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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!) (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yo Mama
- Start date
Ilov80s
Footballguy
20.12 Archie Clark PG 70s
2x All Star, 1x All NBA
Shake and Bake had a short run but from 68-73 he averaged 20/5/4. He got a late start to basketball and the NBA with his rookie season being at 25. He was discovered in the military playing basketball at an army base when he accepted a scholarship to Minnesota. Arche earned his nickname by being the first player to have mastered the crossover dribble.
2x All Star, 1x All NBA
Shake and Bake had a short run but from 68-73 he averaged 20/5/4. He got a late start to basketball and the NBA with his rookie season being at 25. He was discovered in the military playing basketball at an army base when he accepted a scholarship to Minnesota. Arche earned his nickname by being the first player to have mastered the crossover dribble.
trader jake
Footballguy
No doubt. Not sure anyone has argued otherwise.
The night Marquette made the Final Four I was at some Milwaukee east side bars watching the games. Eventually we headed near campus to take in the celebration more directly. A few hours after the game the team even showed up to bask in the glory and Wade (and other players) ended up behind the bar serving drinks at one point. Got a tapper from DWade myself, but #### got crazy in a hurry once word spread. Let's just say that drink had a lot of foam, but it tasted so damn good in the moment.
Shout out to Wikkid for motivating me with his anecdotes to share one of my own.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
This is way too fun. How about when this is all done we do another draft for 2020-2021 and then argue about which teams are almost as good as mine?
Yo Mama
Footballguy
We could replace the judging/ranking process with head to head tournaments for everything. That would take about a week per decade plus the best in show and pantheon tournaments, That’ll kill a good couple months
Or we could have everyone pick their 4 favorite decade teams and we make a massive 64 team March madness tournament. Brackets baby!
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Kev4029
Footballguy
First, this mostly started because I said what a precarious offensive fit this team was. I really don't know how to make an offense in which all 5 players are best with the ball in their hands when only 1 of them can shoot all work - this is exacerbated by having Wade in the wrong decade.
Second, I think prime Wade 04-05 through 11-12 was a top half dozen SG of all time, that wasn't my point. You just put him the wrong decade.
All 3 of his All-Defense teams were in the 00s, 5 of his 8 All-NBA awards were from 00s including all 3 of his first team awards, and the only season he was reeeally in contention for MVP (finished #3 just behind Kobe, but Lebron won in a landslide, ultimately). The AS selections are even but once you hit a certain level of icon, you keep getting selected, even after you deserve it.
Wade was still an All-NBA player in those first 3 Lebron years, but year 3 things were starting to fall apart a bit. The 2000s have: each of the top 4 scoring seasons and 6 of the top 7; each of his top assist 6 years are in the 00s; each of the top 4 seasons in PER; each of the top 3 seasons in WS and 4 out of the top 5 (and 5 of 7); each of the top 3 BPM seasons and 4 out of the top 5 (and 5 of 7); the top three seasons of VORP and 5 of the top 6.
Basically, my point is his best 3 years (by far) are in the 00s, and 5 of his top 7 seasons. In those last two Lebron seasons, Wade was being dragged through the playoffs by Lebron.
Beyond all of that, he just wouldn't be the same player in today's NBA because of the reliance on 3 pointers. If prime Wade showed up to the NBA today, I think he would have to be reimagined as strictly a high usage PG in the Westbrook mold, but you are seeing the failings of that in real time. Not to say that he wouldn't have been a HOFer, but he might have been a tier or two down in all time rankings (I think this is probably true of Kobe to an extent as well, but less than Wade).
Regarding the 2010s SG discussion, I think some people might be overlooking what Harden has been doing since he made it to Houston. Get ready for this blasphemy - since Harden joined the Rockets, he has become the third best perimeter player offensively since the merger (Jordan/Lebron). I think in the all-time SG discussion he is ahead of Wade, and certainly when you take into account that 10s Wade is a different animal than 00s Wade.
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
It’s too bad the What If Sports sim for basketball died. We could have done something there.Can we plug in all the players into some sort of 2K game and simulate the results?
