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American Cities vs European cities (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gianmarco
- Start date
glvsav37
Footballguy
I have to give the article a solid read, but imo a lot of the local respect for their cities comes from many of them being very old and historical and for some have been lost and rebuilt during war periods. Thankfully we've never really experienced that here, but from the little bit of European traveling i've done, the residents always seemed to have a high level of respect for their cities.
I also think that we have much different personal lives and tempos vs many europeans. We are always on the go, hustling, and competitive whereas they have a much higher respect for personal time off and slowing down. So when their cities talk about going "bike only" US citizens are like "nobody's got time for that!"
I also think that we have much different personal lives and tempos vs many europeans. We are always on the go, hustling, and competitive whereas they have a much higher respect for personal time off and slowing down. So when their cities talk about going "bike only" US citizens are like "nobody's got time for that!"
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Ok, so a few caveats:
- I love Europe
- have spent a ton of time there both for work and personal travel
- am seriously contemplating a move there when kids are out of high school (in 4.5 years)
Reactions to the article:
- interesting read, especially the perspective on how we got to this place
- the US can and should learn from Europe’s success keeping cities appealing
- the article under emphasizes how expensive most large European cities are to live in, and how concentrated they are with elites
- check out a 1st ring suburb in a major Euro city. Anybody here done that lately? I have. It’s often not a very pretty picture. Some scary areas out there beyond the wealthy, urban, touristy enclaves.
Anyway, really good read. Lots to appreciate in there.
rockaction
Footballguy
lol
banning cars
ool
banning cars
ool
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
I skimmed the article so maybe I missed something - I get the premise and understand they are highlighting some real concerns but I would want to see more numbers around population density, number of people truly in a downtown area, etc. Not to mention I think it’s probably the case that in general the mindset of the average European is different in regards to living in a city versus the average American. There’s a large portion of us who are taught that city’s suck - not for the reasons listed in the article - but you have no land, no room to spread out, etc. When I see Houston top of their list I immediately think we aren’t totally comparing apples to oranges. Houston is so damn spread out that I don’t see how it is comparable to most of those cities (maybe the Australian ones- I know very little about them).
glvsav37
Footballguy
I think places like NYC are doomed. Too big already and not enough room to make impactful change w/o knocking down a ton of buildings for more open space.
However, I am seeing some redevelopment here out on Long Island that is taking the 'walking/biking" idea into more consideration. We are creating more mixed use communities with larger living units (vs studios) for families with main street type retail adjacent to it. While its great for those residents, those of us outside the pockets still need our cars.
However, I am seeing some redevelopment here out on Long Island that is taking the 'walking/biking" idea into more consideration. We are creating more mixed use communities with larger living units (vs studios) for families with main street type retail adjacent to it. While its great for those residents, those of us outside the pockets still need our cars.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Downfall of NYC has been discussed my entire lifetime - from fiscal crisis, to crack epidemic, to 9/11 and now pandemic/crime. Every time it has turned out pretty good.
I personally think NYC is best able to adjust to a less car focused lifestyle the article discusses. The article is mostly critical of “western” cities which are just sprawl. It doesn’t mention the older northeastern cities like NYC, Boston or Philly that have a much more dense feel to them and many more transportation options like European cities.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I believe there are 3 primary reasons why the US developed differently than Europe:
- People don't sell land for development in Europe and thus the cities couldn't spread out. My dad told me a story about how his German relative came to visit one time and was shocked that my dad and his brother didn't live on the farm with their father and weren't planning to take on the land after my grandfather passed. In Germany, once your family has land you don't let it go. I'd imagine having a land populated for literally thousands of years means that people value property very differently than the US. Here there is always some property for sale somewhere at a reasonable price. I think given the choice between a small apartment or a house with a yard, the vast majority would choose the house, but most Europeans just don't have that opportunity.
- Immigration in the US is vastly different than Europe. We have a constant influx of lower class citizens coming into our country daily. Western cities especially have the influx of legal and illegal immigration influencing much of the city dynamics that Europe simply doesn't have to deal with. Even in countries with larger immigration numbers (Germany & France) it is a much more controlled and deliberate process. Here things just kind of happen and we have to react as opposed to being able to be proactive. Honestly I think the sheer volume doesn't lend itself to a proactive approach and just controlling the numbers is all the US government is trying to do. Once they're here, there is little plan or effort in place to get them affordable housing and integrate them into the economy. Thus they end up in cities in lower income areas, making the dynamics of the cities different than in Europe.
