bostonfred
Footballguy
Kudos to the heat but that's a frustrating way to lose
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
2021-22 NBA Thread: Bill Simmons furiously recording 2.5 hour long pod about how Boston is still better than Golden State (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
- Status
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
Sweet
Frostillicus
Footballguy
This is pretty much true. Short of something elite they get played off the floor. Jokic, Embiid, and KAT are about it unless I'm drunkelnly missing someone which is totally possible. Gobert is an elite defensive player and his postseason issues are well documented.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Frostillicus
Footballguy
yourmom
Last edited by a moderator:
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
well, we finally had a game.... Butler stabbed us like a jailhouse shiv.
Jayrod
Footballguy
My goodness what a game by the heat. Jimmy Butler played as well as a man can play. Unbelievable. There were about five times I thought Boston was going to go on a run and finish the game and then Butler and Lowry and Strus just wouldn't die. Game seven it is. I'm a Boston fan, but that was an impressive win by the Heat.
Boston played decent even and White was huge, but Miami looked like they had no injuries and no fatigue for 48 minutes.
Boston played decent even and White was huge, but Miami looked like they had no injuries and no fatigue for 48 minutes.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
The replays are brutal.
LOL at these double masks.
LOL at these double masks.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
As great as Butler was tonight and in game 1, he was equally as ineffective for 2 straight games to put them in this hole.
I think Boston draws some confidence from games 6 and 7 of the Bucks series, get a few X & O's lined out and respond well on Sunday. Miami, of course, has a puncher's chance but they'll have to play great again, IMO.
I'd be shocked if Udoka let's them kick the ball around the gym again or let's Marcus Smart live down Jimmy torching them. He needs to make it real personal with Marcus that the DPOY let a guy get 47 vs him in a closeout game.
I think Boston draws some confidence from games 6 and 7 of the Bucks series, get a few X & O's lined out and respond well on Sunday. Miami, of course, has a puncher's chance but they'll have to play great again, IMO.
I'd be shocked if Udoka let's them kick the ball around the gym again or let's Marcus Smart live down Jimmy torching them. He needs to make it real personal with Marcus that the DPOY let a guy get 47 vs him in a closeout game.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Frostillicus
Footballguy
I have been a Jimmy Butler hater. I am no longer a Jimmy Butler hater. Rooting for him. What a ####### game.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I wad waiting to see if Miami was going to make the finals and ask if you were rooting for Butler or Wiggins.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
This Miami team... So much to love about it. Jimmy channels Lebron game 6 vibes from 2012, said D Wade sent him encouragement. Also, I think Miami took it personal when Draymond said "we are getting ready for the celtics"
Celts are a great team on both sides of the ball, but they can be a bit predictable. Spin move, etc.
As a Heat and Spolestra fan, I still don't understand how our defense, as good as it is, still cannot stop the old San Antonio baseline pin down corner 3 pointer. How many pass outs from under the rim to a wide open guy in the corner do I have to watch over the years...
Celts are a great team on both sides of the ball, but they can be a bit predictable. Spin move, etc.
As a Heat and Spolestra fan, I still don't understand how our defense, as good as it is, still cannot stop the old San Antonio baseline pin down corner 3 pointer. How many pass outs from under the rim to a wide open guy in the corner do I have to watch over the years...
Instinctive
Footballguy
Well here are the ten highest usage seasons. I would say Kobe, MJ, and Giannis all "learned" it, I guess? Do you remember those guys?
Code:
Rank Player Usg% Season
1. Russell Westbrook 41.65 2016-17
2. James Harden 40.47 2018-19
3. Kobe Bryant* 38.74 2005-06
4. Russell Westbrook 38.37 2014-15
5. Michael Jordan* 38.29 1986-87
6. Allen Iverson* 37.78 2001-02
7. Giannis Antetokounmpo 37.54 2019-20
8. Luka Dončić 37.39 2021-22
9. Joel Embiid 37.18 2021-22
10. Luka Dončić 36.77 2019-20STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Please dont besmirch Jimmy Butlers name like that. One guy is tough as nails and a true tough guy, the other flops around like a fish out water pretending to be hurt even when he wasn’t touched.
Last edited by a moderator:
That seems to be an argument that some isolation players have had success more so than they changed their styles. Which is a fair point - it’s certainly reasonable to think Luka will have similar results, he’s obviously an amazing player.
