thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Since a lot of community colleges offer trades, certainly reducing the cost of community colleges could help open up these options to those who could benefit.
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An NYU professor says fewer men going to college will lead to a 'mating crisis' with the US producing too many 'lone and broke' men (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Caveman33
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Sand
Footballguy
The professor is right, but his concentration on college is incorrect. Our schools have taken a very liberal bent that favor females, starting very early. This disparity had been in place for a long time - do you see any recognition of this and a drive toward male education? Umm, no. You still see females advertised as under served. Still. As decades of obvious trends to the contrary are blithely ignored.
Any thought of government switching to catching males up world be castigated by liberal elites, and most importantly, liberals in charge of the education system. Touching the "girls as victims" establishment is a third rail issue.
Schools have been setup to favor female education. You see this with class structure, de-emphasis in physical activities, etc. Discipline structures have been setup to thin the male population. As the father of two boys I'm scared to death for them in a college setting, where they are presumed to be guilty upon any accusation.
This is by design. How can it not be?
Any thought of government switching to catching males up world be castigated by liberal elites, and most importantly, liberals in charge of the education system. Touching the "girls as victims" establishment is a third rail issue.
Schools have been setup to favor female education. You see this with class structure, de-emphasis in physical activities, etc. Discipline structures have been setup to thin the male population. As the father of two boys I'm scared to death for them in a college setting, where they are presumed to be guilty upon any accusation.
This is by design. How can it not be?
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Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Ironic that most of the posters whining about under representation of males in universties seemingly have zero problem with under representation across other demographics.
Caveman33
Footballguy
Who specifically has whined about under representation? I assume you are attempting to make this into a race issue?
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/2016-sat-test-results-confirm-pattern-thats-persisted-for-45-years-high-school-boys-are-better-at-math-than-girls/
Grace Under pressure asked for statistics and I shared this link. I think it also serves well to show you the flaw in what you're attempting. Girls receive better grades from teachers but score lower in math on standardized tests. This does not account for hard work in the classroom, but it clearly demonstrates that it's not aptitude preventing boys from being "represented" in college.
Blacks, male and female, score significantly lower than every other race. If you want to make an analogy, blacks are like the girls in this story, only blacks receive even more favoritism and over representation in colleges.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
So that's a yes. I agree with Moops - yes there has to be some cost/benefit talk, but yes - IMO there are life experiences gained in college that can't be quantified by using ROI.
Also, to be clear - when I was in school tuition was about 1500/semester, so it was a lot easier to work while going or not be buried in debt when you get out.
I get it - you probably just view college as a Marxist propaganda program.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
It's like you don't even want to have a conversation. Take something I said, twist it into something else and pretend that I said it.
I agree with Moops - yes there has to be some cost/benefit talk, but yes - IMO there are life experiences gained in college that can't be quantified by using ROI.
Also, to be clear - when I was in school tuition was about 1500/semester, so it was a lot easier to work while going or not be buried in debt when you get out.
I get it - you probably just view college as a Marxist propaganda program.
Stop making this about me and start focusing on what we're talking about. If you're not interested in that and only want to talk about me then do me a favor - don't post at all.
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Nugget
Footballguy
The trend toward class structure has been Team Based Learning in most classes. Men still take the lead most of the time based on social norms. The role of CoVid and moving more parts of classes to a virtual environment has reduced the advantage that men would get.
Not sure where you are going with the discipline structure to for men. My daughter is off to college next year, and I’m probably more scared for her than I will be for my son.
Systems can be built to affect outcomes. I appreciate the discussion and would love to explore this more later.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Lol, somebody pee in your Wheaties this morning? So taking shots at us like " You sound like a bunch of guys who had your college education paid for by your parents " is focusing on the topic being talked about? I get it, we were close to the mark. I will leave you alone.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I only skimmed a lot of the replies but there doesn't seem to be much of a focus on the key part of his premise
"We have mating inequality in the country," he said, adding that women with college degrees don't want to partner with men who don't hold a degree.
I don't agree with this. My experience has been if a woman is looking to be in a relationship or get married they will eventual "settle" if necessary.
"We have mating inequality in the country," he said, adding that women with college degrees don't want to partner with men who don't hold a degree.