- The US is more prosperous on a per capita basis. A much higher % of our citizens can afford a suburban house with a yard and 2 cars to drive wherever, whenever we want. Again, I think if given the option the vast majority of humans would choose to have more space and greater mobility. Americans are simply able to do this at higher rates than Europeans due to our superior economics over the past 30+ years.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
This is also a factor, the admiration of the population that has been there for thousands of years.
The romanticism of Vienna, Prague, Budapest, Florence, Warsaw, Berlin, etc. is a lot different than even cities like Chicago or Boston (and even more so in newbies like Phoenix and Denver).
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glvsav37
Footballguy
Although I did date an Au Pair (too many) years ago who came from Salzburg Austria, one of the most famous cities in Austria, and she hated it. I guess it was an early adult thing where anywhere iso better than where you've grown up mentality. But I was like "you used to party in castles, Amadeus' birthplace, Sound of Music???? And you're happier in no-nothing city in the middle of suburbia Long Island??" lol
Brony
Footballguy
When a city is built without a signficant investment in public transportation, it's really difficult to unring that bell and add it later. As the article covers, most American cities were developed around the idea that people have cars. It's just a tough slog to try to get cities to invest in walk/bike infrastructure when the vast majority of people are so used to driving that there isn't a big demand/push to change that and when the city was designed around a short drive from Point A to Point B, not a long walk.
E Street Brat
Footballguy
American's don't want to live in 700 sq/ft apts
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Dez89
Footballguy
E Street Brat
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I'm not sure this guy has ever been in an American suburb. Adapting suburbia to this vision is an absolute impossibility.
The nearest grocery store to me is a 50 minute walk - one way. You can build a pedestrian bridge to it directly from my house and I still would drive.
As to a practical solution, I think we could make it easier to leave one home and move into another. Our transient/job hopping workforce finds workers making long commutes when they find a job not near their home. Myself, I'd love to move closer to my work but I'm not going to set money on fire by buying/selling houses. I'd just rather drive.
The nearest grocery store to me is a 50 minute walk - one way. You can build a pedestrian bridge to it directly from my house and I still would drive.
As to a practical solution, I think we could make it easier to leave one home and move into another. Our transient/job hopping workforce finds workers making long commutes when they find a job not near their home. Myself, I'd love to move closer to my work but I'm not going to set money on fire by buying/selling houses. I'd just rather drive.
rockaction
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
I don't think its as gloomy as the article suggests. There is a lot of urban revitalization happening. Its just a slow process. But if you look at Austin or Detroit (I use those because they are the ones I am most familiar with), despite significant hurdles, density is increasing. Urban living is increasing. Hopefully it will continue.
Jayrod
Footballguy
It's a sub-culture for sure, but not that prominent yet. Honestly, most of those people are already in cities.
This whole issue is about convincing people to go from sprawling suburbia to inner city living and how to make that both feasible and attractive in existing cities.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Still feels like we subsidies cars and auto-centric development far too much for it to really catch up. We are in a tough place as energy prices rise globally.
whoknew
Footballguy
Totally. I didn't mean to make it seem like all is good and we are good to go. Just that maybe its not quite as terrible as the article suggests.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Drunken knight
Footballguy
Yes! I am drawn to the northern lakes in italy (or italian/austrian boarder). Originally wanted to open a small Gasthaus/restaurant in the alps. Now that i am a little older... a rum bar in the tropics with small plates sounds pretty good
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Or we could tear down something else. Check out how empty a lot of retail space is these days.
Point being, the world isn’t static.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Point being, in suburbia, there's residential and then there's commercial. You'd need to change everything (well, a whole bunch) to put many of the modern conveniences within walking/biking distance. And since I'm in Minnesota, I'm not walking/biking anywhere for about half the year.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I think we could but is that cost effective? Seems like it may be easier, cheaper and better to start some of these from scratch or at least without having to retrofit so much.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Same in Houston. Also, the nearest thing to tear down is a grocery store. Two of them, actually- a Kroger and an Aldi. It would take ages to get there and back. The ice cream just isn't going to survive.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
What's the theory for why it is vastly more expensive to build this stuff in America than in Europe or Asia?
El Floppo
Footballguy
This.
and NYC (and other more dense US urban centers) has been looking at limiting car traffic within the city for a while. In the last 10 years, bike lanes and bike-share options have arrived in a big way and are hugely popular. Sections of streets have also been permanently shut off or limited to traffic (theres a long stretch of Broadway like this) for pedestrians or bus lanes.
