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A week later, I am still crushed. The perspective of a mixed-race marriage and a loss of trust (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Koya
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Sweet J
Footballguy
Koya
Footballguy
Or, judging by their responses and tone in this thread alone, perhaps they are not such good dudes after all.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
No idea how the conversation went.
I'm saying it isn't true that you can't be a godparent. The rules do say that, but technically, only one godparent is needed. Therefore, I've seen many time where non-Catholics are also allowed to be the other godparent.
Pipes
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Many of the Trump supporters should know what it was like during the last Administration when supporters of that Administration were not magnanimous. They again experienced this during the election cycle. Instead of vowing to do better themselves, if they got the chance, which they now have, they demonstrate that they learned nothing but a taste for vengeful ### for tat. At some point someone(s) are going to have to be the bigger person for this toxic cycle to die. Here is an opportunity. No matter how you read posts like the original here, why not take the opportunity to move beyond the childish to the productive?
Koya
Footballguy
Except Obama never said he was going to go take everyone's guns away. Again, let's have a fair and honest discussion if you want to bring up past events and history.
Trump HAS said he would single people out because of their religion, he HAS said he'd create a deportation force and build the way and he HAS appointed a (if not "the") leader of the white-nationalist movement as his key advisor.
In all fairness to Obama, while there was some justified concern of some curtailing of gun ownership by Obama, it was never even close to a pledge whereas Trump has outright said - and done - these things.
timschochet
Footballguy
I never did. I defended almost all of them, with very few exceptions, at every opportunity. I suggested continually that Trump supporters were either ignorant of his bigoted rhetoric or tolerant of his bigoted rhetoric but that very drew were actually supportive of his bigoted rhetoric.
There are a few exceptions to this: Eminence, Grandpa Rox, and one or two other Trump supporters here are actual bigots.
David Dodds
Administrator
Let me offer a counter-take regarding Trump and what he needed to do to win.
1. He had lost the media. The media was all-in against him. So he had to go full-counter. You know how you get a lot of Twitter followers. You post crazy stuff. You take those 140 characters and you blast out stuff that shocks and offends. It gets people talking about you (good and bad), but publicity is publicity. It was the perfect way to separate himself against a flock of other Republicans.
2. He is a star of a reality-TV show. What's his signature line, "You're Fired". Reality TV is popular when there is massive drama. Gary Bussey, Dennis Rodman...the crazier the better the ratings. The MSM media would cover his antics as they were in on the plan to get him to face Hillary (as one of the few people she polled well against). So he used this to his advantage to secure the GOP nomination.
3. To win the overall election, he could not just do an about-face and now be a nice-guy. He needed the crazies that bought into 1 and 2 above to press forward. His followers (some racist, sexist, etc) were doing a lot of the heavy lifting as he raced around the country giving big speech after big speech. In the end the media was in a full-out assault against him. Personally I think some of people's fears have been pushed hard on all of us from that bought off media with an agenda.
I have no idea what kind of President that Donald Trump will be. I definitely think the President-Elect has been way mellower though than the guy who needed to get lots of attention just in hopes of getting elected. I am not giving him a pass for the rhetoric (and no one else should either), but it's quite possible that a lot of it was schtick just to get elected.
Campaigning: We are gonna build a wall. 12 feet tall. It will be the best wall ever...
Now: We are going to tighten up the borders and look to deport the worst criminals that are here illegally
Campaigning: Repeal and Replace Obamacare
Now: We need to make some changes, but some of it makes sense.
1. He had lost the media. The media was all-in against him. So he had to go full-counter. You know how you get a lot of Twitter followers. You post crazy stuff. You take those 140 characters and you blast out stuff that shocks and offends. It gets people talking about you (good and bad), but publicity is publicity. It was the perfect way to separate himself against a flock of other Republicans.
2. He is a star of a reality-TV show. What's his signature line, "You're Fired". Reality TV is popular when there is massive drama. Gary Bussey, Dennis Rodman...the crazier the better the ratings. The MSM media would cover his antics as they were in on the plan to get him to face Hillary (as one of the few people she polled well against). So he used this to his advantage to secure the GOP nomination.
3. To win the overall election, he could not just do an about-face and now be a nice-guy. He needed the crazies that bought into 1 and 2 above to press forward. His followers (some racist, sexist, etc) were doing a lot of the heavy lifting as he raced around the country giving big speech after big speech. In the end the media was in a full-out assault against him. Personally I think some of people's fears have been pushed hard on all of us from that bought off media with an agenda.
