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A closer look at Ray Horton's defense (1 Viewer)

You're misreading me again.

You don't need 30 points to win. You need the ability to score 30 points to win. The Browns don't have the ability to score 30 points, so opposing offense know they don't need to rack up the points to win that given day. It may take 27, it may take 14, but rest assured if they score 30 they're golden. It isn't like playing the Packers, Saints, Patriots, roncos, etc. in which you don't feel comfortable even if you score in the 30's. Offensive approach changes accordingly and allows for more opportunities for the defense to make plays.

 
You're misreading me again.

You don't need 30 points to win. You need the ability to score 30 points to win. The Browns don't have the ability to score 30 points, so opposing offense know they don't need to rack up the points to win that given day. It may take 27, it may take 14, but rest assured if they score 30 they're golden. It isn't like playing the Packers, Saints, Patriots, roncos, etc. in which you don't feel comfortable even if you score in the 30's. Offensive approach changes accordingly and allows for more opportunities for the defense to make plays.
You don't get to make statements like a team needs the ability to score 30 points to win with some sort of implication that teams simply don't score thirty points do to some 'implied' choice to NOT score 30 points as though they can magically wave a magic wand and walla 30 points just becase THEY CHOSE TO SCORE THIRTY POINTS.

No. Un uh.

Last year at this time the Ravens and Niners were coming off seasons where they scored 23.8 pts per game for SF and 23.6 pts per game for BAL. Are you going to tell me YOU KNEW that San Francisco would reach the Super Bowl after replacing their starting QB with a second year kid who hadn't started an NFL game? Or are you going to tell me that YOU KNEW Joe Flacco would suddenly 'get it' and come on strong down the stretch as he did last year and would walk away not only the SB winner but would parlay that into the highest contract in NFL history (at least he held the title for a month till Aarron Rodgers renegotiated his contract)?

Newsflash.

The Browns likely aren't going to win the Super Bowl but they are likely going to win more games than they did last year and I'll be that in the games they win they score more than 20 points.

 
Really?

Wow.

Edit: am I that bad of a writer or is Bracie that bad of a reader?

 
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I have a hard time accepting the 20 points=win theory.

ARI scores over 20 points and:

Sept 18, 2011: @WAS, L 21-22

Oct 5, 2011: NYG, L 27-31

Oct 23, 2011: PIT, L 20-32

Oct 30, 2011: @BAL L 27-30

Nov 13, 2011, @ PHI W 21-17

Nov 27, 2011, @ STL W 23-20

Dec 11, 2011, SF W 21-19

Dec 18, 2011, CLE W 20-17

Jan 1, 2012, SEA W 23-20

So it seems to be a hard and fast RULE only the last 18 months of the Ray Horton era in ARI....

 
I have a hard time accepting the 20 points=win theory.

ARI scores over 20 points and:

Sept 18, 2011: @WAS, L 21-22

Oct 5, 2011: NYG, L 27-31

Oct 23, 2011: PIT, L 20-32

Oct 30, 2011: @BAL L 27-30

Nov 13, 2011, @ PHI W 21-17

Nov 27, 2011, @ STL W 23-20

Dec 11, 2011, SF W 21-19

Dec 18, 2011, CLE W 20-17

Jan 1, 2012, SEA W 23-20

So it seems to be a hard and fast RULE only the last 18 months of the Ray Horton era in ARI....
Well I believe Horton has a bit more in the mix at least in terms of pass rushers to work with right now than he had last year and last year the 20 point threshold was all that was required.

Browns GM Mike Lombardi touched on the plan of action that he wishes to see.

Score early and unleash pass rush.

From AFCN ESPN blog:

Cleveland Browns general manager Mike Lombardi recently spoke about the team's focus on building first-half leads.

"... if you can't get the lead ... early in the game, if you can't rush the passer, then you're going to have a hard time winning,"



Lombardi told The Plain Dealer. "One of the most critical statistics in football today is first-half point differential. The top five teams that lead at halftime ... typically are always going to be playoff-caliber type of teams."
That is the plan in a nutshell, get an early lead and then rush the passer.

 
Not picking a fight here but wouldn't 31 other GMs say exactly that?

It may not be up there with 'run the ball more' but it's pretty close to a cliché

 
Not picking a fight here but wouldn't 31 other GMs say exactly that?

It may not be up there with 'run the ball more' but it's pretty close to a cliché
Saw this saying recently and think it applies and is a good thought to share since I don't assume the worst.

"People will question the good things they hear about you but believe all the bad without a second thought."

I agree that what Lombardi said may sound trite but I shared that becuase I've noticed that the new front office has said things and then gone out and done exactly what they've said.

CEO Joe Banner hired Lombardi and Joe stated he felt that he knew how to build a team. Joe isn't shy, he stated an action plan to build the team. Banner stated a very direct and simple team building philosophy. He said you need a really good QB and offensive line and have a really good defensive line (front seven for 3-4 defense that the Browns run) before you can even compete.

They aren't assuming Weeden is 'really-good' QB and obviously in the draft they didn't think a 'really-good' QB was their so they moved onto to address the front seven both in free agency and the draft.

Banner stated the over-all team building philosophy and Lombardi stated a specific action plan.

No, its not earh shattering stuff but if Lombardi focuses on something then I think its significant.

Sounds trite but what these guys have said has been backed up by their actions.

Oh and for a comparision this is what was said by last year's defensive coordinator when he was asked about his defensive philosophy you can clearly see a difference between what last year's DC said and how Banner viewed the defense.

