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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (1 Viewer)

Kaline v Rose

Pete Rose
1963-1976 CIN (Yr 1-Yr 14 / age 22 to age 35)
G 2184 PA 10001 AB 8886 R 1459 H 2762  
2b 483 3B 101 HR 134 RBI 838    
SB 106 CS 96 BB 957 K 827     


Al Kaline
1954-1967 DET (Yr 2-Yr 15 / age 19 to age 32)
G 1963 PA 8313 AB 7287 R 1200 H 2221
2b 372 3B 64 HR 303 RBI 1193    
SB 116 CS 48 BB 886 K 673     

Rose dominates virtually every counting stat. Kaline played 7 (or 1/2) these seasons on 154 game schedules, had three serious injuries (broken ankle, dislocated shoulder, broken hand) that caused him to miss significant time on the DL.

Pete’s durability is AMAZING. If we look at other artificial endpoints: 1969-1982, he missed 16 games in 14 seasons, 1972-81, 5 G in 10 years, 1970-76, 7 G in 7.

Besides power hitting hitting, the only edge for Kaline appears to be base running, BB rate and K rate.

Pete Rose   
AVG .311 OBP .381 SLG .433 OPS .814   
OPS+ 127 TB 3849     
GDP 145 HBP 68 SH 35 SF 40 IBB 111

Al Kaline     
AVG .305 OBP .380 SLG .498 OPS .878 
OPS+ 138 TB 3630 
GDP 190 HBP 36 SH 38 SF 66 IBB 97

Close on average, OBP virtually the same, Kaline way better at hitting HR so of course SLG OPS..

Pete Rose   
MVP, WS MVP, 3 Batting Titles, 2 Gold Gloves, 5 postseasons, 4 Pennants, 3 WSC (WS 23 G 0.65 WPA)

Al Kaline   
1 Batting Title, 10 Gold Gloves, 1 Pennant, 1 WSC (2-8-.379-.480-.655 7 G 0.48 WPA)

Except for the GG it’s Rose all the way on hardware.

The Win Probability Added for the WS is interesting. That’s a culminated #; Rose outperformed Bench/Perez/Morgan. 0.65 WPA/23 G = 0.0282/G in his Reds career.

For 34 G WS career it’s 0.72 or 0.0209/G. For all 67 postseason games, WPA 2.64 or 0.0394 /G.

The time period considerEd doesn’t account for the ‘72 ALCS, Kaline’s only other postseason. His WPA in 5 G was 0.35, giving him 0.83 in 12 G (0.0691 /G.)

Are your eyes glazed over yet? One more.

Pete Rose   
Rbat 334
Rbaser 20
Rfield 18
WAR 71.5
oWAR 67.8 
dWAR -0.3

Al Kaline   
Rbat 381
Rbaser 35
Rfield 149
WAR 76.3
oWAR 61.8 
dWAR 7.7

Commence the eye rolling.

:lmao:    
   
Quick & dirty explain:

Rbat - how much better than avg batting?
Rbaser - how much better than avg base running?
Rfield - how much better than average fielding?
WAR - wins above replacement (all aspects) 
oWAR - wins above replacement offensively 
dWAR - wins above replacement defensively 

Kaline is more valuable per advanced SABR stats in batting, base running, overall, and fielding. Sample size matters, but he was clutch in both postseasons and both tight pennant races (‘67 & ‘72.)

Rose is better offensive WAR (all aspects) because the way the formula works; basically, if you do the same in 750 PA as another player does in 600 PA, your WAR will be significantly higher. That makes sense - the longer you excel, the greater the sample, the less likely luck is a significant factor.

Kaline dwarfs Rose in every advanced batting stat, he’s a better base runner, and he’s elite defense (only Clemente exceeds him) while Pete is average in the OF and below average at his three IF positions.

Still...ALL TIME HIT KING!! Pete is the greatest compiler ever. Without question.
 
Long Ball Larry said:
Kaline is so obviously a better all-around player than Rose.

And I'm not even saying that to curry favor with Bobby anymore
Click to expand...
Maybe I've missed the boat on Kaline. Studied a ton of baseball as a kid and tried to learn the greats. Kaline never even popped on my radar (whereas Rose, Carew, Alexander, Grove, etc. did). 

 
Zow said:
Maybe I've missed the boat on Kaline. Studied a ton of baseball as a kid and tried to learn the greats. Kaline never even popped on my radar (whereas Rose, Carew, Alexander, Grove, etc. did). 
Click to expand...
Kaline was definitely kind of unheralded because his teams never quite got over the hump and he didn't have the sexiest numbers.  But from reading about him in the past, I always got the impression that he was really a great all-around player and also one of his big claims was how good he was at such a young age.  I'm not exactly sure what happened, but you would have thought that he would have been destined for greater numbers.  Maybe that park took away a lot of homers?  First-ballot hall-of-famer, I believe. 

 
BEST INFIELDER:

I looked at MVPs, WAR, Gold Gloves, Career OPS+, Peak performance, and four stats from baseball-reference: Black Ink (how many times led the league in something), Grey Ink (how many times in the top 10 in something), HOF Standards (an all encompassing look at stats and assessing points for accumulation), HOF Monitor (similar to HOF standards with a different point system. I didn’t use any points system, but looked at all these things to rank these guys. I didn’t look at All-Star games nor World Series titles or wins. 

16. (1 point) - Ozzie Smith. Love the Wizard, and he is certainly in any conversation for best fielder ever, and did it at the hardest position. The problem is he is a complete non-factor offensively. Never led the league in anything besides sacrifice hits and plate appearances, career average of just .262, and a career OPS+ of 87, only breaking 100 four times in his career. 

15. (2 points) - Roberto Alomar. The spitting incident mars his career a bit, but he’s still got an argument as the best 2nd basemen of the modern era. Fell short of 3,000 hits and never led the league in anything other than runs scored. I was willing to consider Ozzie as 15 instead of 16 because of his fielding, but Alomar is right there with him with 10 gold gloves, and was far superior offensively. 

14. (3 points) - Ernie Banks. Had one hell of a peak, winning two MVPs, and was the standard for power hitting second basemen for a long while. What surprised me was how low his career WAR is - lower than Smith and Alomar, and just over half of a couple of the guys on this list. He was the face of the franchise for a long time, but pretty much all these guys were at this point. 

13. (4 points) - Brooks Robinson. Not the offensive force the Banks was, but he gets the nod ahead of him thanks to his incredible defense. Brooks won a staggering 16 gold gloves, the most ever for a position player and behind only Greg Maddux for most all time. I didn’t know this before looking into these rankings, but Brooks finished in the top 5 in MVP voting five times in his career. He had a really strong peak, and played almost every game leading the league in games played five times.

