Mister CIA
Footballguy
Yinka !!... we're not even halfway through yet. Wait until we're sifting through "all-timers" in the 28th round.
Yinka !!... we're not even halfway through yet. Wait until we're sifting through "all-timers" in the 28th round.
Oh I kind of took it as making some assumption about career trajectory. Also I’m looking at these as teams not a collection of awards. I’m not sure there’s anyone left that played in 10s that is a better pure scorer than Booker. My team needed a shooter/scorer.I should have clarified the “and beyond” to be through 2021, there Buzz Lightyear. I think some are extrapolating some of the young current guys to continue these careers for years to come. Only their real accomplishments should be factored in.
Not that you’re doing this, but I wanted to make sure we’re only counting what’s actually been done (as if everyone’s careers were done today). Plus I wanted to make a Buzz Lightyear joke.
Yeah, I didn't even have these guys on my draft list. If they weren't in the top 100 for the decade in winshares, they didn't make the list.
Judging will be fun.......or better yet the reactions to the judging will be fun....hahahaaIt is 2010s and beyond. I was focusing on the beyond part.
Jo Jo White wasn't playing in the 2010's with those rules, philosophies and coaching. He won in his era under those rules and against that competition and in this draft, he's only up against 70's PGs. He was the best pick available based on that, IMO.I'm not going to argue that they were great value picks, but I think there is a bit of a bias against some of the younger guys. Here are some of the guards taken this round.
Here they are when you isolate their best three year stretch.
Some of this comes down to a difference of a philosophy, I think. Kind of back to the Bill Walton discussion - are you more concerned about how good a player was at their peak, or are you looking for sustained goon-ness. For these young guys, I would prefer having a great start to their careers that leaves things a bit to the imagination, then having somebody that is good for their first 6-8 years then kind of tails off into mediocracy.
Noooooo!
Yeah I think it’s unfair to the veteran players who have completed their careers to extrapolate anything going forward that hasn’t happened yet for the current players. You can’t go back and draft Bill Walton after his best season and assume he plays at an MVP level for years and ignore his post injury years.Oh I kind of took it as making some assumption about career trajectory. Also I’m looking at these as teams not a collection of awards. I’m not sure there’s anyone left that played in 10s that is a better pure scorer than Booker. My team needed a shooter/scorer.
Jo Jo White wasn't playing in the 2010's with those rules, philosophies and coaching. He won in his era under those rules and against that competition and in this draft, he's only up against 70's PGs. He was the best pick available based on that, IMO.
Booker has played in exactly zero playoff games and Mitchell in only 23 over three years, having never even made it to the WCF. They both have also made zero all-NBA teams.
Per game stats only tell a part of the story, team success another, awards another, advanced stats another, etc.. Put those things all together and then you have at least some basis for comparison across eras. When some of those are extremely deficient it should make for significant downgrades. We don't give Horry much credit for his 7 rings because he never won a single individual award in his entire career and didn't even start the majority of his career playoff games. Points/assists/rebounds per game for a guy who has only played 5 seasons will be skewed high because they haven't played in the twilight of their careers when their bodies break down and then are relegated to the bench or supporting roles.
I read all that and I agree there is a place to factor those things in nobody is talking about actually watching how they play. Shouldn't that be a significant factor in judging as well? I mean the whole point is for entertainment and a lot of the entertainment comes from actually watching the game play over crunching stats.That's why I also threw in the top three seasons.
I'm not saying that Mitchell and Booker were better selections, I just think it's very debatable.
As an aside, here is the beef I have with awards/ASG selections prior to probably the 2000s (and still a little now, but not nearly as much), but certainly through the 80s... The coverage of the NBA was strictly LA and the northeast. How many times do you think the writers in NYC got to watch David Thompson? Other than for the uber-elite talents (we can agree we are past that point in the draft), there wasn't much coverage of players from the flyover states. This is true of baseball, football, and basketball. Additionally, it was a whole hell of a lot easier to get an All-NBA nod or an AS game selection when there were 10 or fewer teams throughout most of the 50s and 60s, even with only two all-nba teams. There were only 18 teams in the NBA prior to the merger, then after the merger there were 22 but 4 of the ABA teams disappeared.
