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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!) (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yo Mama
- Start date
Instinctive
Footballguy
Yo Mama
Footballguy
I’ll kick off the judging for 60s in the next hour or so. Then people can do writeups for their 60s teams if they want. Higgins can still fill in his 60s team before the official judging starts.
Best in show can be decided after the 10s rankings are done if you want.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Question for the group:
Do we jump right into the 60s rankings today (writeups today/tonight, rankings to me tomorrow)
or
Give today a chance for everyone to discuss the draft, what you liked, wish you would have done different, undrafted players, etc. then we jump into the 60s tomorrow?
Im fine either way. Want to keep the momentum going.
Do we jump right into the 60s rankings today (writeups today/tonight, rankings to me tomorrow)
or
Give today a chance for everyone to discuss the draft, what you liked, wish you would have done different, undrafted players, etc. then we jump into the 60s tomorrow?
Im fine either way. Want to keep the momentum going.
I have some decisions for my pantheon team for the bench spots while the starters are somewhat easy to go with:
PG - Chris Paul: elite defender, handles the pace and game. Can create when needed and score when necessary. Gets everyone involved.
SG - Sam Jones: pure shooter and although they didn't have 3's back then I have no doubt he can knock them down. WInner and a HoF'er is a great compliment to Paul in backcourt
SF - Scottie Pippen: This is the elite defense guy that can shut down anybody. He will handle the best offensive player on the opponent and harass him all night long. He can fun the court and score without dominating the ball. Again a perfect fit for this squad
PF - Tim Duncan: Arguably the best PF of all time. 15x FAll Defense Team (8 first teams and 7 second team)to go along with 15 All star games, 2 MVP, and 5 titles. In his prime an elite defender that can handle any of the bigs he has to go against. Also great in the team defensive scheme to help if needed. Perfect fit to this squad.
C - Dwight Howard: All he has to do is rebound, protect the rim, and crash the boards with his athleticism on the offensive end. A few lobs from the organizer of Lob City not and then and the defense has to stay honest. Howard and Duncan in the frontcourt can handle any teams out there.
Bench (initial thoughts):
C/PF - Dan Issel: I give him the slight nod over Dolph Schayes as I think the judging will be a bit skewed against the old timers. Issell is a 27/11/2.5 guy and can give either of the starters rest as needed.
PG - Tony Parker: This may be a shocking choice to some but compared to Dave Bing he just has better advanced stats in all categories. It's really a coin flip and since I didn't watch Bing play I am giving the nod to Parker. Plus he and Duncan put up 5 titles together so I know they can win.
SG/SF - Bob Dandridge: This guy can do it all and is a nice compliment to this team. Can fill in for Scottie to give a breather and take on the wings solidly. Other possible options were Paul Pressey, Jeff Malone, and Doug Collins. Going in I didn't know much about Dandridge but after doing some research this guy is really, really good not to mention a great fit for this squad
This is my tentative squad but if I see some tremendous praise or blasphemous bad mouthing in the decade judging I reserve the right to make some changes.
Criticize away!
PG - Chris Paul: elite defender, handles the pace and game. Can create when needed and score when necessary. Gets everyone involved.
SG - Sam Jones: pure shooter and although they didn't have 3's back then I have no doubt he can knock them down. WInner and a HoF'er is a great compliment to Paul in backcourt
SF - Scottie Pippen: This is the elite defense guy that can shut down anybody. He will handle the best offensive player on the opponent and harass him all night long. He can fun the court and score without dominating the ball. Again a perfect fit for this squad
PF - Tim Duncan: Arguably the best PF of all time. 15x FAll Defense Team (8 first teams and 7 second team)to go along with 15 All star games, 2 MVP, and 5 titles. In his prime an elite defender that can handle any of the bigs he has to go against. Also great in the team defensive scheme to help if needed. Perfect fit to this squad.
C - Dwight Howard: All he has to do is rebound, protect the rim, and crash the boards with his athleticism on the offensive end. A few lobs from the organizer of Lob City not and then and the defense has to stay honest. Howard and Duncan in the frontcourt can handle any teams out there.
Bench (initial thoughts):
C/PF - Dan Issel: I give him the slight nod over Dolph Schayes as I think the judging will be a bit skewed against the old timers. Issell is a 27/11/2.5 guy and can give either of the starters rest as needed.
