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2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter GroveDiesel
- Start date
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
At least they'll have a high draft pick in 2015 to draft a QB!!
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
haha I already started thinking what QB might be available in the top 5-10 for us in 2016. I hate this team sometimes.
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we've said that for most of the past 15 years and it hasn't happened. this team is good enough and the AFC is weak enough for them to make a run with Orton under center.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Christian Hackenberg will look great in a Bills uniform! lol
also I disagree that this "closes the book" on EJ. Sitting and watching for a bit may help him. Maybe not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he gets another shot at some point and plays better.
the mentality that you have to stick with a young QB or else he's done for good seems like outdated thinking. playing time should be based on merit and he hasn't played well enough to remain the starter right now. If Orton plays great, then EJ sits as long as necessary. But, Orton could go out and get hurt in the 1st quarter on Sunday and EJ is right back to being the guy again.
the mentality that you have to stick with a young QB or else he's done for good seems like outdated thinking. playing time should be based on merit and he hasn't played well enough to remain the starter right now. If Orton plays great, then EJ sits as long as necessary. But, Orton could go out and get hurt in the 1st quarter on Sunday and EJ is right back to being the guy again.
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lod01
Footballguy
They must see that they can make a run at the division if the resolve problem #1.
OC Zed
Footballguy
Maybe.
My hunch is that Sam Bradford will be the starting QB in Week 1 next year.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I agree. Orton gives them a better chance to win right now, no question in my mind. It just another signal of the Bills ineptitude, benching "the future" 4 games into his second season when he's only played 14 games. Hopefully EJ comes back from this but I kinda doubt it. Winning cures all that ails them, but Kyle Orton isn't gonna be a long-term starter.
It feels eerily similar to when they benched JP for Kelly Holcomb back in the day.
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Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Actually told someone that when Bradford got hurt. Rams won't keep him around. If the knee checks out I think he would be a nice Alex Smith type starter.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I know people are going to say this is premature, but I'm completely fine if the Bills just cut their losses with EJ and move on. If his issue was just vision or reading defenses or something like that, then yeah sure let's all hope that he develops. But the guy is just flat-out inaccurate and I don't see any amount of coaching fixing that. If you're missing wide-open receivers like he was on Sunday and every completion is an adventure, you're just not NFL material. We're not going anywhere with Orton either, but I'm ready to give up on Manuel and address this position in free agency and/or the draft (again).
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Is orton beter or worse for Watkins and Spiller?
#1 Don't you think the inaccuracy was driven at least in part by the fact he had no protection the past couple weeks? Even when he has a chance to step into his throws, I agree they don't look good. But, it all falls apart dramatically when he's under constant duress like he was this week.
#2 Why do people assume this team isn't going anywhere under Orton? That game was very winnable with a competent QB under center. Heck, the Chargers game probably was too.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
On #1, his accuracy has always been an issue, even when he's under no pressure whatsoever. Even when the pass is complete, it's practically always high, low, or behind the receiver. It's very rare for him to hit anybody on target and in stride. The TD pass to Watkins yesterday was an exception of course.
On #2, good point. I think we were always losing to SD regardless, but we would have won yesterday's game relatively comfortably with just a game-manager at QB. I'm not very familiar with Orton's game but if he can do that, great.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
The accuracy was bad in the first two games too. He had some receivers make good catches.
That will happen once in a while, but when it seems to happen on most throws, even while not under pressure it is a real bad sign, that gets much worse when pressure is applied.
That will happen once in a while, but when it seems to happen on most throws, even while not under pressure it is a real bad sign, that gets much worse when pressure is applied.
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GregR
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Even when given time Manuel's accuracy is horrible. I think it stems from poor footwork and mentally he just seems like he's always 'aiming" it instead of just throwing it.
It's rare to see guys at this level actually improve their footwork and improve their accuracy. It just doesn't happen very often. I was hopeful that it would happen, but he's just not even in the same zip code most of the time.
It's a shame because I feel like he did make big stride in being able to read defenses and go through his progression, but finding the right receiver doesn't matter if you can't throw it to him accurately.
I think Orton can get them to the playoffs this year, but clearly they're back to square one as far as the future goes.
