Yo Mama
Footballguy
I really liked doing the what if sports drafts before the season every year - 30 teams, 18 players each. Then we had a simulated season based on the real nba results.
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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Yo Mama
- Start date
scoobus
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
I looked long and hard at Hedo, over Chandler, but decided a heliocentric offense around McGrady would be better suited with more defense and I'd have the juice needed to win rockfights.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Frosty's 60s Team:
PG - Bob Cousy: HOF, 13x All-Star, 12x All-NBA, MVP, 6x Champ, 8x Assist Leader, 20th All-Time in Assists, 19.8ppg, 5.4rpg, 8.6apg
SG - Bill Sharman: HOF, 8x All-Star, 7x All-NBA, MVP, 4x Champ, 14th All-time FT %, 20.2ppg, 4.1rpg, 3.3apg
SF - George Yardley: HOF, 6x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, 1x Scoring Champ, 20.8pg, 9.3rpg, 1.8apg
PF - Don Kojis: 2x All-Star, 19.6ppg, 9.1rpg, 2.3apg
C - Willis Reed: HOF, 7x All-Star, 5x All-NBA, 1x MVP, 2x Finals MVP, 2x NBA Champ, 1x All-Defense, ROY, 20.1ppg, 13.8rpg, 1.8apg
The strength of this squad is, well, basically everywhere. We have 4 Hall-of-Famers who combined for 34 All-Star games and 26 All-NBA Teams. The balance between a strong backcourt in Cousy and Sharman (who, btw, won four titles together) and Willis Reed in the middle should ensure a killer offense, and those three will attract so much attention that a former scoring champ, 6x all-star and scoring leader (Yardley) will be open plenty, and even fifth option Kojis averaged over 20 per game at his best.
Defense is a little tougher considering there weren't really any defense stats back then, and only two of my guys even played after the all-defensive team was even a thing. But Reed does have an All-Defense, and the great rebounding numbers on the rest of the guys suggest they're tough, if nothing else (team averages are 5.4, 4.1, 9.3, 9.1, and 13.8 rpg) and Cousy has pretty good defensive reputation.
Basically we can look at the 1960s Celtics and their 8-million titles as this team's template. You have the exact same 2 guards, Willis Reed playing the Bill Russell role (about the best poor man's Russell you could find), Yardley as our Heinshohn, and then Kojis as our other guy. I have four Hall of Famers who can reasonable approximate the greatest dynasty of that era, and you don't.
PG - Bob Cousy: HOF, 13x All-Star, 12x All-NBA, MVP, 6x Champ, 8x Assist Leader, 20th All-Time in Assists, 19.8ppg, 5.4rpg, 8.6apg
SG - Bill Sharman: HOF, 8x All-Star, 7x All-NBA, MVP, 4x Champ, 14th All-time FT %, 20.2ppg, 4.1rpg, 3.3apg
SF - George Yardley: HOF, 6x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, 1x Scoring Champ, 20.8pg, 9.3rpg, 1.8apg
PF - Don Kojis: 2x All-Star, 19.6ppg, 9.1rpg, 2.3apg
C - Willis Reed: HOF, 7x All-Star, 5x All-NBA, 1x MVP, 2x Finals MVP, 2x NBA Champ, 1x All-Defense, ROY, 20.1ppg, 13.8rpg, 1.8apg
The strength of this squad is, well, basically everywhere. We have 4 Hall-of-Famers who combined for 34 All-Star games and 26 All-NBA Teams. The balance between a strong backcourt in Cousy and Sharman (who, btw, won four titles together) and Willis Reed in the middle should ensure a killer offense, and those three will attract so much attention that a former scoring champ, 6x all-star and scoring leader (Yardley) will be open plenty, and even fifth option Kojis averaged over 20 per game at his best.
Defense is a little tougher considering there weren't really any defense stats back then, and only two of my guys even played after the all-defensive team was even a thing. But Reed does have an All-Defense, and the great rebounding numbers on the rest of the guys suggest they're tough, if nothing else (team averages are 5.4, 4.1, 9.3, 9.1, and 13.8 rpg) and Cousy has pretty good defensive reputation.
Basically we can look at the 1960s Celtics and their 8-million titles as this team's template. You have the exact same 2 guards, Willis Reed playing the Bill Russell role (about the best poor man's Russell you could find), Yardley as our Heinshohn, and then Kojis as our other guy. I have four Hall of Famers who can reasonable approximate the greatest dynasty of that era, and you don't.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
Instinctive's Top 3 60's (and earlier) Team:
PG: Oscar Robertson
SG: Carl Braun
SF: Joe Fulks
PF: Maurice Stokes
C : Nate Thurmond
From a teambuilding perspective, this is either the best or second best top two players of any team we've created in this era (Russell/Petit, depending on how you feel about cannibalizing each other in the frontcourt, would be a fine choice as well as Cousy/Reed, who I think fit well together).
Core accomplishments:
Thoughts:
People couldn't shoot until like the 80s. So rebounding and dunking mattered a lot. Enter a big SF in Fulks, potentially the most talented PF of all time in Stokes, and the second greatest rebounding and defensive center ever (after Russell) with Nate Thurmond, the Chairman of the Boards.
If your team doesn't have 5 hall of famers, you are, and should be judged, at a distinct disadvantage. There are tons of HOFers in this timeframe because of the expanded decades period (all basketball before 1970).
Pretty solid defensive team with Thurmond anchoring anything - google him, the quotes your find from Kareem and Russell are complimentary in the extreme (Kareem said he was the hardest guy to score on in his entire career) and he held Wilt in his prime to zero points (only guy to do so, I believe).
Oscar Robertson is legendary for many reasons beyond the triple-double for a season. He's an MVP, and as a PG at 6'5", 200+ pounds, he was basically the first monster at the position physically.
Fulks puts the ball in the basket (he's have been an MVP in the 40s/50s at least once if the award existed then).
Stokes was incredible. If he hadn't become paralyzed on the court in the playoffs of his third season, there's a decent chance he'd have been a 1st round pick in this draft. He could do it all - defense, scoring, rebounding, and a solid passer.
Here's what matters on this team: 4 guys really score. Thurmond scores without the ball, particularly crashing the boards and on the pick and roll. Oscar is the maestro, getting everyone the ball when they need it and totally deconstructing the defense with his handle and skip passing. Stokes is a beast with his back to the basket if we need it, and Fulks can go down low as well, especially if any of the small guards of the era need to switch, although he's not got much of a handle.
All in all, I expect these guys to compete, to shut down the behemoth centers of the day, and to totally own the glass, a key component of winning in this timeframe. Add to that the Big O running point and dwarfing others at his position, and I think there's a recipe for a big time run here.
PG: Oscar Robertson
SG: Carl Braun
SF: Joe Fulks
PF: Maurice Stokes
C : Nate Thurmond
From a teambuilding perspective, this is either the best or second best top two players of any team we've created in this era (Russell/Petit, depending on how you feel about cannibalizing each other in the frontcourt, would be a fine choice as well as Cousy/Reed, who I think fit well together).
Core accomplishments:
- 5/5 Hall of fame players
- 29 All star selections (out of 52 total seasons, so my guys were all-stars over 50% of the time)
- 20 All-NBA selections (poor Nate Thurmond played every year with two of Wilt, Russell, Kareem in the league before there was a 3rd all NBA team
- MVP
- 6 assist titles, two scoring titles, a rebounding title
- 2 rookies of the year and another on all rookie team
- 3 championships, with only 1 total season of play on the Celtics
Thoughts:
People couldn't shoot until like the 80s. So rebounding and dunking mattered a lot. Enter a big SF in Fulks, potentially the most talented PF of all time in Stokes, and the second greatest rebounding and defensive center ever (after Russell) with Nate Thurmond, the Chairman of the Boards.
If your team doesn't have 5 hall of famers, you are, and should be judged, at a distinct disadvantage. There are tons of HOFers in this timeframe because of the expanded decades period (all basketball before 1970).
Pretty solid defensive team with Thurmond anchoring anything - google him, the quotes your find from Kareem and Russell are complimentary in the extreme (Kareem said he was the hardest guy to score on in his entire career) and he held Wilt in his prime to zero points (only guy to do so, I believe).
Oscar Robertson is legendary for many reasons beyond the triple-double for a season. He's an MVP, and as a PG at 6'5", 200+ pounds, he was basically the first monster at the position physically.
Fulks puts the ball in the basket (he's have been an MVP in the 40s/50s at least once if the award existed then).
Stokes was incredible. If he hadn't become paralyzed on the court in the playoffs of his third season, there's a decent chance he'd have been a 1st round pick in this draft. He could do it all - defense, scoring, rebounding, and a solid passer.
Here's what matters on this team: 4 guys really score. Thurmond scores without the ball, particularly crashing the boards and on the pick and roll. Oscar is the maestro, getting everyone the ball when they need it and totally deconstructing the defense with his handle and skip passing. Stokes is a beast with his back to the basket if we need it, and Fulks can go down low as well, especially if any of the small guards of the era need to switch, although he's not got much of a handle.
