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Another killing at the hands of the Police (7 Viewers)

Kal El said:
I'll pose this question to everyone: How do we put a stop to incidents like these? We can't fire all the police, because crooks would run amok, and training replacements takes time, and the law needs to be upheld to keep something resembling order. Perhaps training for police forces to curb improper behavior?
Arrest and prosecute the cops doing it and stop making excuses for them (like you have been by implying that the victim was to blame). That is the only way to begin to stop it. We live in a police state where we have slowly ceded our rights and given law enforcement the right to do almost anything to us with no accountability. It is ridiculous. My wife asked me if your rights mean anything when dealing with a police officer, and I told her that sadly they mean nothing during the incident/confrontantion itself, although they might later. But in our society we are so ruled by authority that has no check unless its excess is caught on video that trying to articulate or stand up for your rights is meaningless now until you are safely away from the cop.
Lol so ridiculous. You're like a mirror image of Butkis, just from the other side. He doesn't think there's any problem at all, while you see a police state.

We don't live in anything close to a police state, and anybody who suggests we do really has no idea what a police state is really like, no offense. Our problem is not the police in general, it's the police's treatment of minorities which represents the last lingering residue of institutionalized racism. It's easy to fix so long as we acknowledge it and really try to fix it. But your nightmares of totalitarianism don't exist in reality.
It is an incredibly small percentage of individual officers treatment of some small percentage of minorities which represents individual ignorance which is generally in the process of being weeded out.

That said, a single officer with a fouled up belief system generally works 200 shift per year and may have ten or more citizen encounters per shift involving multiple citizens. Very quickly the number of potential abuses mounts. Those officers are afforded due process rights under the constitution and under their bargained for civil service contracts. It is an arduous process to eliminate them from their Departments once hired and through their probationary periods. Still, it is essential that the abuses are addressed. One abuse of police authority is one too many, and unfortunately, though the abuses are statistically rare in general, there are enough encounters that some abuse is occurring somewhere nearly every hour of the day or night. Any one abuse indicts the integrity of the entire system and is wholly unacceptable. These include abuse which happen across the racial spectrum, though I would not argue that they are evenly distributed by racial demographics.
You say it's incredibly small; I'm not sure of that. But it doesn't matter so long as we pay attention to each incident and try to resolve it. I generally agree with the rest of what you wrote.
You could be sure if you cared to. Find the number of police officers in the U.S. multiple that by the number of shifts they work and then again by a conservative number of citizen contacts per shift. Multiple that by a conservative number of citizens involved in each contact. That is your number of opportunities for abuses. Now, find the number of actual abuses. Time to use the two numbers to find the percentage.

Having worked for two different Police Departments, one with a force of 600 and the other 700 I can tell you that less than 1% of the officers had a propensity for abuses. Of those they were far from uniformly abusive during their shifts, and in fact likely had negative encounters on only 1 to 3% of their shifts, and then not in every encounter during those shifts. What you have, generally is less than 1% being abusive les than 1% of the time. The training and weeding out of those who should not have power is pretty well done. The problem is that even though the % is extremely small it still represents a pattern of abuse, and when applied across large metro areas leads to some problem on a daily basis.

BTW, in my job I have had opportunity to view the I.A. and complaint stats from numerous Departments across the country and the numbers are generally consistent, though there are departments that deviate from the norm more than one standard deviation.

Overall policing is done very well. The problem is that this remains not good enough. It will never be good enough. Likely, also, it may never get much better as human endeavors always fall short of perfection.

 
Tim

I bet your community has most, if not all of the following: Civil Service Commission, a Human Rights Commission, a Police Oversight Board, a Police Discipline Review Board, a Police Tactics Review Board, and a Police Directives Advisory Board. Their meetings are likely open to the public. Further, they are probably always looking for members to serve on their boards. Instead of guessing what is going on and constantly advocating an inflammatory position, why not get involved, know what's going on, and offer constructive suggestions.

 
You could be sure if you cared to. Find the number of police officers in the U.S. multiple that by the number of shifts they work and then again by a conservative number of citizen contacts per shift. Multiple that by a conservative number of citizens involved in each contact. That is your number of opportunities for abuses. Now, find the number of actual abuses. Time to use the two numbers to find the percentage.

Having worked for two different Police Departments, one with a force of 600 and the other 700 I can tell you that less than 1% of the officers had a propensity for abuses. Of those they were far from uniformly abusive during their shifts, and in fact likely had negative encounters on only 1 to 3% of their shifts, and then not in every encounter during those shifts. What you have, generally is less than 1% being abusive les than 1% of the time. The training and weeding out of those who should not have power is pretty well done. The problem is that even though the % is extremely small it still represents a pattern of abuse, and when applied across large metro areas leads to some problem on a daily basis.

BTW, in my job I have had opportunity to view the I.A. and complaint stats from numerous Departments across the country and the numbers are generally consistent, though there are departments that deviate from the norm more than one standard deviation.

