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Anyone hear Clayton on Espn a min ago? (1 Viewer)

Now Mortensen is saying Kubiak will be the Texans' coach and that he loves Carr. Go figure. This is going to be a long few months.

 
If only a team had the balls to say look, we have a SUPREME athlete here, who happens to be able to throw the ball pretty well.Pretty well might such in the NFL, though.But, tell me this:If Vince Young lined up at HB, TE, Flanker, WR, QB - with Carr ON the field, please tell me how you defend it.Pitch to Young - will he run, or is it a set roll out pass. Screen to Young - will he step back and throw, or is it a straight screen.He can get plenty of QB work in, and ALSO us his great ability to run. I don't see how you would really stop such a weapon, used in different ways.But, they will try to make him a drop back QB to fit the "NFL Mold" and will miss out on what makes this guy truly special.

 
I think part of what separates people so much on this issue is that the opinions about Carr and DD are vastly different vs what people want to focus on. For example.

About Carr, one can notice things like:

* He's been sacked an ungodly amount of times.

* He hasn't been the best about eluding the rush.

* He had a pathetic season this year where he didn't have a pass for 50 yards until the next to last game of the year.

Or, one can notice things like:

* He only has 1 WR who can consistently get open.

* Playing behind that horrible line last year he was still top 12 in passing yards and 16th in QB rating.

* He's pretty accurate and has a good arm.

* He's fast afoot (though not so much in the elusive sense).

* His coaching staff couldn't get the line to pass block effectively.

* His coaching staff seldom made good adjustments or had a game plan that exposed a weakness in the opposition.

With Domanic Davis the same is true to a lesser extent. People can vastly differ on how good DD is. Some see him as being in perhaps the 2nd highest tier of RB talent, while others see him as being middle of the road, and some lower.

Then there are people's views of the lines. And while I've given views of both sides above showing how there's positives and negatives, I think this one is more of an absolute. And since people time and again get this wrong, let me spell it out. THE O-LINE CANNOT PASS BLOCK, BUT THEY ARE A TOP 10 RUN BLOCKING UNIT.

Read that again. THE O-LINE IS A TOP 10 RUN BLOCKING UNIT. If you don't believe me, go look at the average yards per carry amongst all teams. Go look at the rushing stats the the backup RBs have put up when Davis isn't in there. So please, let's put an end to the people talking about how silly it is to get Bush to run behind a line that can't block for him.

It is true though that how they block for the QB is a major issue in Houston. Without a doubt Houston has to improve their pass protection. Now whichever way you view Carr, and DD, I'd tend to think that Gary Kubiak could do a lot to improve the offense on this team even not counting personnel changes.

I personally tend to think Carr has the ability to be a good NFL QB if they get some good coaching in there, and give him some pass protection and someone besides AJ to throw to. Since I think Bush can help in that because he's so versatile in his ability to split out wide, I would tend to think he goes further to addressing the problems than Young would. Now some of course think Carr is trash, and if that's the case, yeah you'd say we should take Young. But as I pointed out at the top, there's a lot of plusses and minuses both to Carr, and it is far from a given that he won't be a good NFL QB (just as it is far from a certainty that he'll be a Pro Bowler some day).
Excellent.
 
I don't think Carr is trash. I just think VY has more upside...similar to how some feel that Bush has more upside than Davis. Unless you believe Carr will be better than Young's potential (and I doubt it....Carr hasn't shown an ability to lead), then you draft Young.I don't know what is making folks think we will be a competitive team next year.

 
I don't think Carr is trash. I just think VY has more upside...similar to how some feel that Bush has more upside than Davis. Unless you believe Carr will be better than Young's potential (and I doubt it....Carr hasn't shown an ability to lead), then you draft Young.

I don't know what is making folks think we will be a competitive team next year.
Parity rules the day in the NFL these days. There have been some extreme make overs in short order in recent years, adding to the idea that a team can be horrific one year and contend the next.The Texans have a few pieces - I think they could come together rather quickly if they play their cards right.

