Restricted
Footballguy
are you willing to admit you were wrong? If he wins games? If he statistically out preforms what you had him at - pass percentage or other? If gets Denver to the playoffs starting this weekend? What do you need to see?
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A Question for the Tebow Haters (1 Viewer)
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SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Technically speaking, you shouldn't expect much out of a late 1st round QB. Jason Campbell is kind of the standard there. The best NFL QBs are either top 1st rounders, or afterthoughts in the draft. Not that you can't get a Drew Brees or Brett Favre outside of that scope, but it's rare. You either know exactly what you're getting or no one knows what they're getting.
Now to match his hype, he'd have to win 16 Super Bowls in a row.
Now to match his hype, he'd have to win 16 Super Bowls in a row.
A quarterback is like a box of chocolates . . .
FavreCo
Footballguy
As a card carrying member of the Tebow haters club, when he beats Miami.
No really, when he actually shows passing skills. Without a stellar D, a running, no passing ability QB can't take a team far. This guy can beat turds like Miami but will not be able to hang with a team like NE, GB, NO. He can't put up the points.
He's like David Garrard. He will do enough to keep a gig and bad enough to never give them a chance to compete for a SuperBowl.
No really, when he actually shows passing skills. Without a stellar D, a running, no passing ability QB can't take a team far. This guy can beat turds like Miami but will not be able to hang with a team like NE, GB, NO. He can't put up the points.
He's like David Garrard. He will do enough to keep a gig and bad enough to never give them a chance to compete for a SuperBowl.
massraider
Footballguy
I need to see people that have the temerity to doubt him stop being called Haters. You lose any and all credibility when you dismiss anyone that dares question Tebow as a Hater. You sound like a fanboy with his fingers in his ears, chanting "LALALALASLALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALALALALALAA....." I am a doubter, and I need to see him make the throws that winning QBs all seem to be able to make consistently. The 15-yard out. The seam. The fade. I do not doubt his intangibles. And the team perks up when he enters the game, no doubt. But at some point, winning QBs need to win games with their arm. Two-minute drill, zipping passes into tight spots, putting the ball on a rope 40 yards across the field, to a tippy-toe-ing WR who then steps out of bounds, stopping the clock. When i see that, not only will I stop doubting him, but as a Raider fan, I will be scared ####less.
Warrior
Footballguy
VaTerp
Footballguy
I disagree with this.Just looking at today's QBs you have guys like Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Matt Schaub, Josh Freeman, Joe Flacco. Some of the all time greats like Marino, Montana, Fouts were not top 1st rounders or afterthoughts.Draft picks hit and miss at the top of the draft all the way to UFA. To say that Campbell is the standard, you shouldnt expect much of any QB not taken at the top of the draft, and that you're basically a consensus top pick or an afterthought is a big overgeneralization.
Shutout
Footballguy
I would think the criteria should be the same as with any NFL starting QB. He has to lead the team to wins and make them a better team. It can come quickly or it can be slower if there is a certain sign of progressive improvement, but it must happen in some fashion.
What CAN'T happen is he can't go the next ten games, all running around and everything and the Broncos go 2-8. If that happens, then what is really the difference between a QB that threw the ball everywhere and didn't win vs. a QB that runs some and passes some and doesn't win? Not much difference there except in terms of fantasy football.
I would call him a success if he consistently gets wins by any means. That seems unlikely, so I think I will be looking for a vast improvement in completion percentange and a solid number in pass yards per attempt and ball control (not turning it over by various means). If he does those 3 things, then I say there is hope and let's watch him play some more. But if he comes out there and "yeah, it looks exciting" but at the endo of the day he is missing his targets and turning the ball over 2-3 times a day and the Broncos are still losing, then I say it is time to look for a real QB.
What CAN'T happen is he can't go the next ten games, all running around and everything and the Broncos go 2-8. If that happens, then what is really the difference between a QB that threw the ball everywhere and didn't win vs. a QB that runs some and passes some and doesn't win? Not much difference there except in terms of fantasy football.
I would call him a success if he consistently gets wins by any means. That seems unlikely, so I think I will be looking for a vast improvement in completion percentange and a solid number in pass yards per attempt and ball control (not turning it over by various means). If he does those 3 things, then I say there is hope and let's watch him play some more. But if he comes out there and "yeah, it looks exciting" but at the endo of the day he is missing his targets and turning the ball over 2-3 times a day and the Broncos are still losing, then I say it is time to look for a real QB.