PG - Tony Parker: This may be a shocking choice to some but compared to Dave Bing he just has better advanced stats in all categories. It's really a coin flip and since I didn't watch Bing play I am giving the nod to Parker. Plus he and Duncan put up 5 titles together so I know they can win.
SG/SF - Bob Dandridge: This guy can do it all and is a nice compliment to this team. Can fill in for Scottie to give a breather and take on the wings solidly. Other possible options were Paul Pressey, Jeff Malone, and Doug Collins. Going in I didn't know much about Dandridge but after doing some research this guy is really, really good not to mention a great fit for this squad
This is my tentative squad but if I see some tremendous praise or blasphemous bad mouthing in the decade judging I reserve the right to make some changes.
Criticize away!
I would say give a day for everyone to get their bearings and discuss how things are going to go down. There is no hurry per se so lets have some discussions on how things are shaping up and give a deadline for writeups (if you are going to do one) by X time on X day. That way people can plan accordingly.
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Sounds like we were pretty similar in our approach and being that we traded draft spots out teams were probably pretty close as to how they would have ended up anyway. I definitely wanted to fill in my pantheon team with my first 8 picks while staying in a decade by decade framework as well. I am happy with how it turned out even though I did you a couple later picks to fill out my pantheon bench just because I think they fit better as a team. I am treating this like a team game and not just advanced stats ruling the day in a straight numbers game (hopefully enough judges feel this way too).
Your example of transporting current players to the conditions of yesteryear is interesting but I am not quite sure if it translates quite that way. Growing up in those conditions would also likely groom today's players for those conditions rather than just a Bill & Ted phone booth journey away to get thrown into a game so I am not sure how those translate. It's one of the unanswerable questions judges have to answer. It is a hard job. Good luck to all.
modogg
Footballguy
i think we go option B, and work out some of teh questions in here first before we start looking at the judging. otherwise we may clog the thread more, trying to do both at the same time
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Dave Bing is so much better than Tony Parker that i would bet Bing/Lanier over Parker/Duncan in 2-on-2. In fact, Parker goes undrafted here if Duncan never existed. In addition, Bing could sub SG hella better than Bobby Dandridge. Love your wing depth - a healthy Doug Collins might have been better than Pressey (who u sniped me on)/Bing/BobbyD AND Sam Jones. Issel/Schayes pretty much a push
modogg
Footballguy
i'm in the same boat a bit myself. I have Sweet Lou who has won 6th man of the year a ton, but obviously i think putting in A.I. as my first bench guy is much better. But your post above is great too in terms of are we measuring those based on A.I. coming in with a bench unit idea, or am i looking at A.I. as just taking the place for Jordan with the other 4 starters? will definitely alter a bit how i want to put the bench unit in based on which we way we are valuing the bench.
i figure the starters are easier because it is more about putting together the 5 best puzzle pieces for the best team play
Thanks for the insight on Bing. I know he is really good but looking at the numbers they don't stack up well with Parker (other than scoring). All the advanced stats are in Parker's favor. That is really my biggest debate for the Pantheon and I still might go back to BIng just because I do think he is a better player (even though advanced stats seem to differ from that).
Kev4029
Footballguy
Some players that didn't get selected that I thought would:
Tony Allen - The best defensive shooting guard of the past couple decades. 6 time all defense.
TR Dunn - One of the best defensive guards of the 80s. 3 time all defense
Zion Williamson - I'm not sure he did deserve it, but I thought somebody would have taken him in the last couple rounds. He has been an absolute force offensively this year. One time All-Star.
Jaylen Brown - Again, not sure he really deserves it, but the mix of offense and defense is rare. One time All-Star.
Ralph Simpson - He put up some points in the ABA and made 5 all-star games and 3 all-aba.
Robert Covington - He was on my short list when I selected Gallo. Not one of the best 80 players of the decade, but fills a role as a pretty elite 3-D guy. One all-defense and has hit 36% of his threes.
Don Nelson - A white guy that played on a bunch of Celtics title teams and put up some good stats.
Zydrunas Ilgauskas - Certainly one of the best 16 centers of the decade, made two AS games. He was slow and huge, but actually kind of good too. Kind of a Yao-lite.