Overall policing is done very well. The problem is that this remains not good enough. It will never be good enough. Likely, also, it may never get much better as human endeavors always fall short of perfection.
Out of curiosity, where do you get the bolded numbers, or where would you recommend others go to get them? I can't imagine there's a reliable way to obtain that data. Obviously police officers themselves are going to under-report or underestimate the number of incidents of abuse and the number of officers who have a propensity for abuse. And victims of abuse are likely not reporting many of the instances of abuse, because to whom would they report them? That's the whole problem with law enforcement abuse of power- the people doing it are the people tasked with administering justice, so there's no recourse. And as certain incidents go public, we've seen many many examples of law enforcement reacting to allegations of bad behavior by closing ranks and protecting their own over their service to the public.

 
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Kal El said:
I'll pose this question to everyone: How do we put a stop to incidents like these? We can't fire all the police, because crooks would run amok, and training replacements takes time, and the law needs to be upheld to keep something resembling order. Perhaps training for police forces to curb improper behavior?
Arrest and prosecute the cops doing it and stop making excuses for them (like you have been by implying that the victim was to blame). That is the only way to begin to stop it. We live in a police state where we have slowly ceded our rights and given law enforcement the right to do almost anything to us with no accountability. It is ridiculous. My wife asked me if your rights mean anything when dealing with a police officer, and I told her that sadly they mean nothing during the incident/confrontantion itself, although they might later. But in our society we are so ruled by authority that has no check unless its excess is caught on video that trying to articulate or stand up for your rights is meaningless now until you are safely away from the cop.
Lol so ridiculous. You're like a mirror image of Butkis, just from the other side. He doesn't think there's any problem at all, while you see a police state.

We don't live in anything close to a police state, and anybody who suggests we do really has no idea what a police state is really like, no offense. Our problem is not the police in general, it's the police's treatment of minorities which represents the last lingering residue of institutionalized racism. It's easy to fix so long as we acknowledge it and really try to fix it. But your nightmares of totalitarianism don't exist in reality.
It is an incredibly small percentage of individual officers treatment of some small percentage of minorities which represents individual ignorance which is generally in the process of being weeded out.

That said, a single officer with a fouled up belief system generally works 200 shift per year and may have ten or more citizen encounters per shift involving multiple citizens. Very quickly the number of potential abuses mounts. Those officers are afforded due process rights under the constitution and under their bargained for civil service contracts. It is an arduous process to eliminate them from their Departments once hired and through their probationary periods. Still, it is essential that the abuses are addressed. One abuse of police authority is one too many, and unfortunately, though the abuses are statistically rare in general, there are enough encounters that some abuse is occurring somewhere nearly every hour of the day or night. Any one abuse indicts the integrity of the entire system and is wholly unacceptable. These include abuse which happen across the racial spectrum, though I would not argue that they are evenly distributed by racial demographics.
You say it's incredibly small; I'm not sure of that. But it doesn't matter so long as we pay attention to each incident and try to resolve it. I generally agree with the rest of what you wrote.
You could be sure if you cared to. Find the number of police officers in the U.S. multiple that by the number of shifts they work and then again by a conservative number of citizen contacts per shift. Multiple that by a conservative number of citizens involved in each contact. That is your number of opportunities for abuses. Now, find the number of actual abuses. Time to use the two numbers to find the percentage.

Having worked for two different Police Departments, one with a force of 600 and the other 700 I can tell you that less than 1% of the officers had a propensity for abuses. Of those they were far from uniformly abusive during their shifts, and in fact likely had negative encounters on only 1 to 3% of their shifts, and then not in every encounter during those shifts. What you have, generally is less than 1% being abusive les than 1% of the time. The training and weeding out of those who should not have power is pretty well done. The problem is that even though the % is extremely small it still represents a pattern of abuse, and when applied across large metro areas leads to some problem on a daily basis.

BTW, in my job I have had opportunity to view the I.A. and complaint stats from numerous Departments across the country and the numbers are generally consistent, though there are departments that deviate from the norm more than one standard deviation.

Overall policing is done very well. The problem is that this remains not good enough. It will never be good enough. Likely, also, it may never get much better as human endeavors always fall short of perfection.
Why not get rid of the police officers that abuse their powers? Zero tolerance.

Throw the book at them.

It might have an educational effect on their peers

 
You could be sure if you cared to. Find the number of police officers in the U.S. multiple that by the number of shifts they work and then again by a conservative number of citizen contacts per shift. Multiple that by a conservative number of citizens involved in each contact. That is your number of opportunities for abuses. Now, find the number of actual abuses. Time to use the two numbers to find the percentage.

Having worked for two different Police Departments, one with a force of 600 and the other 700 I can tell you that less than 1% of the officers had a propensity for abuses. Of those they were far from uniformly abusive during their shifts, and in fact likely had negative encounters on only 1 to 3% of their shifts, and then not in every encounter during those shifts. What you have, generally is less than 1% being abusive les than 1% of the time. The training and weeding out of those who should not have power is pretty well done. The problem is that even though the % is extremely small it still represents a pattern of abuse, and when applied across large metro areas leads to some problem on a daily basis.

BTW, in my job I have had opportunity to view the I.A. and complaint stats from numerous Departments across the country and the numbers are generally consistent, though there are departments that deviate from the norm more than one standard deviation.

