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2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (2 Viewers)

Interesting pick. We shall see how this pans out.

They get a top QB as well as still having the 22 pick - another solid player, hopefully.

Based on projections of Darnold and maybe Mayfield being gone when they made that trade up to 12, it seems like Beane got his guy. Hope he's right...

 
Grigs Allmoon said:
Interesting pick. We shall see how this pans out.

They get a top QB as well as still having the 22 pick - another solid player, hopefully.

Based on projections of Darnold and maybe Mayfield being gone when they made that trade up to 12, it seems like Beane got his guy. Hope he's right...
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Talk is Beane will attempt to trade back and make up for the lost 2nds.

 
Not ideal but I’m loving this draft. Fun to see them making moves and adding the pieces they want.

You all are way too down this draft just because you didn’t get Rosen. I’ll take the next Big Ben over the next Whiny Eli every day of the week. 

Edmunds is a stud. Definitely worth it to drop a 3rd down to 5th. 

 
Man oh man, Beane just said that they didn't know about the Tweets before. How can you possibly have done the appropriate research on a potential franchise QB and not have had someone scour their social media feeds?! That's just inexcusable and incompetence in this day and age. Unreal.

 
GroveDiesel said:
Man oh man, Beane just said that they didn't know about the Tweets before. How can you possibly have done the appropriate research on a potential franchise QB and not have had someone scour their social media feeds?! That's just inexcusable and incompetence in this day and age. Unreal.
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"How do we handle the media firestorm when they find out the guy we've been targetting for months has a history of racism?"

"Let's just pretend we didn't know that, and act outraged after the pick until it blows over!"

"Sure thing, Billy.  That should work..."

 
So we get a tall QB with a big arm and big hands who can't hit the broadside of a barn?  Sounds like EJ Manual 2.0... except this one comes into the league with the potential to instantly divide a locker room.  Oh, and we gave up both our second round picks for him.

It gets harder and harder to root for this team.

 
OC Zed said:
So we get a tall QB with a big arm and big hands who can't hit the broadside of a barn?  Sounds like EJ Manual 2.0... except this one comes into the league with the potential to instantly divide a locker room.  Oh, and we gave up both our second round picks for him.

It gets harder and harder to root for this team.
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:lmao:

divided locker room... :lmao:

 
OC Zed said:
Maybe this all blows over by summer.  Maybe it doesn't.  It's not as if race wasn't an issue at all last year in the NFL.  It was kind of a big deal.
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Where was it a big deal in a locker room between whites and blacks?

 
BassNBrew said:
Where was it a big deal in a locker room between whites and blacks?
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It was an issue all throughout the league.  Don't pretend it wasn't.

Look, I chalk this up to Allen being young and immature and he shouldn't be persecuted for it for the rest of his career.  But this also isn't the look you want for the guy who's supposed to be the face of your franchise and leader of your team (and someone you gave away some significant draft capital for while your roster is pretty bare in plenty of spots).  It just isn't.  And it's underscored by the fact that he has some serious concerns around his accuracy, consistency and mechanics... all three extremely components to being a successful player at his position.  

 
OC Zed said:
BassNBrew said:
Where was it a big deal in a locker room between whites and blacks?
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It was an issue all throughout the league.  Don't pretend it wasn't.

Look, I chalk this up to Allen being young and immature and he shouldn't be persecuted for it for the rest of his career.  But this also isn't the look you want for the guy who's supposed to be the face of your franchise and leader of your team (and someone you gave away some significant draft capital for while your roster is pretty bare in plenty of spots).  It just isn't.  And it's underscored by the fact that he has some serious concerns around his accuracy, consistency and mechanics... all three extremely components to being a successful player at his position.  
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So what blacks/whites were having issues with whites/blacks in the league last year?

If you want to crap on him for the last three issues you bring up then that's cool, but he's not failing in the NFL for say niga in a tweet when he was 15.