But I think part of the problem is ideological, geographical and infra-structure related. The US by nature is huge and spread out, and ideologically independent, rather than collective. This lends itself to independent means of travel- cars- rather than buses, trains or other means of mass transit.
encaitar
Footballguy
Europeans are paying the same, or more, for a 700 square foot apartment as most Americans pay for their 3500 square foot house on 3/4 an acre. If they had the option to choose the suburban house with a large lot for the same money, I doubt many would turn it down. Land in Europe is stupid expensive though.
moleculo
Footballguy
Could they ever close down the major roads (i.e. Broadway) for foot traffic only? I know they did that in Denver (16th street), and that's pretty common in a lot of the European cities I've spent time in (ok, Germany mostly).
El Floppo
Footballguy
yes. they're doing it already in smaller stretches.
and in the summer, they do something called "city streets" or "summer streets" where they close down the various contiguous N/S avenues that connect the Brooklyn Bridge at the South tip of Manhattan to Central Park in the middle- miles away- and make it for pedestrians/biking only (while keeping cross-streets open to cars).
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I've thought about this a number of times, and my vote is for "no." I still don't understand how they managed to get the right-of-way for that many miles of interstate considering all the state and local politics involved. Add in today's environmental issues and our inability to govern at the federal level, and I don't think this project could be done today.
Kind of sucks to know that our government is actually less capable of doing things than the Eisenhower administration.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Sure, but when I visit major cities, I can't help but notice that most grocery stores are really either just little bodegas or something not too dissimilar to a typical convenience store. I'm sure people who live there figure out a way to get stuff, but it's so much easier when you live in a town with at least one proper supermarket. My local Hy-Vee in my dinky little town carries multiple varieties of kimchee, a solid selection of curries, a bunch of imported pastas, specialty cured meats, sushi, etc. all under one roof. This is hugely convenient and a big improvement in my quality of life relative to having to make multiple trips to finish off my shopping list. It's hard to replicate that in a high-density setting.
(Obviously there are lots of other offsetting advantages to density.)
El Floppo
Footballguy
not sure what you mean tbh.
here in NYC, within 5 blocks of my apartment for groceries- bodegas, supermarkets, gourmet groceries, Whole Foods, Target, Trader Joes. we don't have any Walmarts nearby (we did just lose a KMart), although there are a few spread throughout the outer boroughs and maybe one uptown in Harlem. I have a gourmet grocery literally IN my building (street level, separate entrance) that has just about anything I could need. I also have a little Japan-town section a few blocks further away as well as other specialty areas (Ukranian, Polish, Jewish, Indian/Bangladeshi, Caribbean, etc).
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Do you live in/near the East Village?
In fairness, when I moved to NY in the early 2000s there weren’t a ton of grocery stores. We lived near Fairway on the UWS and had friends who would say “you are so lucky to have a grocery store nearby.” Being from the Midwest….that seemed really odd at the time.
My guess is that Ivan and others are thinking not of NY, or other decently dense east coast cities like DC or Boston, but rather less dense cities like say Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, etc. And not the whole city — the urban core.
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
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Insoxicated
They're prevalent in a few major cities, sure.
That said, I'd wager MAYBE .01% of the US population lives in them, and at least half of those folks begrudgingly.
Not sure I'd call them very popular.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I assume the actual amount of people doing the micro living thing is very niche compared to the amount of media and social media around it...but would be interested in the numbers.
There has heen a rebirth of city living in the last 20 years. The American ideal of the white picket fence in the suburbs that persisted post WW2 had a large segment rediscover the city for all the cultural elements and proximity to work. Since then, prices in places like NYC and SF have become astronomical ($1k/sf as a starting point), which makes tiny living a necessity for most people wanting to live in the city. As a residential architect with a focus on apartment renovations, I can tell you from the smallest to the biggest- every single client I've had wishes they had more space.
El Floppo
Footballguy
there's still zoning that makes certain areas zoned for things other than residential- commercial or industrial- where there's little need for the support structure you need for residential areas.
With the urban renewal I mentioned, former industrial and commercial zones have long been transitioning to allow for more residential...bringing things like grocery stores with them. The Wall Street area used to be a ghost town after 7 and on the weekends, but has shifted into far more residences and residential support.
But since Covid, with so many work from home situations shrinking or eliminating offices and office space- along with all of infrastructure supporting that sector...NYC at least will need to rethink zoning even more.
Eta...yes, I straddle the EVil LES
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I’ve been thinking about this a lot the last few years. The post-WWII suburban experiment is a money losing Ponzi scheme for municipalities
Pushing sprawl further away from cities, building 100% R1 residential zoning, with enormous land dedicated solely to retail parking lots, have created stroads throughout Canada and the USA. From a property tax perspective it’s not sustainable. It fails the most basic planning tenet of “highest best use.”
