.   Hit a 25-1 Maiden with $20 across on him.    Wife's BF hit me for my #1 pet peeve the second he crossed the line.  "So Getz, you're taking us out for dinner and drinks tonight, right?"     :rant:

 
Jockeys - Part One

for reference sake, TC refers to "Triple Crown" (Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont Stakes) races, BC refers to "Breeders Cup" races - the end of season "all-star" championship in every discipline.

now, on to the countdown ...

"went to the qwhip too often" tier:

Sancho Panza - 1 pt.

would appreciate the shtick more had this been the 16th selection ... but 9th off the board? no Sanchoism can rationalize that - only guy keeping Baze from 16th. 

"Sadaharu Oh" tier:

Russel Baze - 2 pts.

not one major (TC, BC) pelt on the resumé, even with all that racing ... hasn't cracked top 20 in earnings for the season once this century despite winning a ton of races - respect for getting out there and riding for as long as he did, but given the field here, this is exactly where he belongs - had it not been for Cervantes he'd be 16th, which is fair, given his lack of big time wins - dominating bullrings like Bay Meadows and Golden Gate Fields on1/9 prohibs is not gonna cut it - all the records, but it all rings hollow in the bigger picture here. 

"ya win some, ya lose some" tier:

Javier Castellano - 3 pts.

Javi had a run some 6 years ago where he couldn't miss (unless i bet on him) ... has been a stout BC pilot, but has only two TC wins to show, both in the Preakness (including one on Bernardini after Barbaro broke down), which is a track he hardly rides on otherwise - lack of Belmont success is troubling, seeing as it's his home track, and no KDs even though he gets top call from some prominent barns - biggest moment was Ghostzapper in the '04 BC Classic ... tons of wins and coin, but i can't go any higher given the lot in front, and given Javi's propensity to disappear in the big moments a tad too often. 

"league of his own" tier:

Issac Murphy - 4 pts.

love this pick, and from an historical perspective he cannot be touched ... 3 Derby pelts, and quite a haul from assorted other big ticket races of his time - if legend is to be believed, he won roughly 40% of his starts ... pioneering for the African American racing community in so many ways, wish i could shoehorn him up a couple clicks, but i feel this is the right spot - interesting to note that Russel Baze has won the most Issac Murphy awards (given to jock with highest season win %).

🐴  back after breakfast with some more - still sorting the middle tiers 🐴

 
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Guys, I have been swamped all week with work. I'll get the gymnastic rankings finished and posted this weekend. Scouts honor!

 
Jockeys - Part Two

"Bobby Boucher" tier:

Eddie Delahoussaye - 5 pts.

Eddie was a fantastic and fluid cat, a dominant rider on the real Cali circuit at his peak - along with 5 TC race wins (winning each leg at least once), and 7 BC crowns. 

had a penchant for booting home some bigger odds horses, and certainly got the most out of every surface he rode on ... remarkable versatility, and rode his best when the big Stakes were on the line.   

signature win was the 1982 Kentucky Derby, where he booted home 21-1 shot Gato Del Sol, who became the first Arkansas Derby winner to ever capture the roses - most storied mount was the legendary A.P. Indy, who Eddie rode to victory in the '92 Belmont, along the way to Horse of the Year honors.  

Kent Desormeaux - 6 pts.

Desormeaux is a great rider ... when his head is in the game, there are/were few better.

but he was a mercurial sum#####, tempermental, ornery ... and troubled by battles with the bottle - gets dinged for that more than anything ... trainers grew to distrust him way too much, and i can't say i blame them ... ya never knew which KD was showing up. 

but, as i said, when he DID show up, he was spectacular - 7 TC races won (3 Derbys), along with 6 BC crowns ... his near miss of the Triple Crown on Real Quiet in '98 was devestating - arguably the biggest heartbreak in TC history if not the greatest big time race you'll ever see - did KD move him too urgently, too soon?

he would come back with both Fusaichi Pegasus and Big Brown for impressive Derby wins, taking the latter all the way to Belmont with the TC on the line ('08) ... but there were some dodgy goings on prior to - the barn was a notorious red flag magnet ... and the prohib fave pulled up lame before the first 1/4 mile. 

perhaps the most star crossed cat to ever ride at such a high level ... most by his own devices, which makes the promise of what could have been all the more bittersweet.