 
I feel like I'm the only Bills fan in North America who's happy with the Allen pick.  Admittedly, I would have been happy with any of the top six QBs provided that we didn't give up too much to get one, and if we had taken Rosen in this spot that would have been great too.  Personally though, I prefer going for the high-ceiling pick in this case.  I remember the EJ Manuel pick very well.  Josh Allen may very well turn out to be a bust -- lots and lots of highly-drafted QBs are -- but he presents a far better risk-reward outlook than Manuel ever did.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I feel like I'm the only Bills fan in North America who's happy with the Allen pick.  Admittedly, I would have been happy with any of the top six QBs provided that we didn't give up too much to get one, and if we had taken Rosen in this spot that would have been great too.  Personally though, I prefer going for the high-ceiling pick in this case.  I remember the EJ Manuel pick very well.  Josh Allen may very well turn out to be a bust -- lots and lots of highly-drafted QBs are -- but he presents a far better risk-reward outlook than Manuel ever did.
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I just think history makes it clear that QBs with accuracy issues in college don't last long in the NFL. Accuracy improvements just simply don't happen. And an inaccurate QB is worthless no matter how strong his arm is.

And Allen wasn't struggling with accuracy and anticipation against the SEC or BIG10, he struggled against a Mountain West that was pretty bad defensively. Allen had the nerve to blame his WRs when he was at the Senior Bowl, but Rosen and Jackson had far more drops by their receivers and played against superior competition.

This stat pretty much sums it up for me: Josh Allen has the lowest college completion percentage of any QB drafted in the last 3 years.

That's a recipe for failure IMO.

 
I have been following the Allen draft possibilities for at least a month, mostly in the Cleveland thread.  Amazing how lazy everyone is about his accuracy and the group think/template that has been created.  Yes he does have some accuracy issues, but they are being way blown out of proportion.  His accuracy is more wild (when he missed, he really missed) than consistently terrible.  Listening to Phil Simms on NFL radio this week revealed that the Wyoming offense was not QB friendly either in scheme or personnel.  Phil logged each throw of the top 6 QBs from last year and said if Allen had the opportunity to throw the same number of WR screens that Mayfield did last year, his completion percentage would have been in the low 60s.  But the Wyoming offense pushed everything down field with no screens and very few slants.  That puts his accuracy issues in a little different light. 

In the end, each of these QBs had flaws and those that get the proper coaching to eliminate those flaws will be successful.

BTW, it was reported last night that Allen had deleted the tweets previously but someone had kept them on their phone since his HS days and released them to Yahoo late this week.

 
Ksquared said:
I have been following the Allen draft possibilities for at least a month, mostly in the Cleveland thread.  Amazing how lazy everyone is about his accuracy and the group think/template that has been created.  Yes he does have some accuracy issues, but they are being way blown out of proportion.  His accuracy is more wild (when he missed, he really missed) than consistently terrible.  Listening to Phil Simms on NFL radio this week revealed that the Wyoming offense was not QB friendly either in scheme or personnel.  Phil logged each throw of the top 6 QBs from last year and said if Allen had the opportunity to throw the same number of WR screens that Mayfield did last year, his completion percentage would have been in the low 60s.  But the Wyoming offense pushed everything down field with no screens and very few slants.  That puts his accuracy issues in a little different light. 

In the end, each of these QBs had flaws and those that get the proper coaching to eliminate those flaws will be successful.

BTW, it was reported last night that Allen had deleted the tweets previously but someone had kept them on their phone since his HS days and released them to Yahoo late this week.
Click to expand...
I choosing to be happy and optimistic about Allen but his accuracy isn’t good even when you do the breakdowns of it (taking away WR drops, dividing route depths, etc). PFF has done a lot of work on this and Allen has still displayed subpar accuracy in pretty much every way.

***Side tangent not directed at ksquared: People need to stop saying PFF analytics or metrics are just “looking at stats and need to watch actual game tape”. PFF watches game tape and puts quantifiable numbers to the tape. It’s not just them looking at box scores. ***

 
He was 2nd All Team Mountain West last year behind a Boise State QB who split reps. With all the weapons the Bills have on offense, Allen can't miss. 

