Sigh is about right, because I haven't been given one straight answer and what is meant by defund the police. The most popular answer when the protesters are asked is to eliminate the police department with no plan to replace it.
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American Police Officers (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter spodog
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Stoneworker
Footballguy
spodog
Footballguy
happened last week:
Henderson County, NC deputy Ryan Hendrix has died from his injuries
In a press conference, Henderson County Sheriff Lowell Griffin said Deputy Ryan Hendrix, 35, was shot in the face while responding to a call early Thursday morning. Sheriff Griffin said deputies were responding to reports of a vehicle break-in at around 2:50 a.m.
Early this morning while the world slept, Ryan responded to assist a family needing help when they became innocent victims of a violent encounter. We all know the tragic outcome, but Ryan refuses to let the story end there. Even in passing Ryan continues to exemplify a servant’s heart. You see, Ryan was also an organ donor. He will continue to help strangers for a lifetime, even after making the ultimate sacrifice.
https://wlos.com/news/local/shots-fired-in-henderson-county
Henderson County, NC deputy Ryan Hendrix has died from his injuries
In a press conference, Henderson County Sheriff Lowell Griffin said Deputy Ryan Hendrix, 35, was shot in the face while responding to a call early Thursday morning. Sheriff Griffin said deputies were responding to reports of a vehicle break-in at around 2:50 a.m.
Early this morning while the world slept, Ryan responded to assist a family needing help when they became innocent victims of a violent encounter. We all know the tragic outcome, but Ryan refuses to let the story end there. Even in passing Ryan continues to exemplify a servant’s heart. You see, Ryan was also an organ donor. He will continue to help strangers for a lifetime, even after making the ultimate sacrifice.
https://wlos.com/news/local/shots-fired-in-henderson-county
djmich
Footballguy
Someone should send a note to the family on behalf of PSF...he wasn't a hero and the pension makes it all worth it.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Neither of you have ever supported school vouchers (defunding public education) and such ideas?
As for the analogy it fails because it is backwards. School vouchers want to remove the "easy" stuff from public education and just leave the problems behind but without the resources. Defunding the police wants to shift the stuff that police aren't well suited for elsewhere and leave behind "police work" and working towards properly allocating resources.
As for this thread I find it funny that on 9/11 you guy were talking about this while I suspect a great deal of communities (even with the list reduced because of Covid 19 restrictions) were celebrating first responders including those of the NY fire department and police department that died on that day. And like my little city celebrating its own fire and police simultaneously with many wearing Black Live Matters items.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
What are you talking about? The post was an analogy and nobody said anything promoting the actual defunding of teachers or educations. I vote to keep school tax levies every time that they are on the ticket.
And what do community celebrations on 9/11 have to do with every other day where police officers are getting ambushed. I guess you are happy that your team took a day off from killing police. Thanks for a good day I guess.
spodog
Footballguy
Bridgeton, NJ Police Department officer Sean Peek died Sunday at home hours after he jumped into the Cohansey River in an attempt to rescue a woman who went into the water during a chase, authorities said.
Peek spotted a woman running near the Washington Street bridge over the Cohansey River and saw her either fall or jump into the water, Gaimari said. “Sean made a decision as would any officer and entered to water in attempt to pull the person from the running waters no matter what the circumstances. Other officers apprehended the woman. She was also evaluated at the medical center, then charged with burglarizing several city-owned structures along Mayor Aitken Drive, including the fire department building. She is accused of breaking windows and damaging equipment.
https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2020/09/police-officer-dies-hours-after-trying-to-rescue-burglary-suspect-from-nj-river.html
Peek spotted a woman running near the Washington Street bridge over the Cohansey River and saw her either fall or jump into the water, Gaimari said. “Sean made a decision as would any officer and entered to water in attempt to pull the person from the running waters no matter what the circumstances. Other officers apprehended the woman. She was also evaluated at the medical center, then charged with burglarizing several city-owned structures along Mayor Aitken Drive, including the fire department building. She is accused of breaking windows and damaging equipment.
https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2020/09/police-officer-dies-hours-after-trying-to-rescue-burglary-suspect-from-nj-river.html
This is simply not a true statement for all. It is possible it is a true statement for some people in some circumstances, but not fair to state this as fact.