ETA: wanted to finish this all by noon, but i got all three ####### terlits in the house on the fritz this morning ... it's none too pleasant(on).

bear with.  

 
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wikkidpissah said:
kind of a shame that Maddux's season where he challenged Gibby's 1.12 (and Maddux himself) is being somewhat lost in time. Koufax's '64 & '65 were the conquering of a gift no one thought would be harnessed, Gibby's '68 a Triumph of inner fire, Doc's a showcase of prodigy, Pedro's of sass, but Maddux did his crowning achievement as a servant to perfection, the ultimate student of repeatability. And that's the quest - birdie or better on every hole, no matter what one's natural talents, n'est ce pas?
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1994-95 was pretty amazing - back to back unanimous CYA.

Top 5 ERA seasons in the expansion era 1961-present:

Bob Gibson 1.12 (1968)

Dwight Gooden 1.53 (1985)

Greg Maddux 1.56 (1994)

Luis Tiant 1.60 (1968)

Greg Maddux 1.63 (1995)

Pedro’s 1.74 ‘00 is 11th, deGrom 1.70 ‘18 is 8th

Fielding Independent Pitching

3 color photos / 21 B&W says a lot - all the dead ball patchers racked them up between 1904-1910

Mathewson & W. Johnson - top 2, 4 of the top 11, super impressive - but how to account for the era? Maybe ERA- since that measures performance relative to league average? IDK

Pedro ‘99 3rd, Doc ‘84 14th, Gibson ‘68 19th Kershaw ‘14 25th

Expansion era FIP (1961-2019)

13. Luis Tiant 2.04 ‘68    
12. Steve Carlton 2.01 ‘72 
11. Matt Harvey 2.01 ‘13

10. Clayton Kershaw 1.991 ‘15    
  9. Jacob deGrom 1.985 ‘18   
  8. Chris Sale  1.98 ‘18 **
  7. Tom Seaver 1.931 ‘71  
  6. Sandy Koufax 1.927 ‘65   

  5. Sandy Koufax 1.852 ‘63    
  4. Clayton Kershaw 1.811 ’14   
  3. Bob Gibson 1.775 ‘68    
  2. Dwight Gooden 1.685 ‘84
  1. Pedro Martinez 1.395 ’99   

** injury shortened - DNQ min 162 pitched 158

Maddux led the NL in FIP 4 straight seasons, best were ‘94-‘95 2.39 & 2.26. I also looked at Blue (1.76 ‘71), Guidry (1.74 ‘78), Ryan (1.69 ‘81), all were higher then The Professor.

FIP is similar to ERA, but it focuses solely on the events a pitcher has the most control over -- strikeouts, unintentional walks, hit-by-pitches and home runs. It entirely removes results on balls hit into the field of play. The formula is (13*HR+3*(HBP+BB)-2*K)/IP, plus a constant (usually around 3.2) to put it on the same scale as earned run average.

FIP was developed because BAIP has wild fluctuations for the same pitcher year over year. What it tells us is how a pitcher fared on events that were close to 100 percent in his control. Since we know that factors like luck and defense play into ERA, it’s valuable to know how a pitcher does in terms of events for which he’s solely responsible.

Adjusted ERA+

of the 24 avatars on my phone the majority are from the steroids era 

W. Johnson 2 of the top 9

Pedro #2, T9, 18th

Maddux 4th & 5th

The other 3 in front of Gibson ‘68 at 7th are prewar. Pre WWI that is. Gooden 12th. Scumbag Roger checking in at 13 & 16. Expansion era pitchers are 7 of the top 16 and 13 of the top 24.

________________

ETA: Carlton ‘72 (182) is T97, behind all the aforementioned + 2 from Koufax, 2 from Greinke, 3 from Cheat-code Clemens, 3 from Kershaw, 4 from Maddox, 5 from the Big Unit, 6 from Pedro, Gibson & Tiant ‘68, Blue, Seaver & Wilbur freaking Wood ‘71, Guidry ‘78, Gooden ‘85, Kluber ‘17, deGrom ‘18, Cole ‘19. 45 seasons from the expansion era, 43 after the mound was lowered.