12. (5 points) - Derek Jeter. #### the Yankees.

11. (6 points) - Chipper Jones. Chipper had a very nice career and was a truly excellent player, but he’s hurt because of his lack of league leading stats. He has one batting title and won the OBP title the same year, and had another year with the league leading OPS, but that’s it. It’s hard to find any real criticisms of him, but everyone else is a real monster. 

10. (7 points) - George Brett. Hard to believe Brett couldn’t crack the Top 10, but here we are. The man ticks every box: 3,000 hits, 300 homers, 1,500 RBI, a gold glove and an MVP. This is where ranking started to get really, really hard. So why Brett here? Simple enough - he only had one MVP. It’s not much of a criticism, but everyone else left either has multiple MVPs or played before the MVP was given out. Sorry George, please don’t come flying out of the dugout to yell at me. 

9. (8 points) - Joe Morgan. A truly horrendous announcer and baseball mind who inspired one of my favorite websites of all time (firejoemorgan.com), Morgan could do it all with speed and power, finishing his career with two MVPs and five gold gloves to go along with his 2,500 hits, 268 homers, and 689 stolen bases - which is still 11th most of all-time. One of the more confusing things about Morgan’s staunch refusal to embrace sabermetrics or any kind of advanced thinking is that he led the league in walks four times and OBP four times (not the same four years) - staple stats in the advanced metrics world. 

8. (9 points) - Cal Ripken Jr. Best known for his streak of 2,625 games played in a row, Ripken also revolutionized the shortstop position. He proved you didn’t have to be small, or quick, or wirey to play shortstop, and you also didn’t have to be a slap hitter. Despite being 6-4, Ripken was one of the best to play the position in his time with two gold gloves while accumulating 3,184 hits and 431 home runs, winning two MVPs, and a rookie of the year. You can argue he should have ended the streak earlier, as his offense did struggle in his later years, but you can’t deny the iconic moment of him running around Camden Yards, high fiving fans. Bonus points given since I was at the game where he collected his 3,000th hit!

7. (10 points) - Nap Lajoie. Always tough to rank the super old guys against more modern players, but Nap has some insane numbers. Career batting average of .338, including .426 in 1901, over 3,000 hits, and five batting titles. In 1903 Cleveland changed their team name from the Bronchos (whatever that is) to the Naps in his honor. He would also go on to be player/manager for the team. Legend. 

6. (11 points) - Jimmie Foxx. Foxx won 3 MVPs: 1932, 1933, and 1938. Babe Ruth was still around for those first two, so that makes those even more impressive. The modern power boost has pushed his career rank to 19th in homers, but his 534 was a monster number for a long time, and his 58 in 1932 was second most of all-time right up until 1961. No gold gloves back then, but Foxx also led the league in assists by a first baseman three times, and in least errors once. 

5. (12 points) - Mike Schmidt.  I was just barely too young, and too American League centric, to truly appreciate this guy.  3 MVP awards, 10 gold gloves, nearly 550 career home runs (leading the NL ten times), and a career OBP of .380? Truly an all around great. He could easily be number three instead of four, but the stats are just barely in the next guy’s favor. Toughest ranking was choosing between these two. 

4. (13 points) - Alex Rodriguez.  Obviously I didn’t penalize him for the Roids and the lying and dating weird people. On another day I might have, but I chose to look mostly just at the numbers and such for baseball, since it is such a 1-on-1 game, in a way I didn’t for basketball. He beats out Schmidt in career hits, home runs, RBI, Runs, WAR, Stolen Bases, Batting Average, Slugging, and OPS. He is tied with him in OBP and trails him in OPS+. Schmidt’s 10 gold gloves to A-Rod’s 2 weren’t enough to overcome some of these offensive (and offensive) differences. If you were really looking to ding A-Rod you might bring up that tired narrative that he failed in the postseason, and yes, he had some truly stinker playoff series, but he also had some amazing ones. We just tend to remember the bad ones, because it’s easy to root against him - he’s generally loathsome (although reinventing himself on TV now). But he’s also the fourth best infielder on this list. 

3. (14 points) - Lou Gehrig. Now we get to the cream of the crop, and it’s not some kind of anti-recency bias at play, it’s just the dominators or old dominated in a way we very rarely see in more modern times. Now quick, when I ask you the best baseball team of all-time, how far do you have to get to get to the 1927 Yankees? Not too far I’d bet. They’re a team of legend, led by Gehrig and of course, the MVP that year, Babe Ruth.  Wait. What? Yeah, Gehrig won the MVP that year. He hit .373/.474/.765, led the league with 447 total bases and 173 RBI. Monster year, in a monster career. Oh, and he would top those 173 RBI four years later with 185. I know, I know - RBI are in large part a function of the team’s ability and the situations the player finds himself in. Well Lou took advantage. Two MVPs, six other top 5 MVP finishes, a triple crown in 1934, and one hell of a famous quote. It was harder to keep him out of the 2nd spot than it was to consider dropping him to four. 

2. (15 points) - Honus Wagner. The legendary card. The T206. Only 57 copies are known to exist. Somewhere less than 200 made - either because they were distributed by a tobacco company and Honus didn’t improve, or more likely he wanted more money. The card has sold for $2.8 million in 2007, $1.2 million in 2012 (poor quality), $3.1 million in 2016, and $1.2 million in 2019 (also poor quality). It would be nice to have one. He also retired with 3,400 hits, which still ranks 8th all-time, 252 triples (3rd all-time), 643 doubles (10th all-time), won 8 batting titles, led the league in OPS 8 times, and is still ranked 10th all-time in WAR. The man simply dominated and his stats still are amongst the best of all-time. Elected to the very first HOF class in 1936.I know it’s tough to really know how good we would be today, but obviously I’m not using that as my criteria. That’s ok, because it’s my list. 

1.(16 points) - Rogers Hornsby. An absolute legend with a great career and an amazing prime. From 1924-1929 he hit .378/.365/.635, an OPS+ of 185.  That’s over six years! During that time he won 2 MVPs, added a runner up and a 3rd place, while hitting over .400 twice, winning three batting titles, and leading the league in OPS five of those six years. Not to mention winning a triple crown in 1925.  His second triple crown. Yes, his first came in 1922, which would be considered not in his prime. He won a triple crown before he hit his prime. Hit .380 or better 7 times. Ranks second all time in batting average, 8th in on-base, 10th in slugging, and 7th in OPS which adds up to 12th all time in WAR. The man was a beast, and I don’t think you’ll find much argument for him as #1.

