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Addai: Average RB, great situation! (1 Viewer)

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
I Tivoed the game and was watching some of the Colt offensive plays.

I came to the conclusion that with Manning, Wayne, Harrison and Clark spreading the field it does not matter who the

RB is as long as he is semi quick and can catch the ball..

I would go as far to say that Keith would put up as good as stats as Addai if he were the starter. Most of Addais runs he did not have contact until after 3-4-5 yards.

That being said I would expect pretty much the same numbers from Addai week in and week out this year, and barring injury I don`t see how Addai can`t put up top 3 numbers.

I will be very interested to see how Dominc Rhodes does with the Raiders, I will be very suprised if he comes close to what he did with the Colts.

 
I don't disagree that he's in a great situation, but I think people are underestimating his abilities. He may not be flashy, but has a very solid all-around game.

Let's not anoint Keith yet as a guy that can immediately replace Addai based on two or three carries.

 
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I Tivoed the game and was watching some of the Colt offensive plays.I came to the conclusion that with Manning, Wayne, Harrison and Clark spreading the field it does not matter who the RB is as long as he is semi quick and can catch the ball..I would go as far to say that Keith would put up as good as stats as Addai if he were the starter. Most of Addais runs he did not have contact until after 3-4-5 yards.That being said I would expect pretty much the same numbers from Addai week in and week out this year, and barring injury I don`t see how Addai can`t put up top 3 numbers.I will be very interested to see how Dominc Rhodes does with the Raiders, I will be very suprised if he comes close to what he did with the Colts.
:goodposting:
 
I Tivoed the game and was watching some of the Colt offensive plays.I came to the conclusion that with Manning, Wayne, Harrison and Clark spreading the field it does not matter who the RB is as long as he is semi quick and can catch the ball..I would go as far to say that Keith would put up as good as stats as Addai if he were the starter. Most of Addais runs he did not have contact until after 3-4-5 yards.That being said I would expect pretty much the same numbers from Addai week in and week out this year, and barring injury I don`t see how Addai can`t put up top 3 numbers.I will be very interested to see how Dominc Rhodes does with the Raiders, I will be very suprised if he comes close to what he did with the Colts.
:goodposting:
I forgot to add, If Addai does not learn to go down after he is stopped, he will not last the season. Watching some of the replays of his runs the Saints defense took some pretty good free shots at Addai after he was already tied up.
 
I Tivoed the game and was watching some of the Colt offensive plays.I came to the conclusion that with Manning, Wayne, Harrison and Clark spreading the field it does not matter who the RB is as long as he is semi quick and can catch the ball..I would go as far to say that Keith would put up as good as stats as Addai if he were the starter. Most of Addais runs he did not have contact until after 3-4-5 yards.That being said I would expect pretty much the same numbers from Addai week in and week out this year, and barring injury I don`t see how Addai can`t put up top 3 numbers.I will be very interested to see how Dominc Rhodes does with the Raiders, I will be very suprised if he comes close to what he did with the Colts.
:goodposting:
I forgot to add, If Addai does not learn to go down after he is stopped, he will not last the season. Watching some of the replays of his runs the Saints defense took some pretty good free shots at Addai after he was already tied up.
I agree with this.
 
So why was his average YPC so high at LSU?
Why was Ron Dayne's so high at Wisconsin?I'm not saying college statistics are meaningless, but I don't give them as much weight as to what you can do on the field. And this is coming from a Moneyball/sabermetrics fanatic.
 
Obviously Joseph Addai has a long, long way to go but I keep thinking Thurman Thomas when I see him play.

Of course Addai benefits from playing in the Colt offense but he's much, much better than an average RB. His best trait is falling forward on every play and he has the same ability to slide by traffic (especially near the end of plays) that Ahman Green has shown over the years.

