Afterlife - Logically (1 Viewer)

[Dan Lambskin]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: death is the cognitive architect of voluntary insanity.  

We are food for worms.  

Enjoy Arbys

 

[Galileo]

Strange thread to discover while sitting on the can this morning. 

I'm an agnostic theist. With that it of the way, Galileo's post is for me what has always been the scientific possibility for people who want or need to believe in an afterlife. 

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant — it is said to be conserved over time. In other words, this law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed from one form to another.

imo room to believe that the energy of your soul/spirit/mojo can persist in some form. When I die, I'll try to let you know if this is true.

Do you have evidence that any of these things exist in terms of energy/matter?

 

[El Floppo]

Do you have evidence that any of these things exist in terms of energy/matter?

Yes

 

[Galileo]

Yes

Cool.  Just checking.

 

[GregR]

Well, the atoms memory locations that comprise our bodies hold our data in this simulation will be recycled and continue to be part of the universe simulation. Immortality!!!

FYP

 

[Politician Spock]

You can't logically "exclude" any explanation for the unknown.  

You can logically exclude explanations that are illogical. 

 

[skol asylum]

Funny. When I was 10 I was completely terrified of eternity. Never ending. Even if it was in heaven. Just forever without end?  I remember crying to my mom about it. 

My daughter was the same way a few years ago. The idea of forever freaked her out.

 

[matuski]

You can logically exclude explanations that are illogical. 

Which person in this life has authority over the unknown to say what is and isn't logical?

 

[Politician Spock]

Which person in this life has authority over the unknown to say what is and isn't logical?

No one has authority over logic. It is an authority to itself.

 

[El Floppo]

Which person in this life has authority over the unknown to say what is and isn't logical?

It it's anybody, it's got to be Spock

 

[wikkidpissah]

Strange thread to discover while sitting on the can this morning. 

I'm an agnostic theist. With that it of the way, Galileo's post is for me what has always been the scientific possibility for people who want or need to believe in an afterlife. 

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant — it is said to be conserved over time. In other words, this law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed from one form to another.

imo room to believe that the energy of your soul/spirit/mojo can persist in some form. When I die, I'll try to let you know if this is true.

This is very close to my outlook. As a dreamy psychedelic ####, i've thought about this stuff quite a bit & this is how i see it:

We are gifted upon birth with our portion of animating energy, we improve it or not and its essence exists, in the dimension in which God lives & from which electromagnetism comes, for up-to-and-including all time.. I sense that that "spirit" - each our tinctures of distilled humanity, removed of memory - surrounds us in a field, which explains much of the phenomenology which caused me (plus a lil windowpane) to wonder about it in the first place

 

[matuski]

No one has authority over logic. It is an authority to itself.

How do you apply it to the unknown?  You can whittle an explanation down to a relative scale of likelihood based logic perhaps... but in the end logic does not get you any closer to the answer.

Logic has not made the unknown regarding the afterlife any more known.

 

[Politician Spock]

How do you apply it to the unknown?

Logic can be applied to anything. That doesn't mean logic has an answer for everything. It's simply a matter of whether an answer was reached logically or not. If answers were reached illogically, then we can exclude those answers. 

 

[skol asylum]

I don't pretend to have any answers. I was raised to believe in God as a Lutheran but have never been overly religious. I chose to believe but understand all the arguments against. I'm not saying everything in the Bible is literally truth. I'm not a big fan of organized religion for many of the same reasons that a typical logical athiest would believe. At the same time I despise a certain approach that some athiests take that is condescending and dismissive of those who chose to have faith in something bigger than themselves. There is something very arrogant in thinking that man has it all figured out. I like some of the big overarching themes of my faith and that is good enough for me for now. Be willing to look at your actions. Try to be a better person. Ask for forgiveness and strength. Be thankful for what you have. Be grateful for your chance to live and for your loved ones. Be willing to believe in something greater than ourselves. Anyways, it's not perfect but that's how I roll.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Kind of off topic, but I am fascinated by the topic of the soul.  Maybe that is not even the word for it.  The thing that takes us from being just a conglomeration of cells and gives us the capacity to think, feel, reason, etc. When we die or matter is just broken down and transformed into some other form of matter.  But what is our spririt/soul/spark/whatever you call it transformed into?  Or is it just a byproduct of the other things that make us up as a physical entity and that byproduct is no longer created when the body is broken down/transformed into dirt?