I don't agree with this. My experience has been if a woman is looking to be in a relationship or get married they will eventual "settle" if necessary.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Correct. I see women dating and marrying down quite a bit. It seems odd just to focus on college degree for a main factor of "mating" and base a premise around that. I wonder how high college degree would be on women's priority list for finding suitable life partners. Too bad there are very few of them floating around these boards to offer insight (and I sure won't @ them to drag them into the PSF)
Nugget
Footballguy
Part of it is accessibility. Men and women tend to associate with people of similar backgrounds. Look at your friends and coworkers - most have a similar level of education and income.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Most people manage to find someone if they are truly looking and from what I gather folks are very open to using dating apps and the like. I think this guy makes several assumptions without much evidence.
Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
I agree with this general sentiment, but one unfortunate thing that has occurred in our society is that the ability of a college degree to be used as a sorting/signaling device by employers has forced people who maybe do not want or need the college experience to do so anyway or permanently hinder their employment prospects. To put it another way, you could in theory spend 4 years not in a formal college but reading from books and travelling the world with friends and have just as large of a growth experience. Good luck trying to convince anybody in position to hire you of that though, because it's not legible.whoknew said:
The data does seem pretty indisputable on this. To be fair, you can find the occasional "our boys are really struggling, we should do something" type of article even in mainstream prestige-type publications. It unfortunately seems to be difficult to get the broader educational establishment or society as a whole to pay attention. I'm not sure it's actual animus towards males, but I think decades of focus on the ways girls are hindered has lead to people being unable to consider that there are things you can do that disproportionately harm males.
Anecdotally you may be correct, but the data I've seen referenced suggests that a greater percentage of women than men are uncomfortable with a partner that earns less than them. I'll see if I can dig anything up, but if that is true, than the aforementioned correlation between degrees and earning power would tend to lead to what the NYU professor suggests.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Good thing we pay them less, then!
I'd be interested in reading that info. More and more in my social circles I see wives out earning the husbands. I see more Dads sticking around and being a stay at home parent too.
Caveman33
Footballguy
https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap#section02Good thing we pay them less, then!
I'd be interested in reading that info. More and more in my social circles I see wives out earning the husbands. I see more Dads sticking around and being a stay at home parent too.
Women earn 98% of the pay that men earn in the same job. Is that the gender gap you refer to?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I was under the impression that this was actually pretty well-established, and not just with women. It used to be fairly common for a successful man to be married to, say, a secretary or something. That doesn't seem common at all anymore. It seems like folks are placing a higher priority now on marrying someone with a similar educational background and career trajectory, which is why you see more two-income households where the "second income" is way more than just a clerical position or elementary ed or whatever.
Maybe I'm misinformed, but I thought there were data out there on this. Also, it's quite possible that the pattern I was describing was accurate as of a few years ago but is different now since so much dating takes place online.
Caveman33
Footballguy
My bad, I assumed you believed in the uncontrolled pay gap numbers that get tossed around. 98% is less than 100% and I wouldn't argue with anyone if that was what they referenced when discussing the gender pay gap. The real numbers might illustrate why mating reality is failing to meet expectations for many women. If you believed there was a persistent gender pay gap then you would expect it to be easier to find a suitable man who earned more money than yourself.
https://www.yahoo.com/now/fewer-people-are-getting-married-because-theres-a-shortage-of-economicallystable-single-men-says-study-221607423.html
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Economically stable <> college degree though. Looks like that article was also just targeting 40K and up. Looking at the young guys I encounter, I could see that being an issue I guess as way too many are content barely working and mostly ####### around and playing video games. More than just degrees, I could see general maturity and looking toward the future as being roadblocks for this topic.
Nugget
Footballguy
Think you need to look at both pay gap numbers. If men and women astronauts are paid the same, there could be an argument that we don't have enough women astronauts (I have not researched actual pay or numbers of astronauts).
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
That controlled gap only mentions qualifications. If other controls were added the gap becomes zero.
Gender pay gap is a myth.
What we really do have in society is a family responsibility gap. Women carry a heavier load for the family at home. This makes them miss more work. Which makes them less desirable from an employment perspective.
Somehow many people in society have decided that the way to fix that is to have the burden be on companies to just accept that, rather than focus more appropriately on the roles and responsibilities in the home.
