After careful consideration, I want to die after my 85th year (1 Viewer)

[jamny]

Important topic. If you work in a hospital for any amount of time you see a lot of futile care and deaths with a seeming lack of dignity. I can’t speak to the question of how to set an expiration date on life but some practical steps we can take for ourselves and elderly loved ones:

-Select a Health Care Proxy and give a signed form to your PCP to place in your medical record. Most people pick their spouse (and this will be the default by law if you haven’t designated one) but that might not always be the right choice if you have discordant views. You want someone with whom you’ve discussed your end of life wishes and who will follow through with your wishes. 

-If you have a lot of first degree relatives or very close friends, it’d be helpful to let as many of them know your wishes as possible. Even a well-intentioned HCP can be put in a difficult situation when there are family disagreements regarding medical decisions.

-Complete a Living Will that specifically outlines your preferences for medical treatments. This is a legal document and physicians will need to do their best to interpret and abide by them. Run it by your PCP before signing because they can help you make sure it is not too ambiguous to be medically helpful.

-At that time you can also complete a MOLST/POLST (Medical/Physician’s Orders for Life-sustaining Treatment) and have your PCP sign it and place into your medical record. These are very unambiguous and specific physician orders to which providers must adhere. This is where your DNR/DNI type wishes are formalized.

Some relevant reading: How Doctors Die

Good info here. We've done all that but didn't have a PCP sign anything. I guess when one of us goes, the other will have to make sure that is done..thx.

 

[wikkidpissah]

85 is actually a pretty good number, far as it goes....

Cos & I have discussed the subject of eldercare (i also tend parents in their 90s) at length, so i wont cover that ground, but 85 is about the time that a kind of autism (i believe that all spectrums - hormonal, hyperactivity, polarity, autism - exist within each of us) takes over the processing capacity of most of those who make it to that point. Words spoken by others suddenly start to come in like weapons - i'm guessing the reason to be that diminished capacity to process causes the tiny gap in time between impact and understanding to set off alarms - and makes eldster feel a bit a fool, and we all know how ugly it is to feel foolish.

This makes old folk defensive and sets a template of paranoia that never diminishes. My family is "lucky" enough to have most of my parents gen make it to 85, allowing me to develop some theories based on all their behavior and then test it out on their friends of similar age. I've notice that, in response, they mostly deflect anything that doesnt immediately appear to confirm what they already know or guessed you say. This fits with new brain science which shows that eyes & ears dont exactly record their fields but, instead, project the brain's expectations and reports back the difference. As a result, i've had great success communicating necessary & even difficult info to oldsters by conveying them in "well, you know that.." or "of course..." or the famous "well, i read in a magazine..." ramps that bypass their alarm system.

Actually, the most important & unfortunate part of that decline in interpersonal skills is that all the person who has pushed away from the table is left with is themselves and a soul has to be pretty strong & lucky to not be mostly filled with regrets - on top of the inevitable pain of their physicality - by the time that happens. And, since elders have far better long than short-term memories, the past visits them in floods & furies. THAT's when they become the selftrons that Cos describes, and the gauze of self blocks the flow of care. They no longer bother with what happens outside them and are offended that everyone is not as concerned about them as they are.

And that ugly hold on nothing but beating death sets in. And there is NOTHING pretty or useful or necessary about that kind of living. As i've said before, i wish that raising parents to their graves was noble or rewarding but, past that point, it isn't. And that's where Cos don't wanna go and i don't blame him.

Not long ago i scared the crap out of the youngest member of my parents gen with sumn i said about advanced age.. The family gathered in a Boston hospital room to pull the plug on my mother's sister, who had stroked out a couple days before. My Aunt Anne - an educator & mother of the famous kids in my fam - made note of how much differently i treated my folks and how responsive they were to it and i responded, "Oh, you have to - 90 is like 80, drunk & under water". Because she's my youngest auntie and i always talked to her more like a peer, i forgot how close to that gaping maw her 83yo self was. She shrivelled like a spider on a grill.

 

[-fish-]

@cosjobs, you got all of your powers of attorney/health care directives in order?   as a member of your legal team and fan club, I'd be happy to fix you up gratis.

 

[Lehigh98]

If I was hit with a debilitating, slow but certain outcome disease I’ll likely check out before needless suffering for me or loved ones. If hit with cancer that was terminal I’d likely do hospice sooner than most.