All in all, I expect these guys to compete, to shut down the behemoth centers of the day, and to totally own the glass, a key component of winning in this timeframe. Add to that the Big O running point and dwarfing others at his position, and I think there's a recipe for a big time run here.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Jayrod's 60's Team
PG - Gene Shue - An innovator as a player and a coach, Shue is credited with inventing the spin-move. A great scorer and all-around player, he led the Pistons to 5 straight playoff appearances during the mid-60's and was named to 5 all-star games and 2 all-NBA teams. His career averages were 14.4pts/4.1rbs/3.7asts with a career peaks of 22.8/5.8/6.8. Had he been surrounded with better talent, he likely would have been considered an all-time great player, but led subpar teams during his peak years.
SG - Richie Guerin - One of the best SG's in the 1960's, Guerin played for a struggling Knicks team but was a beloved player who did everything for his team. He averaged 17.3pts/5.0rbs/5.0asts for his career with a peak season of 29.5/6.4/6.9 in '61-62. In NBA2K he is the starting SG for the Knicks all-time team, showing the level of respect he deserves even across all eras. He was a 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA and a Hall of Famer.
SF - Roger Brown - I snuck this guy in at the end of the era, but my main justification was that he was absolutely screwed out of at least 2 prime years of basketball by the NBA in the beginning of his career in the mid-60s. He was banned after his freshman year at Dayton over a guilt by association case that was most likely fueled by racism and kept him out of pro ball until he was 25 (later rescinded by the NBA and was named a Hall of Famer in 2013). Finally able to play with the start of the ABA, he was recommended by Oscar Robertson and began his career by being named to 2 all-ABA teams and 2 All-star teams in his first 3 years of the late 60's. He would later go on to be a key part of 3 ABA championships and be named to a 3rd all-ABA team and 2 more all-star teams. He is considered by many to be the greatest player to never play in the NBA and averaged 17.4pts/6.2rbs/3.8asts for his career.
PF - Harry Gallatin - "The Horse" was a double-double machine in an era where rebounding is at a premium. He was the rebounding champ in 1954, a HOFer, made 7 all-star teams and was all-NBA twice. Gallatin was more than size and passion; he possessed tremendous physical strength, and playing hard was his calling card. He was also the NBA ironman for the era, playing in 682 consecutive games.
C - Red Kerr - This is easily the best value of my picks in this era. Kerr was the Center for the Syracuse team that won the title in 1955 and played alongside Dolph Schayes for much of their careers (Dolph was really a power forward, NOT a center). He matched up against the likes of Wilt, Russell and Thurmond and held his own night in and night out, avg a double-double. At 6'-9" and 230 lbs, he was a brick house in the paint and wore opponents down with his superior strength. In that same era against the all-time great bigs, he made 3 all-star teams and was an ironman as well, playing nearly every game of his career. He played well into the mid-60's, so his success wasn't just against the slow-whites of the early NBA years.
This is a very balanced team where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The scoring strength is in the backcourt while the frontcourt is a wall of brute strength and endurance for defense and rebounding powered by two double-double ironmen. Wilt could score on them, but he'd earn every point and be wore down by the end of the game. Russell would keep them from scoring, but my 3 perimeter players are the real scorers on this team. I zigged a bit in the 60's era with a guard oriented offense, but not many teams in this era would be able to contain the 3 headed scoring attack from Guerin/Shue/Brown. All 3 were excellent passers as well and by all accounts this is a group of 5 great teammates and leaders. Accumulated, they are 3 hall of famers with 25 all-star games and 10 all-league teams. I don't expect to be in the top tier of teams in this era, but there is a great argument that this team is worthy of a 2nd tier ranking, especially if you look at their ability to matchup and be a problem for their opponents. They would definitely win more than they lost against the other teams assembled in this draft.
PG - Gene Shue - An innovator as a player and a coach, Shue is credited with inventing the spin-move. A great scorer and all-around player, he led the Pistons to 5 straight playoff appearances during the mid-60's and was named to 5 all-star games and 2 all-NBA teams. His career averages were 14.4pts/4.1rbs/3.7asts with a career peaks of 22.8/5.8/6.8. Had he been surrounded with better talent, he likely would have been considered an all-time great player, but led subpar teams during his peak years.
SG - Richie Guerin - One of the best SG's in the 1960's, Guerin played for a struggling Knicks team but was a beloved player who did everything for his team. He averaged 17.3pts/5.0rbs/5.0asts for his career with a peak season of 29.5/6.4/6.9 in '61-62. In NBA2K he is the starting SG for the Knicks all-time team, showing the level of respect he deserves even across all eras. He was a 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA and a Hall of Famer.
SF - Roger Brown - I snuck this guy in at the end of the era, but my main justification was that he was absolutely screwed out of at least 2 prime years of basketball by the NBA in the beginning of his career in the mid-60s. He was banned after his freshman year at Dayton over a guilt by association case that was most likely fueled by racism and kept him out of pro ball until he was 25 (later rescinded by the NBA and was named a Hall of Famer in 2013). Finally able to play with the start of the ABA, he was recommended by Oscar Robertson and began his career by being named to 2 all-ABA teams and 2 All-star teams in his first 3 years of the late 60's. He would later go on to be a key part of 3 ABA championships and be named to a 3rd all-ABA team and 2 more all-star teams. He is considered by many to be the greatest player to never play in the NBA and averaged 17.4pts/6.2rbs/3.8asts for his career.
PF - Harry Gallatin - "The Horse" was a double-double machine in an era where rebounding is at a premium. He was the rebounding champ in 1954, a HOFer, made 7 all-star teams and was all-NBA twice. Gallatin was more than size and passion; he possessed tremendous physical strength, and playing hard was his calling card. He was also the NBA ironman for the era, playing in 682 consecutive games.
C - Red Kerr - This is easily the best value of my picks in this era. Kerr was the Center for the Syracuse team that won the title in 1955 and played alongside Dolph Schayes for much of their careers (Dolph was really a power forward, NOT a center). He matched up against the likes of Wilt, Russell and Thurmond and held his own night in and night out, avg a double-double. At 6'-9" and 230 lbs, he was a brick house in the paint and wore opponents down with his superior strength. In that same era against the all-time great bigs, he made 3 all-star teams and was an ironman as well, playing nearly every game of his career. He played well into the mid-60's, so his success wasn't just against the slow-whites of the early NBA years.
This is a very balanced team where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The scoring strength is in the backcourt while the frontcourt is a wall of brute strength and endurance for defense and rebounding powered by two double-double ironmen. Wilt could score on them, but he'd earn every point and be wore down by the end of the game. Russell would keep them from scoring, but my 3 perimeter players are the real scorers on this team. I zigged a bit in the 60's era with a guard oriented offense, but not many teams in this era would be able to contain the 3 headed scoring attack from Guerin/Shue/Brown. All 3 were excellent passers as well and by all accounts this is a group of 5 great teammates and leaders. Accumulated, they are 3 hall of famers with 25 all-star games and 10 all-league teams. I don't expect to be in the top tier of teams in this era, but there is a great argument that this team is worthy of a 2nd tier ranking, especially if you look at their ability to matchup and be a problem for their opponents. They would definitely win more than they lost against the other teams assembled in this draft.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov60s
I don’t think I need a hard sell here. 38 All Stars, 7 MVPs, 27 All NBAs, 20 NBA Titles, 4 Rebound Titles 2 Scoring Titles, 5 All Star MVPs, 4 Hall of Famers. If they gave out Finals MVPs then I would probably have 7-10 of those as well. I doubt there is a more decorated squad in the whole thing. The play style is perfect for the 60s when outside shooting and above the rim athletic wings hadn’t come into vogue yet.
C Bill Russell is the ultimate defender, rebounder, coach on the floor and team leader
PF Bob Pettit is my scoring machine, the prototype for PFs and basically the Karl Malone of his era
SF Chet the Jet Walker was a precursor to Dr J and about as close to an athletic above the rim wing player as we saw for the era
SG **** Barnett is my jump shooter, advanced stats show for 6-7 years he was among the most efficient shooters in the league and among the tops in win shares
PG Slater Martin HOF PG who specialized in tough perimeter defense and getting the ball inside to Mikan. Replace Mikan with Pettit and Russ should only make him even more effective.
Interior D, outside D, rebounding, toughness, leadership, athleticism, shooting. Team has a mix of everything. I expect Russ to bring home another title.
I don’t think I need a hard sell here. 38 All Stars, 7 MVPs, 27 All NBAs, 20 NBA Titles, 4 Rebound Titles 2 Scoring Titles, 5 All Star MVPs, 4 Hall of Famers. If they gave out Finals MVPs then I would probably have 7-10 of those as well. I doubt there is a more decorated squad in the whole thing. The play style is perfect for the 60s when outside shooting and above the rim athletic wings hadn’t come into vogue yet.