 
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I Tivoed the game and was watching some of the Colt offensive plays.I came to the conclusion that with Manning, Wayne, Harrison and Clark spreading the field it does not matter who the RB is as long as he is semi quick and can catch the ball..I would go as far to say that Keith would put up as good as stats as Addai if he were the starter. Most of Addais runs he did not have contact until after 3-4-5 yards.That being said I would expect pretty much the same numbers from Addai week in and week out this year, and barring injury I don`t see how Addai can`t put up top 3 numbers.I will be very interested to see how Dominc Rhodes does with the Raiders, I will be very suprised if he comes close to what he did with the Colts.
Great posting... I was saying the same thing after the game... Addai may put up Edge like #s.... but he is not the talent that Edge was... not yet.
 
One question for all you gurus/haters. Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all. All it cares about is stats, and he will put up HUGE numbers.

 
I completely agree with Da Guru on this. Addai has some nice skills - in a literal sense, his skills are probably above-average, but they certainly aren't elite. As a 'Skins fan what I'd liken him to is Ladell Betts. Both can make decisive cuts and hit their holes hard, and will take what each play gives them. Both have enough burst to rip off 10+ and 20+ yard runs on occasion, and both catch well out of the backfield.

In neither instance, however, can the guy be relied upon to create his own opportunities when the rest of his offensive team can't create something for him. That's why people in Washington say Portis is definitely better, and it's why a young Edge was clearly better than Addai. That's the difference between merely being good, and being elite.

 
Why can't people just admit he's good. Hey - you just might have been wrong when you ranked him at the draft, after the draft, this year, etc.

Rhodes is an average RB, and the situation didn't make him look good. Why does the "situation" get credit for Addai then?

Maybe you should just admit you're wrong about Addai. The kid has real talent.

 
So why was his average YPC so high at LSU?
I am not saying he does not have talent. My feeling is when LT came into the league the Chargers were not a good team, yet he still excelled, put Larry Johnson of any NFL team and he will excel. I don`t think Addai is that type of player.I don`t think Addai could go into Pittsburgh and come close to Wille Parkers numbers. But the great thing is..he ended up in Indy.
 
One question for all you gurus/haters. Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all. All it cares about is stats, and he will put up HUGE numbers.
Uh, oh...he called us haters. Now I know I'm dealing with a Shark.And please provide a link to where any of us said he wasn't going to put up great numbers. That was the point of this thread, Skippy. He's an average or above average talent that's in such a great situation that he could be top 3.
 
Why can't people just admit he's good. Hey - you just might have been wrong when you ranked him at the draft, after the draft, this year, etc.Rhodes is an average RB, and the situation didn't make him look good. Why does the "situation" get credit for Addai then?Maybe you should just admit you're wrong about Addai. The kid has real talent.
I have Addai in two leagues..took him as early as fourth in one.
 
So why was his average YPC so high at LSU?
Why was Ron Dayne's so high at Wisconsin?I'm not saying college statistics are meaningless, but I don't give them as much weight as to what you can do on the field. And this is coming from a Moneyball/sabermetrics fanatic.
So why is Addai able to continue to put up a high YPC in the NFL? :goodposting:
Seriously, we really, really need the :strawman: smiley.Nobody in this thread is saying Addai sucks. Nobody is saying Addai=Dayne. We're saying he's an average/slightly above average talent in a great situation.Why is he putting up so high of YPC in the NFL? Read the OP's take on it. That's my take.Back off the cute smileys and try to understand what we're saying.
 
One question for all you gurus/haters. Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all. All it cares about is stats, and he will put up HUGE numbers.
Uh, oh...he called us haters. Now I know I'm dealing with a Shark.And please provide a link to where any of us said he wasn't going to put up great numbers. That was the point of this thread, Skippy. He's an average or above average talent that's in such a great situation that he could be top 3.
Skippy? Yeah, that oozes sharkdom-did I just make a word? :goodposting: No the point of the thread is to run down Addai as "just a guy in a good situation" which is BS.
 
One question for all you gurus/haters. Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all. All it cares about is stats, and he will put up HUGE numbers.
Uh, oh...he called us haters. Now I know I'm dealing with a Shark.And please provide a link to where any of us said he wasn't going to put up great numbers. That was the point of this thread, Skippy. He's an average or above average talent that's in such a great situation that he could be top 3.
Just do a search and look at all the offseason threads spouting this same nonsense. Addai sucks, he was only good because Rhodes was there, he can't carry it 15 times a game, yada yada yada.
 