Instinctive
Footballguy
But all of them only had more success when they changed their styles. Look at the iso heavy seasons - without looking up a ton, the only one with a good teammate in that season was Harden with Paul. Even Westbrook, the most notorious usage guy ever, only had crazy high usage without Durant (the season on there early, Durant played like 25 games and was out the rest of the year).
Tau837
Footballguy
Are we still not supposed to talk about how bad the officiating is? I'm not a fan of either team, so I really don't have a dog in the fight... but the officiating just seems horrendous. I graduated from college in 1991, so I grew up on 1980s-1990s basketball. Obviously, the league was much more physical then, and I don't recall ever feeling that the officiating was as bad throughout that period as it is now.
Am I just not remembering? Or is it much harder to officiate a game made less physical by rule changes and officiating points of emphasis? Or is this generation of refs just much worse than previous generations?
Am I just not remembering? Or is it much harder to officiate a game made less physical by rule changes and officiating points of emphasis? Or is this generation of refs just much worse than previous generations?
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Oh, it's bad. It's really, really bad. I suspect that the officials just figure now that any bad call can get changed by replay, but that is lazy. Boston made a great strip with a little over a minute left, yet it gets called a foul, and since Boston had no challenges left, a review could not happen. I think the constant reviews have killed basketball anyway (I remember that Suns/Clippers game last year where the last 9 seconds of the game took almost 20 minutes of real time to finish
) , but the officiating is just dreadful now. The fact that officials still fall for the constant flopping is sad and pathetic.
Jayrod
Footballguy
We've discussed this before.
To say the officiating is somehow worse now would be completely illogical. They, like the players, coaches, trainers, GMs, etc., have worked to improve their craft over time and in many ways are better than the past.
The game is undeniably more difficult to officiate now than ever before. Also, a big part of the problem is simply our perception and not reality. Here is just a brainstorming list of reasons why we think it is worse:
- Player size and speed is greater now
- Players flop/embellish way more making it very hard to determine genuine reactions to faked.
- Players and coaches whine more, making officiating more of a focal point than before.
- 50 cameras with slow mo instant replay. When a ref does miss a call, we definitively know it because we can see it better than any human in real speed from one angle ever could, but hold them to that ridiculous standard.
- The rulebook is more complex and difficult to enforce.
- Social media and 24/7 news cycles complain about officials constantly, even when they are right or do a fairly good job.
I've done a lot of difficult things in my life, but officiating basketball games is one of the most difficult things I've ever even attempted. I only do high school, I couldn't fathom the difficulty of calling an NBA game.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Exhibit 1, your honor.Oh, it's bad. It's really, really bad. I suspect that the officials just figure now that any bad call can get changed by replay, but that is lazy. Boston made a great strip with a little over a minute left, yet it gets called a foul, and since Boston had no challenges left, a review could not happen. I think the constant reviews have killed basketball anyway (I remember that Suns/Clippers game last year where the last 9 seconds of the game took almost 20 minutes of real time to finish
Note the ridiculous expectations, rule changes from year to year, certainty of opinion and pointing out the flopping.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
the combination of zone defense, virtual doubling of the area in which offense is conducted in the modern game and the unprecedented shoot/drive skills of 7fters have made the game exponentially harder to referee. a ballhandler who loses coverage can get to the goal from 20 feet out in two steps and virtually every way of interrupting that progress is a foul, offensive or defensive, in the game we grew up with. so basketball has come to allow more reaching in and maintaining vertical integrity as valid defense, which creates a tremendous amount more grey area in what calls can and should be made. blitzing, flopping, picksetting, pickpocketing are all much more refined now and almost impossible to keep up with while maintaining any gameflow at all.
watching an NBA game is like arguing with a political opponent anymore - the result is inevitably offputting, upsetting and predictable to the point that one should look at their own expectations as much as the behavior they are monitoring. one hopes, especially when it really matters, that the mistakes come out relatively even and that one's team performs well enough that a game doesnt turn on a single play or call.
were i running the show, i would make two changes - drag my zebras in and hold them accountable every time their work has predictable outcomes (some gamblers are making more money betting refstats than gamestats) and their showboating becomes notorious and dedicate the first half of a season to T-ing up complainers til lobbying is a tenth of what it is now. a personal pecadillo would be to rewrite the license allowed a posting player, even though that's a very small portion of the game now.