Browns defensive coordinator from last year, **** Jauron, explaining his defense said: "We'd love to be a balanced defense, so by that, I guess, generally you'd say some kind of middle-of-the-field open defense a third of the time, some kind of middle-of-the-field closed a third of the time and then some kind of pressure about a third of the time… "

This is what Joe Banner said about last year's defense: "I think we felt like the defense wasn't good enough to be very direct about it. … we wanted to have a more aggressive, attacking defense, because we want to bring in more aggressive-minded players, we want to be risk-takers, we want to be attacking, we want the other team to be on the defensive. It doesn't mean it was wrong, but that wasn't the scheme we were running…"

Now keep in mind the above statements from last year and what Banner thought of last year's defense.

What did Banner do after making those statements? He hired Rob Chudzinski as his head coach and Rob said this about what he expected from his defense. "… attacking defense ….We're going to focus on critical situuations in games. We're talking third down. We're talking about red zone, two-minute, four-minute because those things are the things games come down to.

We're going to be an attacking style defense" We want to get after the quarterback and affect the quarterback's play. That's the number one thing you want to do as a defense. — it will tie in more with the coordinator that I hire. .."

Chudzinski then backed up his words by hiring Ray Horton as his defensive coordinator. This is what Chud said after hiring Horton as his defensive coordinator. "His pressure packages are outstanding. He brings 'em from all over the place, different guys, but he's still sound in his schemes."

Following the chronology this is what Banner said at the Indiapolis Combine in February before free agency and ofcourse before the draft.

Question to Browns CEO Joe Banner in February: How do you assess your … pass rush?

"… I think as we switch to the 3-4 and as I said beforre even if we stayed in the 4-3, the defensive front [seven] needs some additions" ….

Going back to you saying we still need players on the defensive front to compete with the best in the league, do you mean the front seven or the defensive line?

"Front seven."

"… getting pressure on the opposing team's quarterbacck. If you can do that, you have a chance to win any game against any team. When you can't do that, you're at a risk in any game. "¦ if the other quarterback has a lot of time and he's able to pass the ball you're in trouble no matter what else is going on. When we .. consistently pressure the other team's quarterback, then we'll be in the mix. When we get to that point we'll be in every game every single week."

When Banner was hired he made benign general statements about his overall football philosophy but was more direct as he followed that up a few months later when asked about last year's defense by saying last year's defense wasn't good enough and he was gong to address it. One of the three key ingredients of his overall team building philosophy was to have a very good front seven and since he didn't think last year's defense was very good he went out to fix the front seven. In free agency he acquired, OLB/DE Paul Kruger and OLB/DE Quentin Groves, and then used the 6th pick in the draft on OLB/DE Barkevious Mingo.

I have noticed that what Banner says, he does. I think Lombardi is the guy who comes up with action plans so what seems like a general-benign statement by Lombardi probably has a bit more meaning to-it.

Certainly last year's defensive wishy-washy philosophy was not as 'aggressive' and 'attack' oreiented and Banner went to work with his head coach hire and the defensive coordinator hire and his free agency dollars and his top pick in the draft to address it after he made what appeared very common statements.

Considering these guys have backed up what they've said by action, I've learned to pay attention to what seems like benign front-office-speak because, so-far, these guys have backed it up with their actions.

 
so looking at the measureables of D Washington and JMJ I can't help but see how similar they are. What are the odds that JMJ is used in the Washington "joker" role?

 
so looking at the measureables of D Washington and JMJ I can't help but see how similar they are. What are the odds that JMJ is used in the Washington "joker" role?
No.

The coaches have four guys who got playing time and starts last year to choose from, JMJ, LJ Fort, Tank Cader, and Craig Robertson. Right now Craig Robertson is listed as the starter but I believe they will rotate guys in to fit the situation and game plan.

Robertson proved to be a very good cover LB last year but he's listed at only 229 lbs, the build of a large SS.

Early reports from OTAs have stated SS TJ Ward is being moved up more in the box so I'm trying to picture how having TJ playing UP and a guy like Craig Robertson possibly dropping and covering could create confusion especially if other LBers are rushing.

The scheme is reportedly complicated, Horton has said as much.

I haven't figured out the basics of this scheme and I'm not sure who will start next to D'Qwell Jackson yet. Right now Craig Roberson is listed as the starter. I don't think James Michael Johnson is slated to be the JOKER since that role would likely go to someone like, D'Qwell Jackson or Barkevious Mingo or even the guy who already knows the system like Quentin Groves who came with Ray from Arizona, at least initially until Mingo or someone else gets up to speed.

Horton might even rotate the role of the JOKER between, Sheard, Jackson, Mingo, Kruger, Groves, to keep the offense guessing.

Too early to tell. The only thing we've heard is TJ Ward is being moved up in the box and Craig Roberston is listed atop the depth chart for the other inside LB spot. Not sure what that means I am speculating about how Horton might use a guy who flashed solid cover skills like Robertson considering TJ is being moved up in the box. It makes sense to me that a cover LB would hold value if Horton can move up his SS and fool the offense but it seems that would only be situational and he may have plans to use other guys at ILB based on what skills they bring to the table.

I didn't see enough of a healthy JMJ last year to get a good read on his strengths.

Lots of moving parts and I think Horton is evaluating his personnel and how he can best use them but I don't think James Michael Johnson is slated for starting let alone the JOKER role since that role begs an uber-ahtletic type like a Daryl Washington in Arizona or the Browns top pick Barkevious Mingo.