Carlton is King of WAR - his 12.2 is the highest since the dead ball era.

27-10 on a 59 win team is incredible, and 1.97 ERA is great under any circumstances. 310 Ks, 346 IP - very impressive (though not an extreme outlier for power pitching heavy period.) 

But In Carlton’s 41 starts the Phillies averaged 3.8 r/g. That was almost League average (3.9) and significantly better than the teams 3.2 for the year. For games he didn’t start, it was 3.0.

________________

ERA+ adjusts a pitcher's earned run average (ERA) according to the pitcher's ballpark (in case the ballpark favors batters or pitchers) and the ERA of the pitcher's league. ERA+ is similar to ERA- because both are measuring a pitcher in comparison to league average, but ERA+ tells you how much better or worse the rest of the league was. Formula is 100*[lgERA/ERA] Adjusted to the player’s ballpark(s). For example, Pedro’s ‘00 was 291 or 191% better than league average after adjusting for Fenway Park.

HEY GUYS I FELL INTO A SABR HOLE AND NOT SURE WHEN I WILL BE ABLE TO CLIMB OUT

 
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Long Ball Larry said:
Today is the 50th anniversary of Dock Ellis throwing  a no-hitter while tripping on LSD.

I considered taking that as my greatest baseball moment.
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What was Keith Hernandez estimate on cocaine usage in the mid-80s? 40%? 

Of course he revised that after speaking to a NYC PR firm.

 
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Jockeys - Part Three 

- HALF MILE POLE - 

all the riders left are absolute greats, with very little seperating each rung up the ladder ... would gladly take any of 'em on any day, on any surface, at any distance ... this is Jockey Royalty:

"A Man For All Seasons" tier:

Frankie Detorri - 7  pts. 

has won major races in TWENTY FOUR countries ... his flying dismount is the signature move in the sport, and Detorri has punished his back hundreds upon hundreds of times in celebration. 

the most accomplished latter day rider in Europe, mostly in Great Britain, he has multiple wins in all of the big contests, including a whopping 7 in the Ascot Gold Cup, a race which is 7 furlongs longer than the Belmont Stakes.

gets a slight knock for the substance abuse messes, but a more versatile and resilient jock (survived a gruesome plane crash in 2000) you will not find out there these days - incredible career, with 14 BC pelts to show for his work. 

"My Three Sons" tier:

Gary Stevens - 8 pts.

as the tier suggests, the next three are virtually interchangeable- but we gonna rank anyways ...

Stevens will be lowest here due to his intermittent absences ... whether it be injuries, or retiring from the gig due to the injuries - he missed time, and took up as an analyst.

has bagged big time wins all over the globe, and has 3 wins in each of the TC series races, and 11 BC crowns, including 4 in the distaff. 

a remarkable money rider with tons of Gr.I wins to his credit - including 9 Santa Anita Derbys. 

his most storied work was on super filly Serenas Song, who he guided to wins over the fellas in both the Jim Beam and the Haskell.  

other great mounts were Silver Charm, Point Given, Winning Colors, Silverbulletlady ... my favorite ride of his was booting Oxbow home in the '13 Preakness ... Stevens had plenty of horse, and Ox wanted to runrunrun - but Stevens reined him in, then used the reserve to romp home at 15-1, cashing me a beauty ticket up and down the exotics.  

Chris McCarron - 9 pts.

most noted for winning roughly 21% of his mounts, which is a remarkable feat ... tack on a pair of wins in each TC leg, 8 BC crowns, including 5 in the BC Classic (giving the nod over Bailey for this).

he set the then record for wins in a season (574) ... moved out to Cali in  '77 and won a boatload of Gr.I races, including 6 Del Mar Handicaps.

most storied work was on the legendary Tiznow, taking back to back BC Classics, the only time a horse achieved that feat.

other notables include Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Touch Gold, Go for Gin ... tough tier here, but i think this is a fair slot for Mac. 