Overall policing is done very well. The problem is that this remains not good enough. It will never be good enough. Likely, also, it may never get much better as human endeavors always fall short of perfection.
Out of curiosity, where do you get the bolded numbers, or where would you recommend others go to get them? I can't imagine there's a reliable way to obtain that data. Obviously police officers themselves are going to under-report or underestimate the number of incidents of abuse and the number of officers who have a propensity for abuse. And victims of abuse are likely not reporting many of the instances of abuse, because to whom would they report them? That's the whole problem with law enforcement abuse of power- the people doing it are the people tasked with administering justice, so there's no recourse. And as certain incidents go public, we've seen many many examples of law enforcement reacting to allegations of bad behavior by closing ranks and protecting their own over their service to the public.
Actually there was a time when reporting abuse was a daunting process. Once upon a time to do so meant coming into station houses, surrounded by the very uniforms with which you just had an adverse experience, sitting, waiting, and filling out forms. Nowadays there are very few Departments which do not have telephone complaint lines and on line reporting. Given case law out there these complaints are all logged and investigated. Whether they lead to discipline, or are found wholly unfounded the records are kept during the entirety of an Officer's employment and are discoverable by subpoena and are then reviewed by the Courts to determine whether they should be made public in trials wherein that officer may be testifying, not just the trial involving the incident, but in all trials involving that officer throughout the remainder of their career.

additionally any officer who uses force during a shift is required to fill out a use of force report. These are Departmental business records and are obtainable through open records requests and can be reviewed by any who would care to do so. If an officer fails to report any use of force, abusive in their minds or not, that failure is subject to discipline and is a firing offense. Those reports are subject to review by the Department, and in most departments are turned over to Tactical Review Boards and Civil Service Review Boards. They are turned over without the names included, but the incidents are reviewed and if discipline is appropriate it occurs.

Oversight and access to information is not the problem, nor is training or vetting of recruits and officers. The problem is that these safeguards are put into place after tragedy. the mob howls, and rightfully so, institutional changes are made and safeguards instituted. The issue fades, and then these boards are not populated by concerned and fair-minded citizens, but rather by interested parties, retired officers, politicians out of office hoping to get back in and willing to curry the favor of the unions who have large war chests for campaign contributions.

The systems are more or less sound. the application of those systems takes ongoing hard work by fair-minded folks. the reality is that fair-minded folks, lack the attention span and interest to people these Boards and they are taken over by interested parties who subvert them. many times I have seen Departments act swiftly and correctly. Discipline is imposed, the officer appeals, the appeal is heard by a Board comprised of former members of the union, and they draw together. they determine that though something may have happened the officer has a substantial interest in continuing a career for which he has devoted substantial time and resources in his training, and he should be retrained and given another chance. That, off course, means turning that known danger loose back on the community. If you want change it is simple, volunteer your time and effort to see that good and responsible government happens. do not let the systems be coopted by those with an agenda. Human nature being what it is I lament that this will ever happen in a meaningful way. We all hope someone else will do the work. We are concerned with our own lives and families. I too suffer that same disinterest.

Oh, the bolded numbers I get from being a Police Legal Advisor after being a Prosecutor. I have access to complaint, discipline, I.A. files as well as all use of force reports. Additionally I have been on several national committees setting Directives and writing model rules and directives.

As for there being no recourse I would disagree. There are plenty of private lawyers and many advocacy groups devoted to creating recourse. Suits against individual officers and departments are, unfortunately, big business.

 
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DW, the problem with your assertion is how many abuses are actually reported? I believe most blacks in this country have been stopped and harassed by police several times throughout their lives, and the vast majority of them simply endure the mistreatment and loss of dignity because to complain might make things worse. So IMO we really have no idea of the level of abuse that goes on.

 
Kal El said:
I'll pose this question to everyone: How do we put a stop to incidents like these? We can't fire all the police, because crooks would run amok, and training replacements takes time, and the law needs to be upheld to keep something resembling order. Perhaps training for police forces to curb improper behavior?
Arrest and prosecute the cops doing it and stop making excuses for them (like you have been by implying that the victim was to blame). That is the only way to begin to stop it. We live in a police state where we have slowly ceded our rights and given law enforcement the right to do almost anything to us with no accountability. It is ridiculous. My wife asked me if your rights mean anything when dealing with a police officer, and I told her that sadly they mean nothing during the incident/confrontantion itself, although they might later. But in our society we are so ruled by authority that has no check unless its excess is caught on video that trying to articulate or stand up for your rights is meaningless now until you are safely away from the cop.
Lol so ridiculous. You're like a mirror image of Butkis, just from the other side. He doesn't think there's any problem at all, while you see a police state.

We don't live in anything close to a police state, and anybody who suggests we do really has no idea what a police state is really like, no offense. Our problem is not the police in general, it's the police's treatment of minorities which represents the last lingering residue of institutionalized racism. It's easy to fix so long as we acknowledge it and really try to fix it. But your nightmares of totalitarianism don't exist in reality.
It is an incredibly small percentage of individual officers treatment of some small percentage of minorities which represents individual ignorance which is generally in the process of being weeded out.