I can see even see Horton using a rotation of different guys playing JOKER until someone outplays everyone in that role and it seems Mingo was taken high in the draft for a specific purpose. I just think he will need a year to adapt to the position change and to put on a few lbs so Ray might have to use a rotation for the role this year or it could be the plan. I don't know but I haven't heard of JMJ starting let alone playing JOKER.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
BuckeyeChaos said:
so looking at the measureables of D Washington and JMJ I can't help but see how similar they are. What are the odds that JMJ is used in the Washington "joker" role?
No.

The coaches have four guys who got playing time and starts last year to choose from, JMJ, LJ Fort, Tank Cader, and Craig Robertson. Right now Craig Robertson is listed as the starter but I believe they will rotate guys in to fit the situation and game plan.

Robertson proved to be a very good cover LB last year but he's listed at only 229 lbs, the build of a large SS.

Early reports from OTAs have stated SS TJ Ward is being moved up more in the box so I'm trying to picture how having TJ playing UP and a guy like Craig Robertson possibly dropping and covering could create confusion especially if other LBers are rushing.

The scheme is reportedly complicated, Horton has said as much.

I haven't figured out the basics of this scheme and I'm not sure who will start next to D'Qwell Jackson yet. Right now Craig Roberson is listed as the starter. I don't think James Michael Johnson is slated to be the JOKER since that role would likely go to someone like, D'Qwell Jackson or Barkevious Mingo or even the guy who already knows the system like Quentin Groves who came with Ray from Arizona, at least initially until Mingo or someone else gets up to speed.

Horton might even rotate the role of the JOKER between, Sheard, Jackson, Mingo, Kruger, Groves, to keep the offense guessing.

Too early to tell. The only thing we've heard is TJ Ward is being moved up in the box and Craig Roberston is listed atop the depth chart for the other inside LB spot. Not sure what that means I am speculating about how Horton might use a guy who flashed solid cover skills like Robertson considering TJ is being moved up in the box. It makes sense to me that a cover LB would hold value if Horton can move up his SS and fool the offense but it seems that would only be situational and he may have plans to use other guys at ILB based on what skills they bring to the table.

I didn't see enough of a healthy JMJ last year to get a good read on his strengths.

Lots of moving parts and I think Horton is evaluating his personnel and how he can best use them but I don't think James Michael Johnson is slated for starting let alone the JOKER role since that role begs an uber-ahtletic type like a Daryl Washington in Arizona or the Browns top pick Barkevious Mingo.

I can see even see Horton using a rotation of different guys playing JOKER until someone outplays everyone in that role and it seems Mingo was taken high in the draft for a specific purpose. I just think he will need a year to adapt to the position change and to put on a few lbs so Ray might have to use a rotation for the role this year or it could be the plan. I don't know but I haven't heard of JMJ starting let alone playing JOKER.
the bolded above I have a slight issue with. you are saying Washington is uber athletic but I started the post by saying that the combine numbers for both washington and JMJ were nearly identical. In fact a 37' jump from JMJ might be an indication that he more athletic or explosive than the 31' of Washington.

all the other stuff holds a lot of merit and should be considered

 
I'll refer to my first reply in this thread where I mentioned Ross Tucker's football podcast where he and guest Greg Cossell went over every first round draft pick and Cossell is the one who said that Mingo would probably fill the role of the JOKER in Horton's defensive scheme.

Listen to Ross Tucker's Football Podcast with guest Greg Cossell right after the draft when the two went over every first round selection.

Cossell provides keen insight into the Mingo pick by the Browns. Tucker was waaaaaaay off from well before the draft when he kept saying the Browns HAD to take CB Dee Milliner so he starts off going in the wrong direction off into the woods where Tucker felt the selection of Mingo meant that the Browns would be trading OLB/DE Jabaal Sheard before Cossell smacked him about the head and neck with the truth. Tucker still doesn't quite get what the Browns are doing and it appears that others are also lost on what direction the team is headed defensively but this podcast is a great place to start to understand how Ray Horton will utilize OLB/DE Barkevious Mingo.

Tucker begins to whine about the Browns already having Paul Kruger and Jabaal Sheard at OLB and he also horks his pimp of CB Dee Milliner and then Tucker attempts to speculate about Sheard being traded but Cossell strongly cuts him off and says NO!

Cossell says Mingo will fill the role of the 'JOKER' in Horton's defense where Ray will move him all around. He sums up Barkevious' skill set by saying; "He's an explosive straight-line speed-guy."

Go to a 'lil after' the 4:00 minute mark of the audio to hear what they say about the Browns pick, they only do the first round so that portion is less than one minute long. The entire podcat is a good listen so if you have the time then give it a listen, good stuff.
http://www.sportsusa...d-draft-review/

And when I mentioned JMJ's size and physical dimensions/Combine numbers were on par with Patrick Willis I was doing so because Mac said he lacked the size to start inside but I showed he had basically the same ht. wt. as Willis and then he switched to say he lacked the strength to start inside and I showed he had basically the same Combine numbers but I wasn't suggesting JMJ was equal to Pat Willis as a player nor would I suggest JMJ is equal to Washington as a player.

Per Daryl Washington being uber-athletic. Probably not uber-athletic or he would have been drafted muc higher,like Barkevious Mingo, but I would assume he caught Horton's eye to fill the crucial role of JOKER due to him having the best over-all skills of his linebacking group last year.

Here's another name flying well under the radar who might become the starting free safety.

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/story/Night-and-Day-for-Browns-Gipson?blockID=904881#.UZ6iAC3TI9g.twitter

BEREA—There is an often used saying about the difference a year makes and nothing is truer than for second-year safety Tashaun Gipson.