I feel the same way, now anyway.  If you haven't seen "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri" it's worth a watch just to see how Woody Harrelson's character handles it, really hit home for me and would probably be pretty close to the way I'd want to do it.  My grandfathers went out late and ugly with alzheimer's and lung cancer and I don't want to do that to anyone.

Spoiler

"He leaves the hospital against medical advice and spends an idyllic day with his wife and their two young daughters.  He says goodnight to the girls, leaves notes behind for several people including his sleeping  wife and then commits suicide to spare his family the pain of watching him die of cancer."

 

[cosjobs]

I feel the same way, now anyway.  If you haven't seen "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri" it's worth a watch just to see how Woody Harrelson's character handles it, really hit home for me and would probably be pretty close to the way I'd want to do it.  My grandfathers went out late and ugly with alzheimer's and lung cancer and I don't want to do that to anyone.

Warning, evidently I don't know how to use spoiler tags...

<spoiler>"He leaves the hospital against medical advice and spends an idyllic day with his wife and their two young daughters.  He says goodnight to the girls, leaves notes behind for several people including his sleeping  wife and then commits suicide to spare his family the pain of watching him die of cancer."</spoiler>

Try [ ] instead of < >

The way I remember it is on here, is that I don't need to use the shift key

 

[Lehigh98]

Try [ ] instead of < >

The way I remember it is on here, is that I don't need to use the shift key

That did it, thanks! 

 

[glumpy]

Personally, I think that if and when I decide to give it all up, I'll decide then--not now. 

 

[AAABatteries]

I don’t want to hijack but there’s a lot of reasearch in to Alzheimer’s looking at it being “Type 3 diabetes” and a reaction to insulin.  I don’t know if any studies per se showing positive results but with the success we’ve shown in fighting type 2 and to a lesser degree type 1 I’m hopeful we can make progress in some of these late life brain issues.

 

[wikkidpissah]

Personally, I think that if and when I decide to give it all up, I'll decide then--not now. 

My impression is that a big part of cos's point is that it is at precisely the juncture where even the most fatalistic person loses all value & ability that he suddenly & irrevocably decides to hold on to life like a barnacle, and cos wants to spare the world and himself from the wretched ignominy of that reversal

 

[CurlyNight]

It's all about quality of life. There are some stage 4 cancer people who to me have low qol. But they are hanging on in bad shape for their spouse, kids, etc. I have no such allegiance. When it gets too much then it's easy to check yourself out. OD on iron will do it. Heard a story from my night nurse back in Oct about a girl who had cancer but her mother said it can't be and never got her checked out. One night she takes a bottle or more of iron pills and heads to the er so she could get checked out. Too late. No way to reverse that damage unlike other methods. Creepy story to hear at your 11 pm walk around the floor.

 

[glumpy]

My impression is that a big part of cos's point is that it is at precisely the juncture where even the most fatalistic person loses all value & ability that he suddenly & irrevocably decides to hold on to life like a barnacle, and cos wants to spare the world and himself from the wretched ignominy of that reversal

My reaction was to the age--or more precisely, defining the age at this point. I just think that the way you write your wishes has to allow for some flexibility. My mother made that call and it worked well--but it was not based on an arbitrary age--it was much more a physical and mental capacity. It helped that she retained the mental acumen to help with the decision. Maybe that's what I would target. 

 

[rockaction]

My reaction was to the age--or more precisely, defining the age at this point. I just think that the way you write your wishes has to allow for some flexibility. My mother made that call and it worked well--but it was not based on an arbitrary age--it was much more a physical and mental capacity. It helped that she retained the mental acumen to help with the decision. Maybe that's what I would target. 

Thanks, glumpy, that's also what I thought when I read this post. 

 

[skol asylum]

I think I worded it as the end of my 85th year. Just to give me a little wiggle room

So your 85th birthday then.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

I think I worded it as the end of my 85th year. Just to give me a little wiggle room

So your 85th birthday then.

It could be filmed and titled "Logan's 'Not' Run".

 

[Smack Tripper]

85 is actually a pretty good number, far as it goes....

Cos & I have discussed the subject of eldercare (i also tend parents in their 90s) at length, so i wont cover that ground, but 85 is about the time that a kind of autism (i believe that all spectrums - hormonal, hyperactivity, polarity, autism - exist within each of us) takes over the processing capacity of most of those who make it to that point. Words spoken by others suddenly start to come in like weapons - i'm guessing the reason to be that diminished capacity to process causes the tiny gap in time between impact and understanding to set off alarms - and makes eldster feel a bit a fool, and we all know how ugly it is to feel foolish.