C Bill Russell is the ultimate defender, rebounder, coach on the floor and team leader
PF Bob Pettit is my scoring machine, the prototype for PFs and basically the Karl Malone of his era
SF Chet the Jet Walker was a precursor to Dr J and about as close to an athletic above the rim wing player as we saw for the era
SG **** Barnett is my jump shooter, advanced stats show for 6-7 years he was among the most efficient shooters in the league and among the tops in win shares
PG Slater Martin HOF PG who specialized in tough perimeter defense and getting the ball inside to Mikan. Replace Mikan with Pettit and Russ should only make him even more effective.
Interior D, outside D, rebounding, toughness, leadership, athleticism, shooting. Team has a mix of everything. I expect Russ to bring home another title.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
You can make stats "prove" anything by picking out the right ones. One of my favorite statements of all time:
Statistics never lie........but statisticians do.
trader jake
Footballguy
How does one separate a slew of similar teams - all stacked with Hall of Famers, playing in an era that's tough to break down statistically, with video, or even by memory? With these 1960s and prior squads I'll do so by looking at cohesive team build, leadership, and by difference makers. This starting 5 has all of those qualifications with 4 Hall of Famers, 24-All Star games, 12-All NBAs, 13 Championships, 3 player/coaches, 1 Commissioner, All-Defensive honors (once that finally became a thing), and lead leaders in points, rebounds, assists, FT%, FG%, true shooting, effective FG%, win shares/48, etc. Hall of Fame backcourt with McGuire & Wanzer, all-time legendary glue guy in Satch Sanders, strength and athleticism for the time with Foust, and a true legend of the sport with George Mikan manning the middle. Mikan was so dominant in his time...the league made multiple rules changes to make it more competitive for others.
Bona fides:
PG - **** McGuire - Hall of Famer, 7x NBA All-Star, All-NBA, led league in assists, 3 straight Finals, with brother Al he's part of the only Hall of Fame brother combination in NBA history, player/coach
SG - Bobby Wanzer - Hall of Famer, 5x NBA All-Star, 3x All-NBA, led league in FT% (first player to ever hit over 90%), player/coach, NBA Championship
SF - Satch Sanders - Hall of Famer, 8x NBA Champion with the 60s Celtics Dynasty, NBA All-Defensive team consistently finishing very well in defensive categories, rebounds, and FT% After retiring, he served as a head coach for Harvard Crimson and the Boston Celtics. He was the first African-American to serve as a head coach of any sport in the Ivy League and founded the Rookie Transition Program - the first such program in any major American sport.
PF - Larry Foust - Averaged a double-double and was selected to eight all-star games, multiple All-NBAs, and he won a rebounding title. During various seasons he led in FG%, true shooting, effective FG%, win shares/48, and was consistently among the league leaders in win shares (both offensive and defensive). “When author Robert Cohen selected an all-star team from 1946 to 1960 he noted, “[Foust] in many ways represented one of the finest early prototypes of what eventually became the modernized basketball big man. Although Foust had considerable bulk and displayed a great deal of aggression under the boards, he also exhibited a fair amount of agility and ballhandling skills."
C - George Mikan - Hall of Famer, 6x time All-NBA, 5x Champions, MVP, 3x scoring champ, Rebounding champ, etc, etc. He was THE player in the early days of the league and would later go on to be the Commissioner of the ABA, bringing gravitas and legitimacy to the league just by attaching his name to it. He also fought to increase league pensions for older players and worked behind the scenes to bring a team back to Minnesota when the Timberwolves formed. His toughness was legendary, leading his team to one of his five championship wins in 1950 while playing with a broken wrist. The following season he played in the playoffs with a plate taped to his fractured leg. This in a career where he broke ten bones and reportedly received over 160 stitches while manning the middle. Remember that when your favorite player sits out every second game of back-to-backs.
Bona fides:
PG - **** McGuire - Hall of Famer, 7x NBA All-Star, All-NBA, led league in assists, 3 straight Finals, with brother Al he's part of the only Hall of Fame brother combination in NBA history, player/coach
SG - Bobby Wanzer - Hall of Famer, 5x NBA All-Star, 3x All-NBA, led league in FT% (first player to ever hit over 90%), player/coach, NBA Championship
SF - Satch Sanders - Hall of Famer, 8x NBA Champion with the 60s Celtics Dynasty, NBA All-Defensive team consistently finishing very well in defensive categories, rebounds, and FT% After retiring, he served as a head coach for Harvard Crimson and the Boston Celtics. He was the first African-American to serve as a head coach of any sport in the Ivy League and founded the Rookie Transition Program - the first such program in any major American sport.
PF - Larry Foust - Averaged a double-double and was selected to eight all-star games, multiple All-NBAs, and he won a rebounding title. During various seasons he led in FG%, true shooting, effective FG%, win shares/48, and was consistently among the league leaders in win shares (both offensive and defensive). “When author Robert Cohen selected an all-star team from 1946 to 1960 he noted, “[Foust] in many ways represented one of the finest early prototypes of what eventually became the modernized basketball big man. Although Foust had considerable bulk and displayed a great deal of aggression under the boards, he also exhibited a fair amount of agility and ballhandling skills."
C - George Mikan - Hall of Famer, 6x time All-NBA, 5x Champions, MVP, 3x scoring champ, Rebounding champ, etc, etc. He was THE player in the early days of the league and would later go on to be the Commissioner of the ABA, bringing gravitas and legitimacy to the league just by attaching his name to it. He also fought to increase league pensions for older players and worked behind the scenes to bring a team back to Minnesota when the Timberwolves formed. His toughness was legendary, leading his team to one of his five championship wins in 1950 while playing with a broken wrist. The following season he played in the playoffs with a plate taped to his fractured leg. This in a career where he broke ten bones and reportedly received over 160 stitches while manning the middle. Remember that when your favorite player sits out every second game of back-to-backs.
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Kev4029
Footballguy
Kev's 60s - Peak seasons for all 5
PG - KC Jones (303rd pick overall / 49th era) - He was the glue guy for 8 championship teams, defending at a high level and getting the right guy the ball. He quickly developed into the best defensive guard in the NBA - Russell and Jones lead the Celtics to the #1 defense in each of Jones’ 9 seasons. In his each of his first three years as a starter, he was #3 in the league in assists and the Celtics net rating actually increased when Cousy retired.
SG - Jerry West (15 / 4) - There are two reasonable choices for best guard in the 50s/60s, and West is one of them. West did a little bit of everything on the court - he was one of the best defensive guards of his era, he was a fantastic shooter and scorer, ball handler, and teammate. For the decade, he was #3 in WS, #5 in PER, #4 in points, #4 in assists, #3 in rebounds for a guard, and #2 in TS% for guards. Here is a stat that matters for this discussion - West is #6 all time in WS/48 in the playoffs - ahead of WIlt AND Russell.
SF - Tom Gola (335 / 53) - Another all-around talent. Gola handled and passed like a PG (finished top 10 in APG 4 times ), rebounded like a big (finished top 16 in RPG 5 times), averaged 14 PPG through his prime, and amassed 23 total triple doubles in his career. On top of all the counting stats, Gola was an athletic and tenacious defender who was one of the best wing defenders of his day. Generally regarded as one of the best college players ever (still holds the NCAA record for career rebounds)
PF - Dave Debusschere (111 / 20) - Yet another guy that did a little bit of everything, but a whole lot of defense and was generally regarded as the best forward defender up to that point in the NBA. He only made the All-NBA team once, but he made the All-Defense 1st team every year of his career in which it existed. Bill Simmons swears he would have been the best 3-point shooting forward of the era.
C- Neil Johnston (146 / 26) - It’s always hard to judge the players of the 50s that didn’t really overlap with the players from the mid-60s when the NBA became something similar to what we know today, but Johnston absolutely dominated at center in the “shoulder seasons” between Mikan and Russell. Plus, he looks like the beautiful stallion that sired John Elway.
Per 48
Pts Reb Ast FTA FG% TS% WS WS/48 PER
Dave DeBusschere 21.1 13.6 4.5 4.1 0.441 0.474 18.50 0.103 15.8
Tom Gola 18.6 13.9 6.6 6.5 0.418 0.488 24.50 0.160 16.9
Neil Johnston 25.4 14.6 3.1 12.0 0.447 0.534 49.00 0.251 25.6
KC Jones 13.2 6.7 8.2 4.0 0.392 0.425 16.00 0.113 10.4
Jerry West 35.7 7.5 6.5 12.9 0.484 0.569 47.80 0.250 24.6
Total/Average 113.9 56.5 28.9 39.5 0.446 0.514 155.80
When creating fake teams like this, I think you need to have a couple superstars surrounded by what amounts to superstar role players (I tried my best to do that in all six decades).. The talent has to be scalable or you have diminishing returns on talent and players won’t play their roles. I think I nailed that here - Jones, Gola, and Debusschere are three of the best glue-guys ever, Johnston was possibly the best player in the league at his peak, and Jerry West is one of the best regarded teammates and players ever. All 5 made the HOF as players on the backs of their NBA playing careers and all 5 won a title as a starter and major contributor.