I agree. There were a few carries that I thight that a better back could have taken to the house.

I was really impressed with that Ugoh guy. First NFL game and he held his own and then some against a pro-bowler.

 
Why can't people just admit he's good. Hey - you just might have been wrong when you ranked him at the draft, after the draft, this year, etc.Rhodes is an average RB, and the situation didn't make him look good. Why does the "situation" get credit for Addai then?Maybe you should just admit you're wrong about Addai. The kid has real talent.
Addai > RhodesI think everyone can agree with that. That doesnt necessarily mean Addai is a great RB. Anyway, like I said above I dont care either way. Just glad I have him.
 
I was very impressed with Addai. I thought he showed a great combination of vision, shiftiness and power. Is he helped by being in Indy. Sure, but I think his talent set is enough to center an offense around him sans HOF talent at QB & WR.

 
I will be very interested to see how Dominc Rhodes does with the Raiders, I will be very suprised if he comes close to what he did with the Colts.
Rhodes' stats last year:187-641-5 rushing (3.4 YPC), 36-251-0 receiving

He did very well filling in for Edge in 2001 and in the Super Bowl last year, but I think many are overestimating how well he did last year sharing with Addai.

 
No the point of the thread is to run down Addai as "just a guy in a good situation" which is BS.
Why are you saying "no" to my rehashing the point of this thread? We've both nailed it.You think it's BS. Great. But, you're running around in such circles in this thread. You've said:1. "Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all."2. "Addai as "just a guy in a good situation" which is BS."Pick one. Are you arguing that good statistics are just good stats regardless of talent level (which is agreeing in part with us), or are you arguing that Addai is an uber-elite back?I'm not saying you're wrong either way. Just please pick one so we can discuss it.
 
So why was his average YPC so high at LSU?
Why was Ron Dayne's so high at Wisconsin?I'm not saying college statistics are meaningless, but I don't give them as much weight as to what you can do on the field. And this is coming from a Moneyball/sabermetrics fanatic.
So why is Addai able to continue to put up a high YPC in the NFL? :rolleyes:
Seriously, we really, really need the :strawman: smiley.Nobody in this thread is saying Addai sucks. Nobody is saying Addai=Dayne. We're saying he's an average/slightly above average talent in a great situation.Why is he putting up so high of YPC in the NFL? Read the OP's take on it. That's my take.Back off the cute smileys and try to understand what we're saying.
I understand what you're saying, I also understand you're incorrect. If anything, being in Indy limits RBs. Their OL is built to pass block, NOT run block. Running is not the first option, and they go away from it pretty quickly. Addai is the 4th or 5th opion on any given play, and he still put up huge numbers in limited opps.This is not at all like an RB in Denver, which is a system that legitimately makes RBs better than their talent.
 
One question for all you gurus/haters. Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all. All it cares about is stats, and he will put up HUGE numbers.
Uh, oh...he called us haters. Now I know I'm dealing with a Shark.And please provide a link to where any of us said he wasn't going to put up great numbers. That was the point of this thread, Skippy. He's an average or above average talent that's in such a great situation that he could be top 3.
Just do a search and look at all the offseason threads spouting this same nonsense. Addai sucks, he was only good because Rhodes was there, he can't carry it 15 times a game, yada yada yada.
I don't think me or Guru were part of those threads, and we're the ones discussing that here.Please don't lump us with the nonsense posted in those threads. I don't think either one of us espouses those theories.