Jerry Bailey - 10 pts.

he retired as #2 on the all-time earnings list, and still sits at #3 - guy won some major races. 

has 2 wins in each of the TC races, and 15 BC crowns, including 5 in the BC Classic.  

career really took a turn up when he got first call for legendary trainer Bobby Frankel - their first year together saw Bailey set a record in yearly earnings, as he continued to ride as a dominant force in Cali, as well as taking down 7 rider's titles at storied Saratoga. 

his most acclaimed work was on Champion gelding Cigar - their 1995 season was unprecedented, as they went 10-0, capped off by the BC Classic win for the ages -  that was in the midst of a record tying 16 race winning streak, which culminated in taking down the Inaugural Dubai World Cup. 

other notables were Congaree, Medaglia d'Oro, Empire Maker, Saint Liam ... Bailey had the chops, got the calls, delivered the goods. 

- plumber here, one functioning terlit ... hope to wrap this up after dinner - 

 
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otb_lifer said:
Gary Stevens - 8 pts.

as the tier suggests, the next three are virtually interchangeable- but we gonna rank anyways ...

Stevens will be lowest here due to his intermittent absences ... whether it be injuries, or retiring from the gig due to the injuries - he missed time, and took up as an analyst.

has bagged big time wins all over the globe, and has 3 wins in each of the TC series races, and 11 BC crowns, including 4 in the distaff. 

a remarkable money rider with tons of Gr.I wins to his credit - including 9 Santa Anita Derbys. 

his most storied work was on super filly Serenas Song, who he guided to wins over the fellas in both the Jim Beam and the Haskell.  

other great mounts were Silver Charm, Point Given, Winning Colors, Silverbulletlady ... my favorite ride of his was booting Oxbow home in the '13 Preakness ... Stevens had plenty of horse, and Ox wanted to runrunrun - but Stevens reined him in, then used the reserve to romp home at 15-1, cashing me a beauty ticket up and down the exotics.  
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Two spots from being Mr. Irrelevant (60.14).  I'll take it!

 
The primary criteria for these rankings are as follows:

-World swimmer of the year awards
-Individual Olympic medals
-Team Olympic medals
-Number of events with World records set
-Total time holding each world record 
-Gold medals in world aquatic championships, fina world championships, pan pacific games, pan American games
-Versatility
-Adjustments for swimmers predating the non-Olympic championships and world swimmer of the year
-Number of Years Actively Medaling

I mainly came up with those categories by reading profiles for each participant and they seemed to have the most commonality among all the swimmers.  Coincidentally, I happened to be looking up a few things on the swimming hall of fame website and they use almost the exact same criteria.  I will be submitting these rankings to them for enshrinement.

The first six items were assigned scientifically-determined weighted scores and are as follows:

-World Swimmer of the year = 15
-Individual Olympic Gold = 10, Silver = 7, Bronze = 4
-Team Olympic Gold = 5, Silver = 3, Bronze = 1
-Number of events with World records set = 2 each
-Total time holding each world record  = .5 per year held
-Individual Gold medals in World Aquatic Championships = 3
-Individual Gold medals in FINA World Championships = 2
-Individual Gold medals in Pan pacific games, European or Pan American games = 1

Then I basically tiered based on scores and re-adjusted a bit based on those swimming pre-championships and awards.

Within tiers, preference was given to versatility of stroke, years medaling and individual performances rather than team.

I think that's everything except for all the other capricious and arbitrary elements I will also infuse.  

:starterspistol: 

 
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SWIMMING JUDGING

BOTTOM 3

16 - 1 point





MARTIN STREL

This freak swam the entire Amazon River, among several other rivers.  Since the person who drafted him did the female swimming rankings and put Nyed last, hopefully he will understand that there is pretty much no way to compare him to the rest of the entrants, though I might not be totally opposed to bumping him up slightly.  Ultimately, he is really more of a sideshow novelty than a great swimmer, IMO, so he gets this spot of ignominy.

15 - 2 points





NATHAN ADRIAN

-World Swimmer of the Year Score = 0
-Individual Olympic Medals Score = 18
-Team Olympic medals Score = 23
-Number of events with World records Score = 0
-Total time holding each world record Score = 0
-Gold medals in other Competitions Score = 42

Major Pros
-Decent non-Olympic record
-Long-ish career and still building

Major Cons
-No swimmer of the year awards
-No world records set
-Low individual Olympics scoring
-Low individual non-Olympics scoring

He's obviously very talented, but ultimately just feels like there is not a lot of there there with this guy.  No world records, no awards and few individual golds put him at the bottom of the competitive swimmers.

