Am just so sad (1 Viewer)

[Morton Muffley]

I feel you man. It sucks. You don't want to look back and regret that you blew up a close relationship over politics. As someone who leans left living in Kentucky, I've let so many comments go over the past few years from Trump-loving friends and family. It's getting worse with the COVID stuff though. You can keep thoughts and feelings to yourself but COVID forces us to change our behavior. It puts the differences between us and them out in the open. A lot of them take the precautions we take personally. My wife attended a baby shower today because we didn't feel like dealing with the drama if she declined due to the pandemic. The whole thing totally blows. What makes it maddening is that it's all so unnecessary. Politicizing people's safety? It's hard not to be disgusted by it all.

I gotta say though, I don't think I've had something so overtly disrespectful directed at me or my wife as you've outlined in the OP.  Not sure I could blow that off. That would require a phone call and a bit of assertiveness. Not my place to tell you how to deal with your friends though. You know the situation better than anyone. Just wanted to validate what a crappy situation it is.

Thanks.  We let alot roll off of us, but this one seemed like it needed to be addressed.  Not solved, not blown up...just noted and remarked upon.   Thx for the thoughtful POV

 

[Morton Muffley]

I have a problem with this part of your text:

I don't think it's reasonable to ask a husband/wife to not talk to each other.

I'm very sad that you and the others here have been dealing with this.  So far, all our friends have either agreed with us or are beig respectful of each other's choices.

Yeah, agree.  I think what I intended/hoped would be that he'd inquire with his wife and perhaps share my wife's POV if she came clean with how it went down.  I was sincere about it being unproductive to call my wife in the near-term.  Anyway, my hope is that we can all cool down and rekindle this at a later date.  As I said, I'm sure they have their side of the story too.

 

[Westerberg]

Thanks.  We let alot roll off of us, but this one seemed like it needed to be addressed.  Not solved, not blown up...just noted and remarked upon.   Thx for the thoughtful POV

Right on. Hope it gets sorted out, man. Hang in there. 

 

[Morton Muffley]

(1) Your situation stinks, I'm sorry to hear about it. It's one of the reasons I just bow out of outings. 

(2) What's done is done but I probably wouldn't text a 20 year friend that sort of message/content. I'd go face to face, see his reactions, hear his instinctive response. Also, I would not text anything I did not expect to be handed to the spouse of my recipient, particularly if it is description of her conduct that he didn't witness.

(3) The Old friends/newer friends via old friends was an almost impossible dynamic. These two couples are reinforcing each other - and this is probably their bell cow topic/rant every time they get together. Could also be a bit of a friend competition/displacement thing. It's stereotypical to say, but it's not real surprising this happened on the x chromosome side of your outing. 

All great points.  Thanks for the perspective.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Sorry to hear this, you should reconsider if these are truly friends if they talk to your wife that way. Maybe it was alcohol induced but still shows their true colors. We keep to ourselves but have weeded out many extreme Left types that try to force their views on people in the same manner. Better off without them, good people don’t let politics dominate their relationships. 

Classy response GoBirds.  Respect.

 

[T J]

Lovely sentiment and not at all what I am doing, but you be you and good luck with your life with that attitude.  

You may not know you’re saying it, but your actions speak louder than your words. Sorry if you don’t agree. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

You may not know you’re saying it, but your actions speak louder than your words. Sorry if you don’t agree. 

So, even though all parties agreed to the ground rules before dinner, when confronted by people disrespecting he and his wife's health concerns, MoMuff is at fault?

Under what circumstances should someone who follows the recommended public health guidance engage those with alternative opinions?

 

[T J]

You didn’t read what I wrote. I said they shouldn’t have done that. The losing the friend’s part was the overreact. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

You didn’t read what I wrote. I said they shouldn’t have done that. The losing the friend’s part was the overreact. 

You said mm and his wife were “inordinately butt hurt”. Given their concerns (health of their loved ones), what do you think constitutes an appropriate reaction?

 

[KarmaPolice]

You didn’t read what I wrote. I said they shouldn’t have done that. The losing the friend’s part was the overreact. 

You also lead off with "I have very little sympathy for you".  

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Based on his reply, I am not sure what to think. Seems like, given his short reply, that he wants to avoid any drama and just keep it all friendly and casual, making me think he is the sensible one in that relationship, but I'd have a hard time with a "friend" being that dismissive, for lack of a better term, about a situation that upset my wife that much. 