 

[wikkidpissah]

Kind of off topic, but I am fascinated by the topic of the soul.  Maybe that is not even the word for it.  The thing that takes us from being just a conglomeration of cells and gives us the capacity to think, feel, reason, etc. When we die or matter is just broken down and transformed into some other form of matter.  But what is our spririt/soul/spark/whatever you call it transformed into?  Or is it just a byproduct of the other things that make us up as a physical entity and that byproduct is no longer created when the body is broken down/transformed into dirt?

Some Mr. Know-It-All you are!

 

[otb_lifer]

I don't pretend to have any answers. I was raised to believe in God as a Lutheran but have never been overly religious. I chose to believe but understand all the arguments against. I'm not saying everything in the Bible is literally truth. I'm not a big fan of organized religion for many of the same reasons that a typical logical athiest would believe. At the same time I despise a certain approach that some athiests take that is condescending and dismissive of those who chose to have faith in something bigger than themselves. There is something very arrogant in thinking that man has it all figured out. I like some of the big overarching themes of my faith and that is good enough for me for now. Be willing to look at your actions. Try to be a better person. Ask for forgiveness and strength. Be thankful for what you have. Be grateful for your chance to live and for your loved ones. Be willing to believe in something greater than ourselves. Anyways, it's not perfect but that's how I roll.

would bestow GOLD if this were reddit  ? - perfectly articulated, just replace Lutheran with Catholic and it is 100% my stance. 

 

[Nipsey]

Kind of off topic, but I am fascinated by the topic of the soul.  Maybe that is not even the word for it.  The thing that takes us from being just a conglomeration of cells and gives us the capacity to think, feel, reason, etc. When we die or matter is just broken down and transformed into some other form of matter.  But what is our spririt/soul/spark/whatever you call it transformed into?  Or is it just a byproduct of the other things that make us up as a physical entity and that byproduct is no longer created when the body is broken down/transformed into dirt?

That's called the brain.

 

[kface]

So, I think the real question is, is there one?  In any capacity.

I think we have to prove that our spirit or conscious is not attached to our physical self.   I don't see any proof at this time to back that in anyway other than hope.

I think we can all excude all religious ones.  If you disagree please post why all other religions are wrong and yours is the one.  If you can do that, I will take the time and answer that question.

There is no death just like there is no life.  Anatomically speaking you are strictly startdust coming in and out existence...if you could see atoms instead of skin there would be nothing to distinguish us from a chair really.  Your atoms are held in this moment in this pattern, when you die they are released to be held in another form.  They aren't your atoms.  It's all connected

 

[kface]

Kind of off topic, but I am fascinated by the topic of the soul.  Maybe that is not even the word for it.  The thing that takes us from being just a conglomeration of cells and gives us the capacity to think, feel, reason, etc. When we die or matter is just broken down and transformed into some other form of matter.  But what is our spririt/soul/spark/whatever you call it transformed into?  Or is it just a byproduct of the other things that make us up as a physical entity and that byproduct is no longer created when the body is broken down/transformed into dirt?

Technically what you consider your soul is just electricity in your brain.  They could bring you into a lab right now and add a little electricity in certain places and you wouldn't even know that your other you used to exist

 

[Koya]

My thing was/is nothing.  I can't grasp, then when I die, just black, nothing mattered.

It goes back to the most basic of existential questions and "logic" of the greatest of all paradoxes.

That something can come from nothing - be that something the spark of our individual life, the universe or God. 

The only thing more ridiculous than that is that something has always been, without ever having been "created" because it's just always been there. 

Neirher is possible. Yet here we are.  Or maybe we are not... regardless, we likely won't be, one day (for about an hour, I guess that day was today for Hawaiians)

 

[kface]

It goes back to the most basic of existential questions and "logic" of the greatest of all paradoxes.

That something can come from nothing - be that something the spark of our individual life, the universe or God. 

The only thing more ridiculous than that is that something has always been, without ever having been "created" because it's just always been there. 

Neirher is possible. Yet here we are.  Or maybe we are not... regardless, we likely won't be, one day (for about an hour, I guess that day was today for Hawaiians)

Buddhist logic is that you can enter that space of nothing now and that nothingness is actually the only part of you that actually exists

 

[wikkidpissah]

What a killface!