I have no idea what kind of President that Donald Trump will be. I definitely think the President-Elect has been way mellower though than the guy who needed to get lots of attention just in hopes of getting elected. I am not giving him a pass for the rhetoric (and no one else should either), but it's quite possible that a lot of it was schtick just to get elected.
Campaigning: We are gonna build a wall. 12 feet tall. It will be the best wall ever...
Now: We are going to tighten up the borders and look to deport the worst criminals that are here illegally
Campaigning: Repeal and Replace Obamacare
Now: We need to make some changes, but some of it makes sense.
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Koya
Footballguy
Totally. Can't stand Clinton, for many of the reasons most people do. I just don't buy into the overhyped 30 year smear campaign's propaganda which people are drawn to like sheep - which has me in the odd position of seemingly always defending someone whom I don't like to begin with.
That said, I actually dislike her less now that I've looked into matters (though that's hardly a ringing endorsement), but also recognize she was an awful person for the DNC to anoint... err, nominate... as their candidate, especially in today's climate in which, the DNC and the "Party Elites" and echo chamber following are very much culpable.
timschochet
Footballguy
One other thing that needs to be said: it would have been far easier for liberals to call Trump a bigot and a fascist if they hadn't also used these terms to describe George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and so many other Republicans. I can't tell the number of conservatives I know who said to me, in response to my concerns about Trump, "Yeah but they say that about EVERY conservative." I include my own father and father in law.
Koya
Footballguy
I appreciate the thought out post, but when you are pointing to his bull#### lies as a POSITIVE, that says a lot.
"Trump may have PROMISED awful, damaging and crazy things... but now that he's going to be Pres, can't we just agree that he was lying about it all, and move on with life?"
And before the "typical campaign promise" line, these were not typical campaign promises, and in many ways were the very promises that got his base so energized.
David - serious question... what ever happened to #draintheswamp! Seriously? Are you and all those "tear down the DC establishment elites" going to just sit idly by, becoming complete hypocrites, as Trump names establishment DC insider one, after the other? Just from the other party? Priebus, the lobbyists, Bolton in light of Trump's "never supported going to war in Iraq" for goodness sake?
Will you and others stand up, vocally, as vocal as you were against Hillary, if Trump looks to seed his administration with lobbyists and other swamp creatures, and worse yet, then pursues policies that follow the same?
jhib
Footballguy
If it's something you both would like (as well as his wife), let him know that you can usually be the Godfather as long as the Godmother is Catholic.I don't think his wife is Jewish. My friend is Jewish and his wife is Catholic. He hinted that he wanted me to be the Godfather but then said I wasn't eligible because I wasn't Catholic.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Just because conservatives make a ridiculous argument doesn't mean we have to act like it's reasonable. Trump isn't like previous nominees.
chet
Footballguy
I knew what you meant but I was just trying to be difficult.No idea how the conversation went.
Obviously, I didn't push the issue as the veto came from his wife but I appreciate the insight.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think people are misunderstanding some of the Trump angst. As far as I can tell from within my east coast liberal bubble, at the moment it's more about confronting the fact that the country voted for him and what THAT gesture means and will mean than it is about how he will govern. The fact that people were willing to condone his bigotry (whether genuine or used for political gain), sexual assaults, rejection of civility and transparency during a national campaign to a degree we've never seen, and lack of basic understanding of issues and the role of government because of _____ is hard to deal with. Because its hard to fathom how you could fill in the blank with something more important than rejecting those things. Those are really bad things.
Fights about what will come over the next four years will take place when those things actually happen.
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Skoo
Footballguy
OP, as a fellow member of the tribe, I know exactly what you mean.
One thing I've learned is that when people aren't part of a minority, they have a very hard time empathizing with minorities on issues like this. I've heard people say things like "c'mon I was just joking around" repeatedly after someone makes a racist/bigoted comment.
Yeah, of course it's not a big deal to you, you're not the one being put down. But until you're on the other side of it, you have no idea how much or how little that comment may have effected someone.
"No, not all Trump supporters are racist. But at the very least they decided racism wasn't a dealbreaker. End of story."
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chet
Footballguy
This is exactly the strategy that my friend told me he was following. He heard it second hand from one of Trump's friends.
Sweet J
Footballguy
Dr Oadi
Footballguy
Heart felt teary eyed crap is still crap. You aren't helping people by patting them on the back and saying there there terrible Trump.
It is utter bull#### that people have allowed this much fear to be built up inside them.
Pathetic.
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Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Did the Left speak up as vocally against President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton as they did President Bush when the Obama Administration pursued interventionist foreign policies that were similar?
No. So why hold people on the other side of the political aisle to a higher standard than your side failed to live up to?