watching an NBA game is like arguing with a political opponent anymore - the result is inevitably offputting, upsetting and predictable to the point that one should look at their own expectations as much as the behavior they are monitoring. one hopes, especially when it really matters, that the mistakes come out relatively even and that one's team performs well enough that a game doesnt turn on a single play or call.
were i running the show, i would make two changes - drag my zebras in and hold them accountable every time their work has predictable outcomes (some gamblers are making more money betting refstats than gamestats) and their showboating becomes notorious and dedicate the first half of a season to T-ing up complainers til lobbying is a tenth of what it is now. a personal pecadillo would be to rewrite the license allowed a posting player, even though that's a very small portion of the game now.
Last edited by a moderator:
offdee
Footballguy
This is what NEEDS to happen next season. Just make it known ahead of the season this is what is going to happen and refs just be over the top with it. It will be annoying for all, but something drastic needs to change with the complaining by someone after EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION.
Make this statement early in the season when the games don't mean as much and the weight of all the Technicals aren't detrimental to seasons/playoffs.
Last edited by a moderator:
Add in serious fines/suspensions for straight-up faking fouls (no contact with the head and acting like you were just shot), and you could improve things a lot.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I understand whining to the refs. They are people and they make mistakes and they should have to answer for it.
I think they should limit the complaining/protesting to the coach and a player that is designated like a captain.
I think they should limit the complaining/protesting to the coach and a player that is designated like a captain.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I agree with this. Once the tape is reviewed any obvious flopping should be fined on an escalating scale. The more you flop the more you pay, but it has to be obvious.
Right, and this one doesn't need to be dealt with during the game. Post-game, tape is reviewed, and fines come out automatically
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yep, I have said that for years: if the league would start fining players big time for obvious flops (even if they weren't called in the game), the players wouldn't do it nearly as much (maybe), but the league refuses to fix the problem. The league as a whole is upside down where the players run the show. Even Spoelstra late last night challenged a play that he looked like he knew he wouldn't win, but I am sure he, like most coaches, is afraid of pissing off players by not challenging a play after they throw a fit, so he has to eat it and waste a review.
Last edited by a moderator:
identikit
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
The D-league toyed with giving retroactive T's for flops that were reviewed offsite or during media timeouts a few years back. I thought this was a good avenue to pursue. FIBA hands them out on the spot.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i'm not pro-flop, but i understand them. used to be that, to get a head of steam on a basketball floor, you had to run out on the break. but now there's a cadre of larger players who can upfake at 23 feet and drive str8 to the goal. momentum grants them too large a swath of the lane to get fair consequence for their subsequent evasions of coverage. the only fair way to prevent this is to establish position in front of them. i've seen a lot of flops this postseason, but the lion's share of the players who attempt same pay dearly to try. it's no longer the slip into the PGs path, it's stepping in front of a moving train. that's the game, the only defense against those plays. if there's not a defense for any play, as ive seen several times as the game has evolved over my 60 yrs as a fan, the game suffers from the overload. so flopping is slightly better than the alternative - being able to barrel the lane from the 3-pt line with impunity
Last edited by a moderator:
General Malaise
Footballguy
Jimmy Butler not on the NBA All Star Team or whatever is a collosal joke. That guy is one of the best players on the planet. Who votes for the his crap?
identikit
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
He ranked 29th in scoring and missed 25 games. Not many people would vote for someone like that. It’s a regular season award.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
People like Jalen Rose, who voted Kyrie Irving for the All-NBA team this season.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i had him 9th overall in FFA's recent draft (which was not fantasy but choose-up for play), over Tatum (Jay can do, but Jimmy knows how), Booker, Ja, DaRozen, KAT, CP3, Trae & Siakam in the All-NBA teams. the math dont fit, i know, but i had Bam #8. i'd flip the 2 Heatsters now and put Tatum ahead of him, but i'd still take Adebayo over any of the others listed
the moops
Footballguy
I am hardly a Russell fan, but come on
BBall Talk/Rumor Mill
@DominickNBA
Bleacher Report expects New York Knicks to "aggressively" pursue D'Angelo Russell this offseason. Says they would offer Minnesota both Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier.
https://twitter.com/DominickNBA/status/1530345311666724864?s=20&t=Tn9xyxw4OCh7-gP3IXpgPA
BBall Talk/Rumor Mill
@DominickNBA
Bleacher Report expects New York Knicks to "aggressively" pursue D'Angelo Russell this offseason. Says they would offer Minnesota both Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier.