That said, a single officer with a fouled up belief system generally works 200 shift per year and may have ten or more citizen encounters per shift involving multiple citizens. Very quickly the number of potential abuses mounts. Those officers are afforded due process rights under the constitution and under their bargained for civil service contracts. It is an arduous process to eliminate them from their Departments once hired and through their probationary periods. Still, it is essential that the abuses are addressed. One abuse of police authority is one too many, and unfortunately, though the abuses are statistically rare in general, there are enough encounters that some abuse is occurring somewhere nearly every hour of the day or night. Any one abuse indicts the integrity of the entire system and is wholly unacceptable. These include abuse which happen across the racial spectrum, though I would not argue that they are evenly distributed by racial demographics.
You say it's incredibly small; I'm not sure of that. But it doesn't matter so long as we pay attention to each incident and try to resolve it. I generally agree with the rest of what you wrote.
You could be sure if you cared to. Find the number of police officers in the U.S. multiple that by the number of shifts they work and then again by a conservative number of citizen contacts per shift. Multiple that by a conservative number of citizens involved in each contact. That is your number of opportunities for abuses. Now, find the number of actual abuses. Time to use the two numbers to find the percentage.

Having worked for two different Police Departments, one with a force of 600 and the other 700 I can tell you that less than 1% of the officers had a propensity for abuses. Of those they were far from uniformly abusive during their shifts, and in fact likely had negative encounters on only 1 to 3% of their shifts, and then not in every encounter during those shifts. What you have, generally is less than 1% being abusive les than 1% of the time. The training and weeding out of those who should not have power is pretty well done. The problem is that even though the % is extremely small it still represents a pattern of abuse, and when applied across large metro areas leads to some problem on a daily basis.

BTW, in my job I have had opportunity to view the I.A. and complaint stats from numerous Departments across the country and the numbers are generally consistent, though there are departments that deviate from the norm more than one standard deviation.

Overall policing is done very well. The problem is that this remains not good enough. It will never be good enough. Likely, also, it may never get much better as human endeavors always fall short of perfection.
Why not get rid of the police officers that abuse their powers? Zero tolerance.

Throw the book at them.

It might have an educational effect on their peers
Most Department Chiefs and Command Staffs share that sentiment. The few rotten apples do taint the whole barrel. Departments have substantial economic incentive to do so as many are self insured, in whole or in part. Judgments against departments reduce potential funding for raises and retirements. The problem is that Chiefs are not all powerful. their disciplines are subject to review in Civil Service Commissions. The unions join ranks believing it gives them power. they stand unified even in the face of undeniable evidence. Unity overall is their creed. Sadly they hurt themselves in this attitude. The few bad apples they stand behind reduce the very pie from which the unions feed by giving slices over to lawyers and victims. Just once I would like to see them act more like guilds or professional associations. I would like them to say this abusive behavior is not us, we will not tolerate it, we are better than this, the officer is on their own. Frankly, if they did I think they would have a stronger bargaining position when their contracts renew, but that is not the union mindset.

 
DW, the problem with your assertion is how many abuses are actually reported? I believe most blacks in this country have been stopped and harassed by police several times throughout their lives, and the vast majority of them simply endure the mistreatment and loss of dignity because to complain might make things worse. So IMO we really have no idea of the level of abuse that goes on.
I know you sincerely hold your position. I simply assert that it is an emotional position and not well informed. Citizens are quite free to file complaints, it is easy and potentially, if true, lucrative. Very few in this day and age in our society are at all hesitant to complain. The problem is quite the opposite of what you imagine. False complaints are rampant. Folks hope to game the system for profit and for imagined advantage in their criminal cases.

Again, I invite you to become part of the process. Join a Board in your community. Educate yourself, if you dare, and if you are actually open to the intellectual challenge.

 
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Actually there was a time when reporting abuse was a daunting process. Once upon a time to do so meant coming into station houses, surrounded by the very uniforms with which you just had an adverse experience, sitting, waiting, and filling out forms. Nowadays there are very few Departments which do not have telephone complaint lines and on line reporting. Given case law out there these complaints are all logged and investigated. Whether they lead to discipline, or are found wholly unfounded the records are kept during the entirety of an Officer's employment and are discoverable by subpoena and are then reviewed by the Courts to determine whether they should be made public in trials wherein that officer may be testifying, not just the trial involving the incident, but in all trials involving that officer throughout the remainder of their career.
The relative difficulty of the process isn't the problem. The problem is that people tend not to report their abuse to their abusers because they assume at best that nothing will be done and at worst there will be retaliation. And that isn't likely to change if people insist that this isn't a big problem when both statistics and overwhelming anecdotal evidence indicates that it is- and even if it isn't, the perception in the black community is that it is, which leads to that feeling of helplessness.

additionally any officer who uses force during a shift is required to fill out a use of force report. These are Departmental business records and are obtainable through open records requests and can be reviewed by any who would care to do so. If an officer fails to report any use of force, abusive in their minds or not, that failure is subject to discipline and is a firing offense. Those reports are subject to review by the Department, and in most departments are turned over to Tactical Review Boards and Civil Service Review Boards. They are turned over without the names included, but the incidents are reviewed and if discipline is appropriate it occurs.
The events of the last year or so have made it abundantly clear that police lie on official reports to protect their own interests. I'm not sure how frequently it happens, but it clearly does happen, so I don't think a reporting requirement solves anything.

