Exactly. We can in fact get along, with a little effort.I think this mindset would have a similar effect in ALL facets of life... not just when dealing with cops.
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Another killing at the hands of the Police (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter In The Zone
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timschochet
Footballguy
I read the whole post. But you contradicted yourself by offering yourself up as an example. Like you, I've never been treated badly by police either. But I'm not black or Latino.Tim doesn't read the whole post before he responds, but that was literally the first thing I wrote.In other news, there's a news story saying that Bland's injuries are consistent with suicide. We'll have to see what the other autopsy reveals, but it does look as though she did take her own life.
timschochet
Footballguy
And to answer your question: the way we fix it is by punishing police who treat minorities badly, and stop looking for excuses to defend them.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
By your own admission you are treated differently by law enforcement than minorities. Therefore you're not in a position to determine that people could just "play it cool" with "a little effort"- it's not easy to just turn the other cheek at injustice. Nor are you in a position to determine whether doing so would be enough to pacify law enforcement's discriminatory behavior.Exactly. We can in fact get along, with a little effort.I think this mindset would have a similar effect in ALL facets of life... not just when dealing with cops.
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How do you know I'm not black or Latino? I could be, for all you know, and may just be really lucky.Actually, I'm not (but I do have some Cherokee ancestry, enough to tan really well), but to insinuate that blacks and Latinos get into more trouble just because of their skin color is unwise. Yes, it does happen, but it's also known that they can be confrontational. We've all heard the jokes about a fiery Latin temper, who's to say that doesn't play a role?I read the whole post. But you contradicted yourself by offering yourself up as an example. Like you, I've never been treated badly by police either. But I'm not black or Latino.Tim doesn't read the whole post before he responds, but that was literally the first thing I wrote.In other news, there's a news story saying that Bland's injuries are consistent with suicide. We'll have to see what the other autopsy reveals, but it does look as though she did take her own life.
True, and just as there are some ###hole cops, there are also plenty just trying to get through the day. Arresting people creates mountains of paperwork, which most people hate to do, so if someone was playing it cool, I'd at least like to think that the officer is willing to let the person go in order to avoid the hassle. I could be wrong, I sometimes am, but I simply cannot believe that John Q. Fuzzbadge goes into work each day trying to get every minority in trouble, or is otherwise looking for a fight.By your own admission you are treated differently by law enforcement than minorities. Therefore you're not in a position to determine that people could just "play it cool" with "a little effort"- it's not easy to just turn the other cheek at injustice. Nor are you in a position to determine whether doing so would be enough to pacify law enforcement's discriminatory behavior.Exactly. We can in fact get along, with a little effort.I think this mindset would have a similar effect in ALL facets of life... not just when dealing with cops.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
This news is fine and I think the family and news outlets will report accordingly that she allegedly did kill herself.
But, why did it even get to that point to begin with?
We know she was in jail... for three days... for what reason?
She had minimal contact, allegedly with the outside... for what reasons?
Where was an attorney that met with her to break down the law with her?
She was pulled over and in a matter of ten minutes she was on the ground with a knee in her back for... not putting out a cigarette and being a little mouthy. Seriously... that was her "crime".
Who escalated the ordeal? I think 1% of the people will say she did. Reasonable people can only come to the conclusion that the officer did. (I'm reluctant to even call him an officer because if he is a representation of his community, God forbid his community)
She did little swearing or even talking abrasive to him. She didn't say "thugish" comments or call him names or shout anything that would even give rational people pause. Yet, way too many people on this board have given this "officer" a pass, or seemingly a pass on his behavior. If I'm the police chief, this guy is fired the day the video is released. How despicable some have posted on here. Truly despicable.
Jayrod
Footballguy
This and the earlier video of the dude throwing haymakers at the rapper are both inexcusable. If the point is to subdue a suspect, there is absolutely nothing I can see to be gained by delivering punishment to a guys face. And in both cases, the suspect was already subdued. These are literally just police abusing their authority.
I'm also sure that some of the shooting cases are similar where the use of deadly force is excessive and unnecessary. The problem is that we need more accountability on this issue from the LE agencies themselves. And it is in their best interest to do so, because the ability to subdue people by force and use deadly force to protect themselves or others is vital to the law enforcement community. But with the right comes immense responsibility and that is where the problem lies. The law enforcement community is not treating the responsibility portion of their rights to use force strictly enough and it is hurting their credibility on the issue a great deal.
I feel for the cops that are doing it right because now they are being second guessed and treated like criminals because of those that have abused their power AND gotten away with it. The getting away with it is the real problem, IMO. Bad cops will always be around and unfortunate decisions will be made, but they need to be punished properly and the victims deserve justice. Right now, they just aren't getting it and that is a horrible, horrible thing...especially in light of the racial inequities that are occurring with law enforcement.