One of Griffin/Cousins in a couple of years could be OK maybe.
It's rare to see guys at this level actually improve their footwork and improve their accuracy. It just doesn't happen very often. I was hopeful that it would happen, but he's just not even in the same zip code most of the time.
It's a shame because I feel like he did make big stride in being able to read defenses and go through his progression, but finding the right receiver doesn't matter if you can't throw it to him accurately.
I think Orton can get them to the playoffs this year, but clearly they're back to square one as far as the future goes.
One of Griffin/Cousins in a couple of years could be OK maybe.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Orton is going to get destroyed by that front four. Now we will run the ball unsuccessfully 40 times. I'm in mid season negative form and it's only week 5
Go Chiefs tonight.
Go Chiefs tonight.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
He's learning to play behind a non-existent OLine this season, so he'll be ready for the Bills.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
AFC East - worst division in football?
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
Unlike the Jets, you guys have a coach who is willing to make a proactive move to try to win. Maybe Orton doesn't have it. But your division is there for the taking right now and at least you should be happy to have a coach willing to take a shot now versus the vague promises of someday the Jets coach is giving to their fans.
Hopefully my Bengals take it to the Patriots for you guys next week
-QG
Hopefully my Bengals take it to the Patriots for you guys next week
-QG
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
thecardiackid
Footballguy
We can only hope.
Sincerely,
Browns fans
(seriously though, as another (former) "north coaster" i want to see the bills do well - just not this year...) At least the PATS look like hot garbage along w/ the phins and jets, so never say never. And I'd bet once you guys do figure out the QB, Sammy will eventually be worth the price.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
OK, now that the Manuel/Orton stuff is sorted out, I want to know how bad Kyle Williams's knee injury is. If it's bad, then that would take a major hit to their playoff chances even making the change to Orton.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Joe B suspects he's out and with the Bills being so quiet about it - I bet he's out for awhile.GroveDiesel said:
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
That's what I'm fearing. With no word, my guess is he tore something and they are waiting to confirm it before making an announcement.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
I don't think this Detroit game is the one to gauge this team on for the rest of the year. Orton is just being thrown in and anything can happen this game. I'm optimistic for a win but Detroit has been pretty good this year. We're gonna need our playmakers to keep up with Calvin and company.
I think the game to gauge the rest of our year and if we make the playoffs is the Patriots game the following week. If we beat the Patriots then I will feel much better about our chances of making it in. And I think the only way we are making it in is by winning our weak division. But NE is like our big brother that we're still intimidated by. Brady could be having a terrible year, but he'll throw for like 4 td's against us.
So I think we'll have a good idea of our team after the Patriots game. Let's just hope Kyle is OK and we don't suffer anymore big injuries on our D. It's those guys who will make or break our team.
I think the game to gauge the rest of our year and if we make the playoffs is the Patriots game the following week. If we beat the Patriots then I will feel much better about our chances of making it in. And I think the only way we are making it in is by winning our weak division. But NE is like our big brother that we're still intimidated by. Brady could be having a terrible year, but he'll throw for like 4 td's against us.
So I think we'll have a good idea of our team after the Patriots game. Let's just hope Kyle is OK and we don't suffer anymore big injuries on our D. It's those guys who will make or break our team.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
So I guess Chandler whiffed on the Watt pick 6.
When are we getting a real TE?
When are we getting a real TE?
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I'm really surprised that there hasn't been some information out on Bradham or Williams yet. Usually something would have come out by now.
So far all we know is that neither is practicing today. Bradham is in the practice bubble with a trainer and has a large brace on his knee. Kyle was seen heading to the weight room without a brace or noticeable limp.
Weird.
So far all we know is that neither is practicing today. Bradham is in the practice bubble with a trainer and has a large brace on his knee. Kyle was seen heading to the weight room without a brace or noticeable limp.
Weird.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
No Williams or Bradham at practice today, no word on them but I bet they want them for NE more. if even healthy.
Williams watched from the side today.
Williams watched from the side today.
They drafted Torrell Troup over a kid from Williamsville who turned out to be the best TE in the NFL.