The undrafted free agent from Wyoming was just trying to catch the eye of former Browns defensive coordinator **** Jauron and coach Pat Shurmur at this time in 2012.

ast forward 12 months and Gipson is running with the first team under a new regime in defensive coordinator Ray Horton and Rob Chudzinski....
Go to the link for the rest of the story.

Won't hype the kid at all, just giving a heads-up because he might win the starting job and I'd imagine not many have heard anything about the kid.

Its an open competition with at least two other guys in the mix but the Browns didn't go out and sign a veteran free agent FS so someone is going to win the starting job so their may be some interest.

EDIT to add another story on Tashaun Gibson:

http://blogs.clevelandbrowns.com/2013/05/23/5-bigg est-takeaways-from-otas-2/?campaign=soc_cc__201305 24_8247024



The Browns might very well be in better shape at safety than some observers believed before the start of offseason workouts. One reason is the performance of Tashaun Gipson, who made the roster last year as an undrafted free agent. Gipson is making a strong case to become the starter opposite T.J. Ward by covering plenty of ground and making plays. Gipson seems to consistently find in himself in the right place at the right time, and, as he demonstrated last year, he has a true knack for being around the ball. Another reason for the optimism at safety is the play of Johnson Bademosi, who was moved from cornerback to join the competition with Gipson. A third reason is the expectation that sixth-round draft pick Jamoris will make a full recovery from a ruptured Achilles his suffered in his final season at Notre Dame last year and be on the field in time for training camp in late July.

 
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Bracie Smathers said:
BuckeyeChaos said:
so looking at the measureables of D Washington and JMJ I can't help but see how similar they are. What are the odds that JMJ is used in the Washington "joker" role?
No.

The coaches have four guys who got playing time and starts last year to choose from, JMJ, LJ Fort, Tank Cader, and Craig Robertson. Right now Craig Robertson is listed as the starter but I believe they will rotate guys in to fit the situation and game plan.

Robertson proved to be a very good cover LB last year but he's listed at only 229 lbs, the build of a large SS.

Early reports from OTAs have stated SS TJ Ward is being moved up more in the box so I'm trying to picture how having TJ playing UP and a guy like Craig Robertson possibly dropping and covering could create confusion especially if other LBers are rushing.

The scheme is reportedly complicated, Horton has said as much.

I haven't figured out the basics of this scheme and I'm not sure who will start next to D'Qwell Jackson yet. Right now Craig Roberson is listed as the starter. I don't think James Michael Johnson is slated to be the JOKER since that role would likely go to someone like, D'Qwell Jackson or Barkevious Mingo or even the guy who already knows the system like Quentin Groves who came with Ray from Arizona, at least initially until Mingo or someone else gets up to speed.

Horton might even rotate the role of the JOKER between, Sheard, Jackson, Mingo, Kruger, Groves, to keep the offense guessing.

Too early to tell. The only thing we've heard is TJ Ward is being moved up in the box and Craig Roberston is listed atop the depth chart for the other inside LB spot. Not sure what that means I am speculating about how Horton might use a guy who flashed solid cover skills like Robertson considering TJ is being moved up in the box. It makes sense to me that a cover LB would hold value if Horton can move up his SS and fool the offense but it seems that would only be situational and he may have plans to use other guys at ILB based on what skills they bring to the table.

I didn't see enough of a healthy JMJ last year to get a good read on his strengths.

Lots of moving parts and I think Horton is evaluating his personnel and how he can best use them but I don't think James Michael Johnson is slated for starting let alone the JOKER role since that role begs an uber-ahtletic type like a Daryl Washington in Arizona or the Browns top pick Barkevious Mingo.

I can see even see Horton using a rotation of different guys playing JOKER until someone outplays everyone in that role and it seems Mingo was taken high in the draft for a specific purpose. I just think he will need a year to adapt to the position change and to put on a few lbs so Ray might have to use a rotation for the role this year or it could be the plan. I don't know but I haven't heard of JMJ starting let alone playing JOKER.
the bolded above I have a slight issue with. you are saying Washington is uber athletic but I started the post by saying that the combine numbers for both washington and JMJ were nearly identical. In fact a 37' jump from JMJ might be an indication that he more athletic or explosive than the 31' of Washington.

all the other stuff holds a lot of merit and should be considered
Comparing JMJ to any of those guys based on what he is capable of in t shirt and shorts in February says nothing about what he will do in the 4th quarter in November on Sunday's. If he projected closer to either of them he would not have been a 4th round pick last year.

 
Just a small nudge of a head's up on a guy that many seem to be diminishing and that is OLB/DE Jabaal Sheard.

Have heard zero negative reports and on the other side, have only heard positive things concerning Sheard's transition from a down lineman to an UP OLB. I think its going to work out better than many are assuming.

He got switched from the left side of the defense to the right side where he struggled as a rookie BUT he's playing UP and it seems to me that he'll be lined up WIDE ALA a wide-nine rush stance far outside the tackle box where he'll have the angle so I don't think the switch from the left to the right will hurt him at all and it seems he's picking up things quickly.

I think he's prototypical in terms of size and speed and strength and he's proven himself to be more than a capable pass rusher and now he's got the starting role AND now he's got a guy on the other side, Kruger, who can rush the passer in addition to someone like Barkevious Mingo chipping in as well. So he's finally got backside pressure, something he has not had in his first two seasons. I find that to be an incredible positive in his favor.

Add in Ray Horton and his ability to utilize talent and his emphasis on having an attacking-aggrressive scheme and I believe those who are overlooking Sheard should not underestimate Jabaal.

Mingo is an undersized rookie making a difficult transition from a down lineman AND adjusting to the NFL. I think he'll have a limited role suited to his talents of pass rushing. I do not think he takes Sheard's job and I don't agree with many who seem to be looking past Sheard.