I've had almost 25,000 chances to spend a day as wikkidpissah on this beautiful, miraculous, impatient rock, largely able to choose for myself what to do with em. I need the King of Everything winking at me every twelve seconds & heaven, too?! Pigs, allayez -

 

[Galileo]

I don't pretend to have any answers. I was raised to believe in God as a Lutheran but have never been overly religious. I chose to believe but understand all the arguments against. I'm not saying everything in the Bible is literally truth. I'm not a big fan of organized religion for many of the same reasons that a typical logical athiest would believe. At the same time I despise a certain approach that some athiests take that is condescending and dismissive of those who chose to have faith in something bigger than themselves. There is something very arrogant in thinking that man has it all figured out. I like some of the big overarching themes of my faith and that is good enough for me for now. Be willing to look at your actions. Try to be a better person. Ask for forgiveness and strength. Be thankful for what you have. Be grateful for your chance to live and for your loved ones. Be willing to believe in something greater than ourselves. Anyways, it's not perfect but that's how I roll.

Interesting...I have pretty much the opposite perspective.   I am an atheist...I am a physicist...No way would I ever claim to have it "all figured out".  In fact, quite the opposite is true.  I have tons of questions.  I then seek evidence to support possible answers to those questions, and what usually happens when I "find" an answer is that several more questions arise and present new challenges.  There are some questions that are unanswerable and others that have answers I will never know, and I am OK with that.  I despise the approach that uses "God" as the answer...It is God's will...It is God's plan...He works in mysterious ways...etc...  To me these are cop outs that stifle critical thinking.

 

[Galileo]

This is very close to my outlook. As a dreamy psychedelic ####, i've thought about this stuff quite a bit & this is how i see it:

We are gifted upon birth with our portion of animating energy, we improve it or not and its essence exists, in the dimension in which God lives & from which electromagnetism comes, for up-to-and-including all time.. I sense that that "spirit" - each our tinctures of distilled humanity, removed of memory - surrounds us in a field, which explains much of the phenomenology which caused me (plus a lil windowpane) to wonder about it in the first place

Huh?

 

[skol asylum]

Interesting...I have pretty much the opposite perspective.   I am an atheist...I am a physicist...No way would I ever claim to have it "all figured out".  In fact, quite the opposite is true.  I have tons of questions.  I then seek evidence to support possible answers to those questions, and what usually happens when I "find" an answer is that several more questions arise and present new challenges.  There are some questions that are unanswerable and others that have answers I will never know, and I am OK with that.  I despise the approach that uses "God" as the answer...It is God's will...It is God's plan...He works in mysterious ways...etc...  To me these are cop outs that stifle critical thinking.

Good response. I'm speaking more towards the mocking that I've seen towards those who choose to put themselves in a position of faith. I understand agnostics completely, but arrogant athiests IMO are no better than judgmental theists.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Technically what you consider your soul is just electricity in your brain.  They could bring you into a lab right now and add a little electricity in certain places and you wouldn't even know that your other you used to exist

Kind of what I am thinking - we have advanced to a level where we should be able to take the requisite things and whip up a human body in the lab, but what gives it that thing that makes it life?  They got robot muscles now, maybe we are on the verge.

 

[Koya]

Huh?

I think this is the Trump version of don't exercise cause you'll use up the finite amount of energy we were given at birth. 

 

[Politician Spock]

I don't pretend to have any answers. I was raised to believe in God as a Lutheran but have never been overly religious. I chose to believe but understand all the arguments against. I'm not saying everything in the Bible is literally truth. I'm not a big fan of organized religion for many of the same reasons that a typical logical athiest would believe. At the same time I despise a certain approach that some athiests take that is condescending and dismissive of those who chose to have faith in something bigger than themselves. There is something very arrogant in thinking that man has it all figured out. I like some of the big overarching themes of my faith and that is good enough for me for now. Be willing to look at your actions. Try to be a better person. Ask for forgiveness and strength. Be thankful for what you have. Be grateful for your chance to live and for your loved ones. Be willing to believe in something greater than ourselves. Anyways, it's not perfect but that's how I roll.

People who believe in a religion are dismissive of those who chose to have faith in a different religion. Say there are 300 hundred religions, religious people dismiss 299 of them. Atheists simply dismiss one more.

 

[skol asylum]

People who believe in a religion are dismissive of those who chose to have faith in a different religion. Say there are 300 hundred religions, religious people dismiss 299 of them. Atheists simply dismiss one more.

Some do. I do not.

 

[Ranethe]

There is no God/s, there is no "soul", there is no " afterlife". We are animals...albeit with more highly evolved cognitive function.

Death is just cessation of consciousness and biological function.

Consciousness is a byproduct of our biology. (The "lawnmower" theory if I recall philosophy accurately).

Humans are special only to the extent that they are more cognitively evolved.