:(
OC Zed
Footballguy
Vic Carucci says missing "multiple games" is possible for Kyle Williams.
https://twitter.com/viccarucci/status/517357866542698496
https://twitter.com/viccarucci/status/517357866542698496
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
My wall took a dent after that pick. Wanted Gronk pretty bad.
My wall took an even bigger dent when we took Maybin over Orakpo.
My wall took an even bigger dent after we traded up to take TJ Graham over Russell Wilson.
I hate this team sometimes.
cstu
Footballguy
Orton has never played in a playoff game in his life. I guess stranger things have happened.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
If the coaching staff is right and Manuel sucks then fire the GM and scouts now for drafting a QB in round one it only took 14 games for the coaches to figure out couldn't play. Or get rid of a coach who is hindering the long term development of the franchise QB to save his own butt. It's one or the other.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Unless the Bills make the playoffs I believe Marrone and his staff will be fired.
At this point I think I would like it if Whaley stays on. I think he's done a pretty good job in the draft so far. And if Manual really was Nix's pick and not his, then I would feel even better about him.
At this point I think I would like it if Whaley stays on. I think he's done a pretty good job in the draft so far. And if Manual really was Nix's pick and not his, then I would feel even better about him.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
How many of those teams that passed on him were desperate for a QB like us?
How many of those teams that passed on him ran an offense where he would have thrived?
How many of those teams were linked to him before and during the draft?
Just because you didn't have the foresight doesn't mean a lot of us didn't. I know a whole mess of Bills fans that were pissed we passed on Wilson for a WR most thought of as a reach. And that was before Wilson ever played a down. Shoot, I was in a room full of at least 15 and almost everyone was screaming at the TV when we passed on him.
Now of course he could be what he is today because of the team he went to. And maybe he wouldn't be anything close to what he is now if we had drafted him (although with Gailey he could've been great). But I like to think he'd be a heck of a lot better than anything we had and currently have.
OC Zed
Footballguy
At least half of the teams in the NFL are at any given time in need of a QB upgrade. Again, Wilson was not a slam dunk and given the information available and was rightly valued as a third round pick (and still isn't a complete QB - though I acknowledge he excels in Seattle). Fitzpatrick had just come off a season where he played well until the rib injury and had just signed a long-term, expensive deal. The front office should not be criticized in missing on an undersized QB in the third round. So did at least 16 other teams at the time.
To be blunt, what's done is done. We just have to get over it and move on.
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the GM who drafted him is already gone.
TONS of QBs and players drafted in round 1 turn out to be busts. Why is this so special that it warrants this type of reaction?
Also, pretty sure it was the coaching staff who wanted to go all-in with EJ. That's why Marrone was apparently pissed they brought in Orton when they did. So, I don't think the coaches think EJ sucks...they just think Orton gives them a better chance to win now, and they are correct IMO.
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GroveDiesel
Footballguy
The real shame Is that they knew Manuel was a project and wanted him to sit for a year or two and learn. Kolb's career being ended screwed that whole thing up. Then you throw in the multiple injuries to EJ that hampered his learning curve and it was a real series of unfortunate events. It all pretty much went the worst possible way it could have and a huge majority of it was out of anyone's control.
The biggest error they made was in not bringing in a more suitable backup at an earlier time.
The biggest error they made was in not bringing in a more suitable backup at an earlier time.
On The Rocks
Footballguy
Like Mr. Peterson said, not all of those teams were as good of a fit as the Bills, and even if you want to say they deserve criticism for passing on him, that doesn't mean the Bills don't deserve to be criticized as well. Signing Fitzpatrick to that contract was a mistake, which was then compounded by passing on a QB in the draft. His deal obviously wasn't a long term albatross since they cut him a year later, so they very easily could have had him and Wilson on the team at the same time.
No one is saying he was a slam dunk at the time, but that's the difference between a 3rd round pick and a 1st round pick. The only major question/flaw with Wilson was his height, which made him a good gamble in the 3rd. Manuel had many more questions/flaws, which made him a terrible gamble in the 1st.
