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Alec Baldwin killed a woman on set with prop gun (1 Viewer)

Max Power said:
From the attached regulations it's pretty clear that guidelines were not followed. Plenty of blame to go around. 
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Absolutely. This can't be a 'single point of failure' thing. At least 3 people have to fail in their jobs for this to happen. There are multiple redundancies if everything goes right. Unfortunately that's a lesson learned the hard way, but based on what accidents have happened in the past, the rules, when followed, would prevent the same thing happening again. A lot went wrong here.

 
Max Power said:
I would have guessed the insurance involved in having a real gun on set would offset CGI costs. 
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I’ve been on a “Supernatural” kick lately(one of the leads is in Rust), and I remember one of them saying that when they were using weapons, they could have used CGI for the muzzle flash, but it was expensive, and I think it’s hard to duplicate the recoil that a gun has when fired. I do remember in a blooper reel cut that one of the villains of the show had a gun pointed down that went off, but had a blank round and wasn’t pointed at anything or anyone important.

 
Long, fascinating thread by a veteran armorer.

TLDR: he (assume it's a guy) doesn't know exactly what happened, but based on what he has heard there's no way this should have occurred if basic safety protocols were followed. An accident like this would require multiple points of failure, and the system has multiple redundancies built in for exactly that reason

 
ignatiusjreilly said:
Long, fascinating thread by a veteran armorer.

TLDR: he (assume it's a guy) doesn't know exactly what happened, but based on what he has heard there's no way this should have occurred if basic safety protocols were followed. An accident like this would require multiple points of failure, and the system has multiple redundancies built in for exactly that reason
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If TMZ’s report is correct, this is really really bad.

Using that gun off set for target shooting and then bringing it back in set?! Having actual bullets on set and keeping them near the blanks!? Total insanity.

 
djmich said:
I feel terrible for the victim.  Alec Baldwin is a mean spirited bully, who has committed the same fault that he, as evidenced above, piled on other people for.  I mean he's an ####### and he embodies twitter.

I feel as bad for him as when the bully goes to kick the little kid and falls down hurting himself.  I wince for a minute and shake my head at the loser.
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SO Cheney didn't load his own weapon and was under the assumption that he was shooting blanks?

 
Parrothead said:
did this happen during filming-  if so. i wonder if the actual incident is on film?
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Based on the safety standards the armorer on Twitter outlined, you'd think so (blanks only used during filming).

Of course, this movie wasn't following the same protocols, so who knows. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I have no idea who you are, but [icon] is a solid poster.  Take this sort of thing elsewhere.
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ITT he has clearly proven otherwise.  Probably just an exception to the rule, nonetheless, past body of work should not exempt someone from being called out for the garbage that is going in here.

 
Reports now are that it happened when Baldwin was practicing a seated crossdraw. 

This just somehow keeps getting more and more ridiculous.

 
pollardsvision said:
Reports now are that it happened when Baldwin was practicing a seated crossdraw. 

This just somehow keeps getting more and more ridiculous.
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What does that mean? "Practicing a seated crossdraw"?

 
eoMMan said:
What does that mean? "Practicing a seated crossdraw"?
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Let's say you are right handed.  The gun would be carried on your left, "front hip" area, with the butt positioned on an angle.

You would "reach across" with you right hand to grab the gun when drawing

 
A "cold gun" means it should have been empty, correct?  Not even blanks.  I can see someone not realizing something is stuck in the barrel of a gun, and a blank is fired and shoots it out.  But how to you proclaim something is "cold" and not realize there is at least a blank loaded?  I assume this was a revolver too, so not like you have to check the chamber.

 
eoMMan said:
What does that mean? "Practicing a seated crossdraw"?
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What belljr said.

And most firing ranges won't even let you practice a holster draw because the chances of accidentally pulling the trigger are so high. 