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Koya
Footballguy
Hey, the left has a lot of issues to deal with, including systemic and historical ugliness. And the hyperbole from both sides does no one any good.
That said, there was not nearly the same condemnation about Romney or Bush as there is Trump. Let's not be pollyanna and pretend it is. If someone really is going to say "well, they say this about ALL republicans" then they are using that, to a degree at least, as an excuse. A convenient one that Liberals play into, but an excuse none the less.
Honestly, I think the left's biggest lost opportunity was giving up the word Liberal and letting the right use it as a derogatory term, a slanderous term in fact. This was 10-15 years ago, with the rise of the Tea Party and all, but those who are Liberal needed to stand up and say it proudly. Like Kennedy, like those who fully believe in the power of big gov't and programs and saving society through the great society. That ideology is way left of me, but it's a legitimate vantage point, ESPECIALLY if it's what you actually believe.
To have totally lost control of the message of the very word that described them, in really a pretty cowardly (and pollyanna to go back there again) way really hurt the Dems, especially the further left. The fact that the Dems let that happen took away the very power of who and what they are, at root.
Jayrod
Footballguy
When voting for 1 of 2 (or 3) candidates, how do you determine who to vote for? I'm sure just about everyone uses a different criteria.
Some are single issue voters. Abortion is an issue that has a lot of people on the right locked in. You come out pro-life and there are a certain number of voters that will follow you no matter what. I believe there are probably some environmental people on the left that will vote for whoever is the most environmentally conscious no matter what.
Some people care about a specific ideology/platform. These people vote straight party ticket. They are registered, died in the wool, Dems or Repubs.
Some people sit in the middle and try to make a determination based on any number of criteria. Maybe they look at character, maybe they make checklists of each issue and let that lead them. Maybe they listen to the debates and vote for who they think won. Maybe they vote based on who will help their personal situation the most. And maybe they post solely on appearance.
A "dealbreaker" for people in an election sometimes is simple (like single issue or straight party voters), or very complex. Also, what level of racism are you talking about? Being racist, appearing to be racist, maybe being racist, hanging out with racist people...what exactly makes someone "racist"? Maybe friends with racist isn't a dealbreaker, but making a racist statement is. And maybe a vague comment that could be considered racist isn't a dealbreaker, but making racist jokes is.
Long post short; I'm sure most people would call racism a deal breaker, but we probably all have varying degrees of what level of racism makes it a deal breaker.
jhib
Footballguy
Now assume the friends are part of the 29% of Latino voters who went with Trump.
Okay, kind of being a wiseguy, but kind of serious. I'm assuming they're white, which also makes it easier to look at the racism angle and question their beliefs, but doesn't that number suggest there could be other legitimate rationale for their votes and give you reason to be charitable in assuming the best of your friends rather than the worst?
Okay, kind of being a wiseguy, but kind of serious. I'm assuming they're white, which also makes it easier to look at the racism angle and question their beliefs, but doesn't that number suggest there could be other legitimate rationale for their votes and give you reason to be charitable in assuming the best of your friends rather than the worst?
Sweet J
Footballguy
I'm in the same bubble as you are good buddy, as are most of my friends, I have to say I'm having a hard time with the hand wringing and the "can you believe that our America just did this?" plastered all over my Facebook wall. From people I really like.
And my response is: ummmm, yes, I can pretty easily believe it. Humans are effing animals. It's not a shocker. I don't know what to say other than: "huh."
chet
Footballguy
Liberal complaints lose their effectiveness when they're used for every candidate.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
I just don't think most racist people believe they are racist. At least that is all I can come up with after much thought.
Skoo
Footballguy
Sweet J
Footballguy
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
Rachel Maddow had a meltdown like this on election night, Chris Matthews was practically laughing at her telling her to calm down, that Trump isn't going to do this and that, stuff Maddow was freaking out about. It was funny seeing him being the voice of reason.
The Left just doesn't understand that this was a vote against politics as usual. It was a vote to change the political landscape and to wake the parties up. I hope this did it. I know Lefties who voted for Trump for that exact reason.
THE WORLD IS NOT GOING TO END
The Left just doesn't understand that this was a vote against politics as usual. It was a vote to change the political landscape and to wake the parties up. I hope this did it. I know Lefties who voted for Trump for that exact reason.