The team will be defined defensively - Jones, West, and Debusschere were the best defenders at their positions of the era and Gola would have made a couple All-Defense teams himself if the award existed. It’s tough to out-defense the best defender ever (Russell), but I think this team does it. Otherwise, we’ll beat teams with our diversity of play - everybody passed the ball well for their positions and the trio of Jones/West/Gola could all handle the ball and lead an offense. The big scorers will be Johnston inside and West outside (plus West took it hard to the paint - he still holds the record for most FT made in a season with 840), but Debusschere and Gola can definitely fill it up when needed. We’ll be able to swing it around and push the pace to get some easy buckets for the team. Rebounding is probably the relative weak spot on the team - everybody is okay, nobody is making a big difference on the glass, but with all the steals on defense and buckets on offense, it won't matter.
PG - KC Jones (303rd pick overall / 49th era) - He was the glue guy for 8 championship teams, defending at a high level and getting the right guy the ball. He quickly developed into the best defensive guard in the NBA - Russell and Jones lead the Celtics to the #1 defense in each of Jones’ 9 seasons. In his each of his first three years as a starter, he was #3 in the league in assists and the Celtics net rating actually increased when Cousy retired.
SG - Jerry West (15 / 4) - There are two reasonable choices for best guard in the 50s/60s, and West is one of them. West did a little bit of everything on the court - he was one of the best defensive guards of his era, he was a fantastic shooter and scorer, ball handler, and teammate. For the decade, he was #3 in WS, #5 in PER, #4 in points, #4 in assists, #3 in rebounds for a guard, and #2 in TS% for guards. Here is a stat that matters for this discussion - West is #6 all time in WS/48 in the playoffs - ahead of WIlt AND Russell.
SF - Tom Gola (335 / 53) - Another all-around talent. Gola handled and passed like a PG (finished top 10 in APG 4 times ), rebounded like a big (finished top 16 in RPG 5 times), averaged 14 PPG through his prime, and amassed 23 total triple doubles in his career. On top of all the counting stats, Gola was an athletic and tenacious defender who was one of the best wing defenders of his day. Generally regarded as one of the best college players ever (still holds the NCAA record for career rebounds)
PF - Dave Debusschere (111 / 20) - Yet another guy that did a little bit of everything, but a whole lot of defense and was generally regarded as the best forward defender up to that point in the NBA. He only made the All-NBA team once, but he made the All-Defense 1st team every year of his career in which it existed. Bill Simmons swears he would have been the best 3-point shooting forward of the era.
C- Neil Johnston (146 / 26) - It’s always hard to judge the players of the 50s that didn’t really overlap with the players from the mid-60s when the NBA became something similar to what we know today, but Johnston absolutely dominated at center in the “shoulder seasons” between Mikan and Russell. Plus, he looks like the beautiful stallion that sired John Elway.
Per 48
Pts Reb Ast FTA FG% TS% WS WS/48 PER
Dave DeBusschere 21.1 13.6 4.5 4.1 0.441 0.474 18.50 0.103 15.8
Tom Gola 18.6 13.9 6.6 6.5 0.418 0.488 24.50 0.160 16.9
Neil Johnston 25.4 14.6 3.1 12.0 0.447 0.534 49.00 0.251 25.6
KC Jones 13.2 6.7 8.2 4.0 0.392 0.425 16.00 0.113 10.4
Jerry West 35.7 7.5 6.5 12.9 0.484 0.569 47.80 0.250 24.6
Total/Average 113.9 56.5 28.9 39.5 0.446 0.514 155.80
When creating fake teams like this, I think you need to have a couple superstars surrounded by what amounts to superstar role players (I tried my best to do that in all six decades).. The talent has to be scalable or you have diminishing returns on talent and players won’t play their roles. I think I nailed that here - Jones, Gola, and Debusschere are three of the best glue-guys ever, Johnston was possibly the best player in the league at his peak, and Jerry West is one of the best regarded teammates and players ever. All 5 made the HOF as players on the backs of their NBA playing careers and all 5 won a title as a starter and major contributor.
The team will be defined defensively - Jones, West, and Debusschere were the best defenders at their positions of the era and Gola would have made a couple All-Defense teams himself if the award existed. It’s tough to out-defense the best defender ever (Russell), but I think this team does it. Otherwise, we’ll beat teams with our diversity of play - everybody passed the ball well for their positions and the trio of Jones/West/Gola could all handle the ball and lead an offense. The big scorers will be Johnston inside and West outside (plus West took it hard to the paint - he still holds the record for most FT made in a season with 840), but Debusschere and Gola can definitely fill it up when needed. We’ll be able to swing it around and push the pace to get some easy buckets for the team. Rebounding is probably the relative weak spot on the team - everybody is okay, nobody is making a big difference on the glass, but with all the steals on defense and buckets on offense, it won't matter.
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Here is my 1960's entry into the discussion. I didn't go top end but put together a team that meshed well and would be tough to play against. No big name superstars but a great team construction. 12 Championships, 32 All Star Appearances, 17 All NBA/ABA appearances, 3 All Defensive Team appearances. Without further ado:
As you will see as a theme with most of my submissions this team is built on defense. It is strong at each of the positions and the players fit nicely offensively as they are predicated on movement and quality shooting. It has toughness and everyone is complimentary in style of play. Although this team doesn't have the sheer volume of accolades that a couple of these rosters has it is well put together and would be tough to beat in a playground matchup. Although I don't expect to be in the top 5 I wouldn't expect to be too far behind that. This should be a top 10 squad.
- PG - Larry Costello (Pick 22.07): 12.2 /3.8/4.6 career averages with a PER of 14.5 and WS of 62.7. Costello was one tough guy having torn his achilles in January of 1967 and came back later that season to play in the playoffs. No easy feat by any means. He was a tenacious defender as evidenced by this quotable quote: ''People ask me who gave me the most trouble,'' Cousy, a Hall of Famer who played for the Boston Celtics, said in 1995. ''It wasn't Oscar or Jerry,'' he said of Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. ''Larry had this animal determination.''
- SG - Sam Jones (Pick 5.10): 17.7/4.9/2.5 career averages with a PER of 18.7 and WS of 92.3. Jones was a smooth shooting hall of famer that had perfect form and was nicknamed "Mr. Clutch" from how clutch he was at the end of games. For whatever reason Sam Jones doesn't get the overall recognition he deserves with how good he actually was. Take it from Bob Cousy and Red Auerbach who both credited Jones with contributing to their greatness: According to Cousy, "Sam and Bill Sharman are probably most responsible for me getting into the Hall-of-Fame, because whenever I'd throw them the ball, they’d put it in the damn hole.".....and from Red "I would like to thank Sam Jones for making me a helluva coach."...During their glory years, Jones was the Celtics’ best scorer. He could fill it up from any angle—a kiss off the glass, tear drops over big men's outstretched hands, pull-ups in transition, you name it.
- SF - Joe Caldwell (Pick 16.07): 16.1/5.3/3.4 career averages with a PER of 14.7 and WS of 32.8. A very athletic guy for the times he was nicknamed "Jumping Joe" for his leaping abilities and he excelled on the defensive end making the All defensive teams in both the ABA and NBA. Bob Costas recalls a game between the Spirits of St. Louis and Utah Stars in 1974 in which Caldwell faced off against 19-year-old Moses Malone. Caldwell shut Malone down, holding him to a four-point outing despite Moses’ six-inch height advantage.
- PF - Rudy LaRusso (Pick 17.10): 15.6/9.4/2.1 career averages with a PER of 15.4 and WS of 61.4. One of the league’s original power forwards, the 6-foot-7, 220-pound LaRusso averaged 15.6 points and 9.4 rebounds in 10 NBA seasons. For nearly eight seasons, his strength and defensive prowess provided the perfect complement to Elgin Baylor’s gravity-defying acrobatics in the Lakers’ starting frontcourt. With LaRusso in the starting lineup, the Lakers won Western Conference titles and played in the NBA Finals in 1962, 1963 and 1965. He scored 50 points, his career high, in a game against the St. Louis Hawks on March 14, 1962, and still ranks among the Lakers’ all-time leaders in rebounds.
- C - Dolph Schayes (Pick 6.07): 18.5/12.1/3.1 career averages with a PER of 22.0 and WS of 142.4. In his 16-year career, he led his team into the playoffs 15 times. Schayes was especially known for his deadly, high-arcing, outside set-shot. It arced so high that his teammates referred to it as "Sputnik". Defenders who attempted to deny him the outside shot were confronted by his powerful drive to the basket. Early in Schayes' career, he broke his right arm and played almost an entire season in a cast. Oddly, this injury became a seminal point in his development: he learned to shoot with his off-hand, making him especially difficult to guard. He was a different kind of player for the time: at 6-foot-8, he was among the taller players in the league, but he had an outside shot as accurate as most guards. He was also an exceptional free throw shooter typically among the league leaders. Although he played in the 50's, his game was much more aligned with the current day play of movement and athleticism as we was known as the bridge from the old game to the new game.