https://twitter.com/DominickNBA/status/1530345311666724864?s=20&t=Tn9xyxw4OCh7-gP3IXpgPA
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i'd hold out for Arcidiacomo & Taj Gibson, too. and maybe several hot dog carts (with sneeze guards)I am hardly a Russell fan, but come on
BBall Talk/Rumor Mill
@DominickNBA
Bleacher Report expects New York Knicks to "aggressively" pursue D'Angelo Russell this offseason. Says they would offer Minnesota both Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier.
https://twitter.com/DominickNBA/status/1530345311666724864?s=20&t=Tn9xyxw4OCh7-gP3IXpgPA
Tau837
Footballguy
Good responses to my previous post. Here is what I think would help a lot, including a number of the suggestions already mentioned:
- Allow at least just a bit more physicality, e.g., every touch on a player while shooting isn't a foul; every collision in a block/charge situation doesn't have to be a foul; etc.
- Give massive technicals for whining and complaining as has been discussed. Sure, ease up a bit in the playoffs, but not that much.
- Make technicals count as personal fouls like in college.
- Give fines post-game for flopping (offense and defense), increasing amounts with increasing violations, as has been discussed. Work in mandatory suspensions for it too, if a player crosses established thresholds.
- Eliminate team challenges altogether. It seems to me that most calls are upheld, and reversing a few calls isn't worth all of the extra time and angst.
Last edited by a moderator:
offdee
Footballguy
I like all of these, but some misc thoughts...
- the fines postgame for flops. I like the idea but the problem with this is just how much some of these guys get paid. A $25K fine to someone like Giannis is like the price of a cocktail at a bar for us...it's a non-thought. But then there are role players that a $25K fine is a big deal. So this idea gives an advantage to the high paid stars to do the flops cuz they won't care. The suspensions after a certain number I can get with. Haven't thought it through really but bouncing around the idea of something like an in game penalty box idea like in Hockey. If it's an OBVIOUS flop and gets called on the court you go to the penalty box for a certain period of time (and it gets tacked onto your tally towards full game suspension). So if you're a star you better damn well not flop towards the end of a game because you could be in the penalty box for it. (all obvious called flops to the penalty box would need to be reviewed so that could get annoying)
- The final bullet about eliminating team challenges. How about allowing 1 team challenge but it can't be used until the final 5 mins of the 4th quarter. Every time a challenge conversation comes up it's. "ooh, risky using it this early, blah, blah, blah". Just eliminate that chatter and only allow it to use it when it really will mean the most.
Last edited by a moderator:
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
since, as i asserted earlier, teams cant hope to defend most opponentsthese days without a regular strategy of players throwing themselves in the path of opponents, i am against punishments for flopping. pure fakes are an entirely different matter (it's been funny to watch a clearly out-of-gameshape Kyle Lowry attempt to entice and entangle foes into trouble for fun and profit when many of his tricks arent whistled under '21-22 rules - making him the "defensive" equivalent of James Harden).
i would support sportsmanship demerits, with subsequent probations & suspensions for accumulated infractions noted from game audits for fakes, tantrums and other abuses of privilege. ive never understood why any significant business would not audit constantly anyway. since so many people hate flops, it should probably be policed, but i assure y'all that you'll like the game less when there's no way to stop bigs from driving the hole.
General Malaise
Footballguy
If you don't think Jimmy Butler is one of the best players in the NBA, then we just watch the game differently. He couldn't even make the 3rd team all NBA? Good grief.
General Malaise
Footballguy
offdee
Footballguy
I think we're saying only penalize the OBVIOUS flops. The ones where guys throw themselves back and act like they've been shot with a rifle and they are hardly touched.
When bigs drive the lane and guys step in there path and get bowled over....that's not a flop. You can still get called for a defensive foul if don't establish your spot outside of the designated area. But that action won't result in a tech or fine.
On a different note, the action of a big man just using his butt to back a defender into the lane towards the rim....that needs to be called an Offensive foul too. The defender in these cases have no choice right now but to flop to have any chance to stop them. Make it be that any more than one (1) backing down motion like this is called an offensive penalty. You can butt them once, but after that either take a turn around jumper or square up the front of your body to make a basketball move. No more bully ball.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status
Similar threads