Fun fact (that is fairly common knowledge at this point) - Pearl Jam originally were going to go by the name The Mookie Blaylocks. They decided not to for some reason, but did name their first album Ten because that was Blaylock's number.13.4 Mookie Blaylock, PG, 90s
"...his work in other areas, such as rebounding (4.3 per game) and assisting (6.9) helped him shine as a player. Even more impressive than that, however, was his sturdiness on the less glamorous side of the ball. He led the league in steals twice (2.7 nightly in 1996-97 and 2.6 in the following season), averaging 2.4 takeaways per game for the decade.
His abilities on that end earned him the nickname “The Thief”, along with six All-Defensive berths (two on the first team, four on the second)."
Some elite defense to go with Mullin.
damn you. From the way the discussion has gone I made a big miscalculation in waiting on Mookie to take Donovan. Ugh!13.4 Mookie Blaylock, PG, 90s
"...his work in other areas, such as rebounding (4.3 per game) and assisting (6.9) helped him shine as a player. Even more impressive than that, however, was his sturdiness on the less glamorous side of the ball. He led the league in steals twice (2.7 nightly in 1996-97 and 2.6 in the following season), averaging 2.4 takeaways per game for the decade.
His abilities on that end earned him the nickname “The Thief”, along with six All-Defensive berths (two on the first team, four on the second)."
Some elite defense to go with Mullin.
Literally just decided it was time ot make him my next pick. LOL. I need to stop following the draft until I'm like 5 or less away.13.15 Mike Conley, PG 10s
Flying in the face of the argument I was just making for guys like Booker, Conley is pretty much the textbook definition for the hall of very good. A one time all-star (!!!) and one time all-defense player, he’s consistently been around the 20th best player in the league, but playing in the western conference and being a guard during the biggest guard boom in the history of the league has limited his awards and accolades. Like Lowry picked a couple rounds ago, Conley lacks the totally elite skills to make him a superstar, but also does everything well. Plus, he’s used to playing with slow ground bound centers that pass and shoot the ball well.
He really came into his own on the back half of his career, averaging 17.5 ppg, 5.8 apg, 1.3 spg while shooting 38% on threes. 24th in WS for the decade, ahead of all but two players who have yet to be drafted (the next nearest guard has 10 fewer WS).
@Yo Mama
I will blame @Ilov80sfor taking Devin Booker making me incorrectly think there would be a run on 2010 second half decaders....ugh.13.4 Mookie Blaylock, PG, 90s
"...his work in other areas, such as rebounding (4.3 per game) and assisting (6.9) helped him shine as a player. Even more impressive than that, however, was his sturdiness on the less glamorous side of the ball. He led the league in steals twice (2.7 nightly in 1996-97 and 2.6 in the following season), averaging 2.4 takeaways per game for the decade.
His abilities on that end earned him the nickname “The Thief”, along with six All-Defensive berths (two on the first team, four on the second)."
Some elite defense to go with Mullin.
I was desperate for a PG who wasn't a hot mess on defense - I almost made a big reach for him after Lowry was picked.Literally just decided it was time ot make him my next pick. LOL. I need to stop following the draft until I'm like 5 or less away.
Donovan has more ASG than Mookie. Mookie was a great defensive player but I think it’s pretty clear Donovan is a better player and a franchise cornerstone, MVP potential player. I’m not sure I would ever say that about Mookie.I will blame @Ilov80sfor taking Devin Booker making me incorrectly think there would be a run on 2010 second half decaders....ugh.
When I left work yesterday, I actually wrote 5 names on a post it note for my next couple of picks in case I had to send them to someone.Regrouping, really wanted to get Eddie and Mookie here.
Been staring at this guy for a couple rounds.13.4 Mookie Blaylock, PG, 90s
"...his work in other areas, such as rebounding (4.3 per game) and assisting (6.9) helped him shine as a player. Even more impressive than that, however, was his sturdiness on the less glamorous side of the ball. He led the league in steals twice (2.7 nightly in 1996-97 and 2.6 in the following season), averaging 2.4 takeaways per game for the decade.
His abilities on that end earned him the nickname “The Thief”, along with six All-Defensive berths (two on the first team, four on the second)."
Some elite defense to go with Mullin.
And there's the last of my 5 man list.Ok, I think I’ll go with a guy that has been on my short list for a while now. Yo Mama selects:
13.16 - Ed Macauley, C/PF 60s
I’ll place him as a C for now but might move him to PF (he played both) depending on who else I draft later. Career averages of 17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, and 3.2 assists. During a 7 year peak, he averaged 19/8/4.
Excellent all around player for his position who was also an efficient shooter for the time.