 
Just a small nudge of a head's up on a guy that many seem to be diminishing and that is OLB/DE Jabaal Sheard.

Have heard zero negative reports and on the other side, have only heard positive things concerning Sheard's transition from a down lineman to an UP OLB. I think its going to work out better than many are assuming.

He got switched from the left side of the defense to the right side where he struggled as a rookie BUT he's playing UP and it seems to me that he'll be lined up WIDE ALA a wide-nine rush stance far outside the tackle box where he'll have the angle so I don't think the switch from the left to the right will hurt him at all and it seems he's picking up things quickly.

I think he's prototypical in terms of size and speed and strength and he's proven himself to be more than a capable pass rusher and now he's got the starting role AND now he's got a guy on the other side, Kruger, who can rush the passer in addition to someone like Barkevious Mingo chipping in as well. So he's finally got backside pressure, something he has not had in his first two seasons. I find that to be an incredible positive in his favor.

Add in Ray Horton and his ability to utilize talent and his emphasis on having an attacking-aggrressive scheme and I believe those who are overlooking Sheard should not underestimate Jabaal.

Mingo is an undersized rookie making a difficult transition from a down lineman AND adjusting to the NFL. I think he'll have a limited role suited to his talents of pass rushing. I do not think he takes Sheard's job and I don't agree with many who seem to be looking past Sheard.
If he is indeed playing on the same side that he did as a rookie, then I am even more excited. His rookie year, he had 1.5 more sacks, 4 more Forced fumbles, and 1 more fumble recovery. At least stats-wise, he did much better his rookie season than last year.

 
If he is indeed playing on the same side that he did as a rookie, then I am even more excited. His rookie year, he had 1.5 more sacks, 4 more Forced fumbles, and 1 more fumble recovery. At least stats-wise, he did much better his rookie season than last year.
Sheard began his rookie season as the RDE in the 4-3 but he didn't feel comfortable because in college he played his entire career on the left side.

The coaches moved him to the left side and that is when he began collecting sacks.

Now, this year, he's making a switch from a down 4-3 LDE to a standing up 3-4 OLB and he is playing back on the right side.

Many weren't sure about him being able to make the switch from a down 4-3 DE to an up 3-4 OLB but he's looked good so-far but an added uncertaintly was having Sheard move back to the right side from his more comfortable left side but I think he'll be even more effective as a stand up pass rusher because I think he'll be lined up wider, ALA a wide-nine stance, well outside the tackle box where he'll have an angle and other times he'll have a few steps to excellerate at the OT from his stand-up stance.

Also factor in that he's not a rookie and he's developed moves and timing and has proven himself as a down pass rusher and he'll also be lining up on the LOS as a true 4-3 DE at times too.

I just have a positive gut feeling he's being under valued or over looked by many and I have the polar opposite view.

I think he's going to suprise many people this year.

Just my humble opinion.

 
Figured this was worth posting here based on previous discussions


From rotoworld:

The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that Browns LB James-Michael Johnson is "nowhere" in the team's plans and is likely to be cut.
Snap reaction after DC Ray Horton's hiring was that JMJ was the "top bet" to start at inside linebacker next to D'Qwell Jackson, but that appears to be far from the case. If the season were to start today, Craig Robertson would man that position. Johnson, the No. 120 overall pick last year, was viewed as a starter by the old regime, but he's "lost" in the new 3-4 defense. A two-down thumper, he'll be a nice addition to some team if he's indeed on the outs in Cleveland.
 
Heard this interview of OLB/DE Paul Kruger.

He is aked tons of questions but the thing I found interesting is his take on rookie OLB/DE Barkevious Mingo.

The guys interviewing him said that they kept hearing about Mingo batting down passes and being disruptive in OTAs so they asked Kruger if what they had been hearing was true and if Mingo was legit or not. Listen to what Kruger says, not only the words but his delivery. He says in a dry, even keeled, matter of fact way. "He's legit alright." Kruger than goes onto to say the thing I found very interesting. He said Mingo not only is disruptive as a pass rusher or batting down passes but he said the thing that really sticks out about Mingo is how disruptive he is when he drops and covers.

I hadn't even really considered Barkevious Mingo as a cover LB. He is super fast and athletic so it makes sense that he has the sort of ability to be very effective in coverage. I know that MLB Craig Roberston proved himself to be a highly effective cover LB last season, he was expectional reading routes and making deep drops almost like a big safety.

Complete speculation on my part but if Mingo can also be an effective cover LB and if he also flashes as a pass rusher and/or batting down passes at the LOS then having that sort of talent to cover from your linebackers turns into a coaching weapon with a DC like Ray Horton. Having two LBers with cover ability would be a trick in the bag that Ray Horton could tap into.

Opposing offensive coordinators would constantly be guessing whether or not Mingo was dropping and covering or coming forward as a pass rusher. I am not sure how many pass rushing OLB/DEs have the sort of speed, and from what we're hearing, cover ability of Barkevious Mingo. I've been discounting Mingo having a big impact as a pass rusher his rookie season but he also is as effective as a cover LB as we are hearing he could see the feild more than I originally thought.

It caught my attention so I thought I'd pass it along.

Here is a link to the interview with Browns OLB/DE Paul Kruger. His comments on Mingo come in the early part of the interview.