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VaTerp
Footballguy
I picked up Tebow to cover Rodgers bye and hope he plays great but isnt this a bit premature?Calling out "haters" and asking people to admit they were wrong when he hasnt really proven anything yet.You seem to be a little to close to TT to have a reasonable discussion.
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Restricted
Footballguy
I use hater because of what feels like hatred. The guy has a three game NFL portfolio that doesn't say loser anywhere in it and thought he earned the starting gig from it. At least the acknowledgement that he can manage a team and game and be a viable fantasy player. It feels Republican/Democrat and you're not allowed to have beliefs on both sides. If he starts stinking it up, I will be quick on the "he sucks" wagon. I give him 3 games to prove me right/wrong. Just wanted to hear what leash others were offering.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Crown him.
strong
Footballguy
saw him on jon stewart and kinda liked the kid. unfortunately, he has a very annoying fanbase. don't know why, but at some point "Are you a fan of Tim Tebow?" sadly became a litmus test for whether or not you were a d bag. he just became a magnet for my least favorite type of people.
it was the sports fan's equivalent of "Is Donnie Darko your favorite movie?"
so, i'll admit i was wrong the moment The TeBois stop screaming and throwing their fanboi panties at him long enough to make it possible to like and enjoy Tebow's redeeming qualities. he works hard, keeps his nose clean, has a sense of humor about himself.
it was the sports fan's equivalent of "Is Donnie Darko your favorite movie?"
so, i'll admit i was wrong the moment The TeBois stop screaming and throwing their fanboi panties at him long enough to make it possible to like and enjoy Tebow's redeeming qualities. he works hard, keeps his nose clean, has a sense of humor about himself.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Total of Roy Williams's first 3 games in the NFL: 17, 277, 4
And we all know how he's right on pace to destroy every WR record on the books.
And we all know how he's right on pace to destroy every WR record on the books.
dontknowaboutme
Footballguy
I picked up this guy in 4 leagues, but obviously the hype is ridiculous. As people have said, he hasn't looked great throwing, not even close. But he is fun to watch (who doesn't like to roster people they enjoy watching), can run, and has upside if he somehow learned to throw over the bye week (joking obviously). One would think that part of the problem is that he has had quite a few people work on his mechanics, after awhile that has to create some conflicts. To extrapolate the last three weeks of last season over this entire season is irresponsible. Hopefully he explodes.
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EBF
Footballguy
Isn't it a bit early for this? The way I see it, Denver has nothing to lose by playing Tebow. If he succeeds, great. He can be their future at QB. If he fails, great. They weren't making the playoffs anyway and maybe they can get a high enough draft pick to nab Luck or one of the top second tier options like Griffin or Jones. It's a win-win proposition, whereas sticking with Orton was guaranteed mediocrity.
I'm not really a Tebow hater, but I don't think he has a high probability of success either. He played in a gimmicky college offense surrounded by great athletes. I think his "upside" has been exaggerated by his running skills. He was a very good athlete for a college QB, but in NFL terms he is nothing special from a size/speed standpoint. This is not Mike Vick, Cam Newton, or even Vince Young. He will not be a consistently dangerous threat on the ground at this level.
So he's going to live or die based on his passing skills. He was a pretty productive passer in college. That's cause for optimism. What would concern me is his inexperience with a pro style offense, the negative reports about his play in training camp, and his dodgy mechanics. I don't really know what to expect from him. Players can surprise you, for better or worse. Maybe the best parallel for Tebow is Kordell Stewart, another scrappy running QB with maddeningly inconsistent passing ability. We won't really know until Tebow plays a significant amount of games.
I'm not really a Tebow hater, but I don't think he has a high probability of success either. He played in a gimmicky college offense surrounded by great athletes. I think his "upside" has been exaggerated by his running skills. He was a very good athlete for a college QB, but in NFL terms he is nothing special from a size/speed standpoint. This is not Mike Vick, Cam Newton, or even Vince Young. He will not be a consistently dangerous threat on the ground at this level.