 
Standings After Dungeon Master ranked MLN IF's - 

 

--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL

1 --Ilov80s--409--3--4--1=8

2 --tuffnutt--391--4--1--6=11

3 --Gally--391--3--1--3=7

4 --Zow--386--3--3--5=11

5 --DougB--384--5--2--2=9

6 --AAABatteries--384--3--3--4=10

7 --joffer--371--5--3--1=9 (gold)

8 --Getzlaf15--364--1--5--3=9

9 --otb_lifer--361--0--2--3=5 (bronze)

10 -Long Ball Larry--351--2--2--3=7

11 -timschochet--337--2--2--3=7

12 -jwb--332--2--4--2=8

13 -wikkidpissah--328--2--1--4=7

14 -Jagov--326--2--6--0=8 (silver)

15 -higgins--312--1--1--2=4

16 -Kal El--285--4--2--0=6

 
Here's what I have for the Judging List left

 

Major League Baseball

9. Greatest baseball moment or game hagmania.    @hagmania

NBA 

15. Greatest NBA moment or game hagmania

NFL

19. Greatest Tight End Getzlaf 

22. Greatest linebacker   @otb_lifer

23. Greatest secondary player   higgins

25. Greatest Team ILov80s

26. Greatest NFL moment or game hagmania

27. Greatest Super Bowl Getzlaf 

College Football

28. Greatest offensive player Getzlaf 

30. Greatest coach   @otb_lifer

31. Greatest team Getzlaf 

NHL 

35. Greatest offensive player Getz

38. Greatest team Getz 

Other sports (men’s) 

43. Greatest soccer player (non goalie) .   @zazale

49. Greatest soccer team . @zazale

50. Greatest soccer goalie . @zazale

Women’s sports 

53. Greatest basketball player   - OPEN

And:

60. All around greatest athlete of all time Zow 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
BobbyLayne said:
Kaline v Rose

Pete Rose
1963-1976 CIN (Yr 1-Yr 14 / age 22 to age 35)
G 2184 PA 10001 AB 8886 R 1459 H 2762  
2b 483 3B 101 HR 134 RBI 838    
SB 106 CS 96 BB 957 K 827     

Al Kaline
1954-1967 DET (Yr 2-Yr 15 / age 19 to age 32)
G 1963 PA 8313 AB 7287 R 1200 H 2221
2b 372 3B 64 HR 303 RBI 1193    
SB 116 CS 48 BB 886 K 673     

Rose dominates virtually every counting stat. Kaline played 7 (or 1/2) these seasons on 154 game schedules, had three serious injuries (broken ankle, dislocated shoulder, broken hand) that caused him to miss significant time on the DL.

Pete’s durability is AMAZING. If we look at other artificial endpoints: 1969-1982, he missed 16 games in 14 seasons, 1972-81, 5 G in 10 years, 1970-76, 7 G in 7.

Besides power hitting hitting, the only edge for Kaline appears to be base running, BB rate and K rate.

Pete Rose   
AVG .311 OBP .381 SLG .433 OPS .814   
OPS+ 127 TB 3849     
GDP 145 HBP 68 SH 35 SF 40 IBB 111

Al Kaline     
AVG .305 OBP .380 SLG .498 OPS .878 
OPS+ 138 TB 3630 
GDP 190 HBP 36 SH 38 SF 66 IBB 97

Close on average, OBP virtually the same, Kaline way better at hitting HR so of course SLG OPS..

Pete Rose   
MVP, WS MVP, 3 Batting Titles, 2 Gold Gloves, 5 postseasons, 4 Pennants, 3 WSC (WS 23 G 0.65 WPA)

Al Kaline   
1 Batting Title, 10 Gold Gloves, 1 Pennant, 1 WSC (2-8-.379-.480-.655 7 G 0.48 WPA)

Except for the GG it’s Rose all the way on hardware.

The Win Probability Added for the WS is interesting. That’s a culminated #; Rose outperformed Bench/Perez/Morgan. 0.65 WPA/23 G = 0.0282/G in his Reds career.

For 34 G WS career it’s 0.72 or 0.0209/G. For all 67 postseason games, WPA 2.64 or 0.0394 /G.

The time period considerEd doesn’t account for the ‘72 ALCS, Kaline’s only other postseason. His WPA in 5 G was 0.35, giving him 0.83 in 12 G (0.0691 /G.)

Are your eyes glazed over yet? One more.

Pete Rose   
Rbat 334
Rbaser 20
Rfield 18
WAR 71.5
oWAR 67.8 
dWAR -0.3

Al Kaline   
Rbat 381
Rbaser 35
Rfield 149
WAR 76.3
oWAR 61.8 
dWAR 7.7

Commence the eye rolling.

:lmao:    
   
Quick & dirty explain:

Rbat - how much better than avg batting?
Rbaser - how much better than avg base running?
Rfield - how much better than average fielding?
WAR - wins above replacement (all aspects) 
oWAR - wins above replacement offensively 
dWAR - wins above replacement defensively 

Kaline is more valuable per advanced SABR stats in batting, base running, overall, and fielding. Sample size matters, but he was clutch in both postseasons and both tight pennant races (‘67 & ‘72.)

Rose is better offensive WAR (all aspects) because the way the formula works; basically, if you do the same in 750 PA as another player does in 600 PA, your WAR will be significantly higher. That makes sense - the longer you excel, the greater the sample, the less likely luck is a significant factor.

Kaline dwarfs Rose in every advanced batting stat, he’s a better base runner, and he’s elite defense (only Clemente exceeds him) while Pete is average in the OF and below average at his three IF positions.

Still...ALL TIME HIT KING!! Pete is the greatest compiler ever. Without question.
Click to expand...
Charlie Hustle was surprisingly bad a stealing bases. 

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Zow said:
Maybe I've missed the boat on Kaline. Studied a ton of baseball as a kid and tried to learn the greats. Kaline never even popped on my radar (whereas Rose, Carew, Alexander, Grove, etc. did). 
Click to expand...
Kaline was definitely kind of unheralded because his teams never quite got over the hump and he didn't have the sexiest numbers.  But from reading about him in the past, I always got the impression that he was really a great all-around player and also one of his big claims was how good he was at such a young age.  I'm not exactly sure what happened, but you would have thought that he would have been destined for greater numbers.  Maybe that park took away a lot of homers?  First-ballot hall-of-famer, I believe. 
Click to expand...
@Zow - did you have The Baseball Encyclopedia (MacMillen)? 3,000 pages, weighed about 8 pounds. I had the first three editions (1969, 1974, 1978.) All three fell apart at the binding because I read them so much.