Tony Allen - The best defensive shooting guard of the past couple decades. 6 time all defense.
TR Dunn - One of the best defensive guards of the 80s. 3 time all defense
Zion Williamson - I'm not sure he did deserve it, but I thought somebody would have taken him in the last couple rounds. He has been an absolute force offensively this year. One time All-Star.
Jaylen Brown - Again, not sure he really deserves it, but the mix of offense and defense is rare. One time All-Star.
Ralph Simpson - He put up some points in the ABA and made 5 all-star games and 3 all-aba.
Robert Covington - He was on my short list when I selected Gallo. Not one of the best 80 players of the decade, but fills a role as a pretty elite 3-D guy. One all-defense and has hit 36% of his threes.
Don Nelson - A white guy that played on a bunch of Celtics title teams and put up some good stats.
Zydrunas Ilgauskas - Certainly one of the best 16 centers of the decade, made two AS games. He was slow and huge, but actually kind of good too. Kind of a Yao-lite.
Another interesting idea is to have other drafters set your Pantheon team just to get a different perspective on how they see things. I think most starting 5's are going to set themselves with a few exceptions but those bench spots could be all over the place.
I would actually like any and all input on my choices from others to see how they might set a lineup.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
You’re overthinking things if you’re considering Lou Williams over Iverson on your pantheon team just because he comes off the bench in real life.
Man, the Sixers hate in this draft is palpable.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
empirically, Bing was discussed much the way Big O was, as far as imagining him in primetime situations (til a much-diminished Oscar got Kareem). love Sam, went to his basketball camp, but Bing wins choosies even over him, nm Parker, every time. there was little mobility then and even less thought of championship tracks. guys like Bing, Lanier, Debusschere played you $3.75's-worth of basketball nite after nite and that was that. Jones, like Parker, performed a role perfectly for a championship team. Bing was a star. while i was a stats guy before most, i never got into the new-age ones, so i dont know about that. should i be selling you on getting better? i dunno, but that's the gutfeel
Yo Mama
Footballguy
****CALENDAR OF EVENTS****
Monday - let the dust settle, general discussion, make fun of other people’s team, complain about your bad decisions, etc. I’ll send out the 60s rosters this afternoon and @ everyone (including guest judges)
Tuesday - everyone has a chance to do writeups for their 60s teams if they want (not required)
Wednesday - rankings PM’ed to me by 3pm pacific. I’ll consolidate and roll them out.
If we hit a lull and this seems too slow, I can speed things up.
Monday - let the dust settle, general discussion, make fun of other people’s team, complain about your bad decisions, etc. I’ll send out the 60s rosters this afternoon and @ everyone (including guest judges)
Tuesday - everyone has a chance to do writeups for their 60s teams if they want (not required)
Wednesday - rankings PM’ed to me by 3pm pacific. I’ll consolidate and roll them out.
If we hit a lull and this seems too slow, I can speed things up.
Realistically i would like every team to put out their best so this really is the best of the best. I think that would benefit everyone because in the end I think we all want to better our knowledge on the subject. I appreciate any input you (or anybody else) has to put out the best squad.
Your idea of the choosies idea is kind of how I would prefer the judging to take place over a strict stat assessment. I agree that Bing is great but Parker on a choosies team for a role of getting things going and having superior talent around him may be a better team fit but will the judges see it that way? That is the million dollar question. I still may go back as my gut wants Bing but the advanced stat guy says Parker. At least I have choices.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I like it. I think a decade every 1-2 days, followed by best in show, followed by pantheon. Should make for another fun couple of weeks.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Here’s some of the top guys left on my list that went undrafted:
80s SG - Ricky Pierce - efficient high volume scorer, 1x all star and 2x 6th man
80s/90s SG - Dell Curry - gunner, father of gunners
80s/90s SF - Jerome Kersey - all everything, had some amazing peak years in Portland
90s PG - Scott Skiles - gritty, gutty, assists specialist
90s SF - Chuck Person - the rifleman
90s SF - Eddie Johnson - scorer with a super long career, 19k career points
90s/00s SG/SF - Jim Jackson - long career lowered his career numbers, but his early Dallas years were huge
00s SG - Kevin Martin - highly efficient scorer, the advanced metrics always loved him
00s SF - Caron Butler - Tuff Juice, solid career but an incredible peak at Washington, 2x all star
00s SG - Ben Gordon - another guy with a super high peak
80s SG - Ricky Pierce - efficient high volume scorer, 1x all star and 2x 6th man
80s/90s SG - Dell Curry - gunner, father of gunners
80s/90s SF - Jerome Kersey - all everything, had some amazing peak years in Portland
90s PG - Scott Skiles - gritty, gutty, assists specialist
90s SF - Chuck Person - the rifleman
90s SF - Eddie Johnson - scorer with a super long career, 19k career points
90s/00s SG/SF - Jim Jackson - long career lowered his career numbers, but his early Dallas years were huge
00s SG - Kevin Martin - highly efficient scorer, the advanced metrics always loved him
00s SF - Caron Butler - Tuff Juice, solid career but an incredible peak at Washington, 2x all star
00s SG - Ben Gordon - another guy with a super high peak
Yo Mama
Footballguy
I took Pressey over Tripucka and it was fairly close decision. Decided to go defense as what won out.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Pierce was a flat bucket. I thought Caron was gonna be mega comin out of UConn, ended up meta. BenGo was the Reddick of his age - hot worthlessness.