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/06/06/paul-kruger-says-mingos-gonna-make-a-name-for-himself-really-quick/

Paul Kruger Says Mingo’s “Gonna Make a Name for Himself Really Quick” Listen to Bull & Fox weekdays 2-7pm on 92.3 The FanBrowns defensive end/linebacker Paul Kruger joined Bull & Fox to talk about his first taste of minicamp with the Browns, skipping the Ravens’ visit to the White House, facing the Browns’ offense and Brandon Weeden in practice, whether there’s a true competition at quarterback, if there is worry with Trent Richarson missing time, if it’s a setback for Richardson to miss time, how good this Browns offensive line is, the biggest offensive line trash-talker in the NFL, chippiness in practice, the biggest difference between Cleveland and Baltimore, sharing his Super Bowl experienceshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png' alt='a>'> with younger players and more.

 
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Hehe, went out and got me TJ Ward as a throw-in on the basis of this thread and against my earlier stance. Hope he returns to his rookie form or better!

 
Heard this interview of OLB/DE Paul Kruger.

He is aked tons of questions but the thing I found interesting is his take on rookie OLB/DE Barkevious Mingo.

The guys interviewing him said that they kept hearing about Mingo batting down passes and being disruptive in OTAs so they asked Kruger if what they had been hearing was true and if Mingo was legit or not. Listen to what Kruger says, not only the words but his delivery. He says in a dry, even keeled, matter of fact way. "He's legit alright." Kruger than goes onto to say the thing I found very interesting. He said Mingo not only is disruptive as a pass rusher or batting down passes but he said the thing that really sticks out about Mingo is how disruptive he is when he drops and covers.

I hadn't even really considered Barkevious Mingo as a cover LB. He is super fast and athletic so it makes sense that he has the sort of ability to be very effective in coverage. I know that MLB Craig Roberston proved himself to be a highly effective cover LB last season, he was expectional reading routes and making deep drops almost like a big safety.

Complete speculation on my part but if Mingo can also be an effective cover LB and if he also flashes as a pass rusher and/or batting down passes at the LOS then having that sort of talent to cover from your linebackers turns into a coaching weapon with a DC like Ray Horton. Having two LBers with cover ability would be a trick in the bag that Ray Horton could tap into.

Opposing offensive coordinators would constantly be guessing whether or not Mingo was dropping and covering or coming forward as a pass rusher. I am not sure how many pass rushing OLB/DEs have the sort of speed, and from what we're hearing, cover ability of Barkevious Mingo. I've been discounting Mingo having a big impact as a pass rusher his rookie season but he also is as effective as a cover LB as we are hearing he could see the feild more than I originally thought.

It caught my attention so I thought I'd pass it along.

Here is a link to the interview with Browns OLB/DE Paul Kruger. His comments on Mingo come in the early part of the interview.

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/06/06/paul-kruger-says-mingos-gonna-make-a-name-for-himself-really-quick/

Paul Kruger Says Mingo’s “Gonna Make a Name for Himself Really Quick” Listen to Bull & Fox weekdays 2-7pm on 92.3 The FanBrowns defensive end/linebacker Paul Kruger joined Bull & Fox to talk about his first taste of minicamp with the Browns, skipping the Ravens’ visit to the White House, facing the Browns’ offense and Brandon Weeden in practice, whether there’s a true competition at quarterback, if there is worry with Trent Richarson missing time, if it’s a setback for Richardson to miss time, how good this Browns offensive line is, the biggest offensive line trash-talker in the NFL, chippiness in practice, the biggest difference between Cleveland and Baltimore, sharing his Super Bowl experienceshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png' alt='a>'> with younger players and more.
I think Craig Robertson is a nice sleeper here. He is a very very good coverage guy. Likely to stick in subpackages, in fact, that is all he did last year was play nickel and dime, didn't play running downs. Now, if he is also playing running downs, per report, one would have to think that he is going to play A LOT, and as we know with opportunity, comes tackles. I imagine, he can be had on the cheap in many leagues....

 
I think Craig Robertson is a nice sleeper here. He is a very very good coverage guy. Likely to stick in subpackages, in fact, that is all he did last year was play nickel and dime, didn't play running downs. Now, if he is also playing running downs, per report, one would have to think that he is going to play A LOT, and as we know with opportunity, comes tackles. I imagine, he can be had on the cheap in many leagues....
Is James-Michael-Johnson off the breakout radar at this point?

 
I think Craig Robertson is a nice sleeper here. He is a very very good coverage guy. Likely to stick in subpackages, in fact, that is all he did last year was play nickel and dime, didn't play running downs. Now, if he is also playing running downs, per report, one would have to think that he is going to play A LOT, and as we know with opportunity, comes tackles. I imagine, he can be had on the cheap in many leagues....
Is James-Michael-Johnson off the breakout radar at this point?
I don't know if you saw post 66 but the reports haven't been good on JMJ.

 
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000213942/article/nfls-most-improved-position-groups

NFL's most improved position groups

Cleveland Browns pass rushersEdge rusher Paul Kruger is expected to be the focal point of new coordinator Ray Horton's 3-4 defense. He'll play opposite Jabaal Sheard, who led the team with seven sacks last year. The Browns envision No. 6 overall pick Barkevious Mingo following the Aldon Smith/Bruce Irvin plan, easing him in as a situational pass rusher.

Desmond Bryant's five-year, $34 million contract raised a few eyebrows, but he has a relentless motor as evidenced by the fourth-most quarterback pressures of any defensive tackle in the NFL last season.

Other candidates: Chiefs quarterbacks, Panthers' front seven, Saints secondary, Packers running backs, Falcons running backs, Eagles tight ends, Seahawks receiving corps, Colts offensive line, Jaguars offensive line, Bills receiving corps, Raiders secondary.