Let's say my town has a $10m budget for police, and those police do everything from catching criminals and preventing crime to dealing with homeless and harmless mentally disturbed people.
Let's say our original plan was to increase the police budget from $10m to $11m. But instead we keep the police budget $10m and invest that extra $1m in social workers instead. The police focus just on catching criminals and preventing crime. The social workers focus on homeless and harmless mentally disturbed people, as well as on helping neighborhood kids find their path in life. And let's say by allowing the social workers to do this, some homeless and mentally disturbed people improve their lives in a way that prevents them from committing a criminal act in the future, and some kids end up on a better path that does the same for them.
In this fictional example, the work of the police is made easier, as some of the burden is shifted to others, and the number of criminals the police have to deal with goes down.
This is an example of what some people mean by "defund the police" - shifting a portion of the budget from police to other services with the intent of improving the results.
If I believe in this example of "defunding the police" it does not at all mean I am anti police or that I want them to lose their jobs. And it does not mean I don't appreciate all that the police do for us, that I don't applaud all of the examples being posted in this thread. If anything, I think I am pro-police in that I want to make changes to society that would help make the job of police easier.
Now you can of course argue you don't think this fictional example would work, or that it would cost too much, etc., and there can be healthy debate there on what can or can't be done. But please don't lump together everyone who says they want to "defund the police" as all being people who are anti-police or want them to lose their jobs.
gianmarco
Footballguy
All of this.
"Defund the police" is one of the most unfortunate phrases to have come up. It does not describe what most are looking for, which is police reform and using funds for better/different uses. There may be some that want to completely do away with police forces, but I think that's the minority and it's certainly not my position (nor the posters that I've seen here).
It's a perfect example, btw, of why words matter.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Agree with this and the thoughtful post above.
However, the "defund" usage is not just a misapplied turn of phrase, to be swept under the rug as is often done here and in the media. It's been adopted by the entire "movement" as a symbol of exactly what is wanted by those vocalizing it. Not dissimilar to Medicare4All.
There are very real city council proposals (e.g. Denver, Mpls) that call for divesting the police of funds and abolishing the police force as we know it. Not keeping their budget the same and creating additional public svcs to offload misapplied police duties.
How can the general public take true progressive reformers seriously if they continue to let the radicals a) be their spokespeople, and b) also the ones leading the city council initiatives?
gianmarco
Footballguy
I agree. And maybe I'm wrong and there are more people that are actually calling for those radical changes. I would hope not, but it's certainly evident in at least a few spots.
Who knows, let them do it and see what happens. It'll either be a success or an overwhelming disaster.
It would be nice if leaders took the initiative already and started to make actual changes based on what we're seeing instead of still dragging their feet and letting the extreme viewpoints continue to dominate the conversation.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
"Defunding teachers" as in the very real and not just a mind exercise hypothetical "school choice" or vouchers means skimming off the best parts of the job and leaving behind for public school teachers the problems while "defunding police" hopefully means skimming off the problematic tasks and leaving behind what they do best. The analogy also fails because we know what "defunding teachers" means in practice, while we are still feeling our way through what "defunding police" might mean.
spodog
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
99.9 % of what they do contributes - I highly respect police for what they do, its a thankless job in today's world and this new target on their backs put their bu the radical left is horrible
spodog
Footballguy
Memphis police officer Chris Williams responded to shooting call, found a man shot in the neck, and immediately took action which saved the man's life: https://www.wvlt.tv/2020/07/23/memphis-police-officer-called-hero-after-helping-save-mans-life/
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Underpaid? I used to do loans for many of them. I can assure you, they are not underpaid.
spodog
Footballguy
Police officer on his break Christmas shopping at Walmart takes time to offer homeless man assistance in finding an indoor place to sleep for the night. The man refuses the help, so the officer takes him into Walmart to buy him some socks and offers to buy him some food.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ11_L1Ir_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ11_L1Ir_0
spodog
Footballguy
Retired police officer David Dorn killed in June by rioters and looters.