Instinctive
Footballguy
So I did think about that a little bit. My thoughts were: Imagine McGrady in Harden or Luka or LeBron's role throughout the 10s. Billups is fantastic as a second ball handler, Battier always had good driving and passing ability against a rotating defense as well. So now our sticking point is Wallace...but in the 2000s, the rebounding of this 2-4 might actually be making the difference, as teams didn't, for the most part, get into transition very well off misses. So I don't know that it would work, but fundamentally I think the spacing is pretty good for a 2000s squad, and McGrady certainly could run a more modern heliocentric style.
More importantly: teams won titles with scores in the 60s and 70s, and they didn't have as good top to bottom defense as this squad. I think it's a really interesting way to have built a team. Like I mentioned in the original thought experiment, I think there are good arguments it's anywhere from like 2-6 or so.
At the very least, it still has better spacing than @Jayrod's 10s team, which, while full of talent, is going to get wrecked by a number of the other 10s squads.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
EYLive
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
20.13 - Tayshaun Prince - 00's SG
The Thin Man was really a SF, but with Pierce, I wanted a wing defender who can shoot, but doesn't need to carry the load on offense. Prince checks both of those boxes nicely as a 4 time all-defensive team member, a 36.7% career 3-pt shooter (with 3 seasons over 40%) and a key part of the 2004 championship Pistons.
@wikkidpissah
The Thin Man was really a SF, but with Pierce, I wanted a wing defender who can shoot, but doesn't need to carry the load on offense. Prince checks both of those boxes nicely as a 4 time all-defensive team member, a 36.7% career 3-pt shooter (with 3 seasons over 40%) and a key part of the 2004 championship Pistons.
@wikkidpissah
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Jayrod
Footballguy
See, now you are just being argumentative.
1. Horford and Iggy have NEVER had "the ball in their hands" in their entire careers and have somehow been key pieces on winning team after winning team. And I'll scream it to the rooftops that Giannis is a more impactful player WITHOUT the ball than with it. Only 2 guys "need" the ball on this team. One is a penetrator and one is a shooter. The other 3 will be most effective by what they do without it. Just sticking a bunch of shooters on the 3-pt line doesn't exactly = offensive success.
2. Despite the increased reliance upon the 3 pt line, there is still a great reliance on getting into the paint and my team does that better than anyone with Wade & Giannis (and also Iggy). 55% from 2 = 37% from 3, but also gets more FTs and puts opposing players in foul trouble which is a huge part of 2010's basketball and a key to every good team's game right now. How are CP3 and Mitchell leading the 2 top teams right now if it's all about 3-pt shooting? How did the Bucks have the best record the last 2 seasons if Giannis isn't a good 3-pt shooter? Because they are constantly a threat to get in the paint, that's why. If you can't do that, then defenders stay at home and there are no open looks at 3. Most guys only shoot around 25% on contested 3's. Getting to the paint is the first option for even Harden and Curry. Without their ability to get to the rim, their shooting is minimized (see Korver and Reddick).
3. In addition to 3-pt shooting in today's NBA is the high pick and roll to get downhill, into the aforementioned lane and generate better looks in the corners and wide open pick and pop shots. I've got 2 great screen and roll bigs, an all-time elite screen and roll guard and another stellar screen and roll shooter and all 5 are capable corner 3 shooters. I've got 4 guys that can be effective ball handler on the s&r and 3 guys that can be effective as the screener. That all = great offense.
4. The fact that you think Wade = Westbrook is hilarious. Wade's shiftiness is vastly superior to Westbrook's straight ahead style. Wade spun defenders in circles while Westbrook just tries to go through everyone. Wade is a better defender and shooter and Wade was never a stat chaser, but an actual winner.