14 - 3 points  





GARY HALL, JR.

World Swimmer of the Year Score = 15
Individual Olympic Medals Score = 38
Team Olympic medals Score = 19
Number of events with World records Score= 0
Total time holding each world record Score = 0
Gold medals in other Competitions Score = 14

Major Pros
-6th-highest Olympic score
-2nd-longest "career" from medal-to-medal

Major Cons
-No swimmer of the year awards
-No world records set
-Low other Competitions Score
-Didn't really compete much outside of the Olympics partly due to medical issues

Super talented guy and seems like he could have really racked up a lot more, but did not swim as much as a lot of the other guys and he and Adrian are the only ones who did not either win a Swimmer of the Year Award or set a World Record (everyone else set a World Record in at least 2 events).  Was an Olympic powerhouse, but at the end of the day, his full body of work just doesn't quite measure up.

 
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Long Ball Larry said:
SWIMMING JUDGING

BOTTOM 3

16 - 1 point

MARTIN STREL

This freak swam the entire Amazon River, among several other rivers.  Since the person who drafted him did the female swimming rankings and put Nyed last, hopefully he will understand that there is pretty much no way to compare him to the rest of the entrants, though I might not be totally opposed to bumping him up slightly.  Ultimately, he is really more of a sideshow novelty than a great swimmer, IMO, so he gets this spot of ignominy.
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I have no problem with this guy being 16th.  I think I look more fit than this dude.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
I'm straight, but I think I'm in love with this guy. He swam the freaking Amazon?
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Strel was born in the town of Mokronog, in the Slovenian region of Lower Carniola, then part of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Strel's first two river swims were the Krka river (105 km) in his homeland, in 28 hours in 1992, and the boundary Kolpa river (62 kilometres (39 mi)), in 16 hours in 1993. In 2000, he swam the Danube River (2,860 kilometres (1,780 mi)) and achieved the world long distance swimming record (3,004 kilometres (1,867 mi)) in 58 days. In July 2001, he achieved one more world record — 504.5 kilometres (313.5 mi) of non-stop swimming in Danube within 84 hours and 10 minutes. He lost 40 pounds of weight.

In 2002, he swam the entire Mississippi River (3,885 kilometres (2,414 mi)) in 68 days. In 2003, he swam the Argentine Paraná River (3,998 kilometres (2,484 mi)). On 10 June 2004, Martin started swimming down the Yangtze River (4,003 kilometres (2,487 mi), the longest river in Asia, the third longest in the world) in China. He reached Shanghai in 40 days on 30 July 2004, one day before planned.

Strel swam the Amazon River, commencing on 1 February 2007,[3] finishing 66 days later on April 7, 2007. This was a record-breaking distance of 5,268 kilometres (3,273 mi), longer than the width of the Atlantic Ocean. He had escort boats that were prepared to pour blood into the river to distract meat-eating fish such as piranhas.

In 2007, the Nile had been proposed as his next river, but Strel said, "I am not going to do the Nile. It's long but not challenging enough, it is just a small creek. The Amazon is much more mighty."

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Strel was born in the town of Mokronog, in the Slovenian region of Lower Carniola, then part of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Strel's first two river swims were the Krka river (105 km) in his homeland, in 28 hours in 1992, and the boundary Kolpa river (62 kilometres (39 mi)), in 16 hours in 1993. In 2000, he swam the Danube River (2,860 kilometres (1,780 mi)) and achieved the world long distance swimming record (3,004 kilometres (1,867 mi)) in 58 days. In July 2001, he achieved one more world record — 504.5 kilometres (313.5 mi) of non-stop swimming in Danube within 84 hours and 10 minutes. He lost 40 pounds of weight.

In 2002, he swam the entire Mississippi River (3,885 kilometres (2,414 mi)) in 68 days. In 2003, he swam the Argentine Paraná River (3,998 kilometres (2,484 mi)). On 10 June 2004, Martin started swimming down the Yangtze River (4,003 kilometres (2,487 mi), the longest river in Asia, the third longest in the world) in China. He reached Shanghai in 40 days on 30 July 2004, one day before planned.