This is exactly how I read his response -- he's trying to respond in a way that dials down the drama.  Obviously I don't know the guy so that could easily be a mis-read, but I definitely didn't take it as dismissive or disrespectful.  I probably would have responded the same way if a) I was in his situation and b) I was forced to communicate by text.

 

[T J]

You also lead off with "I have very little sympathy for you".  

Ya, about being sad for losing a friend. Sounded to me like that was his choice. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Ya, about being sad for losing a friend. Sounded to me like that was his choice. 

I chose to have my terminally ill pet euthanized, but it made me sad nonetheless. Worthy of sympathy?

And he didn’t choose to lose his friend btw.

 

[T J]

I chose to have my terminally ill pet euthanized, but it made me sad nonetheless. Worthy of sympathy?

And he didn’t choose to lose his friend btw.

Never mind. We are not on the same page. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Never mind. We are not on the same page. 

I try to stay off the obnoxious, insulting, kick ‘em when they’re down page. 

 

[T J]

I try to stay off the obnoxious, insulting, kick ‘em when they’re down page. 

 Kick ‘em while they’re down? 

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

 Kick ‘em while they’re down? 

Hilarious.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I hear you man. As a libertarian leaning conservative that is horrified by the current Republican Party, I feel like I’m in no man’s land a lot. I have friends that are way down the rabbit hole and their lives seem to revolve around politics now. It comes up over and over even if I try to steer away from it. It’s exhausting and frustrating. And everyone seems to want to make it personal all the time. The lack of respect for each other in general is deeply disappointing and worries me way more than any individual policy or politician.

 

[Van Dyman]

I hear you man. As a libertarian leaning conservative that is horrified by the current Republican Party, I feel like I’m in no man’s land a lot. I have friends that are way down the rabbit hole and their lives seem to revolve around politics now. It comes up over and over even if I try to steer away from it. It’s exhausting and frustrating. And everyone seems to want to make it personal all the time. The lack of respect for each other in general is deeply disappointing and worries me way more than any individual policy or politician.

Agree very much with the bolded, and I think the increase in that is the big different nowadays (in general, not the OPC's specific situation). I think before more people thought what they thought and maybe found it curious or interesting when other people thought differently. Now, imo, more and more people seem to incorporate their political views as a larger part of their personal identity, to such a degree that someone else's different viewpoint is perceived as a personal attack. It sucks.

 

[The Commish]

Agree very much with the bolded, and I think the increase in that is the big different nowadays (in general, not the OPC's specific situation). I think before more people thought what they thought and maybe found it curious or interesting when other people thought differently. Now, imo, more and more people seem to incorporate their political views as a larger part of their personal identity, to such a degree that someone else's different viewpoint is perceived as a personal attack. It sucks.

I'll go one further here....they replace their morals with their political views.  I see this happening ALL THE TIME around me, no matter where I live.  I don't get it.  Couple that with this inability to be ok with being different and it gets toxic really quickly.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Agree very much with the bolded, and I think the increase in that is the big different nowadays (in general, not the OPC's specific situation). I think before more people thought what they thought and maybe found it curious or interesting when other people thought differently. Now, imo, more and more people seem to incorporate their political views as a larger part of their personal identity, to such a degree that someone else's different viewpoint is perceived as a personal attack. It sucks.

This to me is what feels so different. 

What's interesting is I don't feel any different with this. I've talked a lot about my Republican friends. Maybe it's because our friendship is strong, but our political differences just don't get that much in the way. I will say I have to work at it though. And I'm sure they do too. 

But we actually have real conversations that goofily almost seem like talking to someone from a different culture when you really want to learn. They'll ask me, "Joe I know you're a capitalist entrepreneur, isn't Biden REALLY just waiting to turn unto socialists?" That kind of thing. It's legit discussion and I think I do a pretty good job representing the Biden side. 

In turn, I can ask them the "How can you vote someone like Trump that acts like that?" And we can discuss that. 

Plus a ton more.

Now I don't think anyone's vote has changed. But I think they understand my "side" better and I understand their "side" better. 

It's bumpy sometimes but honestly I see it as a very positive part of our friendship to get outside my bubble politically. 

