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2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (4 Viewers)

Does anyone else have a terrible feeling screaming Gillisee will be a top 5 RB with NE? 

Maybe it's because he's on my FF team. Maybe because it's NE. I know they have other backs, and just committed a few more years to superbowl hero White, but I can see Gillisee going 1200 yards for them with White being a 3rd down back. 

I really hate seeing him go. As crazy as this sounds, I hate it more than seeing Gilmore sign with NE. (Maybe because I'll still get to enjoy watching Watkins own Gilmore twice a year, and we all know Sammy will do it, if healthy). 

 
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If Sammy stays healthy and productive for the first 8 games, they have to work on a long term deal, right? 

I sometimes think that if he can stay healthy (and ditching the crappy Bills S&C crew may help), I would put him up against any corner in the league and expect him to win. There's maybe 5 WRs in the league with that level of talent. No rosy-eyed glasses here. Am I crazy for thinking a healthy Watkins could produce against a Josh Norman type CB? I really think he could. 

 
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flysack said:
Does anyone else have a terrible feeling screaming Gillisee will be a top 5 RB with NE? 

Maybe it's because he's on my FF team. Maybe because it's NE. I know they have other backs, and just committed a few more years to superbowl hero White, but I can see Gillisee going 1200 yards for them with White being a 3rd down back. 

I really hate seeing him go. As crazy as this sounds, I hate it more than seeing Gilmore sign with NE. (Maybe because I'll still get to enjoy watching Watkins own Gilmore twice a year, and we all know Sammy will do it, if healthy). 
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I don't think this Patriots system will ever produce a top 5 RB.  But I do think Gillisee will be very productive for them.

McCoy getting hurt week 1 and the Bills playing out the season with garbage at RB would be a very Bills thing to happen.

 
flysack said:
If Sammy stays healthy and productive for the first 8 games, they have to work on a long term deal, right? 

I sometimes think that if he can stay healthy (and ditching the crappy Bills S&C crew may help), I would put him up against any corner in the league and expect him to win. There's maybe 5 WRs in the league with that level of talent. No rosy-eyed glasses here. Am I crazy for thinking a healthy Watkins could produce against a Josh Norman type CB? I really think he could. 
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No, I totally agree. He's undoubtedly elite when it comes to getting separation.

 
flysack said:
Does anyone else have a terrible feeling screaming Gillisee will be a top 5 RB with NE? 

Maybe it's because he's on my FF team. Maybe because it's NE. I know they have other backs, and just committed a few more years to superbowl hero White, but I can see Gillisee going 1200 yards for them with White being a 3rd down back. 

I really hate seeing him go. As crazy as this sounds, I hate it more than seeing Gilmore sign with NE. (Maybe because I'll still get to enjoy watching Watkins own Gilmore twice a year, and we all know Sammy will do it, if healthy). 
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You have to figure Gillislee goes for 150/2 in the game in BUF.

As for Gilmore vs. Watkins, NE will scheme safety help over the top and some exotic coverage underneath. In four games against NE, Watkins has had 60, 57, 39, and 27 yards. Maybe that was injury related, but I'm not sure his production against NE will change much this year.

 
ScottNorwood said:
Rotoworld ranked Whaley as the worst GM here:  http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/71467/57/nfls-best-gms-2017?pg=3

I know he has done some good things, but I thought all the criticisms were fair and accurate.
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All the criticisms? The only criticisms are:

EJ Manuel, which was not his pick.

Trade up for Sammy. Yes it was a steep price, but I feel like he needed to make a splash with the new ownership. If Sammy had stayed healthy this wouldn't look nearly as bad.

Bad drafter. I disagree. He's done an at-least average job bringing in talent via the draft.

 
flysack said:
Does anyone else have a terrible feeling screaming Gillisee will be a top 5 RB with NE? 

Maybe it's because he's on my FF team. Maybe because it's NE. I know they have other backs, and just committed a few more years to superbowl hero White, but I can see Gillisee going 1200 yards for them with White being a 3rd down back. 

I really hate seeing him go. As crazy as this sounds, I hate it more than seeing Gilmore sign with NE. (Maybe because I'll still get to enjoy watching Watkins own Gilmore twice a year, and we all know Sammy will do it, if healthy). 
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I think Lewis will steal a lot more work from Gillislee, making Gillislee's value not as strong as Blount was last year.  Lewis was turning into a nice sleeper RB 2 yrs ago but was hurt for most of last year.  Also I still remember that Gillislee had, perhaps minor, but two? concussions as a Bill?

 
PFT reporting that the entire scouting department believes that they'll be fired next week. If that's the case, the writing on the wall seems to be there for Whaley.

What's crazy is that many in the scouting department have been there for a long time. You'd have thought that as bad as the team has been for the last 20 years, this would have been done long ago.