I think what it also boils down to is not just your disrespect of Wade, but of Giannis. For the past 2 seasons he was easily the best all around player in the league and is quickly rising the ranks of greatest PFs of all time. The freak can do everything and his greatest value is the stuff that isn't half-court offense. Elite defender, elite rebounder and elite on the fast break. You act like the game is only who can score in the half court best. There is a lot more to a game and a lot more ways to win than hitting open 3's.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
I wanted Chandler for this last pick. Looks like others were eyeing him too. Seems a little awkward with Ben Wallace, since neither of them can shoot outside 2 feet (but then again, nobody on the other team will get to shoot inside 10 feet, so it may balance out).
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Good pick, I wanted him but I’m apparently punting that decade. He was such a key piece to that Pistons team. We had struggled so much against TMac and then as a rookie he came in and was the series MVP locking Mcgrady down with that long wingspan of his. And of course no Piston fan will ever forget the block on Reggie.
Kev4029
Footballguy
This was my backup plan to Artest. Fits a little better in the team concept but didn't impact the game quite the same.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Artest was an elite defender and a great athlete. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I also believe he is one of the least intelligent players in the history of the league. Every time I heard him speak it just seemed like he was a few bricks shy.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
20.14 Cazzie Russell SF 70s
A true wing in the days where the positions were carved in granite, taken first overall out of Michigan by the league doormats in the Apple, he ran out & scored and ran out & scored til it brought the Knickerbockers their first title, succeeding the Celts dynasty after Russell retired in '69,, and was promptly thanked by being shipped to the hinterlands for Jerry Lucas, whose position was carved in granite. Say what you will, but Cazzie Russell was never taken for granite
@timschochet
A true wing in the days where the positions were carved in granite, taken first overall out of Michigan by the league doormats in the Apple, he ran out & scored and ran out & scored til it brought the Knickerbockers their first title, succeeding the Celts dynasty after Russell retired in '69,, and was promptly thanked by being shipped to the hinterlands for Jerry Lucas, whose position was carved in granite. Say what you will, but Cazzie Russell was never taken for granite
@timschochet
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modogg
Footballguy
i actually thought the same thing last week. would be ton of fun to see which teams win a best of 3Can we plug in all the players into some sort of 2K game and simulate the results?
Jayrod
Footballguy
My son and I play 2K fairly often and I really enjoy playing with the all-time teams. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that my 60's SG, Richie Guerin, is the starting 2 for the all-time Knicks team.
My new go to team is the Sonics/Thunder. They've had so many great players, but only 1 ring to show for it. I almost beat his Rockets squad for the first time in a while this past weekend.
modogg
Footballguy
that does sound fun. wish i had re-downloaded my 2k game before this started and got more familiar with the guys in the 60s and 70s. probably little of 80s too.
Kev4029
Footballguy
1. Iggy was the nominal PG for Philly in his prime. He was often compared to Scottie Pippen. For the Warriors, he was often the lead initiator, especially on the 2nd unit. And you are right about Horford - I guess I should have said he is better when involved in the primary action.
2/3. Easy buckets at the hoop are definitely more reliable than 3s. But again, you need spacing for that to be effective in today's NBA. What Wade was doing in the mid-00s just doesn't happen anymore - he usually had a PG that could shoot, but otherwise he was surrounded by mid-range shooters and non-shooter. The title teams (both Shaq and Lebron) had shooters around Wade. The same is true of Giannis - other than Bledsoe (who is a shooter in the same vein of somebody like Iggy) the Bucks have surrounded him with shooters at the other 4 positions. The PnR is only effective if you can kick out to somebody who can reliably shoot. The Bucks have #2, #4, and #8 over the last 3 years in 3PA. The Heat were #6 in their last title.
This season, Mitchell and the Jazz lead the NBA in 3 point takes and makes (shooting almost 40% from 3), Mitchell himself is taking 8.8 3s a game and making them at a 38% clip (he has the 6th most 3PT attempts in the league). The Suns aren't quite as prolific (16th in attempts, 12th in makes) but they have the 7th highest 3P% in the league - Chris Paul is an anomaly in the modern NBA because he takes a lot of mid-range jumpers and consistently makes 50% of them, but even mid-range maestro-Paul has always been a good 3 point shooter who takes enough to keep the D honest. He's shooting 39% on almost 4 a game.