Perfect example is my cousin. Her husband works a low paying job. She is very successful. Has worked at same place forever, has her MBA, has moved up a ton.
If the kids are sick, she is the one that stays home.
Thats pretty stupid and absolutely hurts her career. Not much, but 2% is not unreasonable to think.
Sand
Footballguy
There have been lots of them on the difficulty of black women, in particular, to find mates. The degree disparity there is pretty huge - way more black women get degrees than men right now.
When all is said and done there is some basic biology going on here in choosing mates and women prefer to have at least an equal. This will continue to get worse.
Caveman33
Footballguy
I agree that economic stability is likely the most desired factor when looking for a mate and while a college degree does not guarantee it, I think it does still correlate strongly with those earning upper middle class salaries. I can relate to those low earning young guys, even though I'm not young and I have a degree. There are a multitude of social factors that have likely increased apathy in young men who are easily defeated by the workplace. The landscape has definitely changed dramatically over the last 50 years.
Why is it necessary for two income households to provide a middle class lifestyle when it used to be common for one income to be enough? There have been so many technological innovations and advancements that I would expect the opposite, less work to be necessary. My opinion is that society has created even more bull#### jobs that add no value to society. And bull#### jobs usually pay more than the essential ones that actually add value. Bull#### jobs are competitive. You need to play the game, have connections, or check certain boxes to attain them. Working at a fast food restaurant adds value and basically anyone can get hired. Aside from the fulfillment derived from feeling productivity, I can understand why many young people choose to stay at home and play video games.
Caveman33
Footballguy
Given that your cousin is in a low paying job, I bet that he has less PTO. If he were to take time off, he likely would not get paid. His wife has an MBA so I'm guessing most of her daily duties can be accomplished from home. Also, biologically females are always going to be the primary caregivers. It would be very unnatural for this to change. I agree about the burden this places on companies when making hiring decisions.
Caveman33
Footballguy
https://www.statista.com/chart/17487/number-of-female-nasa-astronauts/
The 2013 cohort was 4 men and 4 women. 2017 was 7 men and 5 women but 1 man did not graduate. Looks fairly balanced but it wouldn't surprise me to see more women in the future. Some people argue that they make better astronauts because their smaller bodies require less oxygen and food and produce less waste. And weightlessness negates the need for physical strength.
massraider
Footballguy
Whatever helps lower the population sounds good to me
roadkill1292
Footballguy
There's a thread around here from the past month or so about declining birth rates, iirc. For those of us who enjoy speculating about future changes, whether they be political, economic or cultural, it's one of the most interesting topics ever.
But the changing roles of women in advanced societies is a pretty good topic on its own.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Great question. My wife and I have both been working at professional, white collar jobs without missing a paycheck for roughly 25 years each. Each of us had lesser jobs before that as well, while in college and high school. So let's say 30+ years of work history each. We've both separately earned more than one household earner would have earned in the previous generation, by far, when accounting for inflation and cost of living, etc. For their entire career.
My Dad is one of 9 kids. His Mom never worked. I am an only child. My Dad worked full time, my Mom mostly part time. My wife and I have one daughter. We both work full time. What's next? Everyone is a DINK and we all work for 40+ years?
I don't have the answers but it certainly isn't getting easier for subsequent generations. Home ownership is another example. Much more difficult for the younger generations. Cost of education, cost of healthcare, cost of childcare. It's interesting. And not in a good way, methinks.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Why are you focusing only on math? Are math scores more correlated with academic/job success than other qualities, like verbal/language skills? Are women over represented in math-intensive disciplines like engineering?
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Although it may not apply for the population as a whole, I know many highly educated women who “married down” to less educated men.
But as far as I can tell, the general trend away from marriage is multifaceted, and I’m not sure male educational status is the most important factor.
But as far as I can tell, the general trend away from marriage is multifaceted, and I’m not sure male educational status is the most important factor.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
To an extent, but I think dating apps make potential mating choices more varied than those historically available.
Zow
Footballguy
When people stop making bad decisions and act reasonably towards we will then need less lawyers. Until then the job security and supply of work is pretty good...Not really, IMO.