OC Zed
Footballguy
I posted this in the EJ thread, but it's also pertinent here. Good mentality from EJ at this point:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11629515/ej-manuel-buffalo-bills-says-wants-different-player
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11629515/ej-manuel-buffalo-bills-says-wants-different-player
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Last year I actually thought QB E.J. Manuel looked 'ok' but it seemed Bills fans had misgivings. This year I had heard concerns about E.J. in camp, that the issues he had last year were not being resolved.
Then the Bills went out and signed Orton right before the season began. Odd timing but it would seem that they had concerns over Manuel yet the reports of conflict between the front office and head coach flaring up on the sidelines would seem to indicate Marone did not want Orton and instead wanted to go ahead with Manuel.
I put the reports I heard about Manuel on the back burner and watched to see how he looked and he looked 'ok' the first two games and Buffalo was winning so I thought he was solving the problems he had but the skid happened and the issues popped up and now we'll Orton.
I bit my tongue and didn't share what I heard about E.J. but I think switching to Orton is a flat out mistake.
He's not someone to build a team around. He is not a proven winner. He creates stats and looks good but he is not a winner and not someone to build a team around. The fact the Bills traded away that first round pick next year would make it more difficult to find 'thee-guy' in next year's draft so my strategy would be to go out and find a developmental guy right now and not hand the keys over to Orton.
Granted their are not a ton of 'great' prospects out there to develop but one guy that caught my eye this preseason was QB David Fales who was drafted by Chicago in the 6th round and he's sitting on their practice squad and wouldn't cost a pick. I'm sure their are other guys sitting on practice squads who would be good developmental quarterback prospects but going with Orton seems like a waste of time and a big mistake since he's never been a winner. He will look 'good' but his winning percentage is in the 30% range and he has been on some good teams with good skill players and O-Lines around him.
The fact that E.J. has already been replaced doesn't surprise me and on the surface Orton is a fine stop-gap fill-in QB to patch over a week or two of injury but going to him this early in the year is not a wise move IMHO. He will look 'good' and put up solid stats but I don't expect wins and I know the Bills aren't building around this guy so it seems like a waste of time and a mistake. I would much rather they invest the time in a developmental guy to build hope for the future.
The only way I would like the switch to Orton would be if Orton is only a stop-gap guy and they plan to get some developmental guy on the field. I actually agree with the decision to move-on from E.J. since it doesn't look like he'll ever be 'thee-guy' but I KNOW that Orton isn't 'thee-guy' so I hope Buffalo makes a gutsy decision and signs a guy like a David Fales and at least attempts to begin to develop a guy for the future.
Just my
Then the Bills went out and signed Orton right before the season began. Odd timing but it would seem that they had concerns over Manuel yet the reports of conflict between the front office and head coach flaring up on the sidelines would seem to indicate Marone did not want Orton and instead wanted to go ahead with Manuel.
I put the reports I heard about Manuel on the back burner and watched to see how he looked and he looked 'ok' the first two games and Buffalo was winning so I thought he was solving the problems he had but the skid happened and the issues popped up and now we'll Orton.
I bit my tongue and didn't share what I heard about E.J. but I think switching to Orton is a flat out mistake.
He's not someone to build a team around. He is not a proven winner. He creates stats and looks good but he is not a winner and not someone to build a team around. The fact the Bills traded away that first round pick next year would make it more difficult to find 'thee-guy' in next year's draft so my strategy would be to go out and find a developmental guy right now and not hand the keys over to Orton.
Granted their are not a ton of 'great' prospects out there to develop but one guy that caught my eye this preseason was QB David Fales who was drafted by Chicago in the 6th round and he's sitting on their practice squad and wouldn't cost a pick. I'm sure their are other guys sitting on practice squads who would be good developmental quarterback prospects but going with Orton seems like a waste of time and a big mistake since he's never been a winner. He will look 'good' but his winning percentage is in the 30% range and he has been on some good teams with good skill players and O-Lines around him.
The fact that E.J. has already been replaced doesn't surprise me and on the surface Orton is a fine stop-gap fill-in QB to patch over a week or two of injury but going to him this early in the year is not a wise move IMHO. He will look 'good' and put up solid stats but I don't expect wins and I know the Bills aren't building around this guy so it seems like a waste of time and a mistake. I would much rather they invest the time in a developmental guy to build hope for the future.