 

[BigJim®]

Agree very much with the bolded, and I think the increase in that is the big different nowadays (in general, not the OPC's specific situation). I think before more people thought what they thought and maybe found it curious or interesting when other people thought differently. Now, imo, more and more people seem to incorporate their political views as a larger part of their personal identity, to such a degree that someone else's different viewpoint is perceived as a personal attack. It sucks.

This is true, but I think context matters. I hadn't experienced a lot of my conservative friends raising abortion, 2nd amendment, Ukraine etc. in public discourse. I'm sure they had a stance, but these were topics separate from social action. It's really when a pandemic becomes politicized (which I still don't understand), that issues immediately relevant to their conduct (wanting kids in school, sending invites to social gatherings, wearing a mask, rolling eyes when they do or when others are, etc.) that it is nearly impossible to avoid politicizing ones acts, or as you refer to it, their identity.  

 

[djmich]

Entertainment media, "news" media, political media, social media.  The human manipulation of these platforms and the technology itself has outpaced human capacity to rationally manage it.  Its exponentially bringing #######s to the forefront and creating more #######s.

 

[Morton Muffley]

This to me is what feels so different. 

What's interesting is I don't feel any different with this. I've talked a lot about my Republican friends. Maybe it's because our friendship is strong, but our political differences just don't get that much in the way. I will say I have to work at it though. And I'm sure they do too. 

But we actually have real conversations that goofily almost seem like talking to someone from a different culture when you really want to learn. They'll ask me, "Joe I know you're a capitalist entrepreneur, isn't Biden REALLY just waiting to turn unto socialists?" That kind of thing. It's legit discussion and I think I do a pretty good job representing the Biden side. 

In turn, I can ask them the "How can you vote someone like Trump that acts like that?" And we can discuss that. 

Plus a ton more.

Now I don't think anyone's vote has changed. But I think they understand my "side" better and I understand their "side" better. 

It's bumpy sometimes but honestly I see it as a very positive part of our friendship to get outside my bubble politically. 

Thanks Joe.  I have many similar discussions with the friends I have on both sides of me.  Indeed, this is what I meant what I wrote in my original post about having "spirited, albeit fruitless" discussions.  No one's mind was being changed, BUT what was definitely occurring was that strawman arguments were being shown to be silly; stereo-typing was shown to be faulty.  IOW, we were each the human argument AGAINST the social media over-simplification.  No one was "evil," "communist," anti-religion," antifa-loving," "racist," etc.  But it is lonely in the silent middle.  I have some family members on either side who (think they) see things VERY clearly...for whom I am merely the exception that proves the rule.  As such, I work hard to explain to them that I am NOT the exception...that there's lots of people like me.  In Massachusetts my failure (in some circles)  to announce my gender (i.e. Morton/he/him) is seen as oppressive to some people.  My existence as a white, male business leader just another example of "the problem."  To others, my recognition that racial injustice and wealth inequality exists marks me as a traitor to my class and a a "limousine liberal."  I have a lot of empathy for both sides...see alot of weak straw man arguments from each...see how the main stream media prefers telling stories with anecdotes rather than data...see how liberalism has turned into illiberalism....see how the GOP has betrayed many of its core values...see how Trump is a lot of bark and very little bite...see why abortion is SO divisive.  

Anyway, am rambling again.  My point is that I am quite comfortable having these discussions, but what caused me to write my original post is that my wife is not.  She grew up in a family in which one simply didn't discuss disagreeable topics...where any disagreement was seen as divisive, no matter how civil, thoughtful and well-intentioned.  My friends know this about us both and and that is partly why I found her cornering so problematic, though the kitchen conversation within earshot of my wife and the things said in that convo where even more problematic.  Add in the high risk individuals (of which they are well aware) and the agreements made in advance and it was BUFFET of disrespect IMO.  