I get that it’s engraved into our culture. But there is another way.
for your consideration (these are each about 5-10 minutes long):
Strong Towns
The Truth About American Cities - Strong Towns
How Suburban Development Makes American Cities Poorer
Why American Cities Are Broke - The Growth Ponzi Scheme
How Bankrupt Cities Stay Alive
The Ugly, Dangerous & Inefficient Stroads found throughout the U.S. & Canada
The bolded is where my knowledge journey began. Highly recommend starting there
Climate Town: The suburbs Are Bleeding America Dry
related reading: How Suburban Sprawl Is A Ponzi Scheme
CNBC (Feb 2022): How Suburban Sprawl Weighs on the U.S. Economy
Pushing sprawl further away from cities, building 100% R1 residential zoning, with enormous land dedicated solely to retail parking lots, have created stroads throughout Canada and the USA. From a property tax perspective it’s not sustainable. It fails the most basic planning tenet of “highest best use.”
I get that it’s engraved into our culture. But there is another way.
for your consideration (these are each about 5-10 minutes long):
Strong Towns
The Truth About American Cities - Strong Towns
How Suburban Development Makes American Cities Poorer
Why American Cities Are Broke - The Growth Ponzi Scheme
How Bankrupt Cities Stay Alive
The Ugly, Dangerous & Inefficient Stroads found throughout the U.S. & Canada
The bolded is where my knowledge journey began. Highly recommend starting there
Climate Town: The suburbs Are Bleeding America Dry
related reading: How Suburban Sprawl Is A Ponzi Scheme
CNBC (Feb 2022): How Suburban Sprawl Weighs on the U.S. Economy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Miami is an epicenter for urban renewal, but so far the rich from others parts of the USA, South America and Europe are benefitting the most. For the wealthy from South America, it's a safer place to keep their money, even if there's a correction in prices. There are currently 22 buildings of 500+ feet under construction in the downtown area. Proposed buildings are getting enough reservation deposits to start building within a few months. It's becoming Manhattan without the mass transit option. Downtown Miami area is no longer a ghost town, but you need to make well north of $200k to afford anything, so that excludes most Miamians. To attend to the children of these rich people, a nursery to 12th grade school that charges 63k tuition is building a big campus just north of downtown.
Most building plans have retail, I see people on a popular web-site requesting that a Trader Joe's or Whole Foods go into these new buildings. That will encourage people to walk to a nearby grocery store, or restaurant, instead of driving. The rules for parking spaces in new buildings depend on whether the building is close to a transit hub, even though transit ridership is very low. We're still tied to our cars, or perhaps ubers. In Europe, the price of gas is double what we pay here, another factor in our love of cars. In new cities like Miami, I don't see town squares or as many big city parks like exist in Europe and older cities in the USA. Nor museums. But there are plenty of restaurants, people have to eat. Rapid gentrification is occurring in the poorer neighborhoods just outside downtown. Wynwood is Miami's Soho. A NYer, Tony Goldman, was the visionary for that area.
The 22 Tallest Towers Under Construction In Miami In 2022
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Insoxicated
The problem with all this is we don't HAVE the land constraints that exist in markets you guys are comparing to.BobbyLayne said:
A push against suburban life, and roads is flawed because you're trying to force a lifestyle that doesn't have to be forced.
Many people (myself included) want some land. I LOVE visiting cities. You would have to pay me a ####load more than I'm worth to live packed in with others. That sounds like hell, to me. I enjoy firing up a smoker while playing horseshoes in my backyard with friends and family. I like having a small garden. I like not having to listen to footsteps above me, or worrying about turning my music up. I like having a garage to work on my car. etc.
Hell, My next home will likely have more land so I can set up a shooting range... put in a swimming pool.. etc.
We have the ability for people to make a choice:
People who wish to live in cities, and there are many, can do so.
People who prefer some land and the privacy and flexibility that comes with it, can do so.
Not everything in life is about squeezing the maximum amount of efficiency out of everything, IMO.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Except that was not the case with the post WW2 suburban experiment. It was not driven by market forces. It was completely based on zoning laws. Developers had no other choice for decades except to build R-1. It was illegal to build mixed use development. Or condos, or communal apartments - not alongside R-1. Single family only.
The argument is for loosening R-1 restrictions is so mixed use is available as an alternative. There’s a groundswell of demand for walkable, mixed use communities. In just the last few years Minneapolis, Colorado, California and Oregon (& probably it others I am not aware of) have broken the R-1 stranglehold.
The argument is NOT that we’re running out of land. Is that an assumption anyone else in this thread is making?
It’s more nuanced than a binary between 3500 square foot homes in suburbia / rural acreage VS densely packed inner cities with small, cramped apartments.