I'm not sure why the officer pulled her out of the car, either. I didn't watch the video because I don't like watching that sort of thing, but it does seem odd that he'd get that upset over her refusal to put out a cigarette. He should get some sort of discipline headed his way.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Might do you some good to watch some things instead of just free balling your opinion. And, video has a powerful message, just ask Nixon and the people living in the 70's who all of a sudden went against Vietnam. Watch it if you want to speak about it.
Fair point.
I'll pose this question to everyone: How do we put a stop to incidents like these? We can't fire all the police, because crooks would run amok, and training replacements takes time, and the law needs to be upheld to keep something resembling order. Perhaps training for police forces to curb improper behavior?
Short Corner
Footballguy
Nobody is trying to just get through the day. They have quotas to fill.True, and just as there are some ###hole cops, there are also plenty just trying to get through the day. Arresting people creates mountains of paperwork, which most people hate to do, so if someone was playing it cool, I'd at least like to think that the officer is willing to let the person go in order to avoid the hassle. I could be wrong, I sometimes am, but I simply cannot believe that John Q. Fuzzbadge goes into work each day trying to get every minority in trouble, or is otherwise looking for a fight.By your own admission you are treated differently by law enforcement than minorities. Therefore you're not in a position to determine that people could just "play it cool" with "a little effort"- it's not easy to just turn the other cheek at injustice. Nor are you in a position to determine whether doing so would be enough to pacify law enforcement's discriminatory behavior.Exactly. We can in fact get along, with a little effort.I think this mindset would have a similar effect in ALL facets of life... not just when dealing with cops.
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General Tso
Guest
She had a long rap sheet and was delinquent on over $5,000 in fines. She was given numerous phone calls - reports I heard were 5 - and her family did not put up the $500 to bail her out. She apparently had prior suicide attempts. Basically there is no evidence whatsoever that she was murdered, but police are still investigating it as a murder, churning up a lot of resources in the process, and in typical race-baiting fashion the media seems to be riling people up as if a murder did occur.http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/07/23/sandra-bland-had-long-history-of-drivinglegal-infractions-family-who-refused-to-assist-with-bail-now-refusing-to-accept-suicide/
For the 4th time now, the cop was in the wrong. And he should be fired. Most people here are acknowledging that just fine. But he did not kill that lady. And like it or not, her behavior was a large contributor to her arrest. And unless this was the most covered up murder in history, she was also responsible for her own death. If anything, it is her culpability and behavior that is being excused / ignored.
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Mr.Pack
Footballguy
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
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General Tso
Guest
And from that same report, men are 20 times more likely than women to be killed during an arrest. Does that mean men are being discriminated against or being unfairly treated?And that reports also says that whites are 5 times more likely than blacks to commit suicide, and twice as likely overall to die, while in a local jail. Does that mean that whites are being unfairly treated while in jail?squistion said:
The problem with all these statistics is that they assume every person acts the same way while being arrested or incarcerated. So a justified killing where the suspect is shooting at a cop is treated the same as a questionable excessive use of force. The least they could do to weed out the data is to exclude the clearly justifiable homicides from the numbers. Problem with that is - we are so polarized as a society we can't even begin to come to a basic agreement anymore on what a justifiable homicide is. There are still a lot of people on this board, some who are quite educated and have done a lot of reading on the subject, who still think the Michael Brown shooting was not justified.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
it's been nearly 200 years get over it. I have an Asian friend that came from Cambodia late 90's..very successful businessman...You know why...because he gets to work at 11:00 pm and works until 11:00 am.
Lives in nice neighborhood drives nice car ...zero college education. owns own business
Lives in nice neighborhood drives nice car ...zero college education. owns own business
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timschochet
Footballguy
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
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Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
you want respect. live a normal lifestyle. do honest work and be respectful. otherwise shut the #### up.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Arrest and prosecute the cops doing it and stop making excuses for them (like you have been by implying that the victim was to blame). That is the only way to begin to stop it. We live in a police state where we have slowly ceded our rights and given law enforcement the right to do almost anything to us with no accountability. It is ridiculous. My wife asked me if your rights mean anything when dealing with a police officer, and I told her that sadly they mean nothing during the incident/confrontantion itself, although they might later. But in our society we are so ruled by authority that has no check unless its excess is caught on video that trying to articulate or stand up for your rights is meaningless now until you are safely away from the cop.Kal El said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Lol so ridiculous. You're like a mirror image of Butkis, just from the other side. He doesn't think there's any problem at all, while you see a police state.
We don't live in anything close to a police state, and anybody who suggests we do really has no idea what a police state is really like, no offense. Our problem is not the police in general, it's the police's treatment of minorities which represents the last lingering residue of institutionalized racism. It's easy to fix so long as we acknowledge it and really try to fix it. But your nightmares of totalitarianism don't exist in reality.