Heck, if it was an old Colt single action, the trigger wouldn't even need to be pulled for it to fire. They can fire if something accidentally hits the hammer (which led to the term shooting yourself in the foot).

 
belljr said:
eoMMan said:
What does that mean? "Practicing a seated crossdraw"?
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Let's say you are right handed.  The gun would be carried on your left, "front hip" area, with the butt positioned on an angle.

You would "reach across" with you right hand to grab the gun when drawing
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A little more detail about the proceedings -- director Joel Souza spoke to investigators and his statements have been released:

Joel Souza, director of the film "Rust," was shot in the shoulder and director of photography Halyna Hutchins, 42, was killed when the prop gun went off during a rehearsal at the Bonanza Creek Ranch in Santa Fe Thursday.

Souza spoke to investigators Friday, according to the affidavit released by the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office on Sunday.

Souza told them Baldwin was "sitting in a pew in a church building setting, and he was practicing a cross draw," the affidavit said. A cross draw is when a shooter pulls the weapon from a holster on the opposite side of the body from the draw hand.
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Additionally, someone asked upthread whether or not the camera was rolling and may have thus caught the shooting on film. In fact, the camera was not rolling.

Both Souza and Russell acknowledged difficulties on set that day because of a walkout of some members of the camera department over payment and housing. Due to the labor problems, Souza said they had only one camera available to use that day, and it was not recording at the time of the incident.
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Capella said:
If you’ve seen the “conversation” and memes on social media, along with this thread, you may understand why this is so discouraging to me. This is something that we should almost unilaterally agree on - a truly tragic loss of life, caused by what is almost certainly a terrible accident committed by somebody with absolutely no intent of doing so.

And yet all we can do is take sides, assign blame to the likely blameless and make fun of somebody who may not be your favorite person because of their political views, but still deserves empathy. 
 

We are a truly broken population - this event really signifies that although there are hundreds of others, and imo social media is almost 100% to blame. Sucks. 
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The  parallel here is interesting. Are guns to blame for so many deaths or do we blame the people pulling the trigger? Do we blame the people posting horrible things and believing anything they read if it aligns with their POV or do we blame the social media apps? How much guilt does the NRA or gun manufacturers have? How much guilt does theTwitter corporation or Mark Zuckerberg get? 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
A "cold gun" means it should have been empty, correct?  Not even blanks.  I can see someone not realizing something is stuck in the barrel of a gun, and a blank is fired and shoots it out.  But how to you proclaim something is "cold" and not realize there is at least a blank loaded?  I assume this was a revolver too, so not like you have to check the chamber.
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Revolvers are somewhat notorious for people getting lazy and seeing the side barrels empty and not checking the up barrels.  

 
belljr said:
Let's say you are right handed.  The gun would be carried on your left, "front hip" area, with the butt positioned on an angle.

You would "reach across" with you right hand to grab the gun when drawing
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What was he drawing, a portrait, landscape or just doodles?

 
Alonzo Mosely said:
ITT he has clearly proven otherwise.  Probably just an exception to the rule, nonetheless, past body of work should not exempt someone from being called out for the garbage that is going in here.
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:lol:  Jesus Christ... somebody got a timeout for crazy and had to dig out an old alias. 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
A "cold gun" means it should have been empty, correct?  Not even blanks.  I can see someone not realizing something is stuck in the barrel of a gun, and a blank is fired and shoots it out.  But how to you proclaim something is "cold" and not realize there is at least a blank loaded?  I assume this was a revolver too, so not like you have to check the chamber.
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“Well, the gun is sitting here on this cart and I didn’t put anything in it so it must be empty, therefore it’s cold.”

That’s how that happens. Just sheer laziness/carelessness would be my guess.

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
A "cold gun" means it should have been empty, correct?  Not even blanks.  I can see someone not realizing something is stuck in the barrel of a gun, and a blank is fired and shoots it out.  But how to you proclaim something is "cold" and not realize there is at least a blank loaded?  I assume this was a revolver too, so not like you have to check the chamber.
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Still, at least 3 people have to screw up. 