@Long Ball Larry - Tiger Stadium was a hitter’s paradise. 340-365-440-370-325 with an upper deck overhang of 10’-12’ (high fly balls to RF would sometimes bounce off the facade for a HR.) The stands canted inward at the edge of the infield and met the foul line in left field and stopped 2-3’ short of it in RF. Not too many at bats lost to fouling out. Both bullpens were adjacent to the outfields so the pitchers warmed up with their backs to the hitters (usually a player or ball boy stood there so they didn’t get hit.)

more boring pedantic Mr Tiger stuff...

Kaline was a bonus baby; under the rules then, any player who got a bonus over $6K had to spend the first year on the MLB roster before going to the minors (two years if it was a really large bonus.) The Bonus Rule was in effect 1947 to 1965; there was no amateur draft. Worked out for Catfish Hunter, Harmon Killebrew, and Sandy Koufax, but guys like Tom Qualters were more common. Players usually hated bonus babies (Kaline was so good + humble it was different in Detroit.)

He was 4-time All State in Baltimore and won the MVP of the Hearst Newspaper ASG at the Polo Grounds when he was 16; inside the park HR and at least 5 great defensive plays. Hit .609 in Legion Ball the next summer, .469 and .488 last two years of h.s. The Cardinals, Dodgers, and Phillies wanted him, but the Tigers scout showed up at his house with a contract the day after he graduated.

Kaline got $41,000, which was the largest at the time: $20K bonus, three year contract for 6K, 6K, and 9K. But initially the plan was to let him sit and learn for two years before sending him down to the minors. 30 G (mostly defensive replacement) in 1953, became a regular year two (.276), won the batting title (.340) when he was 20 - youngest ever. He got bumped up to $20K for 1956.

Around that time he started an auto parts manufacturer with Gordie Howe, which was very successful for 5-6 years. He got out when they diversified into race horses. lol the dude was basically George Washington/Abe Lincoln around the Motor City.

Started winning Gold Gloves in 1957 but he was already an outstanding RF from the jump. Once he bulked up he had a little power (.480 career SLG) but he never had monster production years. Just great glove, big arm, solid #3 hitter who seldom struck out, good speed. Knee injuries slowed him down and the Tigers has 3 good young OF so he would platoon with Northrup (RF) or Cash starting around 1968. Last year, strictly DH to get to 3K hits. That September our teacher wrote his hit total on the blackboard every day, he finally got 3,000 with a double off Dave McNally on September 24.

Lost about 600 games to injuries from running into a wall, running over a teammate, broken hand from destroying the bat rack after striking out, broken arm from an inside pitch, twisted knees. Not exactly Griffey or Mantle, he came back each time to be productive. NBD - maybe he ends up 3300 H 600 2B 480 HR 1900 R - 1900 RBI if he manages to be as durable as Rose or Yaz. Still a first ballot HoF (10th one) with 88.2% of the vote.

I went to Al Kaline day in August, 1970, for my 8th birthday present. They named the street outside the stadium Kaline Drive that day. Imagine it - for the last 4-1/2 years he we played, he drove down a street named after him.

I’ve talked to so many who met him or played in a charity golf tournament with him. As nice as Arnold Palmer, always generous with his time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BobbyLayne said:
@Zow - did you have The Baseball Encyclopedia (MacMillen)? 3,000 pages, weighed about 8 pounds. I had the first three editions (1969, 1974, 1978.) All three fell apart at the binding because I read them so much.

more boring pedantic Mr Tiger stuff...

Kaline was a bonus baby; under the rules then, any player who got a bonus over $6K had to spend the first year on the MLB roster before going to the minors (two years if it was a really large bonus.) The Bonus Rule was in effect 1947 to 1965; there was no amateur draft. Worked out for Catfish Hunter, Harmon Killebrew, and Sandy Koufax, but guys like Tom Qualters were more common. Players usually hated bonus babies (Kaline was so good + humble it was different in Detroit.)

He was 4-time All State in Baltimore and won the MVP of the Hearst Newspaper ASG at the Polo Grounds when he was 16; inside the park HR and at least 5 great defensive plays. Hit .609 in Legion Ball the next summer, .469 and .488 last two years of h.s. The Cardinals, Dodgers, and Phillies wanted him, but the Tigers scout showed up at his house with a contract the day after he graduated.

Kaline got $41,000, which was the largest at the time: $20K bonus, three year contract for 6K, 6K, and 9K. But initially the plan was to let him sit and learn for two years before sending him down to the minors. 30 G (mostly defensive replacement) in 1953, became a regular year two (.276), won the batting title (.340) when he was 20 - youngest ever. He got bumped up to $20K for 1956.

Around that time he started an auto parts manufacturer with Gordie Howe, which was very successful for 5-6 years. He got out when they diversified into race horses. lol the dude was basically George Washington/Abe Lincoln around the Motor City.

Started winning Gold Gloves in 1957 but he was already an outstanding RF from the jump. Once he bulked up he had a little power (.480 career SLG) but he never had monster production years. Just great glove, big arm, solid #3 hitter who seldom struck out, good speed. Knee injuries slowed him down and the Tigers has 3 good young OF so he would platoon with Northrup (RF) or Cash starting around 1968. Last year, strictly DH to get to 3K hits. That September our teacher wrote his hit total on the blackboard every day, he finally got 3,000 with a double off Dave McNally on September 24.

Lost about 600 games to injuries from running into a wall, running over a teammate, broken hand from destroying the bat rack after striking out, broken arm from an inside pitch, twisted knees. Not exactly Griffey or Mantle, he came back each time to be productive. NBD - maybe he ends up 3300 H 600 2B 480 HR 1900 R - 1900 RBI if he manages to be as durable as Rose or Yaz. Still a first ballot HoF (10th one) with 88.2% of the vote.

I went to Al Kaline day in August, 1970, for my 8th birthday present. They named the street outside the stadium Kaline Drive that day. Imagine it - for the last 4-1/2 years he we played, he drove down a street named after him.

I’ve talked to so many who met him or played in a charity golf tournament with him. As nice as Arnold Palmer, always generous with his time.
Click to expand...
Used to buy on every few years. Then I got the Bill James Baseball extract and when I needed a nerd fix I just re-read that, but the encyclopedia was always close at hand. 

 
happily shocked by Hornsby’s gold Medal.  I probably would of have had him 3rd myself, behind Gehrig and Wagner, but it makes up for the fact that

THERES NO WAY TIM DUNCAN IS A BETTER CENTER THAN HAKEEM OLAJUWON

sorry, that’s the Bourbon talking.