As you will see as a theme with most of my submissions this team is built on defense. It is strong at each of the positions and the players fit nicely offensively as they are predicated on movement and quality shooting. It has toughness and everyone is complimentary in style of play. Although this team doesn't have the sheer volume of accolades that a couple of these rosters has it is well put together and would be tough to beat in a playground matchup. Although I don't expect to be in the top 5 I wouldn't expect to be too far behind that. This should be a top 10 squad.
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
60s and Prior Judging
Today, people will be posting writeups of their 60s and prior teams (some already have on this page). They aren’t required to do, though, just if drafters want to. Please try to give them a read before you judge.
All judges are welcome (not just drafters). The more the merrier. There is no specific judging criteria (peak versus career accomplishments), all opinions of what teams are best are welcomed. Some people who have expressed interest or have been following along: @JMon348 @BobbyLayne @Getzlaf15 @Gr00vus @Desert_Power and I’m sure I’m forgetting some (sorry). The link to our spreadsheet is on the first post of the thread if you want.
By 3pm Pacific tomorrow (Wed 3/24), please PM me your rankings for this decade. 16 points for best, 1 point for worst. I’ll consolidate and roll out the results. Then we’ll move on to the 70s.
60s (and Prior) Rosters
@modogg - Don Ohl, Hal Greer, Bob Boozer, Bill Bridges, Zelmo Beaty
@timschochet - Walt Hazzard, Frank Selvy, Jim Pollard, Vern Mikkelson, Wilt Chamberlain
@wikkidpissah - Earl Monroe, Jerry Sloan, Tom Heinsohn, Gus Johnson, Leroy Ellis
@Jayrod - Gene Shue, Richie Guerin, Roger Brown, Harry Gallatin, Red Kerr
@Ilov80s - Slater Martin, **** Barnett, Chet Walker, Bob Petit, Bill Russell
@Frostillicus - Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, George Yardley, Don Kojis, Willis Reed
@EYLive - Guy Rodgers, Terry Dischinger, John Havlicek, Bailey Howell, Wayne Embry
@Instinctive - Oscar Robertson, Carl Braun, Joe Fulks, Maurice Stokes, Nate Thurmond
@trader jake - **** McGuire, Bobby Wanzer, Satch Sanders, Larry Foust, George Mikan
@Gally - Larry Costello, Sam Jones, Joe Caldwell, Rudy LaRusso, Dolph Schayes
@Mister CIA - Butch Komives, Tom Van Arsdale, Happy Hairston, Jerry Lucas, Walter Dukes
@Doug B - Lenny Wilkens, Kevin Loughery, Cliff Hagan, Willie Naulls, Walt Bellamy
@higgins - TBD (you can still get your picks in today)
@scoobus - Bob Davies, Jack Twyman, Paul Arizin, Johnny Green, Clyde Lovelette
@Kev4029 - KC Jones, Jerry West, Tom Gola, Dave Debusschere, Neil Johnston
@Yo Mama - Andy Phillip, **** Van Arsdale, Elgin Baylor, Ed Macauley, Arnie Risen
Today, people will be posting writeups of their 60s and prior teams (some already have on this page). They aren’t required to do, though, just if drafters want to. Please try to give them a read before you judge.
All judges are welcome (not just drafters). The more the merrier. There is no specific judging criteria (peak versus career accomplishments), all opinions of what teams are best are welcomed. Some people who have expressed interest or have been following along: @JMon348 @BobbyLayne @Getzlaf15 @Gr00vus @Desert_Power and I’m sure I’m forgetting some (sorry). The link to our spreadsheet is on the first post of the thread if you want.
By 3pm Pacific tomorrow (Wed 3/24), please PM me your rankings for this decade. 16 points for best, 1 point for worst. I’ll consolidate and roll out the results. Then we’ll move on to the 70s.
60s (and Prior) Rosters
@modogg - Don Ohl, Hal Greer, Bob Boozer, Bill Bridges, Zelmo Beaty
@timschochet - Walt Hazzard, Frank Selvy, Jim Pollard, Vern Mikkelson, Wilt Chamberlain
@wikkidpissah - Earl Monroe, Jerry Sloan, Tom Heinsohn, Gus Johnson, Leroy Ellis
@Jayrod - Gene Shue, Richie Guerin, Roger Brown, Harry Gallatin, Red Kerr
@Ilov80s - Slater Martin, **** Barnett, Chet Walker, Bob Petit, Bill Russell
@Frostillicus - Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, George Yardley, Don Kojis, Willis Reed
@EYLive - Guy Rodgers, Terry Dischinger, John Havlicek, Bailey Howell, Wayne Embry
@Instinctive - Oscar Robertson, Carl Braun, Joe Fulks, Maurice Stokes, Nate Thurmond
@trader jake - **** McGuire, Bobby Wanzer, Satch Sanders, Larry Foust, George Mikan
@Gally - Larry Costello, Sam Jones, Joe Caldwell, Rudy LaRusso, Dolph Schayes
@Mister CIA - Butch Komives, Tom Van Arsdale, Happy Hairston, Jerry Lucas, Walter Dukes
@Doug B - Lenny Wilkens, Kevin Loughery, Cliff Hagan, Willie Naulls, Walt Bellamy
@higgins - TBD (you can still get your picks in today)
@scoobus - Bob Davies, Jack Twyman, Paul Arizin, Johnny Green, Clyde Lovelette
@Kev4029 - KC Jones, Jerry West, Tom Gola, Dave Debusschere, Neil Johnston
@Yo Mama - Andy Phillip, **** Van Arsdale, Elgin Baylor, Ed Macauley, Arnie Risen
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
Yo Mama's All-60s (and prior) Team
PG - Andy Phillip
Peak (6 Years) - 11p, 6r, 6a
Recognition - HOF, 1 champ, 2 all nba, 5 all star
SG - **** Van Arsdale
Peak (7 Years) - 20p, 5r, 2a, 1stl
Recognition - 3 all star, 1 all d
SF - Elgin Baylor
Peak (12 Years) - 28p, 14r, 4a
Recognition - HOF, 10 all nba, 11 all star
PF - Ed Macauley
Peak (7 Years) - 19p, 8r, 4a
Recognition - HOF, 1 champ, 4 all nba, 7 all star
C - Arnie Risen
Peak (5 Years) - 15p, 11r, 2a
Recognition - HOF, 2 champ, 4 all star
It all starts with the best wing of the decade, Elgin Baylor. Aside from his incredible athleticism and scoring (his 61 points in the ’62 finals is still a record), he was a great all around player who excelled at rebounding (he averaged nearly 20 rebounds a game in ‘60-‘61 despite being only 6’5”) and was a very good passer too. He brought elements to the game that never existed- for instance, he invented the euro-step!! Did I also mention that he was such a star that he made appearances in Rowan and Martin's Laugh In, the Jackson Five's first TV special, and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century – talk about range.
Surrounding Baylor are a HOF PG in Handy Andy, who led the league in assists three times and was also a solid rebounder (plus did I mention he was a Marine at Iwo Jima!), and an excellent all around wing in DVA who will solidify my perimeter defense. To help handle some of the all-time bigs of the decade, I added two HOF big men to my frontcourt with Easy Ed providing great energy and athleticism (as well as league leading shooting %) and the rebounding and defensive interior presence of Stilts Risen.
Four hall of famers, including one of the elite talents of the decade. Plenty of scoring, rebounding, and playmaking. Defense at key positions to help counter the top talent in the decade.
PG - Andy Phillip
Peak (6 Years) - 11p, 6r, 6a
Recognition - HOF, 1 champ, 2 all nba, 5 all star
SG - **** Van Arsdale
Peak (7 Years) - 20p, 5r, 2a, 1stl
Recognition - 3 all star, 1 all d
SF - Elgin Baylor
Peak (12 Years) - 28p, 14r, 4a
Recognition - HOF, 10 all nba, 11 all star
PF - Ed Macauley
Peak (7 Years) - 19p, 8r, 4a
Recognition - HOF, 1 champ, 4 all nba, 7 all star
C - Arnie Risen
Peak (5 Years) - 15p, 11r, 2a
Recognition - HOF, 2 champ, 4 all star
It all starts with the best wing of the decade, Elgin Baylor. Aside from his incredible athleticism and scoring (his 61 points in the ’62 finals is still a record), he was a great all around player who excelled at rebounding (he averaged nearly 20 rebounds a game in ‘60-‘61 despite being only 6’5”) and was a very good passer too. He brought elements to the game that never existed- for instance, he invented the euro-step!! Did I also mention that he was such a star that he made appearances in Rowan and Martin's Laugh In, the Jackson Five's first TV special, and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century – talk about range.
Surrounding Baylor are a HOF PG in Handy Andy, who led the league in assists three times and was also a solid rebounder (plus did I mention he was a Marine at Iwo Jima!), and an excellent all around wing in DVA who will solidify my perimeter defense. To help handle some of the all-time bigs of the decade, I added two HOF big men to my frontcourt with Easy Ed providing great energy and athleticism (as well as league leading shooting %) and the rebounding and defensive interior presence of Stilts Risen.