 
Ksquared said:
I have been following the Allen draft possibilities for at least a month, mostly in the Cleveland thread.  Amazing how lazy everyone is about his accuracy and the group think/template that has been created.  Yes he does have some accuracy issues, but they are being way blown out of proportion.  His accuracy is more wild (when he missed, he really missed) than consistently terrible.  Listening to Phil Simms on NFL radio this week revealed that the Wyoming offense was not QB friendly either in scheme or personnel.  Phil logged each throw of the top 6 QBs from last year and said if Allen had the opportunity to throw the same number of WR screens that Mayfield did last year, his completion percentage would have been in the low 60s.  But the Wyoming offense pushed everything down field with no screens and very few slants.  That puts his accuracy issues in a little different light. 

In the end, each of these QBs had flaws and those that get the proper coaching to eliminate those flaws will be successful.

BTW, it was reported last night that Allen had deleted the tweets previously but someone had kept them on their phone since his HS days and released them to Yahoo late this week.
Click to expand...
Lol. Mayfield completed 70%+ of his passes each of the last two years doing that. So Allen's numbers would STILL suck in comparison to the other top QBs.

And Lamar Jackson had an average depth of target much deeper than Allen, had a higher percentage of dropped passes and STILL had a higher completion percentage than Allen against tougher defenses.

There really just is no excusing Allen's accuracy issues. They are real and they are a huge concern.

Allen said last night that his accuracy issues stemmed largely from footwork issues. I certainly hope that he is correct because footwork issues are pretty correctable. It's pretty much the best hope Bills fans have of Allen becoming a franchise type QB.

 
I thought Rosen would have been the pick though I don't know if he would have been the best pick in terms of fitting team culture, connection with the community, etc. From what I recall Buffalo's last attempt at a California/west coast QB didn't work out very well and the fan base never took to him (Rob Johnson).

I kind of have to chuckle though, yesterday morning listening to local talk radio (Shredd and Ragan) the lead guy was going on ad nauseum about Buffalo NOT taking Allen. Paraphrasing, he was saying things like "Oh god, you just KNOW the Bills are going to pick the one bust of the group, PLEASE don't take Allen" etc.

Now, that guy (I never remember which is Shredd  and which is Ragan) annoys the hell out of me because he says some of the dumbest things you can imagine (the one that sticks out to me was when he said a year or so ago "Buffalo was one OC away from winning all those Super Bowls") so he'll probably whiff on his Allen comments as well. Just thought it was funny.

 
Alright, trying to be positive:

-Allen has elite physical tools. He has the highest bust potential IMO, but also probably the highest ceiling thanks to those tools

-His offense at Wyoming really did limit him. Way too many passing concepts that were one route designs that forced his receivers to win one-on-one (something they rarely did) and required incredible accuracy. Not many playcalls that created mismatches or defensive holes. His level of difficulty probably really was higher than the other QBs due to poor offensive scheme and wide receiver talent.

-He does have some footwork/lower body issues and they almost certainly contributed to his erratic accuracy. He often threw with his arm rather than involving his lower body. That stuff is among the most correctable for a QB with good coaching. It just takes time.

-The tweets are bad, but I do think the Bills are probably right and that they're not a reflection of who he is now. He seems to really love football and I think he really will put in the work.

-I trust Brian Daboll a WHOLE lot more than Rick Dennison. I think Daboll is a guy that will actually tailor his offensive to a player's strengths (let's hope so because Allen couldn't be more different than the other QBs on the roster). I'm hopeful he is up to the task because a WHOLE lot of the future rests on Daboll's ability to develop Allen.

-The WR talent the Bills have currently (lol, what talent?) actually matches Allen fairly well. Guys that won't win deep, but can get separation or use their bodies to allow a QB to rocket balls in and let the WR make the catch.

