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AOC: Capitalism is not a redeemable system for us (1 Viewer)

ANDY SERWER: It's an interesting perspective. You self-identify as a Democratic socialist and have called capitalism irredeemable, I believe. But what does that really mean? And does that mean capitalism should be eliminated? And are your views compatible with capitalism?

ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I believe that in a broad sense-- because when we toss out these big words, capitalism, socialism, they get sensationalized. And people translate them into meaning things that perhaps they don't mean. So to me, capitalism at its core, what we're talking about when we talk about that is the absolute pursuit of profit at all human, environmental, and social cost. That is what we're really discussing.

And what we're also discussing is the ability for a very small group of actual capitalists, and that is people who have so much money that their money makes money and they don't have to work, and they can control industry, they can control our energy sources, they can control our labor, they can control massive markets, that they dictate and can capture governments, and they it can essentially have power over the many. And to me, that is not a redeemable system for us to be able to participate in for the prosperity and peace for the vast majority of people.
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I disagree pretty strongly with her solutions. But as far as pinpointing problems, she may have a point.

It’s something many of us have been thinking about for a long time. If we reach a point of technological advancement when there are too many people and not enough jobs (because automation is cheaper than employees) can the free market sustain itself? Or do we need to tinker with it to a greater extent than we ever have? 

 
General Malaise said:
Do Marjorie Taylor Green and Lorena Bobert next and aren't you Canadian?  
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Not sure what the hell this means, but as far as the topic at hand AOC is extremely misguided.  There is no doubt in my mind that regulated capitalism is the best form of economic governance in the world.  It’s the rising tide that raises all boats.  Any honest study of recent world history can conclude nothing less. She is dead wrong on this, and she needs to be rebuked by Republicans and Democrats alike.

 
ekbeats said:
Not sure what the hell this means, but as far as the topic at hand AOC is extremely misguided.  There is no doubt in my mind that regulated capitalism is the best form of economic governance in the world.  It’s the rising tide that raises all boats.  Any honest study of recent world history can conclude nothing less. She is dead wrong on this, and she needs to be rebuked by Republicans and Democrats alike.
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Agreed. But I would note that while most moderate and liberal Democrats believe in regulated capitalism, most Republicans seem to always fight against it, and conservative legislation always seems to be focused on repealing whatever regulations are already in place. 

 
timschochet said:
Agreed. But I would note that while most moderate and liberal Democrats believe in regulated capitalism, most Republicans seem to always fight against it, