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AL MVP : Justin Morneau (1 Viewer)
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PatsWillWin
Footballguy
I don't think Morneau was the most valuable player on his own team. Clearly Santana.
And I never got why people don't think pitchers could be the MVP - the Cy Young does not disqualify a pitcher from the MVP rave any more than a hitter's eligibility for the Silver Slugger. The "P" stands for PLAYER, and without a doubt the best and more important player on that team was Santana.
As for Jeter, he deserved this MVP slightly more than he did the Gold Glove over A-Gon. That being said, he STILL didn't really deserve this reward. You have to take into consideration the team he's on when considering the "Value" part of it, and the fact is if Jeter had gotten hurt instead of Sheffield, the Yankees would've been fine. He's on a team of superstars, they get Abreu at the deadline, and they still don't do anything in the playoffs. Where's the value?
I would've voted for Ortiz over Jeter. The Sox didn't make the playoffs, but he singlehandedly won them games on his own, and without him, the Sox would've done a lot worse than the Yankees would've done without A-Rod.
Yes. I'm a homer. If that bothers you ignore the Jeter/Ortiz stuff. The point is I still would've voted for Santana.
And I never got why people don't think pitchers could be the MVP - the Cy Young does not disqualify a pitcher from the MVP rave any more than a hitter's eligibility for the Silver Slugger. The "P" stands for PLAYER, and without a doubt the best and more important player on that team was Santana.
As for Jeter, he deserved this MVP slightly more than he did the Gold Glove over A-Gon. That being said, he STILL didn't really deserve this reward. You have to take into consideration the team he's on when considering the "Value" part of it, and the fact is if Jeter had gotten hurt instead of Sheffield, the Yankees would've been fine. He's on a team of superstars, they get Abreu at the deadline, and they still don't do anything in the playoffs. Where's the value?
I would've voted for Ortiz over Jeter. The Sox didn't make the playoffs, but he singlehandedly won them games on his own, and without him, the Sox would've done a lot worse than the Yankees would've done without A-Rod.
Yes. I'm a homer. If that bothers you ignore the Jeter/Ortiz stuff. The point is I still would've voted for Santana.
opticution
Footballguy
You don't want to acknowledge that Nash is South African. That might be part of it.How does that have anything to do with hating South Africans?Why do you hate South Africans?Born in Johannesburg, South Africa, Steve Nash's parents relocated to Canada, settling in Victoria, British Columbia before he was two years old. -Quote from WikipediaOh... and if you read the part were it says nationality, it also points to him being Canadian.Sweet!Stephen John Nash born February 7, 1974 in Johannesburg, South Africa.Sweet.Interesting...NHL MVP = Joe Thornton (Canadian)NBA MVP = Steve Nash (Canadian)MLB MVP = Justin Morneau (Canadian)NFL MVP = ??? Clearly we know who the better athletes are!!!
SKribbles
Footballguy
Or that I am acknowledging his current nationality and not the birth country in which he lived for less than two years?Try again bud.You don't want to acknowledge that Nash is South African. That might be part of it.How does that have anything to do with hating South Africans?Why do you hate South Africans?Born in Johannesburg, South Africa, Steve Nash's parents relocated to Canada, settling in Victoria, British Columbia before he was two years old. -Quote from WikipediaOh... and if you read the part were it says nationality, it also points to him being Canadian.Sweet!Stephen John Nash born February 7, 1974 in Johannesburg, South Africa.Sweet.Interesting...NHL MVP = Joe Thornton (Canadian)NBA MVP = Steve Nash (Canadian)MLB MVP = Justin Morneau (Canadian)NFL MVP = ??? Clearly we know who the better athletes are!!!
Funkley
Collar: Up
Santana will go 18-20 with a good era and lead the league in strikeouts if the Twins win 69 games or 96. He gets his no matter what. The difference this year is that the offense stepped up and did it's share to win. The Twins started to win when Morneau started to pound the ball. He was easily the Twins MVP in 2006.
opticution
Footballguy
This is sad and confusing.
Eephus
Footballguy
The BWAA has historically overvalued RBI when voting for the MVP award. Again, they went for the guy with the gaudy RBI totals and the hot second half.
I've never been a Jeter fan but I felt he was the most deserving a year when there were no huge standouts. The most surprising thing to me was the poor showing by Joe Mauer. I'd argue he was a more valuable position player on the Twins than Morneau, but his numbers aren't as eye-catching other than his AVG. Mauer received zero votes for 1st or 2nd and one idiot left him out of his top ten altogether.
I've never been a Jeter fan but I felt he was the most deserving a year when there were no huge standouts. The most surprising thing to me was the poor showing by Joe Mauer. I'd argue he was a more valuable position player on the Twins than Morneau, but his numbers aren't as eye-catching other than his AVG. Mauer received zero votes for 1st or 2nd and one idiot left him out of his top ten altogether.
whoknew
Footballguy
More good stuff from Neyer (before the announcement today):
As you might recall from Monday's column, those of an Aristotelian bent might split the population into two camps: empiricists and intuitionists. And the second-easiest place to see the difference between the two camps is among the sports media (the easiest place is the conflict between scientists and creationists).
Granted, nobody is completely empirical or completely intuitional; we're all somewhere on a continuum between the two. But there is a divide here, and essentially it comes down to this: An empiricist would consider Travis Hafner -- and especially a healthy-for-six-months Travis Hafner -- to be the American League's Most Valuable Player, and an intuitionist would not. The intuitionist is happy to divine the meaning of "most valuable," while the empiricist would rather not divine anything at all, and focus on something quantifiable, like who was the best player in the league.
In 2006, Hafner was the best hitter in the American League, per plate appearance. Because he missed the season's last month, he finished just sixth in runs created, but if he'd played out the season he certainly would have been No. 1 in that category. Nevertheless, Hafner would not have been considered a serious MVP candidate, because his accomplishments, however impressive, would have come with a fourth-place team, and MVP voters don't like fourth-place players unless they just don't have any reasonable choice.
The intuitionists have decided, not uniformly but collectively, that the most valuable player in a league is the one who piles up gaudy batting stats for a postseason team. There are the occasional exceptions; Barry Bonds has been MVP seven times, including three years in which his team didn't qualify for the tournament (though it was close all three times), and you probably heard about Ryan Howard. But it's a good rule of thumb.
So in the American League this year, the intuitionists have three obvious choices: three players, on two postseason teams, who racked up shiny statistics. Of course, there were four postseason teams, but neither the Tigers nor the A's featured anybody worth considering. (And yes, somebody will vote for Frank Thomas, but a player with 11 doubles and no defensive or baserunning value needs to drive in more than 114 runs to have a realistic chance.)
That leaves the Twins and the Yankees, and here's where we find our viable candidates. The Twins have the batting champion and the No. 2 RBI man, and if it were the same player we could anoint our MVP right now. But of course, it's not the same player; Joe Mauer batted .347 and Justin Morneau knocked in 130 runs (behind only David Ortiz's 137). Meanwhile, the Yankees have Derek Jeter, whose .343 batting average trailed only Mauer.
I've been discussing Jeter as a serious MVP candidate, empirically, for some months now. And whenever I do, I get jumped on by a bunch of Red Sox fans.
Jeter's a lousy shortstop!
Jeter's getting credit for intangibles that he doesn't deserve!
If Jeter played for any other team, he wouldn't win anything!
All of that is probably true. At the very least, empirically, we know he's not a good shortstop. Yet none of it invalidates the empirical case for him as MVP. Was Derek Jeter the best player in the American League this season? If he wasn't, he was awfully close. Jeter's OPS ranked just 15th in the league, which is not at all impressive for an MVP candidate. Neverthless, because he played nearly every game, batted near the top of the order, and stole 34 bases (while being rarely caught), he actually led the American League in runs created, with 132. He also, purely as a hitter, led the league in Value Over Replacement Player (just a hair ahead of Hafner). If Jeter actually deserved his Gold Glove, he would be the empiricists' only viable MVP candidate.
But of course, he didn't deserve his Gold Glove, which opens the door for a few others. Hafner and Mauer, for example. Also Grady Sizemore, Carlos Guillen, and Miguel Tejada, who don't quite stack up to Jeter as hitter-runners but might make up some of the difference with their gloves and arms. Let's look at their VORPs (courtesy of Baseball Prospectus) and, just for empirical kicks, their Win Shares as well:
VORP WS
Jeter 80.5 33
Hafner 79.7 25
Sizemore 69.1 25
Mauer 66.9 31
Guillen 66.3 26
Tejada 65.9 23
Folks, I think we have two winners: Jeter and Mauer. Ortiz and Manny Ramirez, not pictured here, rank third and fourth in Win Shares, and third and seventh in VORP, respectively, but because they have little or no defensive value and don't rank first in anything, it's difficult, empirically, to make an MVP case for either.
The intuitionists won't argue for them, either, because the Red Sox finished in third place. The Indians were even worse, which will disqualify not only Hafner but also Sizemore. Guillen and Tejada, shortstops like Jeter, suffer by comparison. And there really aren't any other strong candidates, even for the intuitionist. For a while there was a lot of talk about Jermaine Dye. But a corner outfielder who finishes fifth in the league in RBI and plays for a third-place team? Hardly.
So again, if you're an intuitionist, you have three choices: Jeter, Mauer, Morneau. If you're an empiricist, you have three choices: Jeter, Mauer, Hafner.
Empiricists can't go for Morneau, because he played first base and his OPS was just ninth-best in the league. Intuitionists can't go for Hafner because he played for a fourth-place team (and missed a month to boot).
This year happens to be a wonderful case where the intuitionists and the empiricists, looking at different evidence and arguing from different original premises, probably will arrive at roughly the same conclusion. Jeter's probably going to win, and Mauer's probably going to finish second or third. But remember, the great majority of MVP voters are intuitionists. So don't be too surprised if Morneau's 130 RBI carry the day.
As you might recall from Monday's column, those of an Aristotelian bent might split the population into two camps: empiricists and intuitionists. And the second-easiest place to see the difference between the two camps is among the sports media (the easiest place is the conflict between scientists and creationists).
Granted, nobody is completely empirical or completely intuitional; we're all somewhere on a continuum between the two. But there is a divide here, and essentially it comes down to this: An empiricist would consider Travis Hafner -- and especially a healthy-for-six-months Travis Hafner -- to be the American League's Most Valuable Player, and an intuitionist would not. The intuitionist is happy to divine the meaning of "most valuable," while the empiricist would rather not divine anything at all, and focus on something quantifiable, like who was the best player in the league.
In 2006, Hafner was the best hitter in the American League, per plate appearance. Because he missed the season's last month, he finished just sixth in runs created, but if he'd played out the season he certainly would have been No. 1 in that category. Nevertheless, Hafner would not have been considered a serious MVP candidate, because his accomplishments, however impressive, would have come with a fourth-place team, and MVP voters don't like fourth-place players unless they just don't have any reasonable choice.
The intuitionists have decided, not uniformly but collectively, that the most valuable player in a league is the one who piles up gaudy batting stats for a postseason team. There are the occasional exceptions; Barry Bonds has been MVP seven times, including three years in which his team didn't qualify for the tournament (though it was close all three times), and you probably heard about Ryan Howard. But it's a good rule of thumb.
So in the American League this year, the intuitionists have three obvious choices: three players, on two postseason teams, who racked up shiny statistics. Of course, there were four postseason teams, but neither the Tigers nor the A's featured anybody worth considering. (And yes, somebody will vote for Frank Thomas, but a player with 11 doubles and no defensive or baserunning value needs to drive in more than 114 runs to have a realistic chance.)
That leaves the Twins and the Yankees, and here's where we find our viable candidates. The Twins have the batting champion and the No. 2 RBI man, and if it were the same player we could anoint our MVP right now. But of course, it's not the same player; Joe Mauer batted .347 and Justin Morneau knocked in 130 runs (behind only David Ortiz's 137). Meanwhile, the Yankees have Derek Jeter, whose .343 batting average trailed only Mauer.
I've been discussing Jeter as a serious MVP candidate, empirically, for some months now. And whenever I do, I get jumped on by a bunch of Red Sox fans.
Jeter's a lousy shortstop!
Jeter's getting credit for intangibles that he doesn't deserve!
If Jeter played for any other team, he wouldn't win anything!
All of that is probably true. At the very least, empirically, we know he's not a good shortstop. Yet none of it invalidates the empirical case for him as MVP. Was Derek Jeter the best player in the American League this season? If he wasn't, he was awfully close. Jeter's OPS ranked just 15th in the league, which is not at all impressive for an MVP candidate. Neverthless, because he played nearly every game, batted near the top of the order, and stole 34 bases (while being rarely caught), he actually led the American League in runs created, with 132. He also, purely as a hitter, led the league in Value Over Replacement Player (just a hair ahead of Hafner). If Jeter actually deserved his Gold Glove, he would be the empiricists' only viable MVP candidate.
But of course, he didn't deserve his Gold Glove, which opens the door for a few others. Hafner and Mauer, for example. Also Grady Sizemore, Carlos Guillen, and Miguel Tejada, who don't quite stack up to Jeter as hitter-runners but might make up some of the difference with their gloves and arms. Let's look at their VORPs (courtesy of Baseball Prospectus) and, just for empirical kicks, their Win Shares as well:
VORP WS
Jeter 80.5 33
Hafner 79.7 25
Sizemore 69.1 25
Mauer 66.9 31
Guillen 66.3 26
Tejada 65.9 23
Folks, I think we have two winners: Jeter and Mauer. Ortiz and Manny Ramirez, not pictured here, rank third and fourth in Win Shares, and third and seventh in VORP, respectively, but because they have little or no defensive value and don't rank first in anything, it's difficult, empirically, to make an MVP case for either.
The intuitionists won't argue for them, either, because the Red Sox finished in third place. The Indians were even worse, which will disqualify not only Hafner but also Sizemore. Guillen and Tejada, shortstops like Jeter, suffer by comparison. And there really aren't any other strong candidates, even for the intuitionist. For a while there was a lot of talk about Jermaine Dye. But a corner outfielder who finishes fifth in the league in RBI and plays for a third-place team? Hardly.
So again, if you're an intuitionist, you have three choices: Jeter, Mauer, Morneau. If you're an empiricist, you have three choices: Jeter, Mauer, Hafner.
Empiricists can't go for Morneau, because he played first base and his OPS was just ninth-best in the league. Intuitionists can't go for Hafner because he played for a fourth-place team (and missed a month to boot).
This year happens to be a wonderful case where the intuitionists and the empiricists, looking at different evidence and arguing from different original premises, probably will arrive at roughly the same conclusion. Jeter's probably going to win, and Mauer's probably going to finish second or third. But remember, the great majority of MVP voters are intuitionists. So don't be too surprised if Morneau's 130 RBI carry the day.
Funkley
Collar: Up
I just don't understand this perception. Mauer had a pretty hot start to the season and it didn't matter at all until Morneau began hitting behind him. As it was, Mauer hit them out of a lot of innings and had a relatively terrible 2nd half. I'd trade 30 points off his batting average if the guy could consistently hit the ball beyond 2nd base.
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opticution
Footballguy
I don't like the VORP argument at all. This is the MVP, not the best player with respect to the others playing at his position.As for Mauer vs. Morneau, Mauer had a better RC/27. If you look at the leaderboard for stats, Morneau barely makes it into the top 5 for anything important. RBIs are so overrated it hurts. I'm a fan of Justin's, but he probably wouldn't have cracked my top 8 in MVP voting.
Funkley
Collar: Up
I'm not going to argue about the RBI but power numbers have traditionally won the MVP vote. Good or bad. My problem with Mauer is that he was at his best when the Twins were at their worst and at his worst during the Twins best. They win the division easily if he doesn't fall apart in August. Morneau gets my vote because of how unexpected his June-September was. He literally came from nowhere to be this good.
Funkley
Collar: Up
This is damn good posting btw.I wish BBT was still around.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Yeah, he's probably so upset it looks like he'll have to go home and have some sex with Jessica Biel...poor guy.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
They just debated this on Around the Horn, and when Jay Mariotti, whom I usually cannot stand, started to bring up the point about Jeter, being the captain, doing nothing about the whole A-Rod fiasco, Tony Reali immediately muted him and said, "I am not going to let you say that." Pfft...just another example of the Jeter worship and how they try to silence anyone who says anything bad about him.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
OK we get it, you don't like Derek Jeter. He can just take his rings, paycheck, assorted hardware, Jessica Biel and go home.
Eephus
Footballguy
I give Funkley's opinion a lot of weight because he follows the Twins on a daily basis and as such, is in a better position to measure Morneau vs. Mauer than 13/14ths of the MVP voters.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Well, Tony K does have a point. I don't have a problem with Jeter's handling of the A-Rod situation, but let's say I did. Let's say Jeter handled it horribly, and was a terrible teammate, and all of the NY players and media hated him and thought he had no leadership qualities.Barry Bonds has 7 MVPs.
opticution
Footballguy
With stats like he had in 2006, he's a poor man's Shannon Stewart.
Barry
Footballguy
Gopher State
Footballguy
It's good to see a non hyper media market player win the MVP. When you look what Morneau did for the Twins this year, helping them to turn around a lost season into something positive, you got to feel good for him.
Great year by the Twins a Cy Young winner and MVP on the same team, I wonder how many times that has happen in the same season.
Now if the Twins can trade for Jennings from CO, they be a strong team in 07. Looking forward to a great race in 07 with the Tigers (I hope they hire someone to teach their pitchers how to field without errors, White Sox, and maybe even the Indians.
Great year by the Twins a Cy Young winner and MVP on the same team, I wonder how many times that has happen in the same season.
Now if the Twins can trade for Jennings from CO, they be a strong team in 07. Looking forward to a great race in 07 with the Tigers (I hope they hire someone to teach their pitchers how to field without errors, White Sox, and maybe even the Indians.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
I would have voted for either Jeter or Mauer. After those guys I would have taken Ortiz, Santana, Dye, Thomas, Hafner before I would have voted for Morneau.
All you folks talking about how Morneau really put the team on his back, and that is the reason why the twins made the playoffs are being ridiculous.
Morneau put up most of his numbers in June and July. He disappeared in August and September. Hitting a pathetic 6 HRs in those 2 months, and slugging worse than only April.
He won because he had alot of RBI. Howard won because he had alot of HRs. Neither of them deserved it. Baseball awards suck. I think of them as I do probowl selections.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
And another thing.
Arguments that start with, "well, I saw him, and he....."
well, those arguments suck
Arguments that start with, "well, I saw him, and he....."
well, those arguments suck
Capella
Footballguy
ummm....dawgtrails said:You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Vikes Fan said:Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.wilked said:At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
opticution
Footballguy
Sometimes I love how deliciously stupid this place is.ummm....dawgtrails said:You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Vikes Fan said:Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.wilked said:At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Where did I say I hate Derek Jeter? In fact, while I dislike the Yankees as an organization, Jeter is one of the players that is sometimes hard to dislike, as he always plays hard and is clutch. I have lots of respect for him as a player. However, I think he is slightly overrated at times (which is not his fault). But just because I think he is overrated does not mean I do not like him.ThisGuy said:
dawgtrails
Footballguy
cat got your tongue?ummm....dawgtrails said:You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Vikes Fan said:Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.wilked said:At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
mr. fruley
Footballguy
Does anyone know if Ortiz is going to hit 3rd or 4th for the Orioles next year?
TIA.
TIA.
Capella
Footballguy
No. Cat have your brain?cat got your tongue?ummm....dawgtrails said:You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Vikes Fan said:Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.wilked said:At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
dawgtrails
Footballguy
No, but the booze has.Im an idiot. Please ignore me for the next 4 daysNo. Cat have your brain?cat got your tongue?ummm....dawgtrails said:You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Vikes Fan said:Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.wilked said:At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
Capella
Footballguy
Not a problem.No, but the booze has.Im an idiot. Please ignore me for the next 4 daysNo. Cat have your brain?cat got your tongue?ummm....dawgtrails said:You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Vikes Fan said:Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.wilked said:At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
MrJimmy
Footballguy
GDB you Capella.####### buzzkill.ummm....dawgtrails said:You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Vikes Fan said:Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.wilked said:At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
Statorama
Footballguy
Best argument I've heard so far that this award has no merit.
RnR
Footballguy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Last time was the '62 Dodgers.
RnR
Footballguy
Sad part is this should've been the '06 Cardinals. Carpenter and Pujols were robbedPotential whinedown here.
Funkley
Collar: Up
"After June 8, Morneau had the best batting average in the Majors (.362). In that stretch, Morneau also had the most hits in baseball (145) and the most RBIs in the AL (92). And it doesn't take much to link the Twins' turnaround to Morneau's emergence, as the club was 25-33 through June 7 before going 71-33 the rest of the season, the best record in the Majors during that span."Ignore you for 4 days? I'll take the over.You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
I would have voted for either Jeter or Mauer. After those guys I would have taken Ortiz, Santana, Dye, Thomas, Hafner before I would have voted for Morneau.
All you folks talking about how Morneau really put the team on his back, and that is the reason why the twins made the playoffs are being ridiculous.
Morneau put up most of his numbers in June and July. He disappeared in August and September. Hitting a pathetic 6 HRs in those 2 months, and slugging worse than only April.
He won because he had alot of RBI. Howard won because he had alot of HRs. Neither of them deserved it. Baseball awards suck. I think of them as I do probowl selections.
oso diablo
Footballguy
If there's anything that excites the BWAA as much or more than RBI, though, it's a rock-solid middle infielder (esp a SS) or catcher for a league's top team. This vote, in historical context, is quite surprising, almost shocking to me. This is most logically interpreted as an anti-Yankee vote (or more precisely, an anti-salary-disparity vote).Consider the case of 1965, when 2 Twins finished 1-2 in the AL MVP vote. Twins SS Zoilo Versalles hit 273 / 319 / 462, while teammate OF Tony Oliva hit 321 / 378 / 491, but the SS won.Or 1976, when Thurman Munson beat out George Brett, going 302 / 337 / 432 to Brett's 333 / 377 / 462.Probably the most famous example is 1942, when Yankee 2B Joe Gordon edged Ted Williams. Gordon's line was a respectable 322 / 409 / 491, but the Splendid Splinter socked 356 / 499 / 648.Maybe this is a thing of the past now, as voters have gravitated (like chicks) to the long ball and the (can't writers figure out how team-dependent this stat is?) RBI, but i thought (hoped?) that post-steroid controversy, we might get back to understanding the game a little better. Jeter was the perfect candidate. Well, perfect except for the pinstripes.
the moops
Footballguy
May I ask why you are picking June 8th as the cutoff day? Oh, I get it, because it proves your point.Maybe if Morneau hit a little better earlier than his team wouldnt have been 25-33?"After June 8, Morneau had the best batting average in the Majors (.362). In that stretch, Morneau also had the most hits in baseball (145) and the most RBIs in the AL (92). And it doesn't take much to link the Twins' turnaround to Morneau's emergence, as the club was 25-33 through June 7 before going 71-33 the rest of the season, the best record in the Majors during that span."Ignore you for 4 days? I'll take the over.You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
I would have voted for either Jeter or Mauer. After those guys I would have taken Ortiz, Santana, Dye, Thomas, Hafner before I would have voted for Morneau.
All you folks talking about how Morneau really put the team on his back, and that is the reason why the twins made the playoffs are being ridiculous.
Morneau put up most of his numbers in June and July. He disappeared in August and September. Hitting a pathetic 6 HRs in those 2 months, and slugging worse than only April.
He won because he had alot of RBI. Howard won because he had alot of HRs. Neither of them deserved it. Baseball awards suck. I think of them as I do probowl selections.