 
GroveDiesel said:
PFT reporting that the entire scouting department believes that they'll be fired next week. If that's the case, the writing on the wall seems to be there for Whaley.

What's crazy is that many in the scouting department have been there for a long time. You'd have thought that as bad as the team has been for the last 20 years, this would have been done long ago.
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Agree and disagree. I don't think talent acquisition has been the Bills' main downfall over the past 20 years. It's been more on lack of QB, below average coach, and being in the same division as the Pats. 

That said, why would you fire your scouts, GM, etc. right after the draft? They should have all been fired the day they were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs last year. That's the part I don't get. I suppose you could say these guys have been following the college crop for a long time, but their replacement should have been too, no?

 
Grigs Allmoon said:
Agree and disagree. I don't think talent acquisition has been the Bills' main downfall over the past 20 years. It's been more on lack of QB, below average coach, and being in the same division as the Pats. 

That said, why would you fire your scouts, GM, etc. right after the draft? They should have all been fired the day they were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs last year. That's the part I don't get. I suppose you could say these guys have been following the college crop for a long time, but their replacement should have been too, no?
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Because they would have been taking a year of work paid for by the Bills including all of their data, and given it to another team. Firing scouts after the draft is part for the course in the NFL.

 
Grigs Allmoon said:
Agree and disagree. I don't think talent acquisition has been the Bills' main downfall over the past 20 years. It's been more on lack of QB, below average coach, and being in the same division as the Pats. 

That said, why would you fire your scouts, GM, etc. right after the draft? They should have all been fired the day they were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs last year. That's the part I don't get. I suppose you could say these guys have been following the college crop for a long time, but their replacement should have been too, no?
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Read through the series of articles here discussing Bills drafts since 2000, it's not pretty. Seems clear that talent acquisition is most definitely a problem for Buffalo (as is identifying and keeping actual drafted talent at reasonable contracts): https://www.google.com/amp/buildingtheherd.com/scout-team/nfl-draft/16710/amp/

 
Let's talk draft...

What's your dream/nightmare scenario for tonight?

For me:

Dream: Draft Mike Williams, or trade down and take an OT.

Nightmare: Draft defense (I don't want another "defensive genius" that spends a ton of draft equity on defense. If you're a defensive expert you should be able to do more with less, not more with more. The offense needs a boost.)

 
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To add to this... I'll be really bummed if they draft Reuben Foster. Too many red flags for a top 10 pick. On top of the drug test, and combine issue, I think I just heard on the redio that he had 3 concussions in college. WAY too risky...

 
Grigs Allmoon said:
Bills are going to have a lot of options between OT and TE at pick 27. I hope that's the direction they go. (Or trade down again...)
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This. Plus they now have two 1st round picks in a much better draft in 2018. 

ETA: I wouldn't have hated them taking Lattimore though.

 
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Grigs Allmoon said:
Meh... More Defensive-minded coach taking defesive players in the draft and expecting us to be impressed they field a good defense...
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CB was arguably their biggest need. I'm totally ok with White here.

They can get OTs, TEs or WRs later. Not much value there for those guys in the 1st

 
Without knowing their draft board, it's hard to fault them for taking White. He may have been BPA for them and filled a need. Or they might have a few targets at other positions that they think they can get later. 

As for the trade, there's two things I liked about it. 1) While it wasn't ideal value, it wasn't bad. A lot of the top guys still on the board were not at positions of need. Or they had significant red flags. 2) For a GM and/or scouting staff that is supposedly about to get fired, that's a pretty selfless trade. It wasn't a good enough deal to really be a gold star on a resume but I think it will be a trade that looks good in hind sight. 

 
If 

Grigs Allmoon said:
Meh... More Defensive-minded coach taking defesive players in the draft and expecting us to be impressed they field a good defense...
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If they had taken a DE or traded up to grab that Foster LB from Alabama, I'd be on board with your complaint. But this was smart drafting. After three! WRs went off the board, they smartly traded down, picked up an additional first rounder for a more talented draft next year, and still landed a good player at a need position.

They still have a couple 2nd rounders, right? And an additional third rounder. They'll go WR next. 

 
A couple of more thoughts:

1) It certainly seems like McDermott is running the show. There is a quote from KC's GM that he talked to Whaley every day this week, but everything else about it tells me this was McDermott. McDermott has a close relationship with Andy Reid. McDermott clearly wanted more draft picks. Whaley traded up way more than he traded down (I think). And McDermott was the one talking about the pick afterwards with Whaley nowhere to be seen. They also chose a guy who fits the McDermott mold quite a bit. Very high quality character guy. Feels like if Whaley was in charge, someone like Foster would have been the guy. 