David Dorn, 77, was laid to rest on June 10th of this year. Mr. Dorn, had served 38 years on the St. Louis, MO metro police squad. He then became the Chief of Police in Moline Acres before retiring after a life of service to the public. During retirement, he spent time assisting and counseling youth who had an interest in the police academy and other public service roles.
As protests turned violent night after night in early June, Helen Martin, the owner of Lee's Pawn & Jewelry, turned to Dorn for help in coming up with ways to protect her business, her customers and her employees at her business. Dorn willingly assisted her, advising on security measures and volunteering to be present at the store.
On Thursday night June 4, Dorn was stationed at the business, inside the pawn shop, as BLM protests outside on the street again turned violent and chaotic. As streams of looters busted windows to the store, came inside and stole whatever property they wanted, Dorn was shot by a rioter/looter and left to die alone in the store.
"My dad wouldn't be mad, he'd try to give them another chance," - Dorn's son Brian
https://www.kmov.com/news/watch-surveillance-video-shows-persons-of-interest-wanted-in-connection-with-ret-capt-david-dorns/article_67705e76-a53f-11ea-b8f2-477d6e0f8b6e.html
David Dorn, 77, was laid to rest on June 10th of this year. Mr. Dorn, had served 38 years on the St. Louis, MO metro police squad. He then became the Chief of Police in Moline Acres before retiring after a life of service to the public. During retirement, he spent time assisting and counseling youth who had an interest in the police academy and other public service roles.
As protests turned violent night after night in early June, Helen Martin, the owner of Lee's Pawn & Jewelry, turned to Dorn for help in coming up with ways to protect her business, her customers and her employees at her business. Dorn willingly assisted her, advising on security measures and volunteering to be present at the store.
On Thursday night June 4, Dorn was stationed at the business, inside the pawn shop, as BLM protests outside on the street again turned violent and chaotic. As streams of looters busted windows to the store, came inside and stole whatever property they wanted, Dorn was shot by a rioter/looter and left to die alone in the store.
"My dad wouldn't be mad, he'd try to give them another chance," - Dorn's son Brian
https://www.kmov.com/news/watch-surveillance-video-shows-persons-of-interest-wanted-in-connection-with-ret-capt-david-dorns/article_67705e76-a53f-11ea-b8f2-477d6e0f8b6e.html
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spodog
Footballguy
The starting salary for a Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy is between $5500 and $6000 per month. Are you ready to leave your job/career/business and put your life on the line every day, possibly being subjected to someone randomly approaching your vehicle and shooting you in the jaw, face or neck like what happened to the two officers on the LA County sheriff's force for this salary?
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Oakland County MI in Metro Detroit has had almost half of their cadets and potential sheriffs drop out of their academy since June.
Oakland County is in the top 100 of the largest 3000 counties in the USA for per capita income. Demo of 78% white, 12% black, 10% other. Their starting pay is much higher than most departments. Also it is one of the safest to to an officer. There have been only 13 deaths in 75 years. 6 by gunfire, 5 in vehicle accidents and one drowning.
Right now with a record number of police officers retiring early and cadets dropping out there will be a shortage of officers to fill positions within 12 months. If potential officers are dropping of of this program how are the more dangerous places to be a cop in big cities and urban areas going to fill positions with police officers ?
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
That doesn't include the overtime 'scam'. Their words, not mine. Never seen any of them make less than $120k.
spodog
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Depends. At my age, definitely not. If a younger version of myself knew then what I know now probably. Retiring before 60 is a great enticement, although the divorce rate is relatively high and I'm not good at looking the other way when it comes to corruption.
Florida Highway Patrol officers are underpaid, but not all law enforcement are what I would call underpaid, especially in South Florida. Scott Petersen, a Broward Sheriff Officer of Parkland shame, qualified for a $104,000 annual pension at age 55.