 
Yesterday from the Shutdown Corner, a team overview but had some key takes on the Browns defense.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/shutdown-countdown-cleveland-browns-still-rebuilding-defense-could-143042061.html

Shutdown Countdown: Cleveland Browns are still rebuilding, but the defense could be stellar... Is the roster better, worse, or about the same? Much better on defense. The Browns made four significant additions on that side of the ball — LSU pass-rusher Barkevious Mingo from the draft, then defensive end Desmond Bryant and linebackers Paul Kruger and Quentin Groves through free agency. Their front seven that was already fairly stacked with underrated talents like Jabaal Sheard, Ahtyba Rubin, D'Qwell Jackson, and Phil Taylor. And the addition of Horton, who made the Arizona Cardinals' defense one of the NFL's most multiple and effective over the last few years, will only make things better.

Best offseason acquisition: Kruger. The former Baltimore Ravens defender can rush the passer, but he's also a good run-stopper, especially in sub packages.

... Player you might not have heard of yet, but will soon: Jabaal Sheard was selected in the second round of the 2011 draft out of Pitt, and he's put up some decent sack numbers with 15.5 in two seasons. But there are some indicators that he could soon become one of the NFL's best edge defenders. Sheard led the team in quarterback hurries with 16 last year, per Football Outsiders' game-charting, and his run defense stats are among the best in the league for his position. In Horton's defense, Sheard will play some outside linebacker and then move inside on passing downs, giving him more opportunities to get after the quarterback.

 
Early reports state OLB/DE Jabaal Sheard is looking good and getting lots of 'ups' from the coaching staff.

Rookie OLB/DE Barkevious Mingo is working with the second-team and he is tearing it up but again, he's matched up against second stringers and the veteran starters (Jabaal Sheard and Paul Kruger) seem solidly entrenched at this point.

If the starters seem set but Mingo continues to shine then the obvious question is how might Horton utilize Barkevious Mingo?

Here's a recent article that goes into detail on how Mingo could be used, only the teaser. Go to the link since it has photos to explain the concepts.

Very in-depth article with lots of pics to help explain different blitzes that match up with Mingo's skills. It does seem Barkevious will see the field on pressure sub packages but I also feel he's got the speed and athletic skills to drop and cover but check out the article if you are wondering how Browns defensive coordinator Ray Horton might use Barkevious Mingo.

http://www.draftbrowns.com/2013/07/how-will-the-browns-maximize-barkevious-mingos-unique-talents/

How Will the Browns Maximize Barkevious Mingo’s Unique Skills? July 25th, 2013
 
Dude, they don't even have pads on yet.
The pads are on.

For those interested here is an update on how Barkevious Mingo is looking.

http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x1592808950/Browns-coach-Chudzinski-steals-the-show-at-Sunday-training-camp

... The rookie of the day was first-round pick Barkevious Mingo. He looked like a No. 6 overall pick.

After Mingo’s impressive practice, inside linebacker James-Michael Johnson walked by, slapped the rookie on the rump, and grinned as if to say, “You’re a rock star, kid.”

From Sunday's National Football Post. The 2013 rookies who they feel can make imediate impacts.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Which-firstround-defensive-players-will-contribute-most-this-year.html

... Cleveland took LSU’s Barkevious Mingo with the sixth pick. At this time, Mingo is a much more advanced player than Ansah and I see him being an every down player right from the get go. I’d be shocked if he isn’t in the starting lineup opening day. Mingo can be a future Pro Bowl-type player

Read more: http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x1592808950/Browns-coach-Chudzinski-steals-the-show-at-Sunday-training-camp#ixzz2aSX8NfBN

 
Mingo won't start over Kruger or Sheard.

All 3 will be on the field together at times though. Horton will find a way.
Correct. Problem will be getting the defense to the third and long with the lead situations this defense is designed to eat up. This may be one of the worst run defenses in the league right now. A menacing pass defense is neutralized if they are constantly in third and two and playing from behind.
 
Mingo won't start over Kruger or Sheard.

All 3 will be on the field together at times though. Horton will find a way.
I keep hearing good things about Sheard, he's giving Joe T all he can handle with his pass rush and he has looked surprisingly solid in coverage and excels on crossing patterns and Kruger is also giving the tackles all they can handle with his pass rush.

Also Sheard was interviewed on Browns Daily and he said he was playing at 270 lbs, the same weight as Kruger so the OLBers for the Browns are pretty big, both 6'4 and 270, the size of a typical 4-3 DE. A far cray from last year when both starting OLBers went down, Chris Gocong and Scott Fujita and Cleveland was starting Kaluka Maiava (5'11 226 lbs) and rookie Craig Robertson (6'1 229 lbs) on the outside as 4-3 OLBers. Neither Robertson (1) or Maiava (2) provided much pass rush.

Per Mingo, he won't start. Ray Horton has stated matter-of-factly that the other guys are better right now. Remember Horton basically runs the Pittsburgh defense which is incredibly complicated and typically rookies don't start in Pittsburgh for at least a year and don't seem to excel until they have stated for a year so I wouldn't expect any rookies to start this year, at least not at the beginning of the season but they should see action in sub packages if they show enough promise and it appears that Mingo is flashing and impressing in camp.

Peter King‏@SI_PeterKing7h

Best rookies I've seen: 1 Cle OLB Barkevious Mingo, 2 Pit RB Le'Veon Bell, 3 Sea RB Christine Michael, 4 Buf QB EJ Manuel.