One of the criticisms Greg Cosell had was that Allen seems a bit slow processing, "sees everything and sees nothing at the same time" and has problems throwing with anticipation because of it, or doesn't make throws at a that he should make.>>>>One technique I read that Louisville used with Jackson I absolutely LOVE and would love to see the Bills use as well. Louisville used virtual reality to run plays for Jackson to help him diagnose and speed up his processing. I think that's ingenious. You'll never totally replicate in-game conditions, but using VR in that manner seems like an amazing tool and way to gradually speed up the game speed as well as "repeat" plays to allow a QB to go back and see exactly what he missed. Frankly, I think Bean and McDermott are too Old School for something like that, but I hope against hope that they look into something like that for Allen.

https://twitter.com/gregcosell/status/985222896565055489?s=19

 
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Ksquared said:
I have been following the Allen draft possibilities for at least a month, mostly in the Cleveland thread.  Amazing how lazy everyone is about his accuracy and the group think/template that has been created.  Yes he does have some accuracy issues, but they are being way blown out of proportion.  His accuracy is more wild (when he missed, he really missed) than consistently terrible.  Listening to Phil Simms on NFL radio this week revealed that the Wyoming offense was not QB friendly either in scheme or personnel.  Phil logged each throw of the top 6 QBs from last year and said if Allen had the opportunity to throw the same number of WR screens that Mayfield did last year, his completion percentage would have been in the low 60s.  But the Wyoming offense pushed everything down field with no screens and very few slants.  That puts his accuracy issues in a little different light. 

In the end, each of these QBs had flaws and those that get the proper coaching to eliminate those flaws will be successful.

BTW, it was reported last night that Allen had deleted the tweets previously but someone had kept them on their phone since his HS days and released them to Yahoo late this week.
Click to expand...
Some of the accuracy problems also stem from very poor footwork, which should be fixable.

 
GroveDiesel said:
Alright, trying to be positive:

-Allen has elite physical tools. He has the highest bust potential IMO, but also probably the highest ceiling thanks to those tools

-His offense at Wyoming really did limit him. Way too many passing concepts that were one route designs that forced his receivers to win one-on-one (something they rarely did) and required incredible accuracy. Not many playcalls that created mismatches or defensive holes. His level of difficulty probably really was higher than the other QBs due to poor offensive scheme and wide receiver talent.

-He does have some footwork/lower body issues and they almost certainly contributed to his erratic accuracy. He often threw with his arm rather than involving his lower body. That stuff is among the most correctable for a QB with good coaching. It just takes time.

-The tweets are bad, but I do think the Bills are probably right and that they're not a reflection of who he is now. He seems to really love football and I think he really will put in the work.

-I trust Brian Daboll a WHOLE lot more than Rick Dennison. I think Daboll is a guy that will actually tailor his offensive to a player's strengths (let's hope so because Allen couldn't be more different than the other QBs on the roster). I'm hopeful he is up to the task because a WHOLE lot of the future rests on Daboll's ability to develop Allen.

-The WR talent the Bills have currently (lol, what talent?) actually matches Allen fairly well. Guys that won't win deep, but can get separation or use their bodies to allow a QB to rocket balls in and let the WR make the catch.
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And no picks from next year were given up.

 
Bunch of Chicken Little's in here. Going to bookmark this for later use...

Giving the guy grief over social media posts many years ago when he was just a kid without any concept of anything. Give the guy a break. We've all made mistakes in our youth due to immaturity.

Furthermore, yeah, he's raw and he may need some time, but he has amazing upside. 

The sky isn't falling. Allen will be fine. Guy has a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. I like that. We had a guy like that back in 2005 at 24... questionable mechanics, had to claw his way to get any college team to look at him. That chip turned out to be good fuel. Not saying this is apples to apples, just saying don't freak out until you see the guy play at this level! 

Yes, I think it was the wrong Josh personally... but I don't think this will be as terrible of a pick as everyone here seems to make it to be

Edmunds was an amazing pick. 