THE WORLD IS NOT GOING TO END
LittlePhatty
Footballguy
Koya - I'd suggest talking to your friends, ask them what political ideals were important to them during the election. Maybe wait a few months and calm down before doing so. Lack of communication is why our country appears so divided at the moment. The internet lets everyone live in a bubble if they want to. Don't make assumptions, just say "help me understand." You might find that the problems you had with their candidate also bothered them too, but they overlooked the bad stuff because they felt there were more important things (or maybe their internet echo-chamber convinced them the bad parts weren't true and were just a "liberal media conspiracy"). I think terrorism and the economy were the biggest voting issues, and on those issues I sincerely wish the new pres "good luck", he's gonna need it.
Anyway, speaking as a #NeverTrump guy myself, I'll say I've got your back, along with plenty of other people in this country, and we won't let those "worst case scenario" fears come true. I doubt the possibility of that stuff actually happening anyway, but we're going to ensure it won't. And if Trump turns out to be as big of a con man as I suspect, your Trump-voting friends might be right there by your side at a protest in a few years. His economic and health care policies stand do hurt the majority of his voters just as much as the rest of us.
Anyway, speaking as a #NeverTrump guy myself, I'll say I've got your back, along with plenty of other people in this country, and we won't let those "worst case scenario" fears come true. I doubt the possibility of that stuff actually happening anyway, but we're going to ensure it won't. And if Trump turns out to be as big of a con man as I suspect, your Trump-voting friends might be right there by your side at a protest in a few years. His economic and health care policies stand do hurt the majority of his voters just as much as the rest of us.
chet
Footballguy
This was many years ago so that ship has long since sailed. Thx for the suggestion though.
Skoo
Footballguy
To be fair, Obama and Clinton didn't start a decade-long trillion dollar war against the wrong country.
Not exactly comparing apples to apples here...
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
jhib
Footballguy
No problem. Thought that might have been the case, but wasn't sure.
The wife probably knew anyway, but just used it as the excuse to keep you out.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Agreed. What I'm saying is the degree matters. People are freaking out over Trump much more than past conservative candidates and officeholders.
chet
Footballguy
You're probably right because I don't recall them ever being that religious.No problem. Thought that might have been the case, but wasn't sure.
The wife probably knew anyway, but just used it as the excuse to keep you out.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Interesting thread. Was having a similar discussion with my brother and how he was pretty upset with the people that voted for Trump and that he as going have a hard time with them, supporting them, their businesses, friendships, whatever. I told him:
If you are going to allow someone's vote dictate your mood and outlook on life, then it's time to look at yourself and ask: "Do I really know the reasons of why they voted the way they did, and does it really matter. Because if you are going to let someone's vote dictate your mood and feelings toward someone, then how does it ever benefit us as a society to get anything done?"
We end up cocooning ourselves into little groups of like minded thinkers, reminding ourselves that "We" are right and "They" are wrong. People are made up of so many fabrics, but right now we are letting one or two of these fabrics bring down our country, our mood, our psyche, our identity.
And that's the sad part. I have plenty of friends - some I know their political leanings and some I don't. I do not care. Each of these relationships provide me with something I need, and I hope my side of it provides them with something they need. It's ok to disagree. America needs to remember that part of it.
To @Koya, I know this hurts. And do what you want. And if this is a deal breaker, then it is. But a friend for 30 years has given you a lot. And you have done the same for him.
If you are going to allow someone's vote dictate your mood and outlook on life, then it's time to look at yourself and ask: "Do I really know the reasons of why they voted the way they did, and does it really matter. Because if you are going to let someone's vote dictate your mood and feelings toward someone, then how does it ever benefit us as a society to get anything done?"
We end up cocooning ourselves into little groups of like minded thinkers, reminding ourselves that "We" are right and "They" are wrong. People are made up of so many fabrics, but right now we are letting one or two of these fabrics bring down our country, our mood, our psyche, our identity.
And that's the sad part. I have plenty of friends - some I know their political leanings and some I don't. I do not care. Each of these relationships provide me with something I need, and I hope my side of it provides them with something they need. It's ok to disagree. America needs to remember that part of it.
To @Koya, I know this hurts. And do what you want. And if this is a deal breaker, then it is. But a friend for 30 years has given you a lot. And you have done the same for him.
Koya
Footballguy
And to my specific post and the people I reference...
If you are raised in a community with limited diversity, generally lower-middle class white folk with a fairly limited world horizon (like literally, don't travel, homogenous communities, not much exposure to new/other ideas, cultures and people), I get it. Not only has the Dem party abandoned you to a degree (as or moreso in spirit than policy imo, but that's not the point, it happened), but you don't even come across those folks that may have received "more" of the attention from the Dems. That's a bitter pill to swallow, I get it. You can only be as informed as your life's experience allows.