2) The value for the trade was better than I thought, with most analytics experts giving the Bills quite a bit more value, usually about 50% more value than they gave up. Of course, a lot of that is going to depend on where the Chiefs pick next year and how White ultimately compares to Mahomes and Lattimore. I wonder if any sites break down actual value of trades like this one after the next draft showing what the actual value ended up being?

3) Pretty underwhelming night. We all know that the Bills have a lot of holes and last night was a sign that Buffalo knows that. It's a deep draft and they added another pick in it while staying in the 1st round. They also gave themselves more ammo for next year for a draft that supposedly will be a better QB draft...although we seem to hear that just about every year. White seems like a solid player, but not a game changer type guy at all. Good character, smart, good technique, plays the ball fairly well in the air, but not the best tackler and can get burned. They filled a position of need, but I don't think anyone should expect White to be an elite player.

We will see what tonight holds. Bills could still use an OT, LB, S, WR, DT, OG, C...lots of needs.

 
GroveDiesel said:
CB was arguably their biggest need. I'm totally ok with White here.

They can get OTs, TEs or WRs later. Not much value there for those guys in the 1st
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I'm not really upset with the pick, and I love the trade. I just really want to see them address OL, WR before the late rounds. And I disagree with the value. There was very good value at OL in Ramczyk, Lamp, Robinson.

If they can manage to get Lamp or Robinson in the second, I'll be thrilled. I think they'll both go soon, though. The second tier of WRs has some prospects, too.

 
So now for the future, 2018, the Bills have the ammo to move up and grab one of these stud QB's.  Bills will probably have a pick around 10-13 and the KC pick will probably be in the 20-25 range.

For an outsider looking in, this trade was a great move for the Bills. The 2nd tier of WR's like JuJu are going to be there in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

 
Really liked the move down last night!  Getting extra picks is what this team desperately needs right now, and getting an extra top 100 pick in the 3rd round is huge, plus the unknown value of the extra #1 pick next year.  I'm sure everyone already has been looking at the KC schedule to see how many games they should lose this year.  

On top of that, I like the pick!  They fill a need without reaching.  Everything I've read about White from "respectable" NFL insiders sounds like he's a kid with an all around first class reputation.

The only thing I would have preferred is if they could have found a trade partner with a little higher pick, and then maybe been able to trade down in the first round a second time.  That would have been really great. 

 
I don't watch much college, so i have no idea how good the pick is.  Most of what I'm reading is kind of "low floor/low ceiling" but pro football focus loves him.

 
Players I like today.  I think Tim Williams is off my list as McDermott doesn't seem to have any interest in touching anyone with problems in the past, character wise.

Malik McDowell – DT/DE – Michigan State

Cam Robinson – OT – Alabama

Forest Lamp – OG/OT – Western Kentucky

Derek Rivers – OLB – Youngstown State

Zay Jones – WR – East Carolina

Chidobe Awuzie – CB- Colorado

Kevin King – CB – Washington

Budda Baker – S – Washington

Marcus Maye – S - Florida

Obi Melifonwu – S – UCONN

Taylor Moton – OT – Western Michigan

Raekwon McMillan – LB – Ohio State

Chris Godwin – WR – Penn State

Tim Williams – OLB – Alabama

Gerald Everett – TE – South Alabama

Teez Tabor – CB – Florida

Nathan Peterson – QB – Pittsburgh

Eddie Jackson – S – Alabama

Adam Shaheen – TE – Ashland

 
Well 12 picks in, chances are at least 10 of these names shown here are going to be gone.  Some players like Eddie Jackson and Shaheen , who I have man-crush with, should be gone late 2nd/early 3rd.

 
Gottabesweet said:
Players I like today.  I think Tim Williams is off my list as McDermott doesn't seem to have any interest in touching anyone with problems in the past, character wise.

Malik McDowell – DT/DE – Michigan State

Cam Robinson – OT – Alabama

Forest Lamp – OG/OT – Western Kentucky

Derek Rivers – OLB – Youngstown State

Zay Jones – WR – East Carolina

Chidobe Awuzie – CB- Colorado

Kevin King – CB – Washington

Budda Baker – S – Washington

Marcus Maye – S - Florida

Obi Melifonwu – S – UCONN

Taylor Moton – OT – Western Michigan

Raekwon McMillan – LB – Ohio State

Chris Godwin – WR – Penn State

Tim Williams – OLB – Alabama

Gerald Everett – TE – South Alabama

Teez Tabor – CB – Florida

Nathan Peterson – QB – Pittsburgh

Eddie Jackson – S – Alabama

Adam Shaheen – TE – Ashland
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Kizer still out there. He could be interesting value in the second round to sit behind Tyrod...learn....and provide depth. 