 
So why was his average YPC so high at LSU?
Why was Ron Dayne's so high at Wisconsin?I'm not saying college statistics are meaningless, but I don't give them as much weight as to what you can do on the field. And this is coming from a Moneyball/sabermetrics fanatic.
So why is Addai able to continue to put up a high YPC in the NFL? :rolleyes:
Seriously, we really, really need the :strawman: smiley.Nobody in this thread is saying Addai sucks. Nobody is saying Addai=Dayne. We're saying he's an average/slightly above average talent in a great situation.Why is he putting up so high of YPC in the NFL? Read the OP's take on it. That's my take.Back off the cute smileys and try to understand what we're saying.
I understand what you're saying, I also understand you're incorrect. If anything, being in Indy limits RBs. Their OL is built to pass block, NOT run block. Running is not the first option, and they go away from it pretty quickly. Addai is the 4th or 5th opion on any given play, and he still put up huge numbers in limited opps.This is not at all like an RB in Denver, which is a system that legitimately makes RBs better than their talent.
I'm not saying it's Denver by any stretch of the imagination. I think it's different--but close in effectiveness.Let me explain.No, they're not as great at run-blocking as Denver, but they're very good, and that's all they need to be. When you have a passing attack like the Colts, you ALWAYS have to be wary of play-action. So, safeties and corners really can't cheat. If you combine that with a very good (but not elite) run-blocking OL, I'd argue that situation is actually very close to as good for a RB as running in Denver where the passing threat is much less.
 
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I agree, Addai is not an elite talent, but he is very good. He reminds me a lot of Roger Craig. Even his situation. Craig was obviously an above-average talent, though not elite. Had Craig played for the Bucs in the mid-80s, he would be as forgotten as James Wilder.

 
Why can't people just admit he's good. Hey - you just might have been wrong when you ranked him at the draft, after the draft, this year, etc.Rhodes is an average RB, and the situation didn't make him look good. Why does the "situation" get credit for Addai then?Maybe you should just admit you're wrong about Addai. The kid has real talent.
Because Rhodes is not an average NFL starting running back. slight :rolleyes: as a pet peeve of mine must come out... For everyone, if you say a guy is an average running back (most people will assume starter). Therefore, you must be saying that there are roughly 15 RB's better than him and 15 RB's worse than him. Rhodes is clearly at the bottom of the NFL starting RB's so he is not an average running back. Of course if you are saying compared to all NFL RB's, then yes he is average, but that means EVERY starting RB is well above average and I am sure that is not the meaning.That being said, I thought Addai ran well yesterday. yes he had room to run and a lot of it, but there were times where he made the right cut back and showed decent vision. I would have to really look at all RB's and my opinion of their talent, but I think saying Addai is around the 20th starting RB in terms of talent is probably about right. Of course this has nothing to do with fantasy value and that is at least top 10 on the Colts.Sorry, we return to regularly scheduled program.
 
One question for all you gurus/haters. Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all. All it cares about is stats, and he will put up HUGE numbers.
Uh, oh...he called us haters. Now I know I'm dealing with a Shark.And please provide a link to where any of us said he wasn't going to put up great numbers. That was the point of this thread, Skippy. He's an average or above average talent that's in such a great situation that he could be top 3.
Just do a search and look at all the offseason threads spouting this same nonsense. Addai sucks, he was only good because Rhodes was there, he can't carry it 15 times a game, yada yada yada.
I don't think me or Guru were part of those threads, and we're the ones discussing that here.Please don't lump us with the nonsense posted in those threads. I don't think either one of us espouses those theories.
I wasn't the OP who lumped you in with them, I just pointed out that people often spouted such nonsense. I'm sorry if the implication was that you or DG were among them.
 
I agree, Addai is not an elite talent, but he is very good. He reminds me a lot of Roger Craig. Even his situation. Craig was obviously an above-average talent, though not elite. Had Craig played for the Bucs in the mid-80s, he would be as forgotten as James Wilder.
I think this is the compromise we're all going to reach, but we'd rather waste 3 hours and 400 posts getting there.Please stop putting sense into this thread.TIA.
 
No the point of the thread is to run down Addai as "just a guy in a good situation" which is BS.
Why are you saying "no" to my rehashing the point of this thread? We've both nailed it.You think it's BS. Great. But, you're running around in such circles in this thread. You've said:1. "Does your scoring system care if a guy has a huge amount of talent or if he's in a great situation? Mine doesn't care about that at all."2. "Addai as "just a guy in a good situation" which is BS."Pick one. Are you arguing that good statistics are just good stats regardless of talent level (which is agreeing in part with us), or are you arguing that Addai is an uber-elite back?I'm not saying you're wrong either way. Just please pick one so we can discuss it.
How am I running in circles? The point of me saying my scoring system doesn't care about his situation is that this entire thread is pointless. Why run down the guy when he's going to put up huge numbers? It doesn't matter if you think his stats are situational or because he's all world.
 