This makes old folk defensive and sets a template of paranoia that never diminishes. My family is "lucky" enough to have most of my parents gen make it to 85, allowing me to develop some theories based on all their behavior and then test it out on their friends of similar age. I've notice that, in response, they mostly deflect anything that doesnt immediately appear to confirm what they already know or guessed you say. This fits with new brain science which shows that eyes & ears dont exactly record their fields but, instead, project the brain's expectations and reports back the difference. As a result, i've had great success communicating necessary & even difficult info to oldsters by conveying them in "well, you know that.." or "of course..." or the famous "well, i read in a magazine..." ramps that bypass their alarm system.

Actually, the most important & unfortunate part of that decline in interpersonal skills is that all the person who has pushed away from the table is left with is themselves and a soul has to be pretty strong & lucky to not be mostly filled with regrets - on top of the inevitable pain of their physicality - by the time that happens. And, since elders have far better long than short-term memories, the past visits them in floods & furies. THAT's when they become the selftrons that Cos describes, and the gauze of self blocks the flow of care. They no longer bother with what happens outside them and are offended that everyone is not as concerned about them as they are.

And that ugly hold on nothing but beating death sets in. And there is NOTHING pretty or useful or necessary about that kind of living. As i've said before, i wish that raising parents to their graves was noble or rewarding but, past that point, it isn't. And that's where Cos don't wanna go and i don't blame him.

Not long ago i scared the crap out of the youngest member of my parents gen with sumn i said about advanced age.. The family gathered in a Boston hospital room to pull the plug on my mother's sister, who had stroked out a couple days before. My Aunt Anne - an educator & mother of the famous kids in my fam - made note of how much differently i treated my folks and how responsive they were to it and i responded, "Oh, you have to - 90 is like 80, drunk & under water". Because she's my youngest auntie and i always talked to her more like a peer, i forgot how close to that gaping maw her 83yo self was. She shrivelled like a spider on a grill.

so glad you're back and posting here man, and I appreciate your wisdom and insight, lots to take here and I'm going to try these strategies....just a point of clarification, and I'm sorry for your loss.... is your aunt you were close to the one who passed away?

As for the bolded, its draining and can be consuming but I'm not sure I agree totally and I'd submit may you don't either if you're doing it.  Its a selfless act that has absolute no good outcome but you do it anyway and I think there's just something there.  I'd learned to, or maybe its a coping mechanism, to redefine "success" or "victory" in this situation.  And maybe thats an american/human need for a happy ending or some kind of positive narrative to fashion, but every day, and if you get some lucidity and engagement, its not so bad.  If your definition of success is renewed vitality or endless life, of course that is a losing equation.  

I will say, the whole experience for me, and I'm dealing with a father with dementia, is, I really question what makes us human, what makes us a person.  The conversations are superficial and not at all substantive, but my father, if the knob is broken on the radio, its stuck on a happy station.  He's happy, and I really think he exists to love and be loved.  He doesn't retain information and he couldn't tell you who's president.  This seems to trouble my siblings, they've fully disengaged from the situation and I'm left trying to engage with him and read tea leaves.   I guess, the feel like he has nothing left to say.  But I talk to them, I talk to other people, who REALLY has anything to say.   My day is a series of trite conversations, maybe referencing what is hopefully a safe, or outwardly shared opinion of a current event or referencing something  in sports (CAN YOU BELIVE PARKEY MISSED WHAT AN JERK).  But there's so little depth to day to day.  When I see my father, I really feel like he's found some zen.   Zen with a cost of me doing most of the day to day duties he needs, but zen nonetheless.  Its not at all without challenges and headaches and frustrations and tears but I think its a good fight worth fighting, at least as of now.   

 

[cosjobs]

So your 85th birthday then.

actually the end of the year of my 85th birthday. Quit rushing me, man.

 

[cosjobs]

It could be filmed and titled "Logan's 'Not' Run".

Soylent Green Acres

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Soylent Green Acres

perfect 

 

[IC FBGCav]

@cosjobs

I would like to keep posting here with you well into your 90's.   

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Personally, I think that if and when I decide to give it all up, I'll decide then--not now. 