The only way I would like the switch to Orton would be if Orton is only a stop-gap guy and they plan to get some developmental guy on the field. I actually agree with the decision to move-on from E.J. since it doesn't look like he'll ever be 'thee-guy' but I KNOW that Orton isn't 'thee-guy' so I hope Buffalo makes a gutsy decision and signs a guy like a David Fales and at least attempts to begin to develop a guy for the future.
Just my
OC Zed
Footballguy
A few points...Last year I actually thought QB E.J. Manuel looked 'ok' but it seemed Bills fans had misgivings. This year I had heard concerns about E.J. in camp, that the issues he had last year were not being resolved.
Then the Bills went out and signed Orton right before the season began. Odd timing but it would seem that they had concerns over Manuel yet the reports of conflict between the front office and head coach flaring up on the sidelines would seem to indicate Marone did not want Orton and instead wanted to go ahead with Manuel.
I put the reports I heard about Manuel on the back burner and watched to see how he looked and he looked 'ok' the first two games and Buffalo was winning so I thought he was solving the problems he had but the skid happened and the issues popped up and now we'll Orton.
I bit my tongue and didn't share what I heard about E.J. but I think switching to Orton is a flat out mistake.
He's not someone to build a team around. He is not a proven winner. He creates stats and looks good but he is not a winner and not someone to build a team around. The fact the Bills traded away that first round pick next year would make it more difficult to find 'thee-guy' in next year's draft so my strategy would be to go out and find a developmental guy right now and not hand the keys over to Orton.
Granted their are not a ton of 'great' prospects out there to develop but one guy that caught my eye this preseason was QB David Fales who was drafted by Chicago in the 6th round and he's sitting on their practice squad and wouldn't cost a pick. I'm sure their are other guys sitting on practice squads who would be good developmental quarterback prospects but going with Orton seems like a waste of time and a big mistake since he's never been a winner. He will look 'good' but his winning percentage is in the 30% range and he has been on some good teams with good skill players and O-Lines around him.
The fact that E.J. has already been replaced doesn't surprise me and on the surface Orton is a fine stop-gap fill-in QB to patch over a week or two of injury but going to him this early in the year is not a wise move IMHO. He will look 'good' and put up solid stats but I don't expect wins and I know the Bills aren't building around this guy so it seems like a waste of time and a mistake. I would much rather they invest the time in a developmental guy to build hope for the future.
The only way I would like the switch to Orton would be if Orton is only a stop-gap guy and they plan to get some developmental guy on the field. I actually agree with the decision to move-on from E.J. since it doesn't look like he'll ever be 'thee-guy' but I KNOW that Orton isn't 'thee-guy' so I hope Buffalo makes a gutsy decision and signs a guy like a David Fales and at least attempts to begin to develop a guy for the future.
Just my
I don't think the Bills view this as "building around" Orton. They are simply looking to win right now and they think Orton gives them the best chance right now. And after my initial reaction, I now honestly don't think they've completely turned the page on Manuel. The door could be open for him later in the season or next off-season.
Also, Orton's career winning percentage is exactly .500 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/game_query.cgi?qb=OrtoKy00&yr=)... materially better than 30%. He's basically Ryan Fitzpatrick 2.0 for better/worse. I'm hoping for the better as Fitzpatrick's own inaccuracy problems drove me nuts for 4 years.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Let's take solace in last night's performance by Christian Ponder. EJ was had with a (slightly) later pick and we are cutting bait much earlier than the Vikings did. It could be worse....
The Bills are still a .500 team, undefeated within the division and in 1st place. That's with absolutely awful play at QB. Miami, New England and the Jets are terrible terrible teams. If Orton can be somewhat serviceable we've still got a chance. Let's get all aboard the Orton train before it leaves the station.
Billieve my friends. Billieve.
The Bills are still a .500 team, undefeated within the division and in 1st place. That's with absolutely awful play at QB. Miami, New England and the Jets are terrible terrible teams. If Orton can be somewhat serviceable we've still got a chance. Let's get all aboard the Orton train before it leaves the station.
Billieve my friends. Billieve.
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