>> The 55-year-old Peterson, a Broward deputy for 32 years, was paid $101,879.03 last year — $75,673.72 in base salary plus overtime and other compensation, according to sheriff’s office records. <<
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-scot-peterson-pension-20180515-story.html%3foutputType=amp
>> The 55-year-old Peterson, a Broward deputy for 32 years, was paid $101,879.03 last year — $75,673.72 in base salary plus overtime and other compensation, according to sheriff’s office records. <<
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-scot-peterson-pension-20180515-story.html%3foutputType=amp
spodog
Footballguy
Idaho Police Officer saves life of man with mental disability who was bleeding to death when he arrived
On Memorial Day, Nick Zucker accidentally broke a window in his home and cut his arm, which severed some arteries. He quickly began to lose massive amounts of blood.
Zucker’s dad, David, is a paramedic. But before he arrived at the scene, someone else showed up: an officer with the Rathdrum Police Department.
Officer Scott Kennedy Sr. responded to Zucker’s home after he was notified about the 911 call and situation.
“He was absolutely blue-grey pale and completely lethargic,” Kennedy said when describing the scene upon his arrival. “I could see blood just everywhere.”
Knowing that time was of the essence, Kennedy took out a tourniquet that he’d brought from his rig when he heard about the 911 call.
“I told him [Nick], this is going to hurt, but this is better than dying, buddy,” Kennedy said.
https://www.krem.com/amp/article/entertainment/places/inland-northbest/he-saved-my-sons-life-rathdrum-cop-praised-as-hero-after-disabled-mans-medical-emergency/293-edff00ba-802b-4dd5-8861-42772df939da
On Memorial Day, Nick Zucker accidentally broke a window in his home and cut his arm, which severed some arteries. He quickly began to lose massive amounts of blood.
Zucker’s dad, David, is a paramedic. But before he arrived at the scene, someone else showed up: an officer with the Rathdrum Police Department.
Officer Scott Kennedy Sr. responded to Zucker’s home after he was notified about the 911 call and situation.
“He was absolutely blue-grey pale and completely lethargic,” Kennedy said when describing the scene upon his arrival. “I could see blood just everywhere.”
Knowing that time was of the essence, Kennedy took out a tourniquet that he’d brought from his rig when he heard about the 911 call.
“I told him [Nick], this is going to hurt, but this is better than dying, buddy,” Kennedy said.
https://www.krem.com/amp/article/entertainment/places/inland-northbest/he-saved-my-sons-life-rathdrum-cop-praised-as-hero-after-disabled-mans-medical-emergency/293-edff00ba-802b-4dd5-8861-42772df939da
spodog
Footballguy
Deputy in South Carolina pulls car over for speeding, saves life of baby in car who wasn't breathing
A terrifying moment has turned into a life-long bond between one woman, her baby and a South Carolina deputy sheriff.
Last June, Deputy William Kimbro pulled over a car for speeding and found a mother frantic inside.
The woman's 12-day-old baby was not breathing.
Kimbro's body camera captured the tense moments as he performed live-saving CPR.
"Come on, baby. Cry for me. Cry for me. Come on, open those eyes, sweetheart. There you go," Kimbro could be heard saying. "I'm worried about her, because she starts breathing and then she stops. And then starts and then stops."
https://abc13.com/deputy-william-kimbro-cpd-baby-cpr-saves/6248272/
A terrifying moment has turned into a life-long bond between one woman, her baby and a South Carolina deputy sheriff.
Last June, Deputy William Kimbro pulled over a car for speeding and found a mother frantic inside.
The woman's 12-day-old baby was not breathing.
Kimbro's body camera captured the tense moments as he performed live-saving CPR.