So he's going to live or die based on his passing skills. He was a pretty productive passer in college. That's cause for optimism. What would concern me is his inexperience with a pro style offense, the negative reports about his play in training camp, and his dodgy mechanics. I don't really know what to expect from him. Players can surprise you, for better or worse. Maybe the best parallel for Tebow is Kordell Stewart, another scrappy running QB with maddeningly inconsistent passing ability. We won't really know until Tebow plays a significant amount of games.
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DoubleG
Footballguy
In what now?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
When he has a better record and better stats than Kyle Orton.
Clifford
Footballguy
Good thing they traded Lloyd, as the supporters have a built-in excuse if he fails.
FWIW, I don't think he will ever fix his mechanics, but I think he will win games and silence the critics. He will never be Peyton or Brady or Rodgers, but I think this kid has enough fight and desire to make it work with the skills he has. As hard as he has fought to get here, I don't think he relinquishes it anytime soon. If he does, it won't be for lack of effort or desire.
FWIW, I don't think he will ever fix his mechanics, but I think he will win games and silence the critics. He will never be Peyton or Brady or Rodgers, but I think this kid has enough fight and desire to make it work with the skills he has. As hard as he has fought to get here, I don't think he relinquishes it anytime soon. If he does, it won't be for lack of effort or desire.
glumpy
breeze
Can't believe it took 16 posts to get to here. I picked him up after realizing that he was the top fantasy scoring QB in my league when he played last year.The only thing I care about is how he does on my fantasy team.
Restricted
Footballguy
bump?
footballnerd
Footballguy
I'm still wondering how the Broncos D got so good all of a sudden. Time of possession?
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
wut?
sspunisher
Footballguy
My favorite thing about Tebow is that he single handedly sucked a good portion of the media circus out of Dallas. Have fun, Broncos fans haha.
The Future Champs
Footballguy
I hate Tebow b/c he's destroyed Decker's fantasy value, he's vulturing short yardage TDs from McGahee, and I didn't move quickly enough to add him to any of my teams. I don't care for the media and fan frenzy that surrounds him, but I don't blame him for any of that. In fact, I think he's handled the circus extremely well.
Is that acceptable on a fantasy football website?
Is that acceptable on a fantasy football website?
Chaka
Footballguy
That doesn't hurt but that also doesn't seem to be the case. I have not found a breakdown of game by game stats (and I'm not looking at all the box scores) but on the season Denver's ToP is 28:23 (27th in the NFL). Over their last three games it's 26:52 (28th in the league).Not sure how much we can trust that site however. Link
It is just possible that TT's intangibles have had a greater impact on the team than initially seems reasonable to suggest. For whatever reason they're clearly playing harder right now.
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Dizzy
Footballguy
Well first off I would like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ, my family, my boss, the mailman, James Leisenring, Kevin VanDam, Wolf Hofmann, Terry Bradshaw, and Hugh Hefner...Just because I don't WORSHIP him, does not mean that I hate him. He's improving as a QB, and kind of sucking it as a fantasy football QB. I just don't see the mind-blowing miracles that others do I guess. I'm a Steelers fan, and if they draw Denver in the post-season, I'm a happy camper.
shnikies
Footballguy
A decrease in points off of turnovers helps. The defense has given up 10 points off of Tebow turnovers in 7 1/2 games. The defense gave up 34 points off of Orton turnovers in 4 1/2 games. That's obviously just part of it.
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Chaka
Footballguy
WAT? He's been a monster in fantasy football. Top 10 overall (#6 in my league) since he became the starter.Well first off I would like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ, my family, my boss, the mailman, James Leisenring, Kevin VanDam, Wolf Hofmann, Terry Bradshaw, and Hugh Hefner...Just because I don't WORSHIP him, does not mean that I hate him. He's improving as a QB, and kind of sucking it as a fantasy football QB. I just don't see the mind-blowing miracles that others do I guess. I'm a Steelers fan, and if they draw Denver in the post-season, I'm a happy camper.
Dizzy
Footballguy
I played him while Vick's been out and he's borderline top-20 these past few weeks.WAT? He's been a monster in fantasy football. Top 10 overall (#6 in my league) since he became the starter.Well first off I would like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ, my family, my boss, the mailman, James Leisenring, Kevin VanDam, Wolf Hofmann, Terry Bradshaw, and Hugh Hefner...Just because I don't WORSHIP him, does not mean that I hate him. He's improving as a QB, and kind of sucking it as a fantasy football QB. I just don't see the mind-blowing miracles that others do I guess. I'm a Steelers fan, and if they draw Denver in the post-season, I'm a happy camper.