Four hall of famers, including one of the elite talents of the decade. Plenty of scoring, rebounding, and playmaking. Defense at key positions to help counter the top talent in the decade.
Jayrod
Footballguy
This is going to be the toughest era to judge. It spanned the longest time frame (23 seasons), had a lot of changes (shot clock, # of teams in the league, including black players, etc.) and includes 3 different leagues (BAA, ABA & NBA). There weren't always Finals MVP's or All-Defensive teams and many advanced stats are unavailable until the very end of the era. A lot of subpar players became HOF's due to scarcity of players to include and some coattail riders getting lots of rings.
In other words, outside of a couple of obvious leaders, this whole era feels like a crapshoot. It was why I simultaneously wanted to both wait to invest in the era and also didn't want to punt on it completely. I felt like some good value and team building would be available late and a couple of cheap points picked up in the final rankings as good players slipped through the cracks and some poorer players were picked too early based on # of rings or HOF inclusions.
In other words, outside of a couple of obvious leaders, this whole era feels like a crapshoot. It was why I simultaneously wanted to both wait to invest in the era and also didn't want to punt on it completely. I felt like some good value and team building would be available late and a couple of cheap points picked up in the final rankings as good players slipped through the cracks and some poorer players were picked too early based on # of rings or HOF inclusions.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Desert_Power
Footballguy
What I like about this lineup is that I could easily see these players in their prime fitting really well in today's game.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
wikkidsixties:
G - Earl the Pearl Monroe
G - Jerry Sloan
F - Gus "Honeycomb" Johnson
F - Tommy Heinsohn
C - Leroy Ellis.
hmmmm - has the ol' fart who actually saw the ampit hair of old giant white guys up close taken the most modern team of the NBA's first great decade? maybe so, but i come by it honestly. from 1962 to 1970, i spent my winter Sundays w my Uncle Jimmy and the Gallery Gods @ the Gaaaahden, watching the greatest dynasty in sports history.. thing is, the Celtics were great because they were modern. that '62 team had four black guys in the rotation - Russ, Satch and the Jones boys - as well as two of the most modern white guys in Cousy & rookie Havlicek. their play suggested a new game was coming and, much as i enjoyed weaves & cement picks &, especially, hook shots from trey country, li'l wikkid yearned for that new game.
it came from the also-ran Baltimore Bullets. they had a guy who not only got higher up in the air than anybody else but could do more than one thing while he was up there. i loved it when Uncle Jimmy won at the track on Saturday cuz it meant floor seats on Sunday and, first time i saw Gus Johnson from court level, i started wondering if Jim Brown & Muhammed Ali were indeed the pinnacle of what these cursed people could bring to the sports fan.
and that promise was delivered by Earl Monroe, when he joined Gus Johnson in Baltimore in '68. more sidetracking nostalgia - when me Ma was orphaned in her teens, she was taken in by a li'l Sicilian lady she'd done penny chores for. Mama Puleo had a beautiful brick house with a Godfather courtyard but, from the late 50s to the middle 60s, her Roxbury neighborhood got more & more turbulent with poverty & politics and i watched her place turn from a fairyland to a walled compound. across that wall was a playground with a hot-top court, so i'd seen hints of what was ruling those days. and the Pearl delivered that promise on a professional level, gave this lad the world of fun & wonder he sought, with those was-not-was moves and leaving folks guarding air and such and the game was never the same and that's why he'll always be a 60s player to me.
i dont have any numbers for the rest of my guys, from 60s to '10s, cuz i dont count em. i saw em and know who was better than who. i had Basketball Reference's Top 500 and my memory. so i dont know if Leroy Ellis made an All-Star team at all, nor how many times All-Star or All-anything the others were. Leroy Ellis was a fine center with a modern game who was too slight to stand up to draggin' Russ & Wilt & Walt & Nate up & down the floor but fits my guys. Holy Cross grad Heinsohn was a "regional" player - as were allowed to NBA teams in the 50s - who came up same season as Russ. guess who won Rookie of the Year?! the guy outplayed his skills throughout the 50-60s, totally outcoached the 70s, outyelled the referees from the booth for 40 years and was still being listened to by the Pierces & Smaaaahts til he died last year.
nice ####in' team. beat anyone but the Celtics.
G - Earl the Pearl Monroe
G - Jerry Sloan
F - Gus "Honeycomb" Johnson
F - Tommy Heinsohn
C - Leroy Ellis.
hmmmm - has the ol' fart who actually saw the ampit hair of old giant white guys up close taken the most modern team of the NBA's first great decade? maybe so, but i come by it honestly. from 1962 to 1970, i spent my winter Sundays w my Uncle Jimmy and the Gallery Gods @ the Gaaaahden, watching the greatest dynasty in sports history.. thing is, the Celtics were great because they were modern. that '62 team had four black guys in the rotation - Russ, Satch and the Jones boys - as well as two of the most modern white guys in Cousy & rookie Havlicek. their play suggested a new game was coming and, much as i enjoyed weaves & cement picks &, especially, hook shots from trey country, li'l wikkid yearned for that new game.
it came from the also-ran Baltimore Bullets. they had a guy who not only got higher up in the air than anybody else but could do more than one thing while he was up there. i loved it when Uncle Jimmy won at the track on Saturday cuz it meant floor seats on Sunday and, first time i saw Gus Johnson from court level, i started wondering if Jim Brown & Muhammed Ali were indeed the pinnacle of what these cursed people could bring to the sports fan.
and that promise was delivered by Earl Monroe, when he joined Gus Johnson in Baltimore in '68. more sidetracking nostalgia - when me Ma was orphaned in her teens, she was taken in by a li'l Sicilian lady she'd done penny chores for. Mama Puleo had a beautiful brick house with a Godfather courtyard but, from the late 50s to the middle 60s, her Roxbury neighborhood got more & more turbulent with poverty & politics and i watched her place turn from a fairyland to a walled compound. across that wall was a playground with a hot-top court, so i'd seen hints of what was ruling those days. and the Pearl delivered that promise on a professional level, gave this lad the world of fun & wonder he sought, with those was-not-was moves and leaving folks guarding air and such and the game was never the same and that's why he'll always be a 60s player to me.
i dont have any numbers for the rest of my guys, from 60s to '10s, cuz i dont count em. i saw em and know who was better than who. i had Basketball Reference's Top 500 and my memory. so i dont know if Leroy Ellis made an All-Star team at all, nor how many times All-Star or All-anything the others were. Leroy Ellis was a fine center with a modern game who was too slight to stand up to draggin' Russ & Wilt & Walt & Nate up & down the floor but fits my guys. Holy Cross grad Heinsohn was a "regional" player - as were allowed to NBA teams in the 50s - who came up same season as Russ. guess who won Rookie of the Year?! the guy outplayed his skills throughout the 50-60s, totally outcoached the 70s, outyelled the referees from the booth for 40 years and was still being listened to by the Pierces & Smaaaahts til he died last year.
nice ####in' team. beat anyone but the Celtics.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Thanks for the consideration. I'm going to bow out as I don't feel like I have enough expertise to make satisfactory assessments (or comments). Also, I'd want to give it the time it deserves, and I just don't have it. I'll keep lurking though.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
For me (and I’m probably the exception to the rule) the ring is the thing across eras. You can’t compare Mikan to anyone to anyone, it’s a singular case, but he was nearly as dominant versus his peers as anyone the game as seen and forced sport wide rules changes. That’s a helluva legacy.
Cousy, Joe Fulks and Slater Martin probably would be on the end of a bench if they broke in the first year of the ABA but they were awesome against their cohorts. Then again I’d rank Nat Holman highly if the rules allowed inclusion of The Original Celtics.
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modogg
Footballguy
MoDogg's 60's:
the judging criteria is probably what will make or break this team. I have some names included here, but the 60s and 70s were so Lakers and Celtics centric that casual fans probably don't know about a lot of these guys. seeing how there was no internet or broadcasting, weighing these guys vs. guys in the 90s and up will be interesting.
Think my team brings a good finished product seeing how the pieces would fit. Definitely brings a good offensive punch, and a lot of these guys can hang with the bigger names of the decade.
Don Ohl 60s PG:
Among the best distance shooters of his time, the 6'3", 190-pound guard scored 11,549 points and appeared in five NBA All-Star Games in his career. Ohl averaged 26.1 points in 10 games that post-season.
6.16 Hal Greer G 60's:
little bit on him, was enjoyable to watch and i see him higher on some all time lists:
The speedy jackrabbit to Wilt Chamberlain's towering colossus, Hal Greer would be the finest guard in the history of the 76ers if not for a certain braided gentleman from Virginia.
Though Chamberlain received much of the press, Greer was with him every step of the way. During the 1967 title season, he scored 22.1 points to Chamberlain's 24.1.