 
So, if the Texans get get out of their own way and they actually get some talent on the O line, then perhaps Carr 2006 = Brees 2005.Maybe Vince Young should be chatting with Philip Rivers to see how that's working out for him.

 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around

Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.

 
Here's what the Texans SHOULD do (not necessarily what they will do). 1. Trade David Carr. A team like Miami or New York Jets would probably have interest in trading an early second rounder for him. 2. Draft Vince Young. He will be a fan favorite and he can not only put butts in the seat but he will make the best of the bad o-line.3. Draft offensive linemen in the second and third round. The tackles aren't horrible but getting quality guards and a center is extremely important. Also take a hard look at the tightends available. 4. Sign a veteran QB. A proven player like Jon Kitna or Jeff Garcia could really help Young's development. They should probably start the first half of the season and let Young step in once he's had some time to learn, similar to Eli/Warner in NY.5. Sign offensive linemen. Jeff Backus, Jon Runyan, Steve Hutchinson, Tom Nutten, and Toniu Fonoti are all unrestricted free agents this year IIRC.Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, and Jonathan Wells are pretty good RBs, so give them the opportunity to show that.

 
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Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around
Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.
Which is why he'd be perfect in Tennessee. THe "problems" you point out could be interchanged for Steve McNair's predraft notes many years ago.
 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around
Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.
Young, Bush and Leinhart all have questions. It's a crapshot any way you go....
 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."
I agree with that writer.:(I think it'll take time for Young to develop, and anyone drafting him in the top-5 expecting production in year one will be sorely disappointed. For fantasy purposes, I think he could be a 150-200 YPG passer (with better numbers sometimes depending on his sitch) who occasionally gets you 50-75 rush yards and a smattering of TDs with alot of INTs and fumbles. Hmmm, sounds a lot like a certain Vick guy.
 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around
Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.
Which is why he'd be perfect in Tennessee. THe "problems" you point out could be interchanged for Steve McNair's predraft notes many years ago.
Colin,As you probably know from previous discussions, I don't necessarily share the viewpoint of these scouts referenced.

The great thing from an NFL perspective is they don't have to guess, they will get to put him through the paces in private workouts and we will know whether he a) has great arm strength, b) can make all the requisite throws, c) takes to 3- and 5-step drop instructional.

It wouldn't shock me if he looks very raw during workouts and, thus, no longer is considered a viable top 2-3 option. But it also wouldn't shock me if he spends the next two months working on nothing BUT mechanics and wows the scouts in predraft workouts.

Time will tell, but I'm rooting for the kid.

 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around
Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.
Alex Smith came out of much the same college offense and he's struggled with these same things.
 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around
Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.
Alex Smith came out of much the same college offense and he's struggled with these same things.
I was under the impression that Alex Smith was struggling with the size of the ball, having no pass-blocking, no receivers, and marginal runners behind him.Who'd'a'thunk?

 
to learn, similar to Eli/Warner in NY.

5. Sign offensive linemen. Jeff Backus, Jon Runyan, Steve Hutchinson, Tom Nutten, and Toniu Fonoti are all unrestricted free agents this year IIRC.
Given Funoti's ever expanding waistline, he could play both guard and center for them. Two birds with one stone.
 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around
Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.
Young, Bush and Leinhart all have questions. It's a crapshot any way you go....
There are questions and then there are questions. Bush and Leinart all came up in the pro offensive set. They're familiar with and used to the mechanics of it. The only question about them is whether they can turn their game up that extra notch. Young doesn't even know these mechanics, so he has to learn them before demonstrating that he can apply them at the highest level. That's a pretty tall order that would seem to require years to fill if at all.

