American Cities vs European cities (1 Viewer)

[Eephus]

I love high density urban living and wouldn't trade it for a bunch of space that I would have to fill up with stuff.  If anyone wants to be my neighbor, there's a 981 sq ft apartment around the corner from me that's listed at $4,325/mo.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I love high density urban living and wouldn't trade it for a bunch of space that I would have to fill up with stuff.  If anyone wants to be my neighbor, there's a 981 sq ft apartment around the corner from me that's listed at $4,325/mo.

$52.91 /sq ft



My first (rent stabilized) apartment in NYC (Brooklyn) was around $24. Most I’ve ever paid - always rent stabilized, about 1/3rd (1M) of all NYC rentals - was $2250 for 700 sq ft (~ &39.) Right now I’m in southern Brooklyn…less density than my first 7 apartments in Manhattan/north Brooklyn…paying $21. Market for high end units in the city is around $80-90 / sq ft.

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Anyway, enough classicism. If this is discussion is going to devolve into cities VS country living, should probably just move it to the PSF. Then people can knock passing volleys past each other without hearing anything the other syde has to offer.

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My interest in looking at adopting European models for zoning and city planning is more along the lines of sustainability and improving the tax return on development.

The growth model of suburbia is a Ponzi scheme. It is not sustainable long term, it’s bad for the environment, and it puts a devastating burden on municipalities.

 

[Jayrod]

It’s more nuanced than a binary between 3500 square foot homes in suburbia / rural acreage VS densely packed inner cities with small, cramped apartments.

But that's the crux of the issue, IMO.  More people than not actually WANT the 3500 sq/ft home with acreage vs even a nice apartment in the city.  Add to it that the house is more affordable than the apartment and the gap simply expands.

The difference between Europe and America is that we in America have been able to achieve the suburban dream on a much larger scale than Europe because the land was available at a reasonable price and we had the economy to make it happen.  As a result, cities suffered and cars became an integral part of our society in order to get to and from work most efficiently for the individual.

Sure some people like an apartment instead of a house, but the numbers are much higher for the reverse.  Our country has been built out of the desires of the individual.  What we have in place is the result of that and the only way for that to change is to change what people want.  I know a lot more people that would rather live out in the middle of nowhere than an apartment.  If they could still get to a store in a reasonable time and make enough money to buy what they wanted they would live 100 miles from the nearest city.  They only thing drawing them even close to an urban area is jobs and stores.  That's what the Midwest in the US is like and I just don't know how you change it.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Everyone actually WANTS the 3500 sq/ft home with acreage vs even a nice apartment in the city.

:laughing emoji like button:

 

[Alex P Keaton]

But that's the crux of the issue, IMO.  More people than not actually WANT the 3500 sq/ft home with acreage vs even a nice apartment in the city.  Add to it that the house is more affordable than the apartment and the gap simply expands.

The difference between Europe and America is that we in America have been able to achieve the suburban dream on a much larger scale than Europe because the land was available at a reasonable price and we had the economy to make it happen.  As a result, cities suffered and cars became an integral part of our society in order to get to and from work most efficiently for the individual.

Sure some people like an apartment instead of a house, but the numbers are much higher for the reverse.  Our country has been built out of the desires of the individual.  What we have in place is the result of that and the only way for that to change is to change what people want.  I know a lot more people that would rather live out in the middle of nowhere than an apartment.  If they could still get to a store in a reasonable time and make enough money to buy what they wanted they would live 100 miles from the nearest city.  They only thing drawing them even close to an urban area is jobs and stores.  That's what the Midwest in the US is like and I just don't know how you change it.

Would love to sell my house in the burbs and move back to NY or SF.   And I live in an old suburb, so it feels less suburban.   Zero interest in a sprawling suburb with cookie cutter houses and endless traffic lights.

 

[El Floppo]

But that's the crux of the issue, IMO.  More people than not actually WANT the 3500 sq/ft home with acreage vs even a nice apartment in the city.  Add to it that the house is more affordable than the apartment and the gap simply expands.