 
BobbyLayne said:
@Zow - did you have The Baseball Encyclopedia (MacMillen)? 3,000 pages, weighed about 8 pounds. I had the first three editions (1969, 1974, 1978.) All three fell apart at the binding because I read them so much.

@Long Ball Larry - Tiger Stadium was a hitter’s paradise. 340-365-440-370-325 with an upper deck overhang of 10’-12’ (high fly balls to RF would sometimes bounce off the facade for a HR.) The stands canted inward at the edge of the infield and met the foul line in left field and stopped 2-3’ short of it in RF. Not too many at bats lost to fouling out. Both bullpens were adjacent to the outfields so the pitchers warmed up with their backs to the hitters (usually a player or ball boy stood there so they didn’t get hit.)

more boring pedantic Mr Tiger stuff...

Kaline was a bonus baby; under the rules then, any player who got a bonus over $6K had to spend the first year on the MLB roster before going to the minors (two years if it was a really large bonus.) The Bonus Rule was in effect 1947 to 1965; there was no amateur draft. Worked out for Catfish Hunter, Harmon Killebrew, and Sandy Koufax, but guys like Tom Qualters were more common. Players usually hated bonus babies (Kaline was so good + humble it was different in Detroit.)

He was 4-time All State in Baltimore and won the MVP of the Hearst Newspaper ASG at the Polo Grounds when he was 16; inside the park HR and at least 5 great defensive plays. Hit .609 in Legion Ball the next summer, .469 and .488 last two years of h.s. The Cardinals, Dodgers, and Phillies wanted him, but the Tigers scout showed up at his house with a contract the day after he graduated.

Kaline got $41,000, which was the largest at the time: $20K bonus, three year contract for 6K, 6K, and 9K. But initially the plan was to let him sit and learn for two years before sending him down to the minors. 30 G (mostly defensive replacement) in 1953, became a regular year two (.276), won the batting title (.340) when he was 20 - youngest ever. He got bumped up to $20K for 1956.

Around that time he started an auto parts manufacturer with Gordie Howe, which was very successful for 5-6 years. He got out when they diversified into race horses. lol the dude was basically George Washington/Abe Lincoln around the Motor City.

Started winning Gold Gloves in 1957 but he was already an outstanding RF from the jump. Once he bulked up he had a little power (.480 career SLG) but he never had monster production years. Just great glove, big arm, solid #3 hitter who seldom struck out, good speed. Knee injuries slowed him down and the Tigers has 3 good young OF so he would platoon with Northrup (RF) or Cash starting around 1968. Last year, strictly DH to get to 3K hits. That September our teacher wrote his hit total on the blackboard every day, he finally got 3,000 with a double off Dave McNally on September 24.

Lost about 600 games to injuries from running into a wall, running over a teammate, broken hand from destroying the bat rack after striking out, broken arm from an inside pitch, twisted knees. Not exactly Griffey or Mantle, he came back each time to be productive. NBD - maybe he ends up 3300 H 600 2B 480 HR 1900 R - 1900 RBI if he manages to be as durable as Rose or Yaz. Still a first ballot HoF (10th one) with 88.2% of the vote.

I went to Al Kaline day in August, 1970, for my 8th birthday present. They named the street outside the stadium Kaline Drive that day. Imagine it - for the last 4-1/2 years he we played, he drove down a street named after him.

I’ve talked to so many who met him or played in a charity golf tournament with him. As nice as Arnold Palmer, always generous with his time.
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Had one I think. But the internet was a thing when I hit 12 or so. Baseball was my life in high school so just spent time on the net reading about it. 

 
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Zow said:
Had one I think. But the internet was a thing when I hit 12 or so. Baseball was my life in high school so just spent time on the net reading about it. 
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Last one was published in 1996. The year I passed the then 5-part CPA exam on my first try (late bloomer, went back to Uni when I was 30.) We were still on dialup and AOL was the rage.

Great job on Infielders @Dungeon Master

 
Anyone of a mood to take Defensive Backs from me? Just not phyllin it and i got some complicators keeping me from concentrating on that kinda stuff right now

 
Greatest NFL Moment or Game (cont.)

Next two are interchangeable really.

6 points - The Buffalo Bills storm back to beat the Houston Oilers in "The Comeback"

  • What makes it great:

    The comeback was five unanswered touchdowns...
  • ...that didn't even start 'til midway through the 3rd Quarter!

    Buffalo's first possession of the second half ended in a Houston pick-six

[*]Nobody circles the wagons like... Frank Reich?

  • Reich started in place of the injured Jim Kelly
  • He had been part of another crazy comeback in college, when Maryland overcame a 31-point deficit against Miami

[*]Overtime!

  • Even with the comeback, Houston managed to send it to an extra period
  • Steve Christie knocked it through after regulation. Final Score: Buffalo 41 - Houston 38


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • Another crazy comeback happened just this past postseason that takes just a biiiiiiit of the luster off this game

    Unlike Buffalo, Kansas City actually turned their big comeback into a Super Bowl Victory later in the playoffs

    Dallas trounced Buffalo by 35 in SB XXVII

    Still, notice that this game is appropriately noted for its greatness, as it is the largest comeback in NFL history



[*]We don't have to even mention 28-3...

  • Please, let's not, for @AAABatteries sake

    Wow, what a choke job

    Yeesh, 28-3 huh

    That's, like, unthinkable

    Damn, that sucks

    28-3... wow.







7 points - The Music City Miracle

  • What makes it great:

    That never works


    With less than 20 seconds left, Lorenzo Neal hands a short kickoff to Frank Wycheck, who summarily sprints to the hash mark and heaves it all the way across the field...

[*]Until it does

  • ... right into the waiting arms of Kevin Dyson who screams down the sideline of the Titans' brand new Coliseum into the endzone

[*]This wins the 1-point coinflip because of the excitement of the play.

  • It is a perfect reminder that every play is consequential and nothing in a game is decided until the whistle is blown


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • One Yard Short

    Much like "The Comeback," this miracle lacks the ultimate fairytale ending

[*]The Miracle's legality has healthy doubt attached to it

  • Wycheck to Dyson looks very much "forward pass"
  • Doesn't matter, Touchdooooooown Titans!


 
Uruk-Hai said:
Don't forget: how many winning teams did they beat  :D
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I will have some level of quality of competition in there- not sure how I’ll do it. For example, I think some of the recent NE teams haven’t been nearly as good as the end results have been. New England has started so many seasons with a hitter friendly 2-0 count just based off of how bad their division has been. 