CravenM
Footballguy
People hate to be told that they're wrong, much less proven that they are wrong.
And people that rely on statistics to prove their belief, have no idea what to think when the statistics change or are presented with "contradictory" statistics.
The point of playing in a football game is to win the football game, by any means necessary. It's not to have huge amount of passing yards, bang supermodels, wear garish jewelry or show off your Italian sports car to the media.
If Tebow throws for 300 yards this weekend but has 2 INTs, he'll be ridiculed as careless.
I'm weary of the talking heads. Most of them are ex-jock meatheads who have never coached in their life nor managed a franchise. Most coaches know that the only thing that matters is results - period.
Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.
And people that rely on statistics to prove their belief, have no idea what to think when the statistics change or are presented with "contradictory" statistics.
The point of playing in a football game is to win the football game, by any means necessary. It's not to have huge amount of passing yards, bang supermodels, wear garish jewelry or show off your Italian sports car to the media.
If Tebow throws for 300 yards this weekend but has 2 INTs, he'll be ridiculed as careless.
I'm weary of the talking heads. Most of them are ex-jock meatheads who have never coached in their life nor managed a franchise. Most coaches know that the only thing that matters is results - period.
Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.
shnikies
Footballguy
13thI played him while Vick's been out and he's borderline top-20 these past few weeks.WAT? He's been a monster in fantasy football. Top 10 overall (#6 in my league) since he became the starter.Well first off I would like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ, my family, my boss, the mailman, James Leisenring, Kevin VanDam, Wolf Hofmann, Terry Bradshaw, and Hugh Hefner...Just because I don't WORSHIP him, does not mean that I hate him. He's improving as a QB, and kind of sucking it as a fantasy football QB. I just don't see the mind-blowing miracles that others do I guess. I'm a Steelers fan, and if they draw Denver in the post-season, I'm a happy camper.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I've got him between 8th and 10th by average for weeks 7-13 in my leagues.13thI played him while Vick's been out and he's borderline top-20 these past few weeks.WAT? He's been a monster in fantasy football. Top 10 overall (#6 in my league) since he became the starter.Well first off I would like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ, my family, my boss, the mailman, James Leisenring, Kevin VanDam, Wolf Hofmann, Terry Bradshaw, and Hugh Hefner...Just because I don't WORSHIP him, does not mean that I hate him. He's improving as a QB, and kind of sucking it as a fantasy football QB. I just don't see the mind-blowing miracles that others do I guess. I'm a Steelers fan, and if they draw Denver in the post-season, I'm a happy camper.
shnikies
Footballguy
He said borderline top 20 the last few weeks which I translated to two weeks but I guess "few" is three so 15th not 13th.I've got him between 8th and 10th by average for weeks 7-13 in my leagues.13thI played him while Vick's been out and he's borderline top-20 these past few weeks.WAT? He's been a monster in fantasy football. Top 10 overall (#6 in my league) since he became the starter.Well first off I would like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ, my family, my boss, the mailman, James Leisenring, Kevin VanDam, Wolf Hofmann, Terry Bradshaw, and Hugh Hefner...Just because I don't WORSHIP him, does not mean that I hate him. He's improving as a QB, and kind of sucking it as a fantasy football QB. I just don't see the mind-blowing miracles that others do I guess. I'm a Steelers fan, and if they draw Denver in the post-season, I'm a happy camper.
DesmondBishop
Footballguy
When they beat the Patriots.
glumpy
breeze
Brady, Brees, Rodgers don't have their own emoticon
glumpy
breeze
I think that's the most even handed rejection I've seen, actually. Don't agree with the Decker appraisal--have been really looking hard at picking him up myself because of the way Tebow relies on him but might never start him anyway. Don't have McGahee but actually thought he's doing better (?) I did pick Tebow up immediately after learning he'd be starting but only played him once. It's hard to gauge when he's going to hit or miss. At this point I've got him as a matchup play with Romo, and figure on playing him week 15. Love that scoring display vs the Vikings.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
I'd be willing to bet that Tim Tebow will never win a Super Bowl.
A decrease in turnovers also helps. Orton turned it over nine times, Tebow turned it over only three times.