The armorer not keeping on top of the weapon's status and checking if it's clear. Leaving guns unattended is insane. 

The AD not keeping on top of the armorer and handling a gun without checking if it's clear. 

The actor not personally checking the gun to confirm it's clear. 

And, the actor pointing a gun, unloaded or not, at a person. 

Also, to me, there's a major difference between being told a gun is empty, then using it without checking, versus being told a gun has blanks in it and then finding out it's real ammo. Someone gets handed a gun and told "It's empty, don't worry", they should still personally check the gun. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect an actor on set to know by sight the difference between blanks, prop rounds, and real rounds. Which is why in both cases the actor should never be pointing at a person. 

Gun safety rule on a set are strict for a reason and it's clear they weren't even close to being followed here. 

 
Runkle said:
Still, at least 3 people have to screw up. 

The armorer not keeping on top of the weapon's status and checking if it's clear. Leaving guns unattended is insane. 

The AD not keeping on top of the armorer and handling a gun without checking if it's clear. 

The actor not personally checking the gun to confirm it's clear. 

And, the actor pointing a gun, unloaded or not, at a person. 

Also, to me, there's a major difference between being told a gun is empty, then using it without checking, versus being told a gun has blanks in it and then finding out it's real ammo. Someone gets handed a gun and told "It's empty, don't worry", they should still personally check the gun. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect an actor on set to know by sight the difference between blanks, prop rounds, and real rounds. Which is why in both cases the actor should never be pointing at a person. 

Gun safety rule on a set are strict for a reason and it's clear they weren't even close to being followed here. 
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How do you manage safety for shots were people are actually pointing guns at eachother?  I mean let's talk squid game for example. They point guns at people, alot.  

 
Summer Wheat said:
Wow, that is horrible. Well looks like a wrongful death suit is in Baldwins future or maybe manslaughter charges if this was overlooked ?
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The last death on set I can recall in the US was Sarah Jones, who was hit by a train when filming a scene on a bridge. The crew was not aware the train tracks on the bridge were actively in use. The producer/director of the film was found to be negligent and spent a year in jail for involuntary manslaughter.

 
culdeus said:
How do you manage safety for shots were people are actually pointing guns at eachother?  I mean let's talk squid game for example. They point guns at people, alot.  
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If it's a 'real' gun, you "cheat" the angle. The actor aims three feet to the side and the camera just lines it up at an angle that looks like it's aimed at the guy.

The easy alternative is to have only plastic guns on set, or ones with the barrels plugged shut. Keep it all on lockdown. Add in the muzzle flashes and slides in post production with VFX.

 
culdeus said:
How do you manage safety for shots were people are actually pointing guns at eachother?  I mean let's talk squid game for example. They point guns at people, alot.  
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I read something where a DP said something about point of view and camera angle can rid of almost all cases of actually pointing a gun at someone in real life, no matter how it looks on film. 

 
Runkle said:
If it's a 'real' gun, you "cheat" the angle. The actor aims three feet to the side and the camera just lines it up at an angle that looks like it's aimed at the guy.

The easy alternative is to have only plastic guns on set, or ones with the barrels plugged shut. Keep it all on lockdown. Add in the muzzle flashes and slides in post production with VFX.
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Is there like a gun that can simulate the motion of the shooting (like automatic rifle) and eject rounds but not actually have any firing mechanism?  Thinking like someone shoots an uzi and stuff comes flying out of it, or is that all VFX, the flashes, bangs, and expended shells?

Interesting topic here.  

 
culdeus said:
Is there like a gun that can simulate the motion of the shooting (like automatic rifle) and eject rounds but not actually have any firing mechanism?  Thinking like someone shoots an uzi and stuff comes flying out of it, or is that all VFX, the flashes, bangs, and expended shells?