No reason to believe in magic. The "divine" exists only in the mind of humans.

 

[prosopis]

People who believe in a religion are dismissive of those who chose to have faith in a different religion. Say there are 300 hundred religions, religious people dismiss 299 of them. Atheists simply dismiss one more.

Not true of many.

 

[modogg]

i think i am like mot in here with my thoughts of not a whole lot there after we pass, but the concept that we can create life has me thinking that something would have to occur after life as "us" ends. Honestly don't know, but hoping somebody can present a well thought argument for there being something after we pass 

 

[RokNRole]

Not true of many.

Many what?

 

[jamny]

I consider myself a hopeful agnostic. I would like to believe one day but as time goes on, it seems less likely. Until that point, I will continue to believe that when you die, you die. And your energy dissipates into your surroundings following a brief moment of pure bliss.

 

[pecorino]

Flatland is a good and pertinent read. I find it very likely that we humans are stuck in a three dimensional spatial existence with time moving inexorably forward in what some deem the 4th dimension. Anything “super-dimensional” wouldn’t lend itself to study by our scientists or our clergy. It would present itself as God-like in its ability to see all, manipulate things that otherwise should not be able to be manipulated and, possibly, move through time and space in a way that we cannot. And it could also possibly have created everything and be eternal (in our conception of time).

Does such a super-dimensional being exist? If it did, and it presented itself to us in what we might experience as “God” would we believe ourselves sane and rational? Would we be frustrated at the lack of God’s clarity in communicating with us? I’m a believer and I’m not here to proselytize. But I find the notion that we are just animals to be limiting and I find the notion that nothing exists that is “greater” than us as being arrogant.

Interstellar, too, may be pertinent and more fun than Flatland.

 

[-OZ-]

There is no God/s, there is no "soul", there is no " afterlife". We are animals...albeit with more highly evolved cognitive function.

Death is just cessation of consciousness and biological function.

Consciousness is a byproduct of our biology. (The "lawnmower" theory if I recall philosophy accurately).

Humans are special only to the extent that they are more cognitively evolved.

No reason to believe in magic. The "divine" exists only in the mind of humans.

Glad to see you have it all figured out. 

If there's one constant in human history it's that many things we "know" are consistently proven wrong. 

Nobody is going to prove the existence of God, today. But neither can you prove the nonexistence. You can say proof of a negative is harder than proof of a positive but it doesn't change the fact that we really do not know, really, either way. 

Personally, I believe there's something else out there, I want it to be God. But frankly I'd bet all religions are wrong in something. Except agnostics. 

 

[Godsbrother]

My thing was/is nothing.  I can't grasp, then when I die, just black, nothing mattered.

For those that can't conceive of what it will be like after they die all they need to do is remember what it was like before they were born.

 

[prosopis]

Many what?

religious folks regarding the statement I quoted. 

 

[bagger]

So, I think the real question is, is there one?  In any capacity.

I think we have to prove that our spirit or conscious is not attached to our physical self.   I don't see any proof at this time to back that in anyway other than hope.

I think we can all excude all religious ones.  If you disagree please post why all other religions are wrong and yours is the one.  If you can do that, I will take the time and answer that question.

It is really hard to imagine one day you will just become a pile of bones.

But you are right with respect to religion it’s not like just because you were born in the West and believe in Jesus you are in versus being born in Thailand and being a Buddhist.

Would like to think there is something else beyond. Certainly hope so.

 

[Scoresman]

I want to be cryogenically frozen and shot into space. I can be woken up either by aliens or humans once the technology exists to extend life somehow. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

I want to be cryogenically frozen and shot into space. I can be woken up either by aliens or humans once the technology exists to extend life somehow. 

Or you may just end up in a galactic zoo.

 

[Scoresman]

Or you may just end up in a galactic zoo.

That’s not so bad. I could spend my days flinging poo at all the alien kids that come see me. And they’ll probably have a hot chick there to with the expectation that we would mate. 

 

[Scoresman]

Or you may just end up in a galactic zoo.

That’s not so bad. I could spend my days flinging poo at all the alien kids that come see me. And they’ll probably have a hot chick there to with the expectation that we would mate. 

 

[kface]

Glad to see you have it all figured out. 

If there's one constant in human history it's that many things we "know" are consistently proven wrong. 

Nobody is going to prove the existence of God, today. But neither can you prove the nonexistence. You can say proof of a negative is harder than proof of a positive but it doesn't change the fact that we really do not know, really, either way. 