TLEF316
Footballguy
I'm not necessarily saying he's going to "fail" (by this, I simply mean he'll stop winning like he is right now) eventually (although i THINK he will) but i still think its too early to judge. Remember a couple of years ago when the wildcat formation got huge. People were saying it was going to revolutionize the game and all that. It didn't happen overnight, but over the course of a season or so, teams learned how to scheme against it. Now its back to being an occasional gimmick play.
I think something similar will eventually happen to Tebow if he doesn't become a consistently better passer.
The only full Tebow game I've watched this year was the Jet game (As I am a jet fan). If a Jet DB doesn't whiff on a tackle on the broncos goal line (Tebow made a poor decision to throw a screen to Royal and the Jets DB just flat out missed), the Broncos take a safety and lose. Truth be told, Tebow was terrible that entire game until a couple of missed tackles and then one great play to run for the TD (Jets sent the house and missed and Tebow ran for the score)
He's winning games right now. Obviously nobody can dispute that. But I'm still not convinced. I think teams will adjust eventually.
So I guess the answer to "when will you admit you're wrong" is "I don't know".
I think something similar will eventually happen to Tebow if he doesn't become a consistently better passer.
The only full Tebow game I've watched this year was the Jet game (As I am a jet fan). If a Jet DB doesn't whiff on a tackle on the broncos goal line (Tebow made a poor decision to throw a screen to Royal and the Jets DB just flat out missed), the Broncos take a safety and lose. Truth be told, Tebow was terrible that entire game until a couple of missed tackles and then one great play to run for the TD (Jets sent the house and missed and Tebow ran for the score)
He's winning games right now. Obviously nobody can dispute that. But I'm still not convinced. I think teams will adjust eventually.
So I guess the answer to "when will you admit you're wrong" is "I don't know".
shader
Footballguy
I can't even imagine the Tebow hype if he won a super bowl. I saw Champ Bailey being interviewed by Jay Glazer last night on some wierd Fox talk show where Glazer sits in a recliner.
Anyway, Bailey said that people cry and lose their minds around Tebow. Glazer compared it to Elvis.
A super bowl ring and he might be the most recognizable athlete in the world since MJ.
Anyway, Bailey said that people cry and lose their minds around Tebow. Glazer compared it to Elvis.
A super bowl ring and he might be the most recognizable athlete in the world since MJ.
Perfect Tommy
Footballguy
Tebow is almost unique among football players in that there really are people who hate him. I find it beyond odd, approaching bizarre. Many of his detractors do not hate him. As a Tebow fan, I can only guess, but I would say his haters will hate him regardless of how well he does, while critics of his style of play will eventually come around to some degree if he can continue to be successful.
Reepicheep
Footballguy
Welp.
killrobotkill
Footballguy
QB9 in my league in terms of avg FP/game since becoming the starter, QB6 in net FP.13thI played him while Vick's been out and he's borderline top-20 these past few weeks.WAT? He's been a monster in fantasy football. Top 10 overall (#6 in my league) since he became the starter.Well first off I would like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ, my family, my boss, the mailman, James Leisenring, Kevin VanDam, Wolf Hofmann, Terry Bradshaw, and Hugh Hefner...Just because I don't WORSHIP him, does not mean that I hate him. He's improving as a QB, and kind of sucking it as a fantasy football QB. I just don't see the mind-blowing miracles that others do I guess. I'm a Steelers fan, and if they draw Denver in the post-season, I'm a happy camper.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Go back and read the names of the starting QB's on all the Super Bowl winning teams. You might change your mind.
Jagerbomber
Footballguy
I think the issue is that his haters are usually a lot louder than the people who simply have some issues with him.From my POV I think the whole issue with his throwing motion is overblown. So many QB's with great arm strength and mechanics have come and gone. What Tebow has you can't teach. My thing with Tebow is that he comes across so sanctimonious...I'm a person of faith but I just don't agree when people that are so in-your-face about it, regardless of their religion. I think he's cut back on that lot now that he's in the pros tho, versus his time in Florida, but it still irks me. Many other pros routinely thank God etc after games, but Tebow has been more vocal about that stuff off the field. I was far more offended when Stevie Johnson blamed God for dropping that TD pass last season, though.
Well, there's only so many QB's that have won a SB so this is kind of an unfair bet. There sure have been QB's that have won SB that are worse.
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