Interesting topic here.  
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I don't know for sure, but, I've always thought there should be. Might be too late if not, as adding that all in with VFX just gets easier every year. 

 
culdeus said:
How do you manage safety for shots were people are actually pointing guns at eachother?  I mean let's talk squid game for example. They point guns at people, alot.  
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After mulling this over a bit longer, I'd be remiss without just saying the answer is simply "movie magic". Hollywood has a 100+ year history of doing things that the audience would/should think are impossible... practically and safely. The script calls for an actor rollerskate backwards and stop an inch short of a 40-foot drop? Pedal a bicycle toward a speeding locomotive and cut in front of it and cross the tracks within a half-second of being crushed? Drive a motorcycle 50 mph across a bridge with a 30-foot section missing, but making it across just as two trucks passed underneath from different directions, their roofs forming a platform to ride over for just a fraction of a second? Hollywood figured out how to do all those a hundred years ago, before they even figured out how to put sound in movies. 

The good people in the industry take pride in figuring out how to do the impossible, safely and practically. "Pointing at someone safely" isn't an insurmountable task. It just takes people dedicated to safety and following the rules instead of cutting corners. There's no reason an exception needs to be made to get a shot, ever. Their job is to figure out how to do anything, safely. If everyone on set shares the same mindset, situations like this don't happen. 

 
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culdeus said:
Is there like a gun that can simulate the motion of the shooting (like automatic rifle) and eject rounds but not actually have any firing mechanism?  Thinking like someone shoots an uzi and stuff comes flying out of it, or is that all VFX, the flashes, bangs, and expended shells?

Interesting topic here.  
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Generally speaking, the casing extraction mechanism is powered by gases from the round being fired. That said, it shouldn't be hard to replicate with some sort of small electric or hydraulic mechanism. 

Regarding replica firearms on set... There is an entire community of Airsoft junkies who focus on realistic replica builds.  Its not hard to find very realistic looking replicas for use on set. 

There were clear ongoing safety issues on set. They are peeling back the layers, but blame should be spread to all parties involved, including executives who may have cut corners or pushed conditions that forced others to cut corners. 

So far it's looking like some degree of blame could fall on:

- Baldwin (actor): Failure to safety check firearm. Failure to keep pointed in a safe direction (unless the shoot somehow required him to point directly at the camera... which is dumb in 99% of cases, methinks).

- Armorer: Failure to properly safety check firearm. Failure to maintain control of set (w/r/t blank vs live ammunition. 

- Weapons prop staff who were allegedly taking the weapon off set to shoot live ammunition. 

- Executives (Baldwin? others?) who could have created an environment of corner cutting via poor management, budgetary cuts, poor hiring practices, etc. 

 
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ConstruxBoy said:
I read something where a DP said something about point of view and camera angle can rid of almost all cases of actually pointing a gun at someone in real life, no matter how it looks on film. 
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Probably just be easier to like, not use a real gun.  

Pretty stupid at this point that any real gun needs to be used on screen.  

 
ghostguy123 said:
Probably just be easier to like, not use a real gun.  

Pretty stupid at this point that any real gun needs to be used on screen.  
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Seems like there’s talk to outright ban real guns on movie sets from now on. You can pretty well bet that will be official very soon.

 
Runkle said:
Yes it is. The armorer is supposed to inspect the gun before each take, hand it to the actor, and then the actor inspects it again. Barrel and chamber. In full view of all crew. Light and pencil down the barrel. And literally between every take. After the shot is done, the armorer takes back the gun and puts it in a safe.

At least, that's the industry standard. Who knows what was going on here. If they weren't following industry safety standards, the liability is going to be massive. 
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OMG we used to have a poster that worked on movie sets. He was here for awhile (and didn't like me in our early years) and was a good poster. Forget his name though. I think it starts with a V?

 
Whatever happened to Mr. Ham?  I thought he was is in show biz?

Would like to hear him weigh in on the Baldwin shooting.

 
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