Oversight and access to information is not the problem, nor is training or vetting of recruits and officers. The problem is that these safeguards are put into place after tragedy. the mob howls, and rightfully so, institutional changes are made and safeguards instituted. The issue fades, and then these boards are not populated by concerned and fair-minded citizens, but rather by interested parties, retired officers, politicians out of office hoping to get back in and willing to curry the favor of the unions who have large war chests for campaign contributions.

The systems are more or less sound. the application of those systems takes ongoing hard work by fair-minded folks. the reality is that fair-minded folks, lack the attention span and interest to people these Boards and they are taken over by interested parties who subvert them. many times I have seen Departments act swiftly and correctly. Discipline is imposed, the officer appeals, the appeal is heard by a Board comprised of former members of the union, and they draw together. they determine that though something may have happened the officer has a substantial interest in continuing a career for which he has devoted substantial time and resources in his training, and he should be retrained and given another chance. That, off course, means turning that known danger loose back on the community. If you want change it is simple, volunteer your time and effort to see that good and responsible government happens. do not let the systems be coopted by those with an agenda. Human nature being what it is I lament that this will ever happen in a meaningful way. We all hope someone else will do the work. We are concerned with our own lives and families. I too suffer that same disinterest
This is all well and good, and excellent advice to any people who want to change things for the better. I'm very lucky to live in an urban area where change is already well underway thanks to an excellent Chief of Police. Sure, interested citizens can make things better. But so can better cops and better rules, and that frankly is the simplest path. From the linked article:

Even as other major cities have in the last year struggled with police-community relations, and protest movements like Black Lives Matter have spread nationwide, Lanier has presided over a capital that has remained relatively free of conflict between cops and the community—largely the result of stringent use-of-force regulations the Metropolitan Police Department implemented years ago following its own controversies.

Oh, the bolded numbers I get from being a Police Legal Advisor after being a Prosecutor. I have access to complaint, discipline, I.A. files as well as all use of force reports. Additionally I have been on several national committees setting Directives and writing model rules and directives.
I appreciate your input, it's great having someone in the thread with your level of involvement and expertise on this subject. :thumbup:

 
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DW, the problem with your assertion is how many abuses are actually reported? I believe most blacks in this country have been stopped and harassed by police several times throughout their lives, and the vast majority of them simply endure the mistreatment and loss of dignity because to complain might make things worse. So IMO we really have no idea of the level of abuse that goes on.
I know you sincerely hold your position. I simply assert that it is an emotional position and not well informed. Citizens are quite free to file complaints, it is easy and potentially, if true, lucrative. Very few in this day and age in our society are at all hesitant to complain. The problem is quite the opposite of what you imagine. False complaints are rampant. Folks hope to game the system for profit and for imagined advantage in their criminal cases.Again, I invite you to become part of the process. Join a Board in your community. Educate yourself, if you dare, and if you are actually open to the intellectual challenge.
I don't live in a community with a lot of minorities.
 
Tobias - what specific case are you referring to when you say it is "abundantly clear that police lie on official reports to protect their own interests"?

 
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Actually there was a time when reporting abuse was a daunting process. Once upon a time to do so meant coming into station houses, surrounded by the very uniforms with which you just had an adverse experience, sitting, waiting, and filling out forms. Nowadays there are very few Departments which do not have telephone complaint lines and on line reporting. Given case law out there these complaints are all logged and investigated. Whether they lead to discipline, or are found wholly unfounded the records are kept during the entirety of an Officer's employment and are discoverable by subpoena and are then reviewed by the Courts to determine whether they should be made public in trials wherein that officer may be testifying, not just the trial involving the incident, but in all trials involving that officer throughout the remainder of their career.
The relative difficulty of the process isn't the problem. The problem is that people tend not to report their abuse to their abusers because they assume at best that nothing will be done and at worst there will be retaliation. And that isn't likely to change if people insist that this isn't a big problem when both statistics and overwhelming anecdotal evidence indicates that it is- and even if it isn't, the perception in the black community is that it is, which leads to that feeling of helplessness.

additionally any officer who uses force during a shift is required to fill out a use of force report. These are Departmental business records and are obtainable through open records requests and can be reviewed by any who would care to do so. If an officer fails to report any use of force, abusive in their minds or not, that failure is subject to discipline and is a firing offense. Those reports are subject to review by the Department, and in most departments are turned over to Tactical Review Boards and Civil Service Review Boards. They are turned over without the names included, but the incidents are reviewed and if discipline is appropriate it occurs.
The events of the last year or so have made it abundantly clear that police lie on official reports to protect their own interests. I'm not sure how frequently it happens, but it clearly does happen, so I don't think a reporting requirement solves anything.