Anyway, thanks for chiming in again.  This has been a good discussion (for the most part) and I'm glad I shared my experience and appreciate the the thoughtful feedback I have received.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thanks Joe.  I have many similar discussions with the friends I have on both sides of me.  Indeed, this is what I meant what I wrote in my original post about having "spirited, albeit fruitless" discussions.  No one's mind was being changed, BUT what was definitely occurring was that strawman arguments were being shown to be silly; stereo-typing was shown to be faulty.  IOW, we were each the human argument AGAINST the social media over-simplification.  No one was "evil," "communist," anti-religion," antifa-loving," "racist," etc.  But it is lonely in the silent middle.  I have some family members on either side who (think they) see things VERY clearly...for whom I am merely the exception that proves the rule.  As such, I work hard to explain to them that I am NOT the exception...that there's lots of people like me.  In Massachusetts my failure (in some circles)  to announce my gender (i.e. Morton/he/him) is seen as oppressive to some people.  My existence as a white, male business leader just another example of "the problem."  To others, my recognition that racial injustice and wealth inequality exists marks me as a traitor to my class and a a "limousine liberal."  I have a lot of empathy for both sides...see alot of weak straw man arguments from each...see how the main stream media prefers telling stories with anecdotes rather than data...see how liberalism has turned into illiberalism....see how the GOP has betrayed many of its core values...see how Trump is a lot of bark and very little bite...see why abortion is SO divisive.  

Anyway, am rambling again.  My point is that I am quite comfortable having these discussions, but what caused me to write my original post is that my wife is not.  She grew up in a family in which one simply didn't discuss disagreeable topics...where any disagreement was seen as divisive, no matter how civil, thoughtful and well-intentioned.  My friends know this about us both and and that is partly why I found her cornering so problematic, though the kitchen conversation within earshot of my wife and the things said in that convo where even more problematic.  Add in the high risk individuals (of which they are well aware) and the agreements made in advance and it was BUFFET of disrespect IMO.  

Anyway, thanks for chiming in again.  This has been a good discussion (for the most part) and I'm glad I shared my experience and appreciate the the thoughtful feedback I have received.

Rock on. Sounds like we're in very similar situations in many regards with just different ends of the spectrum. It can feel lonely in the middle but it's been my experience there are way more folks there than we think. We're just not as loud as the ends of the spectrum. 

Keep doing what you're doing and rock on. 

 

[cockroach]

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/27/928209548/dude-i-m-done-when-politics-tears-families-and-friendships-apart

Relevant

 

[Morton Muffley]

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/27/928209548/dude-i-m-done-when-politics-tears-families-and-friendships-apart

Relevant

Good article and good listen.  Thanks for sharing.  I agree that it is healthy to have friends and family with different views,  Indeed, I cultivate that and have for decades.  But I'm curious and see a lot of grey in situations...and pride myself on seeing things from others' POV.  The more we retreat into our bubbles the easier it is to label and smear the other side.  Not sure how we get out of this without a leader (needn't be political) bringing us together.  If not that then I fear Orwell was right and we simply need an OTHER.

 

[Joe Bryant]

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/27/928209548/dude-i-m-done-when-politics-tears-families-and-friendships-apart

Relevant

Thanks for that article. I think it's accurate.

From the closing:

Whether the strategy ultimately works or not, Marinstein said, he wonders whether it may ultimately be doing as much harm as good.

"It just feels like the healthiest thing for me to do at the moment [is] to lower the temperature and to not continue these toxic conversations," he said. "But I suppose the risk is that I'm just retreating into my own information bubble with people who think just like me."

Indeed, experts said it's more conversation — not less — that's needed, if the nation is to heal its blistering divide. But it has to be healthy, productive conversation. And Israel, who runs the workshops on civil discourse, said the first step must be to take it off social media and talk in person instead.

"The only useful comment that you can make on somebody's social media post is 'Can we find a time to talk about this? I'm interested in hearing more,' " she said.

I strongly believe this to be true. This forum can be ok for commiserating. But I'd love it if people here would spend that time talking in real life to others. I think that would by far be much better for them and our country. 

 

[DropKick]

TLDR: losing long-time friends over politics and bad manners (more the latter actually)

My wife and I are left leaning, Trump despising, residents of a wealthy Boston suburb and who mostly keep our opinions to ourselves.  I say "mostly" because my close friends on either side of the political spectrum (and I have several on each side) know how I feel and we have spirited albeit fruitless debates about our different beliefs.  Lately I have found myself occupying a very lonely no-mans' land between two very adamant and opinionated sides.  I write this NOT to stake out some moral high ground in the middle, but rather to emphasize the loneliness of being a left-leaning moderate in the current moment.   Anyway, that's not the point, but is the necessary background.