The difference between Europe and America is that we in America have been able to achieve the suburban dream on a much larger scale than Europe because the land was available at a reasonable price and we had the economy to make it happen.  As a result, cities suffered and cars became an integral part of our society in order to get to and from work most efficiently for the individual.

Sure some people like an apartment instead of a house, but the numbers are much higher for the reverse.  Our country has been built out of the desires of the individual.  What we have in place is the result of that and the only way for that to change is to change what people want.  I know a lot more people that would rather live out in the middle of nowhere than an apartment.  If they could still get to a store in a reasonable time and make enough money to buy what they wanted they would live 100 miles from the nearest city.  They only thing drawing them even close to an urban area is jobs and stores.  That's what the Midwest in the US is like and I just don't know how you change it.

dunno about even the post-edited version of more people than not- that seems a leap on your part- especially considering the surge back to the cities. 

regardless- BL just covered this- it's not a binary between urban density and surburban openness. suburban communities could/should be more walkable with more varied zoning to allow for it. 

 

[Eephus]

suburban communities could/should be more walkable with more varied zoning to allow for it. 

@Koya had a thread about this a few years back.

I've been to a couple of suburban "town centers" but judging from the parking lots surrounding them, everybody drove to get there.  The slow death of retail is a big problem though because there has to be something else to do while you're not eating.

 

[El Floppo]

@Koya had a thread about this a few years back.

I've been to a couple of suburban "town centers" but judging from the parking lots surrounding them, everybody drove to get there.  The slow death of retail is a big problem though because there has to be something else to do while you're not eating.

I keep forgetting Koya's name... even though I remember the thread and him.

the death of retail plus the covid shift in thinking of commercial/office is going to change things pretty drastically. I'm still not sure what NYC's going to look like in the coming years if the offices and office workers don't come back- a lot of tangential industries and people rely on them.

 

[Manster]

I love high density urban living and wouldn't trade it for a bunch of space that I would have to fill up with stuff.  If anyone wants to be my neighbor, there's a 981 sq ft apartment around the corner from me that's listed at $4,325/mo.

Wow, I don't think I know anyone who would say this.  Are you being serious?   Is that price real?

Gimme wide open spaces, and room to roam, not a concrete jungle.

 

[Eephus]

I keep forgetting Koya's name... even though I remember the thread and him.

the death of retail plus the covid shift in thinking of commercial/office is going to change things pretty drastically. I'm still not sure what NYC's going to look like in the coming years if the offices and office workers don't come back- a lot of tangential industries and people rely on them.

The shrinkage of the tax base is going to be brutal if the office space remains vacant.

 

[SoBeDad]

The shrinkage of the tax base is going to be brutal if the office space remains vacant.

Our tax base in Miami is exploding due to tons of new residential and a good amount of new office and warehouse buildings. A lot of it is relocation of residents and companies from NY, NJ, CT, MA, and Europe to Miami and surrounding areas, and the rest of the sunshine state. Low taxes and high temperatures, and a less draconian reaction to the pandemic.

 

[El Floppo]

Wow, I don't think I know anyone who would say this.  Are you being serious?   Is that price real?

Gimme wide open spaces, and room to roam, not a concrete jungle.

are you being serious? no way! give me everything right outside my door, not some sprawling wasteland.

I kid. 

I like everything... but do love city-living. wouldn't trade it. and as another city liver, yes- those prices are real (and worse). 

 

[[icon]]

The shrinkage of the tax base is going to be brutal if the office space remains vacant.

Here in memphis many old warehouses and manufacturing facilities downtown were converted into loft-style apartments. Is there much reason why that couldn't happen in NYC? 

It would also have the added benefit of  significantly increasing the housing inventory and dropping cost of living substantially. 

Feels like a win win. 

I suspect many companies will downsize but not shut down office facilities... moving to a more modular system where employees can book workstations / meeting rooms as needed, but otherwise work remotely.

If we're truly doing this for sustainability / reducing carbon footprint, the death of the mandatory office daily commute is a huge win in urban centers. 