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Mohawk
Footballguy
Many of you seem eager to overlook this simple fact. The police are representatives of the state. They are empowered by that state, they derive that power from the people who make up the state. They are trained and expected to not only administer the laws enacted by that state, but to also follow those same laws. Regardless of whether they are stressed by their job requirements, or other factors, as representatives of the state, they are, and should be held to a higher standard of behavior. When they wantonly act beyond their given powers, they do great harm, not only to the unfortunate ones being beaten, but to the state itself. Their transgressions cause a general lack of trust in the state, and the downward spiral toward anarchy increases. In other words, we are headed toward lessening civility and respect for the state. In order to circumvent this decline, hyper-militarized police forces have overreacted with violence directed at the perceived bad guys, that is black folks and Latinos. IMHO, we are in the midst of a police state. To expect those who are being victimized by over-aggressive policing, to act more subservient or to grovel, or just to be nice, is misdirected paternalism.
rockaction
Footballguy
An error occurred
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Righteous stuff.
eta* I disagree that we live within the common definition of a police state, but the rest of your point stands.
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General Tso
Guest
So in Baltimore, wasn't it elected official Marilyn Mosby who ordered the cops to ramp up their patrols for drug dealing activities in the district where Freddie Gray was arrested? You know, the same district where her husband is an elected City Councilman? And wasn't it the elected Mayor Stephanie Rawlings Blake who order he cops to stand down when the riots happened? The elected officials dictate the extent of the policing, and by proxy, the populace that puts them in office.
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General Tso
Guest
The good news is that we've got heroic leaders like Stephanie Rawlings Blake and Bill De Blasio taking back the streets from the "police state". http://nypost.com/2015/07/10/apparently-its-now-ok-to-pee-on-the-streets-of-new-york-city/
rockaction
Footballguy
If I may answer for Tso, representation. You're making the argument that the police are no longer representative of the people and that the distortion in representative democracy makes them simply agents of an abstract and nebulous state that draws its powers from nowhere, while Tso is saying that in Baltimore, the agents of state are directly responsible and responsive to their constituents, and therefore representative of constituent wishes.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
It is an incredibly small percentage of individual officers treatment of some small percentage of minorities which represents individual ignorance which is generally in the process of being weeded out.
That said, a single officer with a fouled up belief system generally works 200 shift per year and may have ten or more citizen encounters per shift involving multiple citizens. Very quickly the number of potential abuses mounts. Those officers are afforded due process rights under the constitution and under their bargained for civil service contracts. It is an arduous process to eliminate them from their Departments once hired and through their probationary periods. Still, it is essential that the abuses are addressed. One abuse of police authority is one too many, and unfortunately, though the abuses are statistically rare in general, there are enough encounters that some abuse is occurring somewhere nearly every hour of the day or night. Any one abuse indicts the integrity of the entire system and is wholly unacceptable.These include abuse which happen across the racial spectrum, though I would not argue that they are evenly distributed by racial demographics.
G
General Tso
Guest
Yeah, what he said. (And much better than I ever could).Rock - I have to say, I'm a little taken aback by your position on the police. We'll have to meet up for a beer (or a coke in my case) at Electric Blue one of these nights and hash this out.
Mohawk
Footballguy
Hmmm..politicians are never fully representative of the electorate. They too derive their powers from the consent of the governed. Perhaps Baltmoreans need to elect more responsible and insightful reresentatives. Lacking people of integrity running for office, we are left with a flawed state. I have ZERO ideas how to remedy this sad state of affairs. I only know those who usually take the heat from corruptio are those on the bottom rungs of our economic ladder. And then we expect them to act nicer, because if they don't, well, they know what they can expect.
rockaction
Footballguy
I should also be drinking nothing but cokes at this point and going nowhere near the Blue nor others, but if you want, I'd hope to meet out and would gladly do it. Love some of the stuff you bring to bear on the board. I'm moving, and very soon, but feel free to PM me.
I also think my take on the police is fairly standard for a libertarian who has had many run-ins with the police yet still respects the rule of law and also thinks most people try to do good.
G
General Tso
Guest
Reasonable post. I like the way you focused it on "those on the bottom rungs of our economic ladder". I think that's probably more representative of what's going on than skin color.
rockaction
Footballguy
Good semantic point. Draws its powers from a nebulous and unidentifiable bureaucratic force, maybe.
Or maybe you can flesh it out a bit. Like to hear it, no castigation, no BS.
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timschochet
Footballguy
You say it's incredibly small; I'm not sure of that. But it doesn't matter so long as we pay attention to each incident and try to resolve it. I generally agree with the rest of what you wrote.
jonessed
Footballguy
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