The point is that we had drinks & dinner tonight with two couples: one with whom we've been friends for 20 years, the other we have only recently gotten to know through these long-time friends. We knew that both of the other couples were likely Trump supporters, but they are lovely people who we simply disagree with on politics and with whom we have, for good reason, chosen to avoid the topic entirely.  They asked us our comfort with getting together tonight indoors and we informed them that with a live-in mother-in-law of 80 (who has multiple co-morbidtities) and a 51 year old brother in the midst of stage 4 prostate cancer that we are closely supporting, we didn't feel comfortable with indoor dining.  We told them that they should not change plans for us, but that given the aforementioned situation we were taking extra pre-cautions.  They said it was no problem and that they'd be happy to entertain us in the 60 degree outdoors.

We arrived at their home and walked to the back yard to find the 2 couples set up in the kitchen.  They said they'd be right out and we should get comfortable on the deck.  We did.  Moments later they joined us on the deck with a small bit of exasperation.  The wife we have known for 20 years went in for a usual hug and before my wife could react her husband sincerely chastised her with "hey, no touching...we talked about this."  The other two couples kept their distance from us but not from one another.  I appreciated it all and thought nothing of it beyond "different strokes for different folks as long as they respect our appraoch."

A few hours later, following several beers and some delicious pizza, my wife gave me the "we should go" sign.  It was earlier than I expected, but the temp was below 60 degrees now and a wind was kicking up - so I understood, or so I thought.  We packed up, elbow bumped goodbye and left.  It was a fun night.

UNTIL...I got in the car and my wife burst into tears.  While I had been outside, she had gotten cornered in the kitchen on her way to the bathroom. Covid was a hoax, didn't she know.  The hosting wife is a dental hygenist and "has had no problems.  I don't even wear a shield sometimes."  Other woman told my wife that the numbers are exaggerated and that "it's all political."   My wife told them that she/we felt differently and that she understood they had a different POV.  My wife was then told that "your side is the problem" at which point my wife retorted "the problem is real and it's less Covid than the lack of leadership addressing it.  In any case, I think we are done here."  My wife then returned from the bathroom and took her seat on the deck only to overhear the two women discussing how "she doesn't get it" and that she "needs to wake up" and how she's "over-reacting" and how "this social distancing is nonsense" and how they are "anti-mask."  All of this came pouring out through tears as we drove off.  

A few minutes ago I texted my male friend of 20 years to let him know what had transpired.  That I had a wonderful time until I learned that my wife was cornered and disrespected.  Not because they didn't share our political views (they never have and I don't care), but because of their inhospitality - their inability to respect OUR simple wishes, ones that they had agreed to in advance - and to not talk about us behind our backs when they couldn't convince my wife of the errors of our ways.  I thanked him for the evening and also told him that the current political situation was stressing everyone out and that our foreign adversaries were taking advantage of the current political situation and that I was saddened and disappointed to learn how the evening had progressed....that our friendship might be the latest casualty in this political battle.  I told him all this and I told him that his wife should not contact mine as I didn't think that would be well-received.  Best to let things cool down, I wrote.  I apologized for sending him a lengthy text with a request to "do nothing."   I offered him the opportunity for the two of us to connect without our wives if he had any thoughts, questions or other perspectives about the evening.  

Am writing all the above because I am 20% pissed and 80% really gd sad.  I don't even know why I'm sharing the above.  I don't know what I want...what I'm seeking from any of you.  I think I just wanted to share.  Am trying to process what might well be the end of a 20 year friendship.  This year sux.      

Sorry to play the tough love card, but who needs "friends" like that?  Consider yourself fortunate to be done with them.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Sorry to play the tough love card, but who needs "friends" like that?  Consider yourself fortunate to be done with them.

Maybe. 

But I'd counter it depends completely on the friends. I can think of tons of friendships I have where something of that magnitude would absolutely have me trying to get back on track. 

I do see people today more quick to give up on friendships. Not sure what that means. 

 

[DropKick]

Maybe. 

But I'd counter it depends completely on the friends. I can think of tons of friendships I have where something of that magnitude would absolutely have me trying to get back on track. 

I do see people today more quick to give up on friendships. Not sure what that means. 

I think my reaction is more old school than new...  disrespect my wife?  Doesn't go over well.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think my reaction is more old school than new...  disrespect my wife?  Doesn't go over well.

Of course it doesn't go over well. That's why you talk about it. If it's worth saving. That's the real question. 