 
Ilov80s said:
I will have some level of quality of competition in there- not sure how I’ll do it. For example, I think some of the recent NE teams haven’t been nearly as good as the end results have been. New England has started so many seasons with a hitter friendly 2-0 count just based off of how bad their division has been. 
Click to expand...
I was just funnin' Woz. Use whatever criteria seems best to you.

 
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Reactions: Zow
Greatest NFL Moment or Game (cont.)

From this point forward, judging goes from ####### impossible to I quit.

8 points - 4th Quarter of Super Bowl XLIX

  • What makes it great:

    The league's two best teams played each other down to the wire
  • Had the Seahawks converted, it would have been back-to-back incredibly engineered touchdown drives in the clutch

    Had the Seahawks converted, Jermaine Kearse's uncanny feat of hand-eye-ankle-shoulder-butt coordination could have been drafted on its own

[*]Armchair controversy!

  • Pete Carroll's decision to throw it at the goal line was hot-take fuel through Q2 of 2015


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • C'mon, it's the Patriots

    Had the Seahawks converted, this flirts very closely with top 5 material

[*]Game recognize game, here... maybe I could give this another point...

  • But this next game was awesome the whole way through

    Seems to be a reason only the 4th Quarter was drafted



9 points - The Epic in Miami

  • What makes it great:

    I knew there was a "Kellen Winslow Game" but criminy

    Dude did it all, basically outlasted the Dolphins, willing the Chargers to victory
  • Led receiving yards, caught touchdowns, BLOCKED THE POTENTIAL GAME-WINNING KICK

[*]The sum of its parts

  • This was more than just the Kellen Winslow game, it really was an epic
  • I actually watched this game the whole way through and had NO IDEA all the twists and turns
  • The impending blowout! The replacement QB! The HOOK AND LADDER oh my! It went to overtime!
  • Even with the knock I gave against Buffalo and Tennessee, this whole game is incredible and rises above the Chargers' later shortcomings


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • Yep, you guessed it

    After sweating it out in Miami, San Diego lost to Cincinnati in a frigid affair the next round
  • Still though, what a crazy awesome game


 
hagmania said:
Greatest NFL Moment or Game (cont.)

9 points - The Epic in Miami

  • What makes it great:

    I knew there was a "Kellen Winslow Game" but criminy

    Dude did it all, basically outlasted the Dolphins, willing the Chargers to victory
  • Led receiving yards, caught touchdowns, BLOCKED THE POTENTIAL GAME-WINNING KICK

[*]The sum of its parts

  • This was more than just the Kellen Winslow game, it really was an epic
  • I actually watched this game the whole way through and had NO IDEA all the twists and turns
  • The impending blowout! The replacement QB! The HOOK AND LADDER oh my! It went to overtime!
  • Even with the knock I gave against Buffalo and Tennessee, this whole game is incredible and rises above the Chargers' later shortcomings


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • Yep, you guessed it

    After sweating it out in Miami, San Diego lost to Cincinnati in a frigid affair the next round
  • Still though, what a crazy awesome game
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I was playing poker with my friends in a house I rented from my family when this game happened. We were (or, thought we were) really hardcore players who wouldn't stop for a nuclear war. But so much crazy #### kept happening in the game, we stopped and watched the game. I don't know that I've ever seen so many crazy game-changing plays in a football game.

Oddly enough, in the same house around 10 years later (after the house was remodeled and a couple of relocations on my part) I was back in the same house playing poker with the same guys when the Duke/UK Elite 8 game was happening. Same thing - shut the poker game down to watch an incredible game. 

 
hagmania said:
Greatest NFL Moment or Game (cont.)

From this point forward, judging goes from ####### impossible to I quit.

8 points - 4th Quarter of Super Bowl XLIX

  • What makes it great:

    The league's two best teams played each other down to the wire
  • Had the Seahawks converted, it would have been back-to-back incredibly engineered touchdown drives in the clutch

    Had the Seahawks converted, Jermaine Kearse's uncanny feat of hand-eye-ankle-shoulder-butt coordination could have been drafted on its own

[*]Armchair controversy!

  • Pete Carroll's decision to throw it at the goal line was hot-take fuel through Q2 of 2015


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • C'mon, it's the Patriots

    Had the Seahawks converted, this flirts very closely with top 5 material

[*]Game recognize game, here... maybe I could give this another point...

  • But this next game was awesome the whole way through

    Seems to be a reason only the 4th Quarter was drafted
Click to expand...
1. Harsh, but fair. 

2. Yeah it was already drafted as a whole game because it's the greatest super bowl ever. I suppose maybe I should have drafted it as, "the final 59 minutes." 

 
hagmania said:
Greatest NFL Moment or Game (cont.)

  • What makes it great:

    I knew there was a "Kellen Winslow Game" but criminy

    Dude did it all, basically outlasted the Dolphins, willing the Chargers to victory
  • Led receiving yards, caught touchdowns, BLOCKED THE POTENTIAL GAME-WINNING KICK

[*]The sum of its parts

  • This was more than just the Kellen Winslow game, it really was an epic
  • I actually watched this game the whole way through and had NO IDEA all the twists and turns
  • The impending blowout! The replacement QB! The HOOK AND LADDER oh my! It went to overtime!
  • Even with the knock I gave against Buffalo and Tennessee, this whole game is incredible and rises above the Chargers' later shortcomings


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • Yep, you guessed it

    After sweating it out in Miami, San Diego lost to Cincinnati in a frigid affair the next round
  • Still though, what a crazy awesome game
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you did justice to this one - it's exciting to read.

Your writeups are really fun.

 
hagmania said:
Greatest NFL Moment or Game (cont.)

From this point forward, judging goes from ####### impossible to I quit.
Click to expand...
I just finished going over all the Super Bowl picks.  It was so hard judging the Top 10 of them, and especially the Top 6.  I had to go over each one several times until I felt a morsel of comfort in the rankings.  This CAT took 4x as long to go over than the other ones I've done.  I'm so glad I randomly write the picks down. Whomever gets #6 isn't going to be happy.

 
hagmania said:
Greatest NFL Moment or Game (cont.)

From this point forward, judging goes from ####### impossible to I quit.

8 points - 4th Quarter of Super Bowl XLIX

  • What makes it great:

    The league's two best teams played each other down to the wire
  • Had the Seahawks converted, it would have been back-to-back incredibly engineered touchdown drives in the clutch

    Had the Seahawks converted, Jermaine Kearse's uncanny feat of hand-eye-ankle-shoulder-butt coordination could have been drafted on its own

[*]Armchair controversy!