 
There are questions and then there are questions. Bush and Leinart all came up in the pro offensive set. They're familiar with and used to the mechanics of it. The only question about them is whether they can turn their game up that extra notch.Young doesn't even know these mechanics, so he has to learn them before demonstrating that he can apply them at the highest level. That's a pretty tall order that would seem to require years to fill if at all.
I do not entirely agree with this statement.Colin
 
There are questions and then there are questions. Bush and Leinart all came up in the pro offensive set. They're familiar with and used to the mechanics of it. The only question about them is whether they can turn their game up that extra notch.

Young doesn't even know these mechanics, so he has to learn them before demonstrating that he can apply them at the highest level. That's a pretty tall order that would seem to require years to fill if at all.
I do not entirely agree with this statement.Colin
I don't know that I'd agree ENTIRELY, but there's definitely some truth there that there aren't multiple seasons worth of game tape on him to study and see how he does.Young seems to have the higher upside between he and Leinart, but Leinart is probably more proven in the style of game that they are going to see in the NFL. People talk a lot about Young's poise and leadership and rightfully so. But I also think it's something both players have, as evidenced by how many times USC has come back this year, and the media reports about how unflappable the USC team has been in the locker room at half even when trailing.

I think any way you look at it though, what a enviable situation for the Texans to be in of having to decide which of three fantastic prospects to go after, rather than being in the 49ers situation last year. I think whichever way the Texans go, they win if the guy they pick lives up anywhere near his potential.

 
Adding more fuel to the debate...Sporting News' Matt Hayes cited an AFC scout that "Young initially might be evaluated as a top five pick but that predraft workouts could expose his flaws and drop his grade--he's nowhere near ready to play at the NFL level. He made huge strides as a passer this season but has no experience as a QB in a pro-style formation."

Another scout, according to Hayes says..."He's running a shotgun set now that he'll probably use 20 percent of the time in this league."

Other points from the article:

Young hasn't been exposed to turning his back to the defense during a play-action fake then turning and reading a defense

There's a huge difference between taking a shotgun snap and watching the defense develop and recognizing a defense with a presnap read, turning your back and then having everything change before you turn back around
Young lacks velocity on certaint throws
He won't have 4 or 5 seconds to find a receiver in the NFL as he does in college :shrug:

I think we all need to be patient [i know, it's hard] and see how Young, Leinert, Bush, et al... perform. You know one or two won't live up to their immense billing, and a few guys will perform so well they'll vault into the top 5 mix.
Which is why he'd be perfect in Tennessee. THe "problems" you point out could be interchanged for Steve McNair's predraft notes many years ago.
Colin,As you probably know from previous discussions, I don't necessarily share the viewpoint of these scouts referenced.

The great thing from an NFL perspective is they don't have to guess, they will get to put him through the paces in private workouts and we will know whether he a) has great arm strength, b) can make all the requisite throws, c) takes to 3- and 5-step drop instructional.

It wouldn't shock me if he looks very raw during workouts and, thus, no longer is considered a viable top 2-3 option. But it also wouldn't shock me if he spends the next two months working on nothing BUT mechanics and wows the scouts in predraft workouts.

Time will tell, but I'm rooting for the kid.
Wood, read back through your 2 above posts. In the first post, the scouts cite reading a defense after the play action fake, velocity, and ability to quickly go through the progression. But only 1 of those -- arm strength -- is going to be illuminated in his workouts with NFL teams. That's one of the reasons I see Leinart and Young as being a lot closer as prospects, and a reason I think we continue to hear that a lot of NFL people have them even or Leinart higher. You can go to game tape and see Leinart displaying those abilities. Short of setting up a 22 man scrimmage for Young to play in during his workout, you just aren't going to get an accurate read on his biggest question marks.
 
I love how people talk about "upside" and base it entirely upon athleticism to the exclusion of any other consideration. Just because Michael Vick is likely the most athletic guy to ever play the QB position in the NFL doesn't mean that he necessarily has the highest "upside". Mount Everest (or K-2 IIRC) is the tallest mountain in the world, but you still have to climb it to get to the top.

 

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