 

[El Floppo]

Here in memphis many old warehouses and manufacturing facilities downtown were converted into loft-style apartments. Is there much reason why that couldn't happen in NYC? 

It would also have the added benefit of  significantly increasing the housing inventory and dropping cost of living substantially. 

Feels like a win win. 

I suspect many companies will downsize but not shut down office facilities... moving to a more modular system where employees can book workstations / meeting rooms as needed, but otherwise work remotely.

If we're truly doing this for sustainability / reducing carbon footprint, the death of the mandatory office daily commute is a huge win in urban centers. 

this happened in NYC the 70s and 80s fwiw.

 

[[icon]]

Anyway, enough classicism. If this is discussion is going to devolve into cities VS country living, should probably just move it to the PSF. Then people can knock passing volleys past each other without hearing anything the other syde has to offer.

This has nothing to do with politics. This is a perfectly acceptable location for this thread.

Odd that you accuse dissent as "not hearing what the other side has to offer".... I'm not proposing everyone move to suburban areas. I'm saying everyone should be able to live where they want. I'm hearing others here (yourself included) push against suburban living in favor of city living. If anyone's not hearing what the other side has to offer, I don't think it's me. If I'm misreading what you're saying then please accept my apologies. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

All of you just need to chill and watch a few episodes of Green Acres. That show foreshadowed this entire topic.

 

[Eephus]

All of you just need to chill and watch a few episodes of Green Acres. That show foreshadowed this entire topic.

There was an election for a vacant State Assembly here on Tuesday.  One of the candidates was named Haney which gave Mrs. Eephus and I a good laugh.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Odd that you accuse dissent as "not hearing what the other side has to offer".... I'm not proposing everyone move to suburban areas. I'm saying everyone should be able to live where they want. I'm hearing others here (yourself included) push against suburban living in favor of city living.

I’ve only posted about getting away from R-1 as being the only option outside urban areas to having a mixed use alternative. Single family zoning is gospel in America. Basically I’d like to see us rethink Euclidian Zoning (term from the landmark case Village of Euclid, Ohio v. Ambler Realty Co. in 1926 upholding the constitutionality of Zoning.)

This isn’t about city versus country or urban vs suburban. That’s precisely what the debate is not about. Or at least, it’s not the debate postulated in the article of the OP or anything I have linked.

7 minute video of mixed use development:

The Lively & Livable Neighborhoods that are illegal in mist of North America

 

[Eephus]

I’ve only posted about getting away from R-1 as being the only option outside urban areas to having a mixed use alternative. Single family zoning is gospel in America. Basically I’d like to see us rethink Euclidian Zoning (term from the landmark case Village of Euclid, Ohio v. Ambler Realty Co. in 1926 upholding the constitutionality of Zoning.)

This isn’t about city versus country or urban vs suburban. That’s precisely what the debate is not about. Or at least, it’s not the debate postulated in the article of the OP or anything I have linked.

7 minute video of mixed use development:

The Lively & Livable Neighborhoods that are illegal in mist of North America

Mixed use development is going to be a fight.  One of the few things that home owners in red and blue counties agree on is Not In My BackYard.  NIMBYs in areas zoned for single family homes will defend the status quo in every planning commission meeting and the courtroom if necessary.  The core issue also become ensnared with matters of race, class, politics, social media and all the other things that makes modern life so grand.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

this happened in NYC the 70s and 80s fwiw.

Literally the same thing I thought when reading this

 

[Jayrod]

dunno about even the post-edited version of more people than not- that seems a leap on your part- especially considering the surge back to the cities. 

regardless- BL just covered this- it's not a binary between urban density and surburban openness. suburban communities could/should be more walkable with more varied zoning to allow for it. 

Say what? Maybe in an individual or specific city, but there has not been a surge back to cities nationwide.  The opposite is actually true if you take the nationwide trends into consideration, even before COVID and more so after.

Based on some quick internet research, roughly 25% of the population lives in cities with abot 20-30% in rural areas and about half the population in suburban type areas (depending on how you define each the numbers vary).