  • Pete Carroll's decision to throw it at the goal line was hot-take fuel through Q2 of 2015


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • C'mon, it's the Patriots

    Had the Seahawks converted, this flirts very closely with top 5 material

[*]Game recognize game, here... maybe I could give this another point...

  • But this next game was awesome the whole way through

    Seems to be a reason only the 4th Quarter was drafted



9 points - The Epic in Miami

  • What makes it great:

    I knew there was a "Kellen Winslow Game" but criminy

    Dude did it all, basically outlasted the Dolphins, willing the Chargers to victory
  • Led receiving yards, caught touchdowns, BLOCKED THE POTENTIAL GAME-WINNING KICK

[*]The sum of its parts

  • This was more than just the Kellen Winslow game, it really was an epic
  • I actually watched this game the whole way through and had NO IDEA all the twists and turns
  • The impending blowout! The replacement QB! The HOOK AND LADDER oh my! It went to overtime!
  • Even with the knock I gave against Buffalo and Tennessee, this whole game is incredible and rises above the Chargers' later shortcomings


[*]Why it's not the greatest:

  • Yep, you guessed it

    After sweating it out in Miami, San Diego lost to Cincinnati in a frigid affair the next round
  • Still though, what a crazy awesome game
Click to expand...
I think the way you are recapping and your cases are the absolutely perfect way to judge a category like this.  It really is about your personal connection with the moments and you are capturing it.  Kudos to you.  Great job thus far (that can change quick depending on how these last 7 shake out...hahahah)

 
Dungeon Master said:
BEST INFIELDER:

14. (3 points) - Ernie Banks. Had one hell of a peak, winning two MVPs, and was the standard for power hitting second basemen for a long while. What surprised me was how low his career WAR is - lower than Smith and Alomar, and just over half of a couple of the guys on this list. He was the face of the franchise for a long time, but pretty much all these guys were at this point. 
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I thought about flip flopping Carew and Banks in their categories.  I wasn't sure which way would have maximized points.  Where do you think Carew would have fallen on the Infielder rankings had I used him as the infielder and Banks as Best Baseballer?

 
So like Gally mentioned above, a lot of this will be about my personal connection to the games.  I have watched every Super Bowl live except SB I, which was blacked out in the LA area where I grew up.  Starting in 1967, I've watched football just about every Sunday to this day.  It's always been a huge part of my weekends. I remember in about 1969, and for the next decade, picking every game each week versus my older brother and we bet a dime on every game that was different. We kept weekly and seasonal records.  I can vividly remember after each SB, the excitement I had for each game and that is part of my rankings here.  Ratings and Commercial info are listed here for entertainment purposes only. Didn't consider them in the rankings.

PTS: 1

Super Bowl XLI (41)

Date: Feb 4, 2007

Location: Miami

Final Score: Colts 29, Bears 17

Line: Colts by 7

Halftime Show: Prince and the Florida A&M University Marching 100

Cost of 30 second ad: $2.6mil

QB Stats: Manning 25-38-1 247 1td,  Grossman 20-28-2. 165yd 1td

Other Notable Stats: D.Rhodes IND 21-113 1td, Addai 19-77 and 10-66, T.Jones CHI 15-112

Big Plays: Devin Hester ran opening kickoff back 92 yards. R.Wayne 53 yd TD catch.

Game Summary:
Full Game

First quarter

The Bears won the coin toss and elected to receive. For the first time in Super Bowl history, the game was played in the rain, which was continuous throughout the game.

The rain did not hinder Bears' return man Devin Hester, who ran back the opening kickoff 92 yards for a touchdown to give Chicago the then earliest lead in Super Bowl history, after only 14 seconds. The Colts avoided kicking to Hester for the rest of the game, allowing him only one punt return, and choosing to squib kick whenever Hester was in the deep kickoff return position.

On Indianapolis' first drive of the game, defensive back Chris Harris intercepted a deep, third-down pass from quarterback Peyton Manning and returned it 6 yards to the Bears' 35-yard line. However, Chicago could not gain a first down on their ensuing possession and they were forced to punt. After several short runs and passes, Manning beat the Bears' defense with a 53-yard touchdown pass to wide receiver Reggie Wayne, cutting the Bears' lead to 7–6. The touchdown occurred because of a mental error on the Bears' secondary. Cornerback Charles Tillman passed Reggie Wayne onto safety Danieal Manning. However, Manning chose to follow tight end Ben Utecht over the middle, leaving Wayne all alone. The score remained the same, at 7–6, after punter/holder Hunter Smith fumbled the snap on the point-after-touchdown (PAT) attempt. On the ensuing kickoff, Chicago tight end Gabe Reid fumbled Adam Vinatieri's bouncing kickoff while being tackled by Robert Mathis; Colts linebacker Tyjuan Hagler recovered the loose ball. However, on the next play, Indianapolis gave the ball back when running back Joseph Addai fumbled the hand-off and Bears defensive end Mark Anderson recovered it.

On the first play after the turnover, Thomas Jones's 52-yard run moved the ball to the Colts' 5-yard line. Three plays later, Rex Grossman threw a 4-yard touchdown pass to receiver Muhsin Muhammad, giving the Bears a 14–6 lead. After forcing an Indianapolis punt, Chicago lost another turnover when Cedric Benson's fumble was recovered by Colts defensive end Dwight Freeney on the Bears' 43-yard line. Indianapolis subsequently advanced to the 36-yard line, but decided to punt rather than risk a 53-yard field goal attempt.

Second quarter

Following a Chicago punt, Indianapolis drove 47 yards and scored with Vinatieri's 29-yard field goal to make the score 14–9. Chicago was forced to punt again on their next drive, and return man Terrence Wilkins returned the ball 12 yards to his own 42-yard line. Manning started out the drive with a 22-yard completion to Marvin Harrison. His next pass went to tight end Dallas Clark for 17 yards. Two more completions moved the ball to the Bears' 11-yard line, and then Dominic Rhodes took the ball to the end zone with three consecutive carries, the last one a 1-yard touchdown run to give his team a 16–14 lead with 6:09 left in the second quarter.

After another Chicago punt, the Colts advanced to the Bears' 36-yard line before Tillman ended the drive by forcing and recovering a fumble from tight end Bryan Fletcher. But on the next play, Grossman fumbled a snap, and Colts defensive lineman Raheem Brock recovered the ball. Manning then led the Colts to Chicago's 17-yard line. With two seconds left, Vinatieri attempted a 36-yard field goal, but his kick sailed wide left, and the score remained 16–14 at halftime.
 