 
GroveDiesel said:
-He does have some footwork/lower body issues and they almost certainly contributed to his erratic accuracy. He often threw with his arm rather than involving his lower body. That stuff is among the most correctable for a QB with good coaching. It just takes time.
Click to expand...
This is the big one, I'm hearing it a TON with respect to this guy, and it's totally backwards.  In a good way (for Josh/Buffalo).

Josh looks like he was taught to throw by a pitching coach rather than a QB coach.  His throwing mechanics are a work of Da Vincian art, but that's something you only want to see 100% of the time if you're looking at a guy standing on the pitcher's mound.  At QB, you need to be able to effectively scale back your mechanics depending on the type and depth of the throw, and on the type of platform you're throwing from.

There are a couple reasons they have that old saw that, "It's hard to improve accuracy at this level."  They're very different reasons, and apply to different sorts of prospects.

First, there are guys who will always have trouble finding downfield windows against pro level defenses for mechanical reasons.  That's a deficiency in the mechanics of the full kinetic chain.  This is hard to "develop" because integrating full body mechanics at pro athletic speeds is a nearly impossible task as an adult.  It's like learning a language.  It's something that has to be built into you at a young age, or it simply can't be developed.  Too many moving parts for an adult brain to process and integrate.  Yet, you can get REALLY far as a college prospect with a combination of partial chains, reps, and feel.  But non-mechanical problems with downfield accuracy are instead about timing, and CAN be easily fixed with coaching and reps (if the prospect is intelligent and brings the right attitude, and the team provides the right learning situations/coaches).  The latter is Allen.  The former is irrelevant to him, because his kinetics are nailed.

The other reason accuracy is hard to develop is that most guys simply lack the kinetic potential to improve.  This can be a deficiency in natural athleticism, or lever length/size.  A Baker Mayfield has to find the time to set up and unwind his whole body to make throws Allen can make starting his chain at the waist.  Throws that Allen or Andrew Luck can make way T.F. downfield are simply impossibilities for some players.  That accuracy is practically impossible to improve, because the factors that go into improving it require a completely different physical makeup.  You can't teach the innate.

Allen's accuracy problems come from the opposite direction, and the opposite direction is VERY coachable.

Even throwing a simple dumpoff, he can't seem to segment down that full chain.  He's trying to hit a RB in the flat, and unwinds like Nolan Ryan from the waist, laying the shoulder completely into external rotation, and firing off a fastball when a father/son toss is called for.  Watch how far his arm lays back on a simple dumpoff compared to Baker...or Brady, or Montana, or whoever you think of as having good shortfield accuracy.  Mayfield is a MASTER of knowing how much of that full chain to scale down to, and meting out the right amount of force.  He routinely throws with just the slightest bit of core, coming mostly from the shoulder to create spiral spin and control, but with the feathery ease that allows the ball to placed precisely, and in a way that's easy to catch.  Mayfield's issue is that he's already scaling up to throwing full, maximal chains to hit intermediate stuff.  He can't scale up further, because he's got nowhere to go with his mechanics in that sense.  He'll continue to excel at dink and dunk stuff, but as his time to unwind diminishes in the pros, he's going to find tougher and tougher sledding making anything happen in small windows downfield.

Allen virtually never throws with a reduced kinetic chain.  He's clearly never been coached to...but it's not hard to develop.  The feel for it will be a work in progress, but it's incredibly teachable.  Everything difficult is already in his toolbox.  He's not one of those players for whom, "accuracy can't be taught."  The kind of accuracy he needs to build up is that kind that pro level coaching -- hell, ADEQUATE coaching -- for the first time in his life should handle.

The worries about his development, if there were going to be any, would be between the ears.  Does he have a good attitude?  Is he coachable?  Is he bright enough to "get it?"  I think he's a resounding yes on all fronts.  I don't think he'll ever be Marino, even though he's got that kind of arm talent, but the fixes he'd need to be Carson Palmer or something are well within his reach, and he's well built to acquire them, both mentally and mechanically.

I think Buffalo smashed it out of the park.  I'd take Allen a million times out of a million over Mayfield.