How am I running in circles? The point of me saying my scoring system doesn't care about his situation is that this entire thread is pointless. Why run down the guy when he's going to put up huge numbers? It doesn't matter if you think his stats are situational or because he's all world.
1. Because it's Friday morning, and a lot of us would rather have a distraction from work.2. Because it matters for the long run. Indy won't always have this situation, and Addai is very young. What happens when the other shoe drops?
 
Why can't people just admit he's good. Hey - you just might have been wrong when you ranked him at the draft, after the draft, this year, etc.Rhodes is an average RB, and the situation didn't make him look good. Why does the "situation" get credit for Addai then?Maybe you should just admit you're wrong about Addai. The kid has real talent.
Because Rhodes is not an average NFL starting running back. slight :sleep: as a pet peeve of mine must come out... For everyone, if you say a guy is an average running back (most people will assume starter). Therefore, you must be saying that there are roughly 15 RB's better than him and 15 RB's worse than him. Rhodes is clearly at the bottom of the NFL starting RB's so he is not an average running back. Of course if you are saying compared to all NFL RB's, then yes he is average, but that means EVERY starting RB is well above average and I am sure that is not the meaning.That being said, I thought Addai ran well yesterday. yes he had room to run and a lot of it, but there were times where he made the right cut back and showed decent vision. I would have to really look at all RB's and my opinion of their talent, but I think saying Addai is around the 20th starting RB in terms of talent is probably about right. Of course this has nothing to do with fantasy value and that is at least top 10 on the Colts.Sorry, we return to regularly scheduled program.
By virtue of starting, ALL starting NFL RBs are above average. If they weren't, they'd be backups. Consider, most teams carry at least 3 RBs. That means there are a minimum of 96 in the NFL. If their talent level went in order, that means RB #48 would be average. Hence RBs 32 and above are all better than average, given that each team has an RB ranked 32 and above.Given that Rhodes was signed to the Raiders in the offseason, to compete for a starting role, they must feel he is an above average RB, at least borderline starting capable.Even if you say he's only an average "starting" RB, you ar saying he's below #16. So who would you rank above him?LT, LJ, SJax, Gore, Westbrook, Portis, Peterson (MIN) - ok I'll buy those.Shaun Alexander, FWP, Fred Taylor, McGahee - you could argue maybe.Lynch, Edge, Brandon Jacobs, Rudi Johnson, Laurence Maroney, Ronnie Brown, Cadillac Williams, Lamont Jordan/Dominic Rhodes, Travis Henry, Foster, Williams, MJD and so on... I don't think the greatest litigator could reasonably argue they are more talented than Addai.I have him in the top-10 in regards to NFL starting talent RBs. But I could see how someone could have him ranked #12 or so... but that's still above average. Not elite, but definitely above average.
 
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I agree. There were a few carries that I thight that a better back could have taken to the house.I was really impressed with that Ugoh guy. First NFL game and he held his own and then some against a pro-bowler.
:mellow: Havent read all the posts, but Addai does things that not all Rbs can. That includes catching the ball (above average) blocking (above average) running the ball (above average) plus for someone his size he hits the hole hard, which gives him most of his advantage. He isnt the fastest or the most elusive, but the man has above average skills in almost all categories.
 
I see addai as a very Shaun Alexander type RB. Not flashy, just a great north south runner, who can read and hit holes very well, in a good system and simply a RB that gets the job done week after week. Is he as talented as SA? I would venture to say that he is. He fights for the extra yard, always falls forward, can be shifty when he needs to, and in only his sophomore year has developed into a very good blocker being able to pick up the blitz and protect his QB, something that Edge was probably the best in the league at.

Addai is not the highlight reel that guys like Bush or LT are, but when all is said and done, I think he is a DAMN good RB, who happens to be lucky enough to be on a team that only amplifies his abilites.