 

[DropKick]

Of course it doesn't go over well. That's why you talk about it. If it's worth saving. That's the real question. 

Believe it not, Joe, I am still close with the friends I had when I was 10-12 years old.  These are friendships that have lasted 50 years.  In fact, I went fishing with one of them a couple weeks back.  This is a neat spot, we frequented as children, where a fresh water pond had a spill-way leading to brackish/salt water at the bottom.  As luck would have it, striped bass had cornered a school of bait fish and we went from large-mouth bass fishing to striper fishing in a matter of moments.  As I climbed the steep bank as we left, I remember thinking "what would the 12 year old versions of ourselves think about these two old guys limping up the bank?"

Like they said in Stand By Me - I Never Had Any Friends Later On Like the Ones I Had When I Was Twelve.

Maybe those guys would get a pass. 

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

I feel grateful that the friends I have and respected turned out to be exactly who I thought they were.

 

[DropKick]

I feel grateful that the friends I have and respected turned out to be exactly who I thought they were.

This is the point of my reaction.   No matter how good a friend I thought someone was, there are actions that would convince me that the friendship/respect was not mutual.  And that realization makes it easier to walk away.

 

[AAABatteries]

I feel grateful that the friends I have and respected turned out to be exactly who I thought they were.

Here's my 2 cents on it.  If you've been friends with somebody for 20 years like in the OP then generally speaking they are who you thought they were or you wouldn't have been friends with them for 20 years.  Ignoring the being disrespectful of his wife part for a moment (and I realize this is extremely hard but I'm trying to make a broader point).  If somebody you've been close with has a political belief or supports someone like Biden or Trump (who you disagree with) then my guess is the person will be equally surprised by you supporting the other guy.  I'd say 20 years is more important than that.  But again - being disrespectful to his wife is across the line and should be remedied.

 

[GROOT]

This isn't about politics. This is about your neighbor not respecting your wife's position/requests on COVID . She crossed the line. She was being an #######. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

This isn't about politics. This is about your neighbor not respecting your wife's position/requests on COVID . She crossed the line. She was being an #######. 

We don’t really KNOW this.  We are hearing his replay of his wife’s description of what happened.  (Note:  I’m not accusing anyone of anything, just talking about human psychology here)

When I think about some of the perspectives my wife has.....on situations that I’ve observed firsthand.......let’s just say that none of us are impartial arbiters of life situations.

Either way, this was a sad story to read.  It has stuck with me ever since the OP posted it.  We all need to get back to more civil times.

 

[Morton Muffley]

We don’t really KNOW this.  We are hearing his replay of his wife’s description of what happened.  (Note:  I’m not accusing anyone of anything, just talking about human psychology here)

When I think about some of the perspectives my wife has.....on situations that I’ve observed firsthand.......let’s just say that none of us are impartial arbiters of life situations.

Either way, this was a sad story to read.  It has stuck with me ever since the OP posted it.  We all need to get back to more civil times.

The bolded is SO true and undoubtedly played a part in the exchange.  We ALL bring baggage to our interactions.  In some cases, it's shared experiences that both sides are aware of that will color future interactions.  More often the baggage is either entirely internal (current mood set by any number of things the other party couldn't possibly be aware of) or if it is shared it is interpreted differently by each (my "direct" is your "rude"; your "joking" is my "poor taste" etc.) or worse scorekeeping in which we perfectly recall every minor slight done to us while we explain away every minor offense we committed ("she didn't understand" "that's not what I intended" "they need to lighten up if they think that I would ever xyz").  We are ALL the heroes of our own stories and so I try to give wide latitude to everyone in ALL my personal interactions.  This latitude is aided by me having a fairly strong analytical mind, but a pretty weak memory.  In contrast, my wife can quote a years-old conversation verbatim.  And so that is why I have chosen not just to give the friendship some time to cool down, but also give my wife a bit of space as well.  That is, I have NOT requested from my wife a "transcript" of proceedings so that I might suggest where misunderstanding and good intentions poorly executed might have played a part.  That said, I know she went into the evening with some pre-conceived ideas, many of which were sadly realized.  Nevertheless, I know all too well that there are MANY sides to every story. And who knows how my wife delivered her "lack of leadership" line or how it was interpreted.  Am sure there are some who might think/write: there is only ONE way to interpret her "lack of leadership" comment but to that I would simply respond that their view of the world is more black & white than mine.