Personally, I believe there's something else out there, I want it to be God. But frankly I'd bet all religions are wrong in something. Except agnostics. 

But the problem with this argument is that then Scientologists are just as valid of a theory as anything else.  Same with pastafarians.  Same with pretty much any kooky religion or cult. 

It's just not how science or intelligence works. I can say that the sun is made of shiny puppies all jumping around in a circle and follow that with well it's true until you prove it wrong'.  

 

[IC FBGCav]

That’s not so bad. I could spend my days flinging poo at all the alien kids that come see me. And they’ll probably have a hot chick there to with the expectation that we would mate. 

Zoo's usually like the biggest one they can find.  HTH.

 

[El Floppo]

But the problem with this argument is that then Scientologists are just as valid of a theory as anything else.  Same with pastafarians.  Same with pretty much any kooky religion or cult. 

It's just not how science or intelligence works. I can say that the sun is made of shiny puppies all jumping around in a circle and follow that with well it's true until you prove it wrong'.  

IMO, religion is less about the afterlife (regardless of the various sales pitches) and more about the here and now- how you choose to live your life. the day to day workings of scientology works for some people. pastafarianism too ( I guess). etc, etc. 

but god, afterlife...  ... I'm agnostic for the reason that these are things I genuinely believe are unknowable or provable.

but there are elements of a lot of religions that I like for my own life- eg: a good gnocchi. and I'm also a believer that people should do what works for themselves in their lives- as long as it doesn't interfere in what works for me or anybody else. as such- knock yourself believing that joseph smith's stone and hat were the voice of god... or that you need to spend most of your income to ascend a sci-fi writer's ladder towards going clear... or any of the other tenets of organised religions, small and large.

but again, I promise- after I die, I'll do everything I can to reach out and let you guys know the truth about this stuff

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

If being a member of a certain group makes you act in a moral, civilized manner and you are not an ###hole to people then I fully support you choice.  If being in a religion or certain group makes you be a jerk to others then stop belonging to that religion or group.  Pretty simple really.  Don't be a ####.  Would be a great slogan but might need some work to make it palatable to holy people.

 

[kface]

IMO, religion is less about the afterlife (regardless of the various sales pitches) and more about the here and now- how you choose to live your life. the day to day workings of scientology works for some people. pastafarianism too ( I guess). etc, etc. 

but god, afterlife...  ... I'm agnostic for the reason that these are things I genuinely believe are unknowable or provable.

but there are elements of a lot of religions that I like for my own life- eg: a good gnocchi. and I'm also a believer that people should do what works for themselves in their lives- as long as it doesn't interfere in what works for me or anybody else. as such- knock yourself believing that joseph smith's stone and hat were the voice of god... or that you need to spend most of your income to ascend a sci-fi writer's ladder towards going clear... or any of the other tenets of organised religions, small and large.

but again, I promise- after I die, I'll do everything I can to reach out and let you guys know the truth about this stuff

I guess I would agree with that to only i would say religion is actually 100% about the after life.  The fear of death/unkown is that creepy uncle hiding in every single one of our brains.  We are all afraid of it.  Religion helps that fear by allowing people to release into something they can't control.  It's 100% about death

 

[wikkidpissah]

IMO, religion is less about the afterlife (regardless of the various sales pitches) and more about the here and now- how you choose to live your life. the day to day workings of scientology works for some people. pastafarianism too ( I guess). etc, etc. 

but god, afterlife...  ... I'm agnostic for the reason that these are things I genuinely believe are unknowable or provable.

but there are elements of a lot of religions that I like for my own life- eg: a good gnocchi. and I'm also a believer that people should do what works for themselves in their lives- asbut again, I promise- after I die, I'll do everything I can to reach out and let you guys know the truth about this stuff long as it doesn't interfere in what works for me or anybody else. as such- knock yourself believing that joseph smith's stone and hat were the voice of god... or that you need to spend most of your income to ascend a sci-fi writer's ladder towards going clear... or any of the other tenets of organised religions, small and large.

And, lost in discussion of scientology & pastafarianism is its equivalency in our ancient myths. Humans have been wondering about god since we became planters and came to trouble over the vagaries of sun & season. Later on, messiahs were sought because life was so hard in the Age Before Aspirin that it all had damn well better have some true & elevated purpose. And afterlife is the ultimate gravy, too. I've yet to see the religion that wasn't more about the needs of worshippers than the "WILL OF GOD", which makes it easy to group with the wildest modern credos because, even stipulating the credibility of being institutions for millenia, the motivation is similar.