Took Rider over PIerce/Curry
Took Brandon over Skiles
Took Jason Terry over Jackson
Had all those guys on the short list but just didn't quite make the cut for whatever reasons.
higgins
Footballguy
Folks, I'll select my 60's by the end of the night (can you please wait until then?) -- thanks!!!!
Jayrod
Footballguy
EYLive
Footballguy
I'm surprise nobody took Jaylen Brown. I took Rudy Gay who has less impressive averages but has put in enough years to make it only my squad. I slightly broke my own rule with Porzingis though.
Speaking of which, I never did a write up on the Unicorn:
7'3" tall, 20 points, 2 3-pointers, 8 rebounds and 2 blocks
NBA All-Star (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2016)
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
Kev4029
Footballguy
I looked at Skiles for my 80s PG but he didn't really have the time in for the decade and he was also not as good statistically as I remember.
Martin was a backup for me to my JJ Redick pick. He was a rare combination of shooting efficiency and volume for the time. Just so bad defensively and gets docked for his jacked up form.
Butler was somebody I considered for 10s SF but he didn't quite have the juice in the 10s.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
because he was no more than a factotum when the decade ended. his entire value to his team was he could switch any position, literally scaring usage guys coming off picks. most of the teens, he was to be watched for hilariously stoopit decisions and glorious losses of handle with those presidentially tiny hands. whoever got to him and convinced him that his feet would allow him to slow all other aspects of his game down til he got it right deserves almost as much ccredit as Jay does for doing the work.
EYLive
Footballguy
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Yeah but hold off until tomorrow. I’m going to tag the people who might guest judge with the rosters and timing so they don’t have to wade through the whole thread.
EYLive
Footballguy
Or Jamal Crawford, Roy Hibbert, or Thaddeus Young. I know some drafters picked joke/shtick teams that kinda jerks\ with the integrity of the draft, but there are a handful of players that deserved to be picked.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
I’m definitely factoring career accomplishments into my rankings. I’m thinking I maybe should have done a 2020s decade since it seems a lot of the 2010s players were overshadowed by current players being drafted in their prime. Plus with the stat inflation the past few years it’s hard to compare averages with the earlier 2010s guys.
Jayrod
Footballguy
If Advanced statistics can be believed, Nikola jokic is the greatest NBA player of all time. At least for one season anyway. Dude is crushing it.
EYLive
Footballguy
:whoooooosh:
That was your credibility flying out the window! Also your eligibility to judge any category falling off a cliff.
Had this draft gone a few rounds longer, you would have drafted Rebecca Lobo.
trader jake
Footballguy
Agreed, and no matter how much people argue beforehand...judges will judge however they see fit. One item I hope to see judges stress is defense. It's easy to get enamored with the best of the best offensive players, but if that squad has 3-4 players that can really only produce with the ball in their hands they'll get knocked in my ranks. They'll get knocked a lot if squads don't have multiple good defensive players. One guy with a few all-defensive listings isn't enough. Same with a slew of inside/outside players, especially at the 3-5. If all of those guys are soft jump shooters - good luck. If they're all bangers that can only defend the post - good luck. Again, this is all subjective, but I will probably be taking defense and team building into account much, much more than most rankers. If a team can only score or defend in one way that's gonna be a rough day on the virtual court in my eyes.
trader jake
Footballguy
[Removed 60s and prior players to avoid spotlighting]
Top “career” players from each decade I believe would have been selected had we added 6th men:
Fred Brown PG 1970s
Eddie A. Johnson SF 1980s
Jerome Kersey SF 1990s
Zydrunas Ilgauskas C 2000s - At least one drafter took him but changed their mind, I saw a spreadsheet swap!