But the idea that most people don't want to live in cities is rooted in the fact that most simply do not live in cities and the population is apparently trending even further away from cities.

 

[Jayrod]

:laughing emoji like button:

"Everyone" was too strong and I changed it before I even saw your post.

But you city folk apparently don't realize how outnumbered you actually are.  Just like the 2016 election, you think everyone thinks like you and the fact is many (and most in this instance) do not.

 

[El Floppo]

Say what? Maybe in an individual or specific city, but there has not been a surge back to cities nationwide.  The opposite is actually true if you take the nationwide trends into consideration, even before COVID and more so after.

Based on some quick internet research, roughly 25% of the population lives in cities with abot 20-30% in rural areas and about half the population in suburban type areas (depending on how you define each the numbers vary).

But the idea that most people don't want to live in cities is rooted in the fact that most simply do not live in cities and the population is apparently trending even further away from cities.

I was thinking pre-covid...thanks for those links.

 

[El Floppo]

"Everyone" was too strong and I changed it before I even saw your post.

But you city folk apparently don't realize how outnumbered you actually are.  Just like the 2016 election, you think everyone thinks like you and the fact is many (and most in this instance) do not.

Are we coming across as you vs us as you seem to be? I genuinely don't have a stake in this outside of reacting to the op and expressing ideas and support that suburban living can benefit from being more walkable. 

 

[[icon]]

I’ve only posted about getting away from R-1 as being the only option outside urban areas to having a mixed use alternative. Single family zoning is gospel in America. Basically I’d like to see us rethink Euclidian Zoning (term from the landmark case Village of Euclid, Ohio v. Ambler Realty Co. in 1926 upholding the constitutionality of Zoning.)

This isn’t about city versus country or urban vs suburban. That’s precisely what the debate is not about. Or at least, it’s not the debate postulated in the article of the OP or anything I have linked.

7 minute video of mixed use development:

The Lively & Livable Neighborhoods that are illegal in mist of North America

I understand what a Mixed use development is. There is absolutely a time and place for them. 

So you're not in favor of pushing/forcing mixed use development? You just think developers should be doing more of it in places where it works, assuming demand is there?

If so then we're on the same page.  

 

[[icon]]

this happened in NYC the 70s and 80s fwiw.

Good! Then it should happen again if demand shifts.  

Cities adapt to their inhabitants wants and needs... as they should. 

 

[Jayrod]

Are we coming across as you vs us as you seem to be? I genuinely don't have a stake in this outside of reacting to the op and expressing ideas and support that suburban living can benefit from being more walkable. 

I'm trying to present what I think is true and (as usual) am doing a poor job and acting like a d-bag.

The truth is I love cities.  I'd rather live in a big city personally, but my wife and especially my children do not.  Every single member of my extended family, all of my inlaws and every friend I know would rather live in at least the suburbs and many of them really want to live in rural Nowheresville.  I have one cousin who lived in a NYC apartment.  She got married, had 3 kids and moved to a house in Westchester and says she prefers it there.  I'm literally the only person in my entire circle that would be happy in a big city apartment...which is what I'm seeing play out in the numbers as well as I dug into it.  Americans with options don't want to live in a city apartment.

 

[El Floppo]

I'm trying to present what I think is true and (as usual) am doing a poor job and acting like a d-bag.

The truth is I love cities.  I'd rather live in a big city personally, but my wife and especially my children do not.  Every single member of my extended family, all of my inlaws and every friend I know would rather live in at least the suburbs and many of them really want to live in rural Nowheresville.  I have one cousin who lived in a NYC apartment.  She got married, had 3 kids and moved to a house in Westchester and says she prefers it there.  I'm literally the only person in my entire circle that would be happy in a big city apartment...which is what I'm seeing play out in the numbers as well as I dug into it.  Americans with options don't want to live in a city apartment.

Thanks. To me, the issue is you're presenting your truth as absolute...eg: Americans with options don't want to live in cities. Most people I know have options and prefer to live in cities. But I know that's not universal so would never bother stating it the way you have.

Regardless...back to the ideas in the op....