My thought was to have the circumstances and actions thought out in a non-emergency situation.  There was no pressure to make a choice at 21.  I could reason things out and review every so often.  When I had to decide things for my dad, my choices were all thought out and I could concentrate on him.

 

[Henry Ford]

My parents are 91 and 93. They want to keep on going and that's okay with me, but personally, I would like to have about an 85 year commitment.

I know a lot of you are thinking, big deal, you'll never make it that far anyway. That may be the case, but I would like to take steps that I have some control on my exit.

I know of very few people over 85 that do much of anything but watch tv. I really do not see me doing much different and even with Netflix I expect it to be a dreary existence.

My parents are both in hospice now. Not for any particular ailment or disease, but because everyone's pretty sure they won't last much longer and all the trips to the hospital and stuff seemed to be more injurous than helpful. Evidently that's how hospice works: if you get sick your pain is taken care of, but they no longer try to "cure" you of anything. If you break a leg or cut yourself, they'll patch that up, but anything else, you are only given pain meds to make the end more pleasant. 

I need to make sure my wife agrees, as that would be the only thing that would make me want to hang on longer, but she's pretty pragmatic and I think it will be a joint decision. \We don't have kids, so That's not a consideration many of you will have.

Any lawyerguys know if there id some way I could make a legal commitment to this? It seems I I and others opted for this path, it would greatly reduce overall healthcare costs and maybe lead to an alternative way for us to go about pre-planning our exit with a date. It would sure as hell make budgeting for retirement easier. 

I googled around and found nothing about this. It seems pretty obvious as a choice that I should be entitled to, esp. if it would benefit society in general. I am curious to hear the thoughts of others.

But I want to emphasize that I am not telling others to do it and certainly not forcing them. But I would like to see it as an available, acceptable option.

“The Mule” was based on the true story of a 90 year old drug mule. 

There is still life to be lived. 

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I hope I don’t live to 75. Perfect world, I die at 72 on a stripper. glllllllllllllllll

 

[Henry Ford]

I hope I don’t live to 75. Perfect world, I die at 72 on a stripper. glllllllllllllllll

Monkey’s paw: the stripper is Ron Jeremy

 

[cosjobs]

“The Mule” was based on the true story of a 90 year old drug mule. 

There is still life to be lived. 

And remember Eastwood and his debate with the empty stool, what, six years ago?

I rest my case.

 

[Henry Ford]

And remember Eastwood and his debate with the empty stool, what, six years ago?

I rest my case.

Well, sure, don’t become an actor. 

Become a drug mule.  Sorry, thought that was clear. 

 

[Otis]

Well, this is morbid. 

 

[pecorino]

@Joe 8ryant @proninja

I'd like input from some people of faith. I think that will be where I would meet the most resistance, so I'll start with the most abnormally reasonable Christians I know.

No resistance here, but my faith (I’m an Orthodox Christian) teaches that committing suicide is tantamount to losing hope with God and proclaims that judgment likely won’t go your way. Thou shall not kill, ya know.

 

[pecorino]

My views have changed since the birth of my now 3-year-old daughter. If I make it to 85, she would be 40, very possibly with grandkids. So long as I’m not a burden to her or them, I’d like to stick around to see her raise them and maybe even help. I’ll be all wise and rich by then.

 

[wikkidpissah]

so glad you're back and posting here man, and I appreciate your wisdom and insight, lots to take here and I'm going to try these strategies....just a point of clarification, and I'm sorry for your loss.... is your aunt you were close to the one who passed away?

As for the bolded, its draining and can be consuming but I'm not sure I agree totally and I'd submit may you don't either if you're doing it.  Its a selfless act that has absolute no good outcome but you do it anyway and I think there's just something there.  I'd learned to, or maybe its a coping mechanism, to redefine "success" or "victory" in this situation.  And maybe thats an american/human need for a happy ending or some kind of positive narrative to fashion, but every day, and if you get some lucidity and engagement, its not so bad.  If your definition of success is renewed vitality or endless life, of course that is a losing equation.  