"Come on, baby. Cry for me. Cry for me. Come on, open those eyes, sweetheart. There you go," Kimbro could be heard saying. "I'm worried about her, because she starts breathing and then she stops. And then starts and then stops."
https://abc13.com/deputy-william-kimbro-cpd-baby-cpr-saves/6248272/
spodog
Footballguy
A heroic Utah State Trooper ignored a train bearing down on him to pull an unconscious driver from a car on the tracks early Wednesday — getting him free just one second before it would have killed them both.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/16/utah-state-trooper-saves-unconscious-man-second-before-train-hits-car/
https://nypost.com/2019/10/16/utah-state-trooper-saves-unconscious-man-second-before-train-hits-car/
spodog
Footballguy
Sometimes being a hero simply means saying the hard things that others don't want to hear. It means calling out the hypocrisy of politicians who pander to the issue of the day. It means talking common sense about the truth between gun legislation and violent crime. It means questioning the intelligence of societal laws that exist but aren't enforced because DA's and elected officials would rather appease rioters and criminals masquerading as protesters than enforce laws on their books.
This Police Captain in Rochester, NY recently spoke some heroic words. In 2020, it is almost a certainty that the most likely outcome from speaking out is the woke crowd will call for his resignation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaojD65baX8
This Police Captain in Rochester, NY recently spoke some heroic words. In 2020, it is almost a certainty that the most likely outcome from speaking out is the woke crowd will call for his resignation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaojD65baX8
squistion
Footballguy
So, is it now OK to post YouTube clips and/or article links from other Police Captains, Police Chiefs or LEOs who also speak out against the hypocrisy of any politician who panders to the issue of the day? Asking for a friend.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
I think defund the police is the wrong approach. It’s more about reform police work to make them more effective at preventing crime, to make things safer for the public and make their jobs safer. There is absolutely research showing what works but in many cases police departments have not taken those approaches or have taken the opposite approach. Best practices can make the streets safer for police and civilians which is the ultimate goal imo.
toshiba
Footballguy
I like how he says they don't enforce existing gun laws and immediately realizes he messed up and tried to fix it. Then takes the typical issue with courts and releasing people who haven't been found guilty.
I have seen a lot, and I mean a lot at these rallies, of hatred and disgust projected at police officers. Certainly the moderates want to spin it as some common sense reforms, but those screaming hatred want the police gone. It is quite remarkable when you see these mothers talking at rallies how what they fear is their children getting gunned down by police and not gang members.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Oh I know and I think it’s a lot of frustration on their part that the problems aren’t getting addressed. Also it’s expectations. We expect gang members to be killers, we expect cops to help. When that doesn’t happen, it is really difficult for people to handle. I’ve seen some really crappy things from cops, I’ve seen racial profiling and my uncle who I know was a good man (and I think was a good copy) shared lots of horror stories of cops he worked with. It’s a challenging issue but I don’t think we’ve really done a good job addressing it and it’s made things less safe for low SES citizens and the officers who patrol those neighborhoods. It’s really unfair to both sides how we have failed to unilaterally adopt reform. I hope that can change but the water has been so poisoned that it’s going to take either really high quality local leaders or bi-partisan commitment from the top.
Certainly, police have a lot of power and unfortunately police work doesn't always attract the best quality of people. There are hundreds of thousands of police and the bell curve suggests there will be thousands on the low end. The people abuse their position and sometimes it will manifest in racism. That is reality. There is room for reforms to improve certain aspects, but to some degree no amount of education or reforms is going to solve all the problems.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I agree that there is bad in every job. There’s bad teachers who are lazy, rude, don’t communicate well, etc. There will always be a bottom tier of police. However we can actually have some cutoffs that say, no teacher who does X can work anymore period. We should have that with police. We also know there are best practices that can on a whole improve teaching and we are pretty much mandated to follow those. We can do that with police as well. It is to their benefit in the long run. It’s just a weird spot we are in right now where I don’t see many widespread committed efforts to actually improve things. Even when we have all the evidence of why we need to and how we can.
spodog
Footballguy
Pueblo, CO police officer, an ex-veteran, talks with a suicidal vet, and resolves a life threatening, tense situation
Veteran was likely on a suicide by cop mission, but Officer stepped in and resolved the situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4xUfJKA7RA
Veteran was likely on a suicide by cop mission, but Officer stepped in and resolved the situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4xUfJKA7RA
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