 

[El Floppo]

Good! Then it should happen again if demand shifts.  

Cities adapt to their inhabitants wants and needs... as they should. 

Sorry...you were talking about the now empty commercial real estate, right? I wasn't keeping up.

 

[Eephus]

Sorry...you were talking about the now empty commercial real estate, right? I wasn't keeping up.

It's one thing to convert vacant light industrial buildings to housing or live/work spaces.  It's going to be more difficult to convert a 25 story office building or a shopping mall into apartments. Zoning is only one of the issues developers will face but the scale of the structures and the amount of retrofit required is much great than a SoHo loft.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It's one thing to convert vacant light industrial buildings to housing or live/work spaces.  It's going to be more difficult to convert a 25 story office building or a shopping mall into apartments. Zoning is only one of the issues developers will face but the scale of the structures and the amount of retrofit required is much great than a SoHo loft.

Yet that is exactly what has happened in the Financial District for the past decade.  Office buildings have been converted into apartments and condos.

https://ny.curbed.com/maps/financial-district-nyc-development-map

Many of these are new builds but a number of them are conversions of famous office buildings into residential space.  When I walk that area in the evening now, it feels much different than 20 years ago (when I did volunteer work at 120 Wall St and there was nobody on the street after 8pm except drunks and criminals).

 

[urbanhack]

I love high density urban living and wouldn't trade it for a bunch of space that I would have to fill up with stuff.  If anyone wants to be my neighbor, there's a 981 sq ft apartment around the corner from me that's listed at $4,325/mo.

I miss it. I lived in either Chicago or NYC for 24 years straight. I miss the food, culture, and energy from the city. 

But I have to say I'm enjoying my small house with a yard and garage on a sleepy street in PDX. 

 

[massraider]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot the last few years. The post-WWII suburban experiment is a money losing Ponzi scheme for municipalities

Pushing sprawl further away from cities, building 100% R1 residential zoning, with enormous land dedicated solely to retail parking lots, have created stroads throughout Canada and the USA. From a property tax perspective it’s not sustainable. It fails the most basic planning tenet of “highest best use.”

I get that it’s engraved into our culture. But there is another way.

for your consideration (these are each about 5-10 minutes long):

Strong Towns

The Truth About American Cities - Strong Towns

How Suburban Development Makes American Cities Poorer

Why American Cities Are Broke - The Growth Ponzi Scheme

How Bankrupt Cities Stay Alive

The Ugly, Dangerous & Inefficient Stroads found throughout the U.S. & Canada

The bolded is where my knowledge journey began. Highly recommend starting there

Climate Town: The suburbs Are Bleeding America Dry

related reading: How Suburban Sprawl Is A Ponzi Scheme

CNBC (Feb 2022): How Suburban Sprawl Weighs on the U.S. Economy

If you have not checked some of these links, you should. Very cool stuff. 

It's not enough to say I need my space. Who is going to pay to maintain the infrastucture around your space? 

 

[massraider]

@BobbyLayne 

Are we currently in a good place to move forward with the mixed use, smaller homes?

Boomers looking to downsize, and young buyers are looking for smaller homes?

 

[the moops]

That's not true. Small apartments and micro apartments are very popular.

They're prevalent in a few major cities, sure.

That said, I'd wager MAYBE .01% of the US population lives in them, and at least half of those folks begrudgingly.

Not sure I'd call them very popular. 

The average size of a NYC apartment is like 800 sq ft. Sure, some live in them begrudgingly, but there are millions of people that live in what amount to micro apartments

 

[AAABatteries]

The average size of a NYC apartment is like 800 sq ft. Sure, some live in them begrudgingly, but there are millions of people that live in what amount to micro apartments

I think our house (with finished basement) is about 3,600 sq. ft. for 5 of us plus 2 dogs.  I think we have about .3 acre.  The idea of an 800 sq. ft. apartment is so foreign to me.  I totally get that some love it and I usually enjoy my time when visiting downtown areas but it would be a huge adjustment to go down to something even under 2k sq. ft.