This flipped in the 1967 playoffs, with Greer pouring in 27.7 points, six more than Chamberlain's 21.7.
Greer spent his entire career with the Sixers, appearing in 10 straight All-Star games from 1961 to '70, averaging 19.2 points, 5.0 rebounds and 4.2 assists for his career.
His sustained excellence helps him stand out from some of the other legendary players on this list, but greater heights were reached by the remaining players.
16.16 "Bullet Boy" Bob Boozer SF
- Played the whole decade in the 60s, so if we are judging based on time played in the decade that should boost Bullet Boy. Had high teens for almost all of it, and was efficient. From the little i have seen, he somes like good addition to my 60s team. Not as long of a career as some others so his overall numbers don’t stand out, but from ‘61 - ‘70 guy was consistent and good for 13-21 ppg, 8.7-10 rebounds/game.
- his efficiency and his consistency should help boost him.
Bill Bridges PF 60s.
Guy basically averaged 12-15 rebounds a year during majority of 60s. Had between 11.5 and 17.4 ppg for most of 60s too. I didn’t think my team needed much shooting or points, so thought Bridges fit in good with health and rebounds. Played around 40 minutes a game too. Drew about 5-6 fouls a game
If we are basing judging criteria on how many games played and avoiding injuries, this guy is high up there too, along with his 40 minutes/game
10th round C. Zelmo “BigZ” Beaty
A steal for the draft, i think. Looking into him more, the guy was really good, and dominant. Would be a much bigger name if he didn’t play a lot of time in the ABA.
He averaged better than 17 points and 11 rebounds during his days with the Hawks,
75% from the FT line
2 all star games when all the studs of Wilt nd the rest were dominating the league
one of the NBA's first dominant big men.
the judging criteria is probably what will make or break this team. I have some names included here, but the 60s and 70s were so Lakers and Celtics centric that casual fans probably don't know about a lot of these guys. seeing how there was no internet or broadcasting, weighing these guys vs. guys in the 90s and up will be interesting.
Think my team brings a good finished product seeing how the pieces would fit. Definitely brings a good offensive punch, and a lot of these guys can hang with the bigger names of the decade.
Don Ohl 60s PG:
Among the best distance shooters of his time, the 6'3", 190-pound guard scored 11,549 points and appeared in five NBA All-Star Games in his career. Ohl averaged 26.1 points in 10 games that post-season.
6.16 Hal Greer G 60's:
little bit on him, was enjoyable to watch and i see him higher on some all time lists:
The speedy jackrabbit to Wilt Chamberlain's towering colossus, Hal Greer would be the finest guard in the history of the 76ers if not for a certain braided gentleman from Virginia.
Though Chamberlain received much of the press, Greer was with him every step of the way. During the 1967 title season, he scored 22.1 points to Chamberlain's 24.1.
This flipped in the 1967 playoffs, with Greer pouring in 27.7 points, six more than Chamberlain's 21.7.
Greer spent his entire career with the Sixers, appearing in 10 straight All-Star games from 1961 to '70, averaging 19.2 points, 5.0 rebounds and 4.2 assists for his career.
His sustained excellence helps him stand out from some of the other legendary players on this list, but greater heights were reached by the remaining players.
16.16 "Bullet Boy" Bob Boozer SF
- Played the whole decade in the 60s, so if we are judging based on time played in the decade that should boost Bullet Boy. Had high teens for almost all of it, and was efficient. From the little i have seen, he somes like good addition to my 60s team. Not as long of a career as some others so his overall numbers don’t stand out, but from ‘61 - ‘70 guy was consistent and good for 13-21 ppg, 8.7-10 rebounds/game.
- his efficiency and his consistency should help boost him.
Bill Bridges PF 60s.
Guy basically averaged 12-15 rebounds a year during majority of 60s. Had between 11.5 and 17.4 ppg for most of 60s too. I didn’t think my team needed much shooting or points, so thought Bridges fit in good with health and rebounds. Played around 40 minutes a game too. Drew about 5-6 fouls a game
If we are basing judging criteria on how many games played and avoiding injuries, this guy is high up there too, along with his 40 minutes/game
10th round C. Zelmo “BigZ” Beaty
A steal for the draft, i think. Looking into him more, the guy was really good, and dominant. Would be a much bigger name if he didn’t play a lot of time in the ABA.
He averaged better than 17 points and 11 rebounds during his days with the Hawks,
75% from the FT line
2 all star games when all the studs of Wilt nd the rest were dominating the league
one of the NBA's first dominant big men.
Jayrod
Footballguy
For the top guys, sure, but there is always the Robert Horry argument. Barkley, Stockton and Malone were 1,000x's the players Horry was, but the ring score is 7-0.
Personally, I value MVP's and all-league awards above all else (not including ASG's in that...too much of a popularity contest, plus it is a midseason award). There may be some media bias in those awards, but they are full season individual awards that include a team success factor, but don't rely on the teammates as much as rings do.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I'll say a few things though on cursory impressions of the rosters.
Higgins's 60's team isn't winning anything.
@timschochet's 60's team,
@wikkidpissah's 80s team
@modogg's 90s team,
@Gally's & @scoobus's 00s teams
@Jayrod's 10s team
stand out to me.
There are several really good 70's teams - seems like that'll be the toughest decade to call.
I think @modogg's 90's team might be the best overall. Having Jordan helps, but the rest of the team is really good too.
Overall the talent seems very evenly distributed - I'd love to have seen any of these decades' collections of teams play a season.
Higgins's 60's team isn't winning anything.
@timschochet's 60's team,
@wikkidpissah's 80s team
@modogg's 90s team,
@Gally's & @scoobus's 00s teams
@Jayrod's 10s team
stand out to me.
There are several really good 70's teams - seems like that'll be the toughest decade to call.
I think @modogg's 90's team might be the best overall. Having Jordan helps, but the rest of the team is really good too.
Overall the talent seems very evenly distributed - I'd love to have seen any of these decades' collections of teams play a season.
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Too add a bit to this, this draft isn't about the best players. It's about the best teams constructed for the era. Individual accolades are nice but not all individuals can fit into a team and win (there are few out there that know who they are). My hope is that judges really factor in team construction as a big factor (hopefully the biggest factor) but that is a much harder effort for sure.
Regardless I have already learned a bunch of stuff I didn't know before and expect that to continue so it's a win no matter what the score shows.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
For rankings, I’d prefer you didn’t do ties, but if you do make sure to do it right.
For example, if you have a tie for second place (after my team is first place of course), don’t give them both 15 points. They would both get 14.5 points (average of 15 and 14 points for the next two spots).
This will greatly help my math related ocd.
For example, if you have a tie for second place (after my team is first place of course), don’t give them both 15 points. They would both get 14.5 points (average of 15 and 14 points for the next two spots).
This will greatly help my math related ocd.
scoobus
Footballguy
Team Synergy 60s
PG Bob Davies- 4x All-Star, 5x All-BAA/NBA, NBA champ, HOF
SG Jack Twyman- 6x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, HOF, averaged 31/9 during '60 season
SF Paul Arizin- 10x All-Star, 4x All-NBA, 2x scoring champ, NBA champ, HOF, on a bunch of top 10 SFs of all-time lists, invented the freaking jump shot
PF Johnny Green- 4x All-Star, averaged a double-double in 5 different seasons
C Clyde Lovelette- 4x All-Star, All-NBA, 3x NBA champ, HOF, averaged a double-double in 6 different seasons
Unbelievable.
PG Bob Davies- 4x All-Star, 5x All-BAA/NBA, NBA champ, HOF
SG Jack Twyman- 6x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, HOF, averaged 31/9 during '60 season
SF Paul Arizin- 10x All-Star, 4x All-NBA, 2x scoring champ, NBA champ, HOF, on a bunch of top 10 SFs of all-time lists, invented the freaking jump shot
PF Johnny Green- 4x All-Star, averaged a double-double in 5 different seasons
C Clyde Lovelette- 4x All-Star, All-NBA, 3x NBA champ, HOF, averaged a double-double in 6 different seasons
Unbelievable.
Zegras11
Footballguy
This is all subject to change, but here's how I'm thinking of judging.....
KInda of like a boxing per round thing.... Position vs Position for each team vs each team. Each position will score a 15-max. So it could be 15-13, 15-8, 15-14, etc.... And then an overall team score with a 25-max. Teams will then get a W or an L. Then I'll rank by W/L record, with any ties broken by h2h matchup.
Scoring, passing , rebounding, and defense will be ranked pretty evenly. Impact on the era will also be taken into consideration.
Team score will be heavily scored on how you meshed your team together. The solid, defensive minded, rebounding F that won some titles is going to help your team score as that part is just as huge a part as any other part of a team IMO. The great teams all had a guy like that.
I played hoops all the way through HS, and then hurt my knee. Likely would have played small college ball if no knee issues. Have coached at various levels (kids thru adult A leagues) and won many of those leagues.