 
The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package. He's talented enough running the ball to be what they need, and he's also very good at blocking and catching. Polian and Dungy (and Manning) were WELL AWARE of his ability to pick up a blitz in college, and weighed that heavily.

Then he showed them enough in his rookie year to hand over the keys.

He is the perfect fit for Indy, and he is far from average.

 
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The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package.
IIRC, they weren't targeting Addai. He was all that was left when it came down to them.Of course, afterwards they spun him as "their guy", but up until then, they were targeting Williams, etc.
 
The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package.
IIRC, they weren't targeting Addai. He was all that was left when it came down to them.Of course, afterwards they spun him as "their guy", but up until then, they were targeting Williams, etc.
I've heard quotes from Manning about Addai being a big topic of conversation before the draft, and his ability to pick up blitzes being something the Colts FO and Coaches glowed about. Maybe he wasn't the #1 target, but he was certainly high on their list.Looks like they hit another home run in the draft.
 
The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package.
IIRC, they weren't targeting Addai. He was all that was left when it came down to them.Of course, afterwards they spun him as "their guy", but up until then, they were targeting Williams, etc.
I've heard quotes from Manning about Addai being a big topic of conversation before the draft, and his ability to pick up blitzes being something the Colts FO and Coaches glowed about. Maybe he wasn't the #1 target, but he was certainly high on their list.Looks like they hit another home run in the draft.
Possibly. I don't remember that, but obviously it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.He's an excellent pass-blocker. No doubt about that...which is an excellent fit for that offense.
 
The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package. He's talented enough running the ball to be what they need, and he's also very good at blocking and catching. Polian and Dungy (and Manning) were WELL AWARE of his ability to pick up a blitz in college, and weighed that heavily.Then he showed them enough in his rookie year to hand over the keys.He is the perfect fit for Indy, and he is far from average.
Agreed. Indy has done a really good job bringing in offensive players for their scheme. The guys they bring in are far from average players. Addai rushed for over 1000 yards as a rookie and in his sophmore year at the age of 24 is showing he is well above average. Average backs would not be starting in Indy; average backs don't rush for 1000 yards in a true RBBC; average backs don't win SB's in their first year. Addai is not an average back; he is a very good back, well above avearge in all around talent.
 
The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package.
IIRC, they weren't targeting Addai. He was all that was left when it came down to them.Of course, afterwards they spun him as "their guy", but up until then, they were targeting Williams, etc.
I've heard quotes from Manning about Addai being a big topic of conversation before the draft, and his ability to pick up blitzes being something the Colts FO and Coaches glowed about. Maybe he wasn't the #1 target, but he was certainly high on their list.Looks like they hit another home run in the draft.
Possibly. I don't remember that, but obviously it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
I heard an interview yesterday with a guy (name?) who is a local radio personality in NOLA with strong local ties. He said he ran into Manning before the '05 draft and told him that he should be sure to watch film on Addai and focus on his blocking. Manning responded with "We know all about it."
 
The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package.
IIRC, they weren't targeting Addai. He was all that was left when it came down to them.Of course, afterwards they spun him as "their guy", but up until then, they were targeting Williams, etc.
I've heard quotes from Manning about Addai being a big topic of conversation before the draft, and his ability to pick up blitzes being something the Colts FO and Coaches glowed about. Maybe he wasn't the #1 target, but he was certainly high on their list.Looks like they hit another home run in the draft.
Possibly. I don't remember that, but obviously it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
I heard an interview yesterday with a guy (name?) who is a local radio personality in NOLA with strong local ties. He said he ran into Manning before the '05 draft and told him that he should be sure to watch film on Addai and focus on his blocking. Manning responded with "We know all about it."
Good info. Thanks.
 
The reason the Colts targeted Addai in the draft was because of the all-around package.
IIRC, they weren't targeting Addai. He was all that was left when it came down to them.Of course, afterwards they spun him as "their guy", but up until then, they were targeting Williams, etc.
Correct. In fact, the story was that Polian went into a meltdown in their draft day war room when the Pats enexpectedly grabbed Maroney ahead of them.
 
Addai gets thrown to the ground a lot and doesn't break many tackles. He is quick and shifty though and has pretty good vision.

 

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