1x champ
4x all nba
7x all star
EasyOk, I think I’ll go with a guy that has been on my short list for a while now. Yo Mama selects:
13.16 - Ed Macauley, C/PF 60s
I’ll place him as a C for now but might move him to PF (he played both) depending on who else I draft later. Career averages of 17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, and 3.2 assists. During a 7 year peak, he averaged 19/8/4.
Excellent all around player for his position who was also an efficient shooter for the time.
1x champ
4x all nba
7x all star
I totally agree when looking at player vs player. However, I wanted Mookie paired with Pippen defensively for my 90's squad.Donovan has more ASG than Mookie. Mookie was a great defensive player but I think it’s pretty clear Donovan is a better player and a franchise cornerstone, MVP potential player. I’m not sure I would ever say that about Mookie.
When my friend and I wanted to challenge ourselves on NBA Jam, we would pick the Lakers and play as Vlade. Seeing him doing crazy dunks was the best part of my weekday afternoons when I should have been doing homework.And I guess I’ll go ahead and lock up my center positions since the pickings are getting slim. Yo mama selects:
14.01 - Vlade Divac, 90s C
I was pissed when the Lakers drafted him because I had no idea who he was and because there were bigger college names on the board at the time. I grew to love this guy as a Laker, a King, and the key piece to the Lakers getting Kobe. Also had some amazing local commercials, and could polish off a pack of Camels at half time.
Great all around player who could stretch the floor, defend, rebound, and most notably pass. Career averages of 11.8 points, 8.2 rebound, 3.1 assists, 1.1 steals and 1.4 blocks. During a 10 year stretch averaged 13/9/3 with 1.5 each steals and blocks.
He and Elgin can battle for worst GM on my team.
was going to pair him back with Joel Embiid14.02 JJ Redick, SG, 10s
He’s not the best player available and probably a reach, but he is one of the absolute best shooters of all time in the age where threes are such a priority and would be a fantastic fit as the offball shooter that the Nuggets/Jokic have never had. I won’t bother posting all of his stats because it’s mostly about the three point shooting. For all players that have ever made at least 1200 threes (Redick is at 1935 made - #4 all time), he is the 5th most accurate (behind Curry, Nash, Thompson, and [redacted]). I’m not looking for high volume scorers, or somebody that needs the ball in their hands to create offense, I’m looking for somebody who will stretch the defense and give Conley and Jokic room to operate in the dribble hand off and PnR game.
Just for funsies, here is JJ Redick compared to Klay Thompson over their 5 years previous to this one (their combined statistical peaks).Don’t get me wrong, Klay is the better player, but at least on the offensive side of the ball, it’s closer than most people realize and their complete offensive games are visually pretty similar.
Plus, somehow he is a universally beloved player from Duke… we should probably take into account that anomaly.
@scoobus
We're building teams here.Donovan has more ASG than Mookie. Mookie was a great defensive player but I think it’s pretty clear Donovan is a better player and a franchise cornerstone, MVP potential player. I’m not sure I would ever say that about Mookie.
It's pretty cool how he went from one of the most hated players ever at Duke to one of the coolest, most respected guys in the NBA.14.02 JJ Redick, SG, 10s
He's only in the HOF as a coach, not a player.14.03 Rudy Tomjanovich, PF, 70s
We'll break the seal on the 70s with this 5x all-star and HOFer who's probably most remembered for having his career completely altered by The Punch. He also coached a little bit too.
Player-coach probably.He's only in the HOF as a coach, not a player.
dang. seriously valuable player i knew i was waiting too long to pick. i was gonna fix that this round...14.03 Rudy Tomjanovich, PF, 70s
We'll break the seal on the 70s with this 5x all-star and HOFer who's probably most remembered for having his career completely altered by The Punch. He also coached a little bit too.
For sure, that was more of a defense of The Donovan pick not being too early than a criticism of Mookie.We're building teams here.
He is. I was at Seton Hall while he was coaching there. My buddy who was a DJ at WSOU, the school’s heavy metal radio station, was standing outside the door with another guy from the station smoking (WSOU was in the same building as the old gym), and PJ walks out past them turns around and says “Put them cigarettes out you dirt bags” and walks away. They were too shocked to say anything back.I blame PJ, he’s a #####.
Argh, I was hoping he’d fall some more.
Doug taking his time on this one. He's been in the thread the whole time he's been on the clock. Must be a tough choice here.
Had Randolph pretty much penciled and had to re-assess the board before going with Cassell.Argh, I was hoping he’d fall some more.