I'll be doing up to the '90's . Followed the NBA on a daily basis until then
Also putting all your writeups on a spread sheet, so appreciate all that have sent them in
KInda of like a boxing per round thing.... Position vs Position for each team vs each team. Each position will score a 15-max. So it could be 15-13, 15-8, 15-14, etc.... And then an overall team score with a 25-max. Teams will then get a W or an L. Then I'll rank by W/L record, with any ties broken by h2h matchup.
Scoring, passing , rebounding, and defense will be ranked pretty evenly. Impact on the era will also be taken into consideration.
Team score will be heavily scored on how you meshed your team together. The solid, defensive minded, rebounding F that won some titles is going to help your team score as that part is just as huge a part as any other part of a team IMO. The great teams all had a guy like that.
I played hoops all the way through HS, and then hurt my knee. Likely would have played small college ball if no knee issues. Have coached at various levels (kids thru adult A leagues) and won many of those leagues.
I'll be doing up to the '90's . Followed the NBA on a daily basis until then
Also putting all your writeups on a spread sheet, so appreciate all that have sent them in
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EYLive
Footballguy
Reminder of my 60's team:
Guy Rodgers, PG
Hall of Fame
4× NBA All-Star (1963, 1964, 1966, 1967)
2× NBA assists leader (1963, 1967)
In the 66-67 season, Rodgers averaged a bonkers 18 points, 11 assists and 4 rebounds.
Terry Dischinger, SG
His ROY stats: 25.5PPG, 8 Reb, 3 Assists on 51% shooting.
3× NBA All-Star (1963–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1963)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1963)
2× Consensus first-team All-American (1961, 1962)
Consensus second-team All-American (1960)
Second-team Parade All-American (1958)
John Havlicek, SF
Hall of Fame
Career Averages: 20.8 points, 6.3 rebounds, 4.8 assists
Championships: 8
All-Star: 13x
All-NBA: 4x First Team, 7x Second Team
All-Defensive: 8x
1960 NCAA champion with Ohio State
Bailey Howell, PF
Hall of Fame
A 6-time All-Star.
Averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds per game for the decade.
Wayne Embry, C
Hall of Fame
NBA champion (1968)
5× NBA All-Star (1961–1965)
Peak Year: 1961-1962 19.8 Points, 13.0 Rebounds, 2.4 Assists
Guy Rodgers, PG
Hall of Fame
4× NBA All-Star (1963, 1964, 1966, 1967)
2× NBA assists leader (1963, 1967)
In the 66-67 season, Rodgers averaged a bonkers 18 points, 11 assists and 4 rebounds.
Terry Dischinger, SG
His ROY stats: 25.5PPG, 8 Reb, 3 Assists on 51% shooting.
3× NBA All-Star (1963–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1963)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1963)
2× Consensus first-team All-American (1961, 1962)
Consensus second-team All-American (1960)
Second-team Parade All-American (1958)
John Havlicek, SF
Hall of Fame
Career Averages: 20.8 points, 6.3 rebounds, 4.8 assists
Championships: 8
All-Star: 13x
All-NBA: 4x First Team, 7x Second Team
All-Defensive: 8x
1960 NCAA champion with Ohio State
Bailey Howell, PF
Hall of Fame
A 6-time All-Star.
Averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds per game for the decade.
Wayne Embry, C
Hall of Fame
NBA champion (1968)
5× NBA All-Star (1961–1965)
Peak Year: 1961-1962 19.8 Points, 13.0 Rebounds, 2.4 Assists
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Jayrod
Footballguy
No kidding. I thought my team would fair better than they are, but I just can't justify ranking them above a lot of very good teams.
Zegras11
Footballguy
I just finished loading them w/o your names on my my spreadsheet. Looked like a lot of good teams that many only had one semi-weak link.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Yo Mama
Footballguy
While we’re talking about the 60s, is there a crazier MVP race than in 1961-1962?
Bill Russell - 19/24/5 (MVP)
Elgin Baylor - 38/19/4
Wilt Chamberlain - 50/26/2
Oscar Robertson - 31/13/11
Stats comparison
Bill Russell - 19/24/5 (MVP)
Elgin Baylor - 38/19/4
Wilt Chamberlain - 50/26/2
Oscar Robertson - 31/13/11
Stats comparison
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Guess I was busy yesterday & this morning, just heard about Elgin Baylor passing. He literally saved the Lakers franchise (then in Minneapolis); owner Bob Short said if they hadn’t convinced him to skip his senior year, the team would have folded.
As a rookie he finished 2nd in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, and 8th in assists. The Lakers went from worst in the league (19-53) to making the Finals, solely because Baylor was a force of nature. Wasn’t quite the same guy after his knee surgery in 1965 but still in the conversation for best small forward of all time 60+ years later (Doc, Bird, KD, Bron)
EYLive
Footballguy
Now is a good a time as any to ask all of my fellow drafters what sources (online or otherwise) they used for this draft.
I'll start.
For the early rounds: in.nba.com/news/the-1960s-all-decade-team and I used the links for other decades. Found some good names in the "Apologies to" section.
Slam 500 greatest players from basketball-reference. The list is 10 years old but puts most retired guys in perspective.
The Bleacher Report had a few decade lists that were helpful.
I'll start.
For the early rounds: in.nba.com/news/the-1960s-all-decade-team and I used the links for other decades. Found some good names in the "Apologies to" section.
Slam 500 greatest players from basketball-reference. The list is 10 years old but puts most retired guys in perspective.
The Bleacher Report had a few decade lists that were helpful.
modogg
Footballguy
i used basketball reference a bit, but looked into a ton of stuff. Used reddit looking up certain players to see discussions on them. checked a bunch of top player lists, and some were just plain silly.
I compare it to a lot of today's NBA. name recognition for the mainstream carries more weight then actual play. everybody has been ranking the Nets as #1 team in the East ever since they grabbed Harden, and have been saying they are in cruise control through the East. Sure the Nets have a good team because of their 3, but almost every single discussion/article only talks about those 3 and nothing else on that team
Jayrod
Footballguy
I had built a fairly large spreadsheet with 600 players that included all of their accomplishments, accolades, career averages and advanced stats where I came up with a calculated value for every player.
I had to add a few that were drafted, but weren't on the list. 4 of the bottom 5 guys were on wikkid's 00's team.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
And FYI, this was just the baseline to point out mostly what I already knew, but to let me know if I was way off on how I felt about somebody. There was quite a bit of subjectivity based on team construction, era considerations and any special circumstances that go into my final rankings.I had built a fairly large spreadsheet with 600 players that included all of their accomplishments, accolades, career averages and advanced stats where I came up with a calculated value for every player.
I had to add a few that were drafted, but weren't on the list. 4 of the bottom 5 guys were on wikkid's 00's team.
I certainly didn't draft based on this, but used it to alert me to guys I had forgotten about or wasn't ever aware of.
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Yo Mama
Footballguy
I’ve decided to group them into tiers and then rank them within those tiers, but it’s going to be so hard to do.
trader jake
Footballguy
To begin, yes, I am a total basketball nerd.
Created a spreadsheet that combined the following inputed lists, stats, etc into a single database:- AinsworthSports - The Top Ranked Basketball Players of All-Time #'s 1-1,000 (provided solid initial base list for players to consider/gather data for)
http://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm
[*]Footballguys All-Time Draft from 2001 (previous order of selections was useful, as was reading the breakdowns, strategies, and judging)
[*]Basketball Reference
https://www.basketball-reference.com/
- Took the following stats from it: Rookie Yr From To G MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% WS WS/48, and other advanced stats. Also a great reference for position(s) played and various achievements like Hall of Fame, All-NBA, All-Star games, Defensive Awards, etc
[*]NBA2k - Extensive player rankings in numerous categories taken from the video game This spreadsheet was previously built for another NBA activity and was invaluable. I consider the game a relatively unbiased source and a solid way to compare and contrast players within similar time periods. The rankings included breakdowns in the following categories: Overall Ranking, 3pt, Interior Defense, Perimeter defense, steals, blocks, Def Rebounds, Off Rebounds, Speed, Dunk, etc.
[*]Slam Magazine's Top 500 Players of All-Time (from 2011)
[*]Slam Magazine's Top 100 Players of All-Time (from 2018)
https://www.interbasket.net/news/slam-top-100-nba-players-all-time-full-list/ (I actually own the magazine
)
[*]ESPN Greatest Players Ever
[*]Bill Simmons Hall of Fame Pyramid
[*]Books - Went to the library (yes, an actual library) and checked a few books out. When it came down to a handful of players to consider drafting I'd re-read their player pages or check the index for items of note.
Bill Simmons "The Book of Basketball" (linked above)
- Sports Illustrated "The Basketball Book" (great for decade breakdowns)
- Terry Pluto "Loose Balls" (entire history of ABA)
[*]Wikipedia to do last minute reading for write-ups or stories I may have been unfamiliar with
Final spreadsheet included almost 1,100 players. I did have to add a few names in the finals rounds due to Wikkidpissah's 2000s draft.
Hopefully some of those links still work when the next draft occurs in 2030.
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