Third quarter

Wilkins returned the second half kickoff 26 yards to the Colts's 38-yard line. On the ensuing possession, Addai rushed five times for 25 yards and caught four passes for 19 yards as the Colts drove 56 yards in 13 plays and scored with a 29-yard field goal from Vinatieri, increasing their lead to 19–14. On the Bears' next drive, Jones started out with a 14-yard run, and then Muhammad caught a 9-yard pass, bringing up second down and one on the Colts' 45-yard line. But on the next play, Grossman was sacked for an 11-yard loss by Anthony McFarland. Then, on third down, he fumbled the snap. Grossman recovered the fumble himself, but the Bears were forced to punt, and Wilkins returned the ball 12 yards to the Colts' 36-yard line. Rhodes then gained 52 yards on four carries, with a face-mask penalty adding another 10. Chicago managed to halt the drive at their own 2-yard line, but Vinatieri kicked his third field goal to make the score 22–14.

Chicago tight end John Gilmore picked up Vinatieri's bouncing kickoff and returned it 9-yards to his own 45-yard line, with an unnecessary roughness penalty on Mathis adding another 15 yards and giving the Bears a first down on the Colts' 40-yard line. Chicago could only gain 14 yards on their ensuing possession, but it was enough for Robbie Gould to make a 44-yard field goal, cutting the score to 22–17.

Fourth quarter

After an Indianapolis 7-play drive ended in a punt, Chicago started on their own 20-yard line with 13:38 left in the game. But four plays later, Colts defensive back Kelvin Hayden intercepted a pass intended for Muhammad and returned it 56 yards for a touchdown.

From that point on, the Colts took over the game. Four plays after the ensuing kickoff, Colts defensive back Bob Sanders intercepted Grossman's pass and returned it 38 yards to the Bears 41-yard line. Chicago's defense eventually forced a punt, but Smith's 32-yard kick pinned the Bears back at their own 8-yard line. The Bears drove to their own 47, but on a fourth down conversion attempt, tight end Desmond Clark dropped a potential first down reception after being leveled by defensive back Matt Giordano. The Colts subsequently called eight consecutive Dominic Rhodes runs before turning the ball over on downs themselves, leaving only 1:42 remaining in regulation. Five plays later, the game was over.

#1 and Top 5 Commercials link: Budweiser. Computer-generated crabs idolize a cooler filled with Bud.
https://vimeo.com/57453046

Interesting Story Lines:
1) This game featured two teams ending long Super Bowl appearance droughts. The Colts, who finished with a 12–4 regular season record, were making their first Super Bowl appearance since winning Super Bowl V in the 1970 season during the team's tenure in Baltimore; they had moved to Indianapolis in 1984. Meanwhile, the Bears, who posted an NFC-best 13–3 regular season record, were making their first appearance since winning Super Bowl XX in the 1985 season. In addition, the Bears' Lovie Smith and the Colts' Tony Dungy both became the first African-American head coaches to coach in the Super Bowl, with Dungy the first to win.

2) CBS' broadcast of the game was watched by an estimated average of 93.2 million viewers, making it at the time the fifth most watched program in U.S. television history.

3) The halftime show, headlined by the musician Prince, peaked at 140 million television viewers, and was widely acclaimed by music critics

4) Chicago defensive tackle Tank Johnson was required to request a judge's order to leave the state of Illinois due to an arrest for unlicensed ownership of six firearms and two assault rifles. On January 23, 2007, the judge granted him permission to travel out of state to play in the Super Bowl

5) Following the game, controversy emerged about a silhouetted camera shot of Prince, projected against a large sheet by a bright light on the other side of him. The controversy centered around his guitar, which detractors claimed seemed phallic, and critics stating that it "looked embarrassingly rude, crude and unfortunately placed". Though the guitar has been considered by some an extension of a male player's sexuality (especially highlighted by such artists as Jimi Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen, and even Prince himself), supporters of Prince say that the show did not, in fact, become any more sexually charged than usual, noting that "a guitar at waist level does look like an enormous phallus"

6) The NFL upset many fans by banning the traditional practice of tailgating at Super Bowl XLI. Originally, spokesmen for Dolphin Stadium announced that tailgating would be permitted as usual. However, the NFL quickly contradicted this statement, announcing an NFL owner-imposed ban on all tailgating and prohibiting non-ticketed fans within a two-block-radius of the stadium

7) The NFL upset a large number of fans by threatening churches with lawsuits if they had Super Bowl parties. National Football League assistant counsel Rachel L. Margolies sent a letter to the Fall Creek Baptist Church in Indianapolis, ordering the church to cancel its party and remove the trademarked Super Bowl name from its website.[52] She said that the church could not use the words "Super Bowl" as it violates trademark law, could not charge admission as that violates copyright law, could not use its projection screen (only one television could be used and it could not be over 55 inches), and could not "promote a message" in connection with the game. Regarding the last point, the Fall Creek Baptist church planned to also show an extra video to highlight the Christian testimonies of Colts coach Tony Dungy and Chicago Bears coach Lovie Smith. "While this may be a noble message", Rachel L. Margolies wrote, "we are consistent in refusing the use of our game broadcasts in connection with events that promote a message, no matter the content


My Comments:  For me, this was a pretty uneventful game after the opening Hester TD return.  It and the next two did not have exciting finishes.  The Ravens-49'ers game I think would have been a much better choice here and would not have finished last IMO.  I found five Internet ranking lists of SB's and this was the only game on the list of 16 that didn't make a Top 16.  I recall seeing it around 25-30 on two lists.  None of the top five commercials were memorable either...

 
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Getzlaf15 said:
So like Gally mentioned above, a lot of this will be about my personal connection to the games.  I have watched every Super Bowl live except SB I, which was blacked out in the LA area where I grew up.  Starting in 1967, I've watched football just about every Sunday to this day.  It's always been a huge part of my weekends. I remember in about 1969, and for the next decade, picking every game each week versus my older brother and we bet a dime on every game that was different. We kept weekly and seasonal records.  I can vividly remember after each SB, the excitement I had for each game and that is part of my rankings here.  Ratings and Commercial info are listed here for entertainment purposes only. Didn't consider them in the rankings.

PTS: 1

Super Bowl XLI (41)

Date: Feb 4, 2007

Final Score: Colts 29, Bears 17
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Would knowing it's the only Super Bowl I've attended move it up in the rankings?  ;)  

 
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