Oversight and access to information is not the problem, nor is training or vetting of recruits and officers. The problem is that these safeguards are put into place after tragedy. the mob howls, and rightfully so, institutional changes are made and safeguards instituted. The issue fades, and then these boards are not populated by concerned and fair-minded citizens, but rather by interested parties, retired officers, politicians out of office hoping to get back in and willing to curry the favor of the unions who have large war chests for campaign contributions.

The systems are more or less sound. the application of those systems takes ongoing hard work by fair-minded folks. the reality is that fair-minded folks, lack the attention span and interest to people these Boards and they are taken over by interested parties who subvert them. many times I have seen Departments act swiftly and correctly. Discipline is imposed, the officer appeals, the appeal is heard by a Board comprised of former members of the union, and they draw together. they determine that though something may have happened the officer has a substantial interest in continuing a career for which he has devoted substantial time and resources in his training, and he should be retrained and given another chance. That, off course, means turning that known danger loose back on the community. If you want change it is simple, volunteer your time and effort to see that good and responsible government happens. do not let the systems be coopted by those with an agenda. Human nature being what it is I lament that this will ever happen in a meaningful way. We all hope someone else will do the work. We are concerned with our own lives and families. I too suffer that same disinterest
This is all well and good, and excellent advice to any people who want to change things for the better. I'm very lucky to live in an urban area where change is already well underway thanks to an excellent Chief of Police. Sure, interested citizens can make things better. But so can better cops and better rules, and that frankly is the simplest path. From the linked article:

Even as other major cities have in the last year struggled with police-community relations, and protest movements like Black Lives Matter have spread nationwide, Lanier has presided over a capital that has remained relatively free of conflict between cops and the community—largely the result of stringent use-of-force regulations the Metropolitan Police Department implemented years ago following its own controversies.

Oh, the bolded numbers I get from being a Police Legal Advisor after being a Prosecutor. I have access to complaint, discipline, I.A. files as well as all use of force reports. Additionally I have been on several national committees setting Directives and writing model rules and directives.
I appreciate your input, it's great having someone in the thread with your level of involvement and expertise on this subject. :thumbup:
Seems like you are open-minded. You may weight things differently than do I, but you fair-minded. I recognize that my opinions are that, opinions only, they are far from the truth revealed from on high and carved into stone by some fiery finger. Your community could use you, if you had the time.

 
DW, the problem with your assertion is how many abuses are actually reported? I believe most blacks in this country have been stopped and harassed by police several times throughout their lives, and the vast majority of them simply endure the mistreatment and loss of dignity because to complain might make things worse. So IMO we really have no idea of the level of abuse that goes on.
I know you sincerely hold your position. I simply assert that it is an emotional position and not well informed. Citizens are quite free to file complaints, it is easy and potentially, if true, lucrative. Very few in this day and age in our society are at all hesitant to complain. The problem is quite the opposite of what you imagine. False complaints are rampant. Folks hope to game the system for profit and for imagined advantage in their criminal cases.Again, I invite you to become part of the process. Join a Board in your community. Educate yourself, if you dare, and if you are actually open to the intellectual challenge.
I don't live in a community with a lot of minorities.
But the ones that are there, how about them? And how about improved, responsible policing in general?

 
Tobias - what specific case are you referring to when you say it is "abundantly clear that police lie on official reports to protect their own interests"?
I have known this to occur. Humans are susceptible to all range of behavior, police included. Statistically very rare, but still a very significant problem when it does occur.

 
I agree I could make more of a personal effort DW. I have a very close friend on my local force. I will talk to him; thanks for the advice.

 
DW, the problem with your assertion is how many abuses are actually reported? I believe most blacks in this country have been stopped and harassed by police several times throughout their lives, and the vast majority of them simply endure the mistreatment and loss of dignity because to complain might make things worse. So IMO we really have no idea of the level of abuse that goes on.
I know you sincerely hold your position. I simply assert that it is an emotional position and not well informed. Citizens are quite free to file complaints, it is easy and potentially, if true, lucrative. Very few in this day and age in our society are at all hesitant to complain. The problem is quite the opposite of what you imagine. False complaints are rampant. Folks hope to game the system for profit and for imagined advantage in their criminal cases.Again, I invite you to become part of the process. Join a Board in your community. Educate yourself, if you dare, and if you are actually open to the intellectual challenge.
I don't live in a community with a lot of minorities.
I do. Friends and neighbors. My cul-de-sac has 10 homes. 5 of them are owned by persons you would classify as minorities. to my right is an African American family, to my left undocumented Mexicans having moved in when the Korean family moved out, and directly across the street from me a Chinese American extended family.

One might have thought that with the way you champion the cause of minorities that you might live among some, not that this is a prerequisite for championing the cause..

 
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Tobias - what specific case are you referring to when you say it is "abundantly clear that police lie on official reports to protect their own interests"?
Really?

Where to begin. Chronologically, perhaps?

Sandra Bland

The video also confirmed an account from the family’s lawyer that the confrontation between Ms. Bland and the trooper, Brian T. Encinia, escalated after she refused his order to put out a cigarette, Mr. West said. Neither the stun gun nor the confrontation over the cigarette was mentioned in Trooper Encinia’s incident report, which was also made public on Tuesday.
Who's next? Walter Scott? Let's enjoy the police account of the incident before the video of the incident was made public, shall we?