I hate these kind of arguments. Baseball is 162 games. You dont give someone an award because they performed great in the last month, or great in the first month. You look at their total numbers/impact. By doing such, I dont know how Morneau could be the MVP. Oh well
RnR
Footballguy
While Morneau was highly effective later in the season for the Twins and the numbers show that when Morneau hits, the Twins win.... this guy does have a point.May I ask why you are picking June 8th as the cutoff day? Oh, I get it, because it proves your point.Maybe if Morneau hit a little better earlier than his team wouldnt have been 25-33?"After June 8, Morneau had the best batting average in the Majors (.362). In that stretch, Morneau also had the most hits in baseball (145) and the most RBIs in the AL (92). And it doesn't take much to link the Twins' turnaround to Morneau's emergence, as the club was 25-33 through June 7 before going 71-33 the rest of the season, the best record in the Majors during that span."Ignore you for 4 days? I'll take the over.You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
I would have voted for either Jeter or Mauer. After those guys I would have taken Ortiz, Santana, Dye, Thomas, Hafner before I would have voted for Morneau.
All you folks talking about how Morneau really put the team on his back, and that is the reason why the twins made the playoffs are being ridiculous.
Morneau put up most of his numbers in June and July. He disappeared in August and September. Hitting a pathetic 6 HRs in those 2 months, and slugging worse than only April.
He won because he had alot of RBI. Howard won because he had alot of HRs. Neither of them deserved it. Baseball awards suck. I think of them as I do probowl selections.
I hate these kind of arguments. Baseball is 162 games. You dont give someone an award because they performed great in the last month, or great in the first month. You look at their total numbers/impact. By doing such, I dont know how Morneau could be the MVP. Oh well
the moops
Footballguy
Fair enough. I tend to look at total year numbers, but I can see this side of it.I wish the writers would be required to explain their reasoning behind their votes. There are some staggeringly bad selesctions. One guy had Jeter 6th. One guy didnt even have Mauer in his top 10, but he did manage to have AJ Pierzynski in there.While Morneau was highly effective later in the season for the Twins and the numbers show that when Morneau hits, the Twins win.... this guy does have a point.May I ask why you are picking June 8th as the cutoff day? Oh, I get it, because it proves your point.Maybe if Morneau hit a little better earlier than his team wouldnt have been 25-33?"After June 8, Morneau had the best batting average in the Majors (.362). In that stretch, Morneau also had the most hits in baseball (145) and the most RBIs in the AL (92). And it doesn't take much to link the Twins' turnaround to Morneau's emergence, as the club was 25-33 through June 7 before going 71-33 the rest of the season, the best record in the Majors during that span."Ignore you for 4 days? I'll take the over.You, my friend have no idea what you are talking about.The Twins have the best, or second best (ortiz) DH in baseball. Have you not heard of Travis Hafner?Why do you say that? Morneau has actually improved greatly as a fielder. He was quite solid actually. I haven't looked up his stats or anything, but he played fine at first. If he was really that bad, they would have had him DH, being they really didn't have anyone fit in that role.At least he has that well-deserved Gold Glove - what a defender!
I would have voted for either Jeter or Mauer. After those guys I would have taken Ortiz, Santana, Dye, Thomas, Hafner before I would have voted for Morneau.
All you folks talking about how Morneau really put the team on his back, and that is the reason why the twins made the playoffs are being ridiculous.
Morneau put up most of his numbers in June and July. He disappeared in August and September. Hitting a pathetic 6 HRs in those 2 months, and slugging worse than only April.
He won because he had alot of RBI. Howard won because he had alot of HRs. Neither of them deserved it. Baseball awards suck. I think of them as I do probowl selections.
I hate these kind of arguments. Baseball is 162 games. You dont give someone an award because they performed great in the last month, or great in the first month. You look at their total numbers/impact. By doing such, I dont know how Morneau could be the MVP. Oh well
RnR
Footballguy
I said the exact same thing in the NL MVP thread. Some of these guys don't even look at the numbers.
the moops
Footballguy
Or they look at only average, or homeruns, or RBIs. Or some combination of those 3.