 
I do find it hilarious, or maybe :wall: , that McCarron just said a few weeks ago that to be a great QB doesn't require a big arm, it's all about accuracy and timing since a vast majority of plays are made in tight quarters in the short to medium range...and then the Bills trade up to take a QB with a huge arm, low accuracy and poor anticipation. :lmao:

AJ McCarron has to be  <_< :doh:

 
GroveDiesel said:
Alright, trying to be positive:

-Allen has elite physical tools. He has the highest bust potential IMO, but also probably the highest ceiling thanks to those tools

-His offense at Wyoming really did limit him. Way too many passing concepts that were one route designs that forced his receivers to win one-on-one (something they rarely did) and required incredible accuracy. Not many playcalls that created mismatches or defensive holes. His level of difficulty probably really was higher than the other QBs due to poor offensive scheme and wide receiver talent.

-He does have some footwork/lower body issues and they almost certainly contributed to his erratic accuracy. He often threw with his arm rather than involving his lower body. That stuff is among the most correctable for a QB with good coaching. It just takes time.

-The tweets are bad, but I do think the Bills are probably right and that they're not a reflection of who he is now. He seems to really love football and I think he really will put in the work.

-I trust Brian Daboll a WHOLE lot more than Rick Dennison. I think Daboll is a guy that will actually tailor his offensive to a player's strengths (let's hope so because Allen couldn't be more different than the other QBs on the roster). I'm hopeful he is up to the task because a WHOLE lot of the future rests on Daboll's ability to develop Allen.

-The WR talent the Bills have currently (lol, what talent?) actually matches Allen fairly well. Guys that won't win deep, but can get separation or use their bodies to allow a QB to rocket balls in and let the WR make the catch.

One of the criticisms Greg Cosell had was that Allen seems a bit slow processing, "sees everything and sees nothing at the same time" and has problems throwing with anticipation because of it, or doesn't make throws at a that he should make.>>>>One technique I read that Louisville used with Jackson I absolutely LOVE and would love to see the Bills use as well. Louisville used virtual reality to run plays for Jackson to help him diagnose and speed up his processing. I think that's ingenious. You'll never totally replicate in-game conditions, but using VR in that manner seems like an amazing tool and way to gradually speed up the game speed as well as "repeat" plays to allow a QB to go back and see exactly what he missed. Frankly, I think Bean and McDermott are too Old School for something like that, but I hope against hope that they look into something like that for Allen.

https://twitter.com/gregcosell/status/985222896565055489?s=19
Click to expand...
Very fair appraisal.  I agree accuracy and anticipation are Allen's two biggest hurdles.  And I hope Daboll is a good fundamentals coach because that is what Allen needs in my opinion.  Looking at Allen's past, I don't think he has had great coaching....when I found out he was from Firebaugh (tiny town somewhat near Fresno that you drive through when you are on I-5) I was not sure his high school was big enough to play 11 man football.  Had to go to a JC for a year and then two years at Wyoming.  So he is pretty raw. 

I really hope for Buffalo fans that he will be someone you can look at for 10+ years to lead your team.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
GroveDiesel said:
Man oh man, Beane just said that they didn't know about the Tweets before. How can you possibly have done the appropriate research on a potential franchise QB and not have had someone scour their social media feeds?! That's just inexcusable and incompetence in this day and age. Unreal.
Click to expand...
call me crazy, but i don't think a 16-year-old kid posting rap lyrics is a sign of 1. racism or 2. indicative of the guy's character in his 20s

it's somthing to attach to if you don't like the pick, as if the fact that he is a really boom/bust pick doesn't provide enough actual legitimate fodder

 
It seems like with both picks, Beane has showed that he values raw athletic talent over polish.

I don't really think Allen fits the current offensive personnel very well.  The O-Line has lost a bunch of pieces, Shady lives off the short screen game and the receiving corps are very weak without any true deep threats.  I guess this is moot if he's sitting a year.

The offense needs to build some sort of identity.  It still feels like they're throwing #### at the wall and trying to find out what sticks.

 
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