A statement released by North Charleston police spokesman Spencer Pryor said a man ran on foot from the traffic stop and an officer deployed his department-issued Taser in an attempt to stop him.

That did not work, police said, and an altercation ensued as the men struggled over the device. Police allege that during the struggle the man gained control of the Taser and attempted to use it against the officer.

The officer then resorted to his service weapon and shot him, police alleged.

It was not immediately clear how many times Scott had been shot or where on his body he was wounded. Officers tried to revive him prior to the arrival of paramedics, police said.
Who else? Want to do Tamir Rice next? That one could go on for a while.

The interesting thing, of course, is that we only catch them in these lies when there's video that directly contradicts their statements. If anyone thinks they're telling the whole truth every time there's a questionable use of force incident that's not captured on video, I've got a bridge to sell you.

 
Tobias - what specific case are you referring to when you say it is "abundantly clear that police lie on official reports to protect their own interests"?
I have known this to occur. Humans are susceptible to all range of behavior, police included. Statistically very rare, but still a very significant problem when it does occur.
I definitely concede that it does occur. I'm more curious as to what I may have missed with the high profile cases in the past year.
 
Tobias - what specific case are you referring to when you say it is "abundantly clear that police lie on official reports to protect their own interests"?
Really?

Where to begin. Chronologically, perhaps?

Sandra Bland

The video also confirmed an account from the familys lawyer that the confrontation between Ms. Bland and the trooper, Brian T. Encinia, escalated after she refused his order to put out a cigarette, Mr. West said. Neither the stun gun nor the confrontation over the cigarette was mentioned in Trooper Encinias incident report, which was also made public on Tuesday.
Who's next? Walter Scott? Let's enjoy the police account of the incident before the video of the incident was made public, shall we?

A statement released by North Charleston police spokesman Spencer Pryor said a man ran on foot from the traffic stop and an officer deployed his department-issued Taser in an attempt to stop him.

That did not work, police said, and an altercation ensued as the men struggled over the device. Police allege that during the struggle the man gained control of the Taser and attempted to use it against the officer.

The officer then resorted to his service weapon and shot him, police alleged.

It was not immediately clear how many times Scott had been shot or where on his body he was wounded. Officers tried to revive him prior to the arrival of paramedics, police said.
Who else? Want to do Tamir Rice next? That one could go on for a while.

The interesting thing, of course, is that we only catch them in these lies when there's video that directly contradicts their statements. If anyone thinks they're telling the whole truth every time there's a questionable use of force incident that's not captured on video, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were postulating about police protecting their own. No doubt the bad cop in question lies on the incident reports - I concede that 100%.
 
A poll just released, which I heard on CBS news radio:

82% of white people feel safe and trust the police.

58% of black people feel safe and trust the police.

 
Seeking out information to buttress your viewpoint? Not factual information, but perception information. Still, I suppose the fact is perception begets its own reality. If that is in fact the case by enforcing and broadcasting your perception you may actually be creating the very thing you abhor.

 
Seeking out information to buttress your viewpoint? Not factual information, but perception information. Still, I suppose the fact is perception begets its own reality. If that is in fact the case by enforcing and broadcasting your perception you may actually be creating the very thing you abhor.
I didn't seek that out. It was headline news and I thought it was worth posting.
 
Oh no, not that argument again: pointing out police abuse of minorities creates police abuse of minorities?
I'm just dicking around with Tim. Forgive me. And I hope Tim does too. He is a good fellow, earnest, and with a heart concerned with justice and equity. I should not alleviate my boredom by poking at him.

Sorry Tim.

 
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Seeking out information to buttress your viewpoint? Not factual information, but perception information. Still, I suppose the fact is perception begets its own reality. If that is in fact the case by enforcing and broadcasting your perception you may actually be creating the very thing you abhor.
I didn't seek that out. It was headline news and I thought it was worth posting.
It was a sad time in our country when news reporting shifted to reporting polling data from the ill-informed rather than to accurately reporting events.

 
Oh no, not that argument again: pointing out police abuse of minorities creates police abuse of minorities?
I'm just dicking around with Tim. forgive me. And I hope Tim does too. He is a good fellow, earnest, and with a heart concerned with justice and equity. I should not alleviate my boredom poking at him.Sorry Tim.
Dude you're fine. If I let ribbing bother me I would not have lasted long in this forum. Besides, most of your responses have been thought provoking.
 
DW, the problem with your assertion is how many abuses are actually reported? I believe most blacks in this country have been stopped and harassed by police several times throughout their lives, and the vast majority of them simply endure the mistreatment and loss of dignity because to complain might make things worse. So IMO we really have no idea of the level of abuse that goes on.
Why do you think this is exclusive to minorities? I have personally been stopped and harassed multiple times, and I'm the epitome of Caucasian.