4. Wade was a better player and always had better shot selection, that wasn't my point. I was just saying the way Westbrook has been utilized the last few years is how you would build a team and utilize Wade. Make him a completely heliocentric offensive force with shooting all around. Of the top 10 players in usage in 2021, every single one of them other than probably Lebron, is either an elite shooter, surrounded by elite shooters, or both. 11th in usage is Westbrook - their offense blows.
Nearly every offense in the NBA is predicated on spacing, that doesn't necessarily mean everybody needs to be a 40% shooter, but it does mean that those shooters in the corner need to have the gravity to pull their defender their direction to open up the spacing for getting to the rim.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Right, and my team has that. All of them can and will shoot. None of them will be left alone and dared to shoot from the corner like Ben Simmons or recent Draymond Green (what happened to that guy's shot?). Iggy is the only guy on my team who I remember thinking a corner 3 was a bad shot, but that was because the other options were Curry, KD and Klay. I don't like it when Giannis pulls up for 3 above the break and Horford ain't going to make a living out there, but I'd be pleased to let Wade, Giannis, Horford and Iggy take open corner threes all game if the defense thinks they can leave them alone. And again, you keep ignoring how great this group will be at defense, on the glass and on the fast break.
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timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
My 60s and before team:
Walt Hazzard PG
Frank Selvy SG
Jim Pollard SF
Vern Mikkelson PF
Wilt Chamberlain C
Basically it’s the 50 Lakers (who won 5 NBA titles) except I get Wilt in place of George Mikan. Not too shabby.
Walt Hazzard PG
Frank Selvy SG
Jim Pollard SF
Vern Mikkelson PF
Wilt Chamberlain C
Basically it’s the 50 Lakers (who won 5 NBA titles) except I get Wilt in place of George Mikan. Not too shabby.
modogg
Footballguy
k, i'm in a meeting so this will be quick. will be taking some time on my 2nd one, but wanted to wrap up my 60s team. LIked this guy because he played 10 seasons from 60s-70s. nice and easy to put him in one of the decade slots
Dan Ohl 60s PG:
Among the best distance shooters of his time, the 6'3", 190-pound guard scored 11,549 points and appeared in five NBA All-Star Games in his career. Ohl averaged 26.1 points in 10 games that post-season.
Dan Ohl 60s PG:
Among the best distance shooters of his time, the 6'3", 190-pound guard scored 11,549 points and appeared in five NBA All-Star Games in his career. Ohl averaged 26.1 points in 10 games that post-season.
Jayrod
Footballguy
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modogg
Footballguy
Kev4029
Footballguy
I'll let this die after this so we quit polluting the thread... of course they are going to be be amazing on the break and great defensively. I think they'll be more average to good than great on the boards (their combined REB% is about 52.0 which I bet is right about average once we get through the draft, but that stat doesn't always translate - for instance Giannis saw a huge jump when his current center joined the team, or the change in the center's REB% on Westbrook teams). But there is not an example of a recent title team that didn't and couldn't shoot threes. The only team that I can really think of is last years Lakers, but KCP/Lebron/Davis all picked it up substantially in the playoffs and started shooting more and making more than the regular season.
Just for comparison here, per 48 minutes, your lineup shoots 21.3 threes a game at a 34.3% clip (the non-Lillard contingent is at 12.1 attempts and 32.2%). League average this year is 34.9 and .368 (league worst is 27.6 - Cavs, and 32.6% - Rockets, second worst is Cavs @ 34.0%). The last time your team would have had an above average attempt rate was 12-13 and the last time your team would have had an average % was 98-99.
Without looking at the other teams, I don't know who exactly has the talent to beat you, but a jump shooting team with an elite defensive center would have the big advantage. That would limit fast breaks and really clog up the paint for all the Giannis/Wade action in the paint.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Only flaw in this thinking is if it’s a 2010-Present team, should we be looking at 2021 stats or somewhere more representative of the whole time period?