EDIT to add a tibit on the complexities of the new systems being installed on both sides of the ball according to a report from NFL.com's Jason LaCanfora

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000224437/article/brandon-weedens-cleveland-browns-on-verge-of-turnaround
… it was intriguing to hear that much of the focus, when it comes to new talent, is on intelligence. The

Brownshttp://forums.footballguys.com/teams/clevelandbrowns/profile?team=CLE want smart players. Why? "The thing is, if a guy doesn't know what to do, you can't put him on the field," Lombardi told me. "As talented as any player can be, he's gotta know what to do, how to play football." Browns players must be able to understand the complex systems run by both coordinators. In addition, the team wants to eliminate surprises. Prepare and prepare, and do what they can to be ready. A tall task, but the pieces are in place to rebuild quickly.
So even though young guys like Mingo and CB Leon McFadden come in with the talent to start they probably won't be starting due to the complexities of the new defensive system being installed by Ray Horton but its likely they both with find roles in sub packages.

 
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Interesting tidbit from Dawgs By Nature who interviewed Mike Tanier of Football Outsiders website who pointed out some interesting stats concerning the Browns defense from last year compared to stats of Ray Horton's Arizona defense in terms of rushing the passer.

The most interesting statistic compares the Browns applying, or lack-thereof, 'pressure' from last year to what we might expect from new DC Ray Horton's blitz/pressure scheme especially considering the investment of the pass rushing OLBers/DEs and additions to the D-Line within Horton's system.

Last year the Browns only blitzed 16.7% of the time, second lowest blitz percent in the league, but the Cardinals under Ray Horton blitzed 43% of the time (over a 200% increase more than Cleveland's defense did last season).

Tanier said that the sheer amount of resources Cleveland invested in the position indicates they felt it was a personell problem, something I wholeheartedly agree with as I pointed out above that last year's OLBers in the 4-3 scheme were injury replacements and both were small compared to this year's 3-4 OLBers Jabaal Sheard and Paul Kruger. Add last year's 4-3 OLBers failed to produce much pass rush.

2012 OLBers for the Browns

- Kaluka Maiava 5'11 226 lbs (1 sack)

- Craig Robertson 6'1 229 lbs 92 sacks)

2013 projected starting OLBers for the Browns

- Paul Kruger 6'4 284 lbs (9 sacks regular season and 4 postseason)

- Jabaal Sheard 6'3 270 lbs (7 sacks)

This year the outside linebackers are significantly bigger and they bring in proven pass rush skill that neither Maiava nor Robertson have. The investment to acquire Kruger and of the sixth pick in the draft on Barkevious Mingo and the addtion of Quenton Groves in free agencty clearly show the team felt that their was a personnel issue at OLB that needed addressing. The additon of Ray Horton shows a desire to impliment his aggressive/blitz scheme to apply pressure on opposing QBs so the bottom-line stats are interesting to mull over.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/8/5/4592590/talking-cleveland-browns-with-football-outsiders-part-2-pass-rush-in

... DBN: "The Browns were awful at getting to the quarterback when sending a big blitz; 11% qb hurries vs 31% league average, on those plays. Is that putrid number indicative of poor angles, scheme, or an inability of defensive backs to pick up coverage?"

Mike: "I did not watch much of the 2012 Browns defense because they have a new coordinator, Paul Kruger, Barkevious Mingo, and so many other new faces this year that it did not seem that relevant. Looking at their blitz personnel from a year ago, I am not sure what they could expect from guys like Craig Robertson and Kaluka Maiava. The sheer amount of investment they made in pass rushers this offseason suggests that the team considered it a personnel problem."



DBN: "Do you think Paul Kruger was a flash in the pan or is he the real deal? He had a phenomenal playoff run, but can he be someone who generates that kind of pressure over the course of a 16-game season?"

Mike: "I loved Kruger coming out of college as a high intensity/high motor player, but he had so many freak injuries during his college career that it was hard to gauge how great his upside was. The Ravens are very patient when developing defensive talent, and there are few better environments for learning the technical aspects of playing defense.

I think the Browns overpaid for Kruger, thinking that he is a J.J. Watt clone, when he is really a 8-10 sack-per-season defender who is also a good disruptor against the run and is useful as a chase player. Horton is exceptional at scheming for a player like Kruger, which may improve his production."

DBN: "Regarding the Defensive Front Seven section in your Almanac: it's listed that Cleveland only brought pass pressure on 16.7% of pass plays (31st in NFL) in 2012. With the additions to the front-seven (Kruger, Mingo, Bryant, etc), obviously it's assumed that number will go up, but what is a likely increase in percentage that you see for next year?"

Mike: "Horton's Cardinals rushed five or more defenders on just under 43% of pass plays, and I think you will see a number like that. You are going to see a lot of five man rushes, a lot of zone blitzes, and stuff we sometimes associate with the Steelers, like seven defenders just walking around the line (with no clear gap responsibilities) before the snap."
The only player in the front-seven who seems undersized is Craig Robertson but the more I have looked into him the more I like him.

Last year Robertson came out of nowhere to earn the starting SSLB position and was the second leading tackler on the team (83). He flashed solid cover ability and the more I look at his tackle numbers he was good as a run defender. He wasn't much of a blitz threat but as the stats show the team was second from the bottom in the entire league in attempting big-blitzes but he still came away with 2 sacks. If the team blitzes twice as much as they did last year he could wind up with 4 sacks from the inside LB position which is a respectable number. Also if he comes up with similiar tackle numbers and is as solid as he looked last year in coverage he would be producing solid starting NFL numbers,

The rules preventing hitting in camp will likely impact all NFL defenses the first game or two where I'm assuming that we will see missed or sloppy tackling till the 'fits' tighten up but I am eager to see this defense in real action at top speed.

 

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