 
Speaking of killings at the hands of police, a relevant article...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/06/excited_delirium_deaths_in_police_custody_diagnosis_or_cover_up.html

When Natasha McKenna was in police custody at the Fairfax County, Virginia, jail in February, the mentally ill woman was restrained by six deputies who, unable to subdue her, shocked her with a Taser. She died several days later. But as the Washington Post reported recently, when the Virginia medical examiner’s office ruled on the cause of death, the conclusion was that a rare and mysterious syndrome known as “excited delirium” had actually killed her, and not the Taser or the extreme force used by six officers against a woman suffering from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder who weighed just 130 pounds.

“Excited delirium” is the name given to a condition in which a person, either as a result of mental illness or protracted use of stimulants such as cocaine or methamphetamines, becomes extremely violent; hyperaggressive; and is often found naked, agitated, incoherent, feverish, and displaying extraordinary strength. The phenomenon is reported most often in police encounters, requiring, on average, four officers to restrain the suspect. In approximately 10 percent of cases, according to the literature, the person with excited delirium may die suddenly. The heart or breathing simply stops. So when someone dies in that agitated state and no other cause of death is found, the medical finding is that excited delirium was the cause. It accounts for approximately 250 deaths in the United States each year, with one expert speculating that about 800 cases occur each year nationwide.

The obvious problem is this: What do we make of a syndrome that seems to occur almost unerringly when a police officer is choking, hog-tying, or stunning with a Taser someone with a mental illness or drug addiction? And why do many experts dispute that the diagnosis even exists? While excited delirium is used to explain a significant number of deaths occurring in police custody, the term has not been recognized as a genuine mental health condition by the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, or the World Health Organization.

...<snip>...
 
No one died here but it speaks to the attitude of a group of cops in Ft. Lauderdale. Disturbing to me is the quote from a young cop claiming he had to act this way in order to fit in. So, maybe it goes beyond this group?

Oh yeah, NSFW.

 
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Mario Kart said:
Certainly the Detective did not de-escalate the situation nor act professionally, in fact he did quite the opposite, nearly precipitating a crisis that did not have to be. He could have easily called it in while following at a safe and non-confrontatory distance and have waited for a marked cruiser to pull the driver over in orderly fashion, and he should have. He should be severely disciplined internally and the matter should be submitted to the D.A. to determine whether his words constitute a crime under Mass. law.

 
Mario Kart said:
Certainly the Detective did not de-escalate the situation nor act professionally, in fact he did quite the opposite, nearly precipitating a crisis that did not have to be. He could have easily called it in while following at a safe and non-confrontatory distance and have waited for a marked cruiser to pull the driver over in orderly fashion, and he should have. He should be severely disciplined internally and the matter should be submitted to the D.A. to determine whether his words constitute a crime under Mass. law.
It is a shame that when we have to protect ourselves from those we hire to protect us.

 
re Cincy:

It looked like the victim was both getting out of the car AND starting the starting the car at the same time. Am I seeing that wrong? I wonder what his intention was. Either way, he didn't deserve to be shot in his dome.

 
re Cincy:

It looked like the victim was both getting out of the car AND starting the starting the car at the same time. Am I seeing that wrong? I wonder what his intention was. Either way, he didn't deserve to be shot in his dome.
It looked like dubose was putting the car in gear to drive away and the officer was trying to stop him.

 
Didn't the cop scuff his pants when he fell after the kill shot?? I hope the jury takes that into consideration.

 
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Utility companies sending folks home here as rioting is breaking out. Not sure why the rioting, really, other than "because they can". The cops arrested a murderer. Isn't that what you want?

 
re Cincy:

It looked like the victim was both getting out of the car AND starting the starting the car at the same time. Am I seeing that wrong? I wonder what his intention was. Either way, he didn't deserve to be shot in his dome.
Looking at the video, it appears that the driver was starting the car while the officer was trying to get him to exit the car. The driver refused to exit the vehicle when directed by the office, but with that said there was no reason to shoot anyone here. It was completely out of line by the office and he should be convicted.

 
Wow, horrible. Looks like a shut and close case on this one. Thank goodness for the body cam (which I think every cop should have on them).

 
For anyone who was critical of the protest movements and asked what they were hoping to accomplish- here you go. This POS is the first Cincinnati cop ever to be charged with murder for an on-duty shooting. If you think that happens without all the protests and resulting media attention you're out of your mind. Hopefully his arrest, along with similar incidents like the arrest of the South Carolina cop who shot Walter Scott, will deter future shootings by police officers.

 
Utility companies sending folks home here as rioting is breaking out. Not sure why the rioting, really, other than "because they can". The cops arrested a murderer. Isn't that what you want?
Rioters never want to miss an opportunity to get free stuff, ya know.

 
re Cincy:

It looked like the victim was both getting out of the car AND starting the starting the car at the same time. Am I seeing that wrong? I wonder what his intention was. Either way, he didn't deserve to be shot in his dome.
Looked like he was pulling the door closed. The cop was probably trying to open the door when the guy put it in gear. That was just a cold blooded execution. The other issue was that this cop lied on police reports and said that he was being dragged by the car before shooting. The idiot fell on his own ### from firing his gun
Lets not forget that he tore his pants when he fell, and suffered a couple of bruises...

 

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