I think this is one of the dilemmas in judging. You are supposed to take the entire career of a player into consideration even though he is playing for a specific decade. How do you do that exactly? I don't think just taking the career average is necessarily optimal as that can be skewed for many reasons. Do you take the all time best year? If so that helps the guys like Mitchell because it doesn't matter he has only played 4 seasons. Is that the right approach? Probably not.
I am more of the thought that this should be looked at as a team of 5 at their prime playing against every other team of 5 in their prime and who would win that game. I have no idea how you get to the winner but it seems like it should be based on a Rucker like tournament and who is the last team standing. Oh crap, maybe I should have taken a team of Uncle Drew, Big Fella, Preacher, Lights and Boots for my 60's (over 60 yrs old) team.....
modogg
Footballguy
just finished my meeting.Yo Mama said:
I'll go with a swiss army knife, great perimeter defender (considered one of the best by many peers). He was known as driving to the basket, and hitting mid rangers depending on how he was guarded. His 3 point numbers would be much higher if there was a focus on it. He also carried the Bulls for the beginning part of the decade when Rose had his injury. He is known for his albatross contract now, but in the beginning of the decade was certainly one of the top forwards in the league. Basically did all the dirty work to lift Rose to his MVP season.
Was moving to be a top in the league when he was diagnosed with meningitis and had a spinal tap. So i will take him before that
Luol Deng 10s SF
modogg
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
modogg must be a hella baller himself cuz, judging by the length of his elbow, he must be at least 18ft tall
timschochet
Footballguy
Bill Cartwright 80s C
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Kev4029
Footballguy
Good question - generally there have been a lot of stylistic shifts across the NBA in each decade. I equate the 10s NBA to the pace and space offenses of the last half decade because it's been such a massive change to the way the game is played. So 20-21 may not be fair to judge everybody against, but generally the NBA is evolving to both meet the talent and the new philosophies of the game, so the style of the back end of the decade will be more advantageous to a team than the start of the decade.Ilov80s said:
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
21.03 Marvin "Bad News" Barnes PF 70s
Apologies to Elvin Hayes (a displaced center) and a couple others, but the best power forwarding of the 70s was done ri'chere, by this man. Then the bigtime got him and he started chasing dragons instead of rebounds. Couldnt fault a fella in those days for dippin' into a li'l Peruvian Dunking Powder, but it derailed him more completely than maybe any team athlete. Still, he had days in his late-career year with the Celtics - though it sometimes took six cheerleaders to get him out on the court - where he would just flat rule for a coupla hours. Make it reign, News! Actually surprised he & King will probably be my only cocaine cowboys...
@Jayrod
Apologies to Elvin Hayes (a displaced center) and a couple others, but the best power forwarding of the 70s was done ri'chere, by this man. Then the bigtime got him and he started chasing dragons instead of rebounds. Couldnt fault a fella in those days for dippin' into a li'l Peruvian Dunking Powder, but it derailed him more completely than maybe any team athlete. Still, he had days in his late-career year with the Celtics - though it sometimes took six cheerleaders to get him out on the court - where he would just flat rule for a coupla hours. Make it reign, News! Actually surprised he & King will probably be my only cocaine cowboys...
@Jayrod
Yo Mama
Footballguy
The 2010s should be judged like any other decade, in my opinion. We’re not going to judge a 70s player based on their last couple years before they retire, we’re (or at least I am) going to look at a combination of their peak and their career accomplishments.Ilov80s said:
A current veteran player, let’s say Derrick Rose in my case, shouldn’t be judged just on their current level of play but based on their total career as well as their peak. (And current young players shouldn’t project anything they haven’t done yet).
This is why having multiple judges will be helpful to make sure different points of view will be accounted for.
Just my thoughts.
Jayrod
Footballguy
The decade spans back to 2010, where Wade was the go-to scorer for a team that won 2 rings in this era. While I think he could figure out how to be a great scorer in 2021, this isn't a comparison of 2021 teams (although some people seem to be drafting like it is).Kev4029 said:
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