Kevin Martin SG 2010s +
Per minute players/accomplishments that could have easily made the cut:
Tony Allen SG 2010s + - With all the offense out there, he had to fit on a squad somewhere
Ricky Pierce SG 1980s
Clifford Ray C 1970s - I was surprised someone didn't land this big man
Mitch Kupchak PF 1970s
Round 29/30 players I considered:
Hedo Turkoglu SF 2000s - Only him getting busted for performance substance stuff kept him off my team
Caron Butler SF 2000s
Jose Calderon PG 2010s + - Statistical marvel, for team in need of stability at the 1
Gorin Dragic PG 2010s +
Other players I’d consider had the draft went differently/6th man added:
Clark Kellogg PF 1980s - Special K was much better than I thought, pound at the 4
Kelly Tripucka SF 1980s
Rodney McCray SF 1980s - Versatile wing for a team build
Quinn Buckner PG 1980s
Jim Jackson SG 1990s
B.J. Armstrong PG 1990s - Ball dominant 2 or 3 on a team that needs a shooter at the 1
Phil Smith SG 1970s
Jimmy Walker PG 1970s
Zion Williamson PF 2010s + - When in doubt, go with the talent
Top “career” players from each decade I believe would have been selected had we added 6th men:
Fred Brown PG 1970s
Eddie A. Johnson SF 1980s
Jerome Kersey SF 1990s
Zydrunas Ilgauskas C 2000s - At least one drafter took him but changed their mind, I saw a spreadsheet swap!
Kevin Martin SG 2010s +
Per minute players/accomplishments that could have easily made the cut:
Tony Allen SG 2010s + - With all the offense out there, he had to fit on a squad somewhere
Ricky Pierce SG 1980s
Clifford Ray C 1970s - I was surprised someone didn't land this big man
Mitch Kupchak PF 1970s
Round 29/30 players I considered:
Hedo Turkoglu SF 2000s - Only him getting busted for performance substance stuff kept him off my team
Caron Butler SF 2000s
Jose Calderon PG 2010s + - Statistical marvel, for team in need of stability at the 1
Gorin Dragic PG 2010s +
Other players I’d consider had the draft went differently/6th man added:
Clark Kellogg PF 1980s - Special K was much better than I thought, pound at the 4
Kelly Tripucka SF 1980s
Rodney McCray SF 1980s - Versatile wing for a team build
Quinn Buckner PG 1980s
Jim Jackson SG 1990s
B.J. Armstrong PG 1990s - Ball dominant 2 or 3 on a team that needs a shooter at the 1
Phil Smith SG 1970s
Jimmy Walker PG 1970s
Zion Williamson PF 2010s + - When in doubt, go with the talent
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Some of his accomplishments were crazy. In the 61-62 season, he averaged 38/19/5 while on active duty with the Army.
This tweet lays out the crazy timeline he had that year to play games while on active duty.
Doug B
Footballguy
Was down to McCray and Thurl Bailey as my fifth 80s guy.
...
And was down to Zion Williamson, Derrick Favors, and Domantas Sabonis as my 2010s PF. If Zion rebounded more prolifically, I'd have probably pulled the trigger.
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modogg
Footballguy
i was thinking the same thing when i started looking at my 2010s after i grabbed Embiid and Monta. If we had gone with 2020s draft it would have been real fun to look at again in 2 years and see how close we were to being spot on with some picks. could have mixed in some guys not drafted yet too
modogg
Footballguy
we could think about post judging on this one to run a 10-man 2020's teams. I was really curious if we did that where Lebron would be drafted. Maybe with that draft we cut off stats only count that occurred in that exact decade, so guys like Draymond Green and Seth Curry have to be factored a little differently rather than their whole career. basic idea of who can age well or not
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