I will say, the whole experience for me, and I'm dealing with a father with dementia, is, I really question what makes us human, what makes us a person.  The conversations are superficial and not at all substantive, but my father, if the knob is broken on the radio, its stuck on a happy station.  He's happy, and I really think he exists to love and be loved.  He doesn't retain information and he couldn't tell you who's president.  This seems to trouble my siblings, they've fully disengaged from the situation and I'm left trying to engage with him and read tea leaves.   I guess, the feel like he has nothing left to say.  But I talk to them, I talk to other people, who REALLY has anything to say.   My day is a series of trite conversations, maybe referencing what is hopefully a safe, or outwardly shared opinion of a current event or referencing something  in sports (CAN YOU BELIVE PARKEY MISSED WHAT AN JERK).  But there's so little depth to day to day.  When I see my father, I really feel like he's found some zen.   Zen with a cost of me doing most of the day to day duties he needs, but zen nonetheless.  Its not at all without challenges and headaches and frustrations and tears but I think its a good fight worth fighting, at least as of now.   

Clarification - the Aunt i said '90 is 80 drunk & underwater' to was among those holding vigil around an older (89 then) Aunt we'd just taken off life support. Close to both - my mother's fam is very tightknit.

As for the bolded, "i wish that raising parents to their graves was noble or rewarding", i think we're actually on the same page.

I don't like my parents. Never have. My mother, in looks & demeanor, resembles the Squire Danaher character in The Quiet Man - a domineering, cantankerous keeper of tallies & grudges. Though a cheery, mild-mannered sort, the next time my farmboy-turned-scientist father considers the impact of his actions on others will be the first time. I begrudge them both the near fifty years it took to dash the effects of their natures & nurtures out of my system. Ran away at 15yo and, tho not because of them, was glad to be rid and did not return. Always stayed in touch, remained civil but not inclusive til i became a widower 20 years ago and detoxed from grief & drugs in an uncle's nearby hunting cabin, when we established a true detente.

My mother, though closing in on 95, has been an invalid for over 20 yrs. I starting trying to return East in order to offer help but my work wouldnt let me and i moved to the Boston area after i retired early this decade. Congestive heart failure had me Ma near the end, free room & board and quiet to work on my writing fit budget & plans, so i moved up to VT and in with the folks 5 yrs ago and "promised" my mother she wouldnt have to go to a home as long as i (who'd worked many med/surg rotations in hospitals in a time when that was often required from psych techs) could help it.

Be careful with your promises. Ma rallied with her lil boyo at home and what i thought would be less than a yr has gone past five now and offers no sign of relief. After she got comfortable with my private handling of her, it took me a year to disabuse her of the notion she could crab, cry & craze her way thru me like she does everyone else. My father was vital until a tick-borne illness waylayed him a year ago and now he's sunk to indulging every bitterness he'd masked so well so long. I showed him up in a very cruel way when i briefly hit the bigtime and his new moroseness betrays how much he's resented me the five decades hence.

It took me a very long time to find my artist's heart and i felt highly exposed when i finally did. Returning to the nest seemed like a good move then, but i've been asked precisely two questions about my work or anything that matters to me in my half-decade here and not one request to hear one of the fifty or so songs i've spent hours, days & weeks bashing out just below them, yet i must revel in every triumph & tragedy, real or imagined, of theirs. I feed them, haul them around, diaper one of em twice a day, as well as indulge the drool & drivel & fear & hate & games of their drunken, underwater lives. I have heard each their anecdotes hundreds of times, but not one recollection of me past age ten, not even their attendance of the opening of my Dinner & Divorce play at Boston's Lyric Theater. Not to mention how hollow rings any note of joy in this frozen tomb.

Yet i continue without complaint - til today anyways. Always cheery & helpful, blow up no more often than once every 4-5 months (Ativan helps w those rage cycles). Because i love them and because there is something so right about putting oneself aside for another in need, especially ones who worked like dogs, sweated & suffered & stayed up & bent the course of their lives in their hopes for their progeny, right or wrong. It turned out to be anything but noble or rewarding. Merely right. And i've heard the same from the vast majority of other passive heroes who've gone the extra mile to let their folks down lightly. Good luck with yours - feel free to blow off steam to me should you feel the need. Remember - they're so good at finding your buttons because they installed them.

 

[glumpy]

My thought was to have the circumstances and actions thought out in a non-emergency situation.  There was no pressure to make a choice at 21.  I could reason things out and review every so often.  When I had to decide things for my dad, my choices were all thought out and I could concentrate on him.

Despite what I impulsively posted I agree with this. My mother particularly expressed her wishes in advance, and allowed for changing circumstances, and fortunately when the time came she was capable of assisting with the decision. I know that's not always the case. 

I am at the age when I need to define my preferences and it's not an easy topic to broach. Time to get on it. 

Thanks!