Strel swam the Amazon River, commencing on 1 February 2007,[3] finishing 66 days later on April 7, 2007. This was a record-breaking distance of 5,268 kilometres (3,273 mi), longer than the width of the Atlantic Ocean. He had escort boats that were prepared to pour blood into the river to distract meat-eating fish such as piranhas.

In 2007, the Nile had been proposed as his next river, but Strel said, "I am not going to do the Nile. It's long but not challenging enough, it is just a small creek. The Amazon is much more mighty."
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He chain-smokes, doesn't he?

 
13 - 4 points





CAELEB DRESSEL

-World Swimmer of the Year Score = 30
-Individual Olympic Medals Score = 0
-Team Olympic medals = 10
-Number of events with World records set = 4
-Total time holding each world record = .5
-Gold medals in other Competitions = 53

Major Pros
-3rd-highest score in non-Olympic competitions
-1 of only 6 with 2 swimmer of the year awards
-Strong in 2 different strokes

Major Cons
-Fewest years in career
-Set 2 current world records, but each is only 1 year old
-No Individual Olympic Golds
-Only 2 total Olympic Golds (only competed once)

Seems like an ascending talent and has been dominating the world competitions in his events the past few years.  Will be interesting to see if he can sustain and in a few years, seems like he could be a lot higher on the list, but for now, this seems right based on his existing resume.

12 - 5 points





DON SCHOLLANDER

-World Swimmer of the Year Score = 15
-Individual Olympic Medals Score = 27
-Team Olympic medals = 15
-Number of events with World records set = 4
-Total time holding each world record = 4.5
-Gold medals in other Competitions = 3

Major Pros
-Very strong 1964 Olympics
-Held a world record for 7 years
-Inaugural swimmer of the year

Major Cons
-2nd-fewest years in career
-Very little racing outside of Olympics

Initially I had him a bit higher, I guess based on the first glance at him winning the first Swimmer of the Year award coming off a very strong 1964 Olympics.  But the more I kept comparing resumes, he really didn't do much outside of that year.  He did pre-date some of the competitions, but still was only 23 in 1968 when he had a disappointing Olympics and then retired shortly thereafter, so I can't really give him much in the way of missed opportunity points.  Not even 100% sure he should be ahead of Dressel, but  will give him the benefit of the doubt for his legacy and having the one dominant Olympics performance.

11 - 6 points





ROWDY GAINES

-World Swimmer of the Year Score = 15
-Individual Olympic Medals Score = 10
-Team Olympic medals = 10
-Number of events with World records Score = 6
-Total time holding each world record Score = 3.5
-Gold medals in other Competitions Score = 22

Major Pros
-Swimmer of the year award
-Decent non-Olympics career

Major Cons
-2nd-fewest years in career
-Low Olympic Score due to 1980 boycott (probably lost 25 points)
-World records were all very short-lived

Short career, but had a long peak and his legacy was majorly damaged by the 1980 Olympic boycott.  He was the Swimmer of the Year in 1980, so it seems totally reasonable that he would have won several gold medals that year, which would have really boosted his score.  Maybe he would have had one of these all-time performances and would have boosted him into the top 10, but this seems fair.

 
10 - 7 points





MICHAEL PHELPS

Isn't the narrative of this biological freak of a pothead kind of overblown??

JUST KIDDING...

10 - 7 points





DUKE KAHANAMOKU

World Swimmer of the Year Score = 0 (pre-dates award)
Individual Olympic Medals Score = 27
Team Olympic medals = 8
Number of events with World Records set = 4
Total time holding each World Record = 6
Gold medals in other Competitions = 0 (pre-dates other competitions)

Major Pros
Medaled in 3 separate Olympics
Set several records and likely was the best swimmer for about a 10-year period

Major Cons
Pre-dates much of the Swimming Competition and Awards circuit (would probably have picked up 30-50 points if these were around)
Competition and record times hard to gauge

One of the toughest guys to rank.  The pioneer among this group, something about him has a bit of an apocryphal feel, but obviously he won those Olympic medals, so there must be a fair amount of truth to it.  Still, aside from 1 other guy, prior to the 1960s, he seems to be about as good as it gets.  Seems fairly obvious that he could have won some prestigious competitions and awards during the teens, had they existed, so I am slotting him in here.

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May not have any more tonight.  Still considering ordering of the next few.  We'll see.

 
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