And as far as colleges NOT being a far-left bubble we're just going to have to disagree. I think for anyone who is paying attention it's so obvious you simply can't deny it anymore. But, whatever. My bigger point is that college is not worth the ROI anymore. It's just a way to grift money. So to associate that with men not going to college as "lonely and broken" is ridiculous.
I would argue that accountants, financial advisors and economists fall under STEM as well.
I would also argue needing a fancy degree for "teaching" is unnecessary. Teaching, by far, exemplifies one of those professions where the ROI is extremely negative. I would think 2 years is enough.
And we certainly don't need anymore lawyers. I hope we can at least agree on that.
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Caveman33
Footballguy
Dang, my longer reply keeps getting wiped out so I'll just acknowledge that you are correct. I cherry picked math, girls have been scoring higher on verbal/language and those may be more important skills.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don't think I did a good job explaining my thought process - which isn't backup by stats, fwiw. I think if a woman (or man) is desperate to be in a relationship or be married then she/he would settle. My point is less on what they find is optimal and more on how many of these really are wanting a mate. I'm questioning how great a desire they really have for having a mate. Granted, either way that doesn't help the loser in his Mom's basement.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
So did your parents or someone else pay for your college education or not?
I agree with Moops - yes there has to be some cost/benefit talk, but yes - IMO there are life experiences gained in college that can't be quantified by using ROI.
Also, to be clear - when I was in school tuition was about 1500/semester, so it was a lot easier to work while going or not be buried in debt when you get out.
I get it - you probably just view college as a Marxist propaganda program.
It's pretty spot on
The great challenge of our time (and I think where a lot of the anger comes from) is what to do with the uneducated among us. It used to be that you could barely finish high school, get a great job in manufacturing, have a pension, buy a house, get some toys and retire without having to do much thinking. Those same people are still out there with not even close to the same opportunities
Meanwhile women are starting to badly outnumber men in the pursuit of higher education
The great challenge of our time (and I think where a lot of the anger comes from) is what to do with the uneducated among us. It used to be that you could barely finish high school, get a great job in manufacturing, have a pension, buy a house, get some toys and retire without having to do much thinking. Those same people are still out there with not even close to the same opportunities
Meanwhile women are starting to badly outnumber men in the pursuit of higher education
Zow
Footballguy
That or defending something I care a lot about.The "making stuff about me" interest certainly checks out.
the moops
Footballguy
A financial advisor is just one of many people that I would seek input from. I am sure that some financial advisors would argue against going into debt, while others would look at the future earnings and advise me to go for it.
Also - I have spent 10's of thousands of dollars over my life for entertainment. I consider the 10's of thousands I spent on college to be both 1) a worthwhile financial investment (I have a masters degree and am still 30K in debt) and 2) a worthwhile use of my money for the life experiences I had in those 7 years (I was a terrible undergraduate student)
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Nope, my parents didn't have much money. like I said- tuition wasn't that much in the early 90s, either. I think I owed maybe 7k from undergrad when I got out of the UW?
Different discussion as far as cost/benefit now. My kid will have a harder time and decision , since we also have 0 money to help him.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I think the college experience and a lot of the things I cherished are maybe more important for people from smaller towns? meeting people with different backgrounds, ideas, etc. is a big one and 0 chance of that in my 99% white, rural,, WI town of 4000.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
UW - Madison: $5600 per semester and another $5 or $6K for dorms that they REQUIRE freshman to stay in.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
And?
Remember the part where I said how much more expensive it is now? I like the dorms part actually (in theory anyway) should be required to live with someone you don't know too.
Sand
Footballguy
There is a general breakeven for this somewhere in the ~1x your future salary range. You see these stories of students spending 250k for a masters in theater (they're hosed), but if you borrow 60k for a chemical engineering degree you should be just fine.
Nugget
Footballguy
Sammy3469
Footballguy
You're going to have to unpack this for me a bit as I don't really see what "physical activities" has to do with education. It's not the colleges fault males incorrectly value a STEM degree any which would set the vast majority of the population up for the rest of their lives even if it is just a 2 year comp science degree from a community college. Frankly, I don't think this is a problem for colleges to solve, but rather for society to do a better job of explaining the cost/benefit analysis of some these types of professions.
Sand
Footballguy
I was generally referring to primary education - males need more physical activity. It goes to the environment that students need to be able to learn. This starts the degradation leading to college disparities.
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