But my friend, for example - dammit, he should know better. This is someone, and his wife, that spout the alt-right website stuff without - here come's that word - critically thinking about it. This is someone that should know a BS right wing propaganda machine just like I can tell one from the left (although granted, my father probably can't do the latter). His life experience is enough that there should, imho, be some recognition of how awful Trump is, and not only that, how full of absolute #### he is as well. There is no excuse for him buying into this nationalist, and now clearly a white-nationalist vision without any consideration for those who would be harmed in the process. And it's this last point which will be the hardest for me to excuse, and harder still to instill a feeling one day where I'd trust him to raise my kids again (because at this point I certainly won't, not with the judgement he's shown me, and that's just my personal opinion on the matter). If he can't think about what the vitriolic bigoted language and hateful antics that went on for the entire campaign would do to my children, who represent the very targets of those aggressions (verbal and otherwise), that says more about him than I realized, or maybe wanted to realize.
Maybe in retrospect I should not be surprised. When I recognize things he's done, said in the past. Certain comments or attitudes that I just brushed off as whatever, not worth getting into. Maybe it's that reality, me not seeing or, really, not standing up to the little #### in the past (you know, guys talking, being fresh, joking around or talking about ####) that has allowed this to strike me with such force. Dunno.
David Dodds
Administrator
Maybe Clinton smiled and appeared nice to people, but how do people really reconcile these things:
- She knew that Saudi and QATAR governments funded 9/11, yet she sold them massive weapons and took on huge donations from both. She also was willing to take campaign contributions from additional governments that were horrible abusers of equal rights.
- Her sloppiness with emails / protocols basically handed our worst enemies blueprints of what she would do if she were President.
Instead of tweeting some things that offended people, She actually did things put all of us in a lot of danger. People voted against Hillary in record numbers. Don't group all-Trump voters with a stereotype. Many voted to stop the Clintons from getting to the Whitehouse.
Those that feel as strongly as Koya should have done more to get like-minded people to vote for their candidate. 49.6% of the people did not vote. A ton of these non-voter are now rioting in the streets over a system that they chose to sit out.
- She knew that Saudi and QATAR governments funded 9/11, yet she sold them massive weapons and took on huge donations from both. She also was willing to take campaign contributions from additional governments that were horrible abusers of equal rights.
- Her sloppiness with emails / protocols basically handed our worst enemies blueprints of what she would do if she were President.
Instead of tweeting some things that offended people, She actually did things put all of us in a lot of danger. People voted against Hillary in record numbers. Don't group all-Trump voters with a stereotype. Many voted to stop the Clintons from getting to the Whitehouse.
Those that feel as strongly as Koya should have done more to get like-minded people to vote for their candidate. 49.6% of the people did not vote. A ton of these non-voter are now rioting in the streets over a system that they chose to sit out.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yup, that's another perspective I've heard. I think SNL made light of this, with all the white people reacting with shock at the revelation that America is willing to condone bigotry and stupidity and the black people basically saying "duh."
I'm not sure why it bothers you, though. People may be animals, but they're also idealistic, and it's hard to have that idealism smacked down so suddenly. The only irrational thing is reacting like this because he won, as if things would be different if a few thousand strategically located people had voted differently. All that would have done is let us keep up the illusion that we're better than we apparently are.
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jonessed
Footballguy
There is no way we are going through the next four years without at least a minor recession.
chet
Footballguy
How are you measuring the degree to which people are freaking out? I seem to recall a lot of angst after W was elected for a second term but maybe I'm wrong.
Koya
Footballguy
He will still be my friend. My more hard and fast comment is I doubt he'd ever be my children's godfather. He clearly has shown a lack of understanding, and more so appreciation, for what they face in this world. He's smart enough to know and care, and yet he supports a bigoted racist campaign none the less.
Not sure what other motivations are needed. He supported a bigoted racist campaign, that's fulfilling it's promise by naming Bannon, and my kids are going to be mixed race. It's not his vote that appauls me, it's the message and campaign he supports. It is, literally, harmful to the very wellbeing of my family in terms of atmosphere that has the recent jump in hate related crimes and incidents, and in terms of expected policy latter.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Yeah. Chet's argument strikes me as a fine argument the next time we attack a guy like Romney or even McCain or something (and I have a much lower opinion of McCain than most people). Politics tends to make people exaggerate an opponent's flaws so we make "binders full of women" cracks when we knew that however much we wanted to appoint Supreme Court justices MItt Romney would have made a competent president.
People have to understand that this is different. It's not just liberals who would have found it incomprehensible that the guy running Breitbart would get a senior White House conservatives a united government. That is objectively frightening.