I'd love it if Robinson fell though. the prospect of going into the season with Miller starting is frightening.

 
flysack said:
Kizer still out there. He could be interesting value in the second round to sit behind Tyrod...learn....and provide depth. 

I'd love it if Robinson fell though. the prospect of going into the season with Miller starting is frightening.
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I'd think they let Robinson battle Mills at RT and if he can't win there see where he stacks up with Miller.

I had Kizer on this list earlier, took him off.  I'd like that because it means next year we won't have to package picks to get a QB.

The more I see it now is that we are going in on a QB next year.  Tyrod's contract we can get out of, Yates is here. If they draft one this year, I can't see them cutting Jones just yet, even if deserved.

 
Zach Cunningham would be a good fit.

flysack: Do you mean that Robinson would compete with Mills? If so, yeah, that would be great. Miller was actually pretty good last year at RG after a pretty bad rookie year.

And no no no no on Kizer. I don't care for him at all. Next year's QBs look to be much better than this year's crop. I'd rather invest in obtaining a QB in next year's draft than this year's.

 
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Really? Kizer? I see it as a wasted pick IF he was available when Bills are on the clock, assuming Bills wouldn't trade up.  I see San Fran maybe going for him early tonight.

Bills don't need another QB to be on the bench.  Their future QB is going to be drafted next year, not today or tomorrow or currently on the roster.

 
CanadianNFLJunkie said:
Really? Kizer? I see it as a wasted pick IF he was available when Bills are on the clock, assuming Bills wouldn't trade up.  I see San Fran maybe going for him early tonight.

Bills don't need another QB to be on the bench.  Their future QB is going to be drafted next year, not today or tomorrow or currently on the roster.
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We can hope Tyrod takes a bigger step with Dennison and you have two luxury first round picks next year.

They could have let Tyrod walk if they were content with a QB next year.  You'll have to compete with the Jets, Browns, 49ers and maybe more for next years QB class.  If the Browns don't take anyone this year they'll have more ammo than us to get to where they need to.  Unless we pick 1.

The Bills are a likely 7-9 team as is this year.

 
Count me in the hell-no-to-Kizer camp. I don't really think he has much more of a shot that Jones to make it in the NFL, and I didn't like the Jones pick last year, at all.

If they want to take a shot on a QB in the 5th or 6th, just to see if he comes in and things click quickly, I'd be fine with it. But, I'd be focussing on next year to take a real shot at a QB. They'll have ammo, and everyone says next year's class is a lot better. Why take the leftovers of a bad class?

 
Gottabesweet said:
Players I like today.  I think Tim Williams is off my list as McDermott doesn't seem to have any interest in touching anyone with problems in the past, character wise.

Malik McDowell – DT/DE – Michigan State

Cam Robinson – OT – Alabama

Forest Lamp – OG/OT – Western Kentucky

Derek Rivers – OLB – Youngstown State

Zay Jones – WR – East Carolina

Chidobe Awuzie – CB- Colorado

Kevin King – CB – Washington

Budda Baker – S – Washington

Marcus Maye – S - Florida

Obi Melifonwu – S – UCONN

Taylor Moton – OT – Western Michigan

Raekwon McMillan – LB – Ohio State

Chris Godwin – WR – Penn State

Tim Williams – OLB – Alabama

Gerald Everett – TE – South Alabama

Teez Tabor – CB – Florida

Nathan Peterson – QB – Pittsburgh

Eddie Jackson – S – Alabama

Adam Shaheen – TE – Ashland
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Good list. I've mentioned it before, but I love Robinson and Lamp. They'll be gone, though.

Another guy I'm intrigued by, that you don't have on this list, is Dede Westbrook. He may not be the best long term selection, but an electric, ad-lib-type playmaker could fit this offense's style for as long as Tyrod is the QB.

That said, I kind of want to tank this season... Trade Tyrod to Cleveland. Trade McCoy to Indy. Trade Hughes to Green Bay. Trade any other older guys if you can get any youth/pick. Let's do a real rebuild.

 
GroveDiesel said:
Zach Cunningham would be a good fit.

flysack: Do you mean that Robinson would compete with Mills? If so, yeah, that would be great. Miller was actually pretty good last year at RG after a pretty bad rookie year.

And no no no no on Kizer. I don't care for him at all. Next year's QBs look to be much better than this year's crop. I'd rather invest in obtaining a QB in next year's draft than this year's.
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Mills, yea. My bad.

 
flysack said:
Don't get me wrong: I'm praying for either OL or WR with the next couple picks. 
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No doubt. I would be pleased with 1 WR and 2 OL in their picks tonight. You need depth at OL. These guys get hurt fairly often, and you can't scheme around a big hole on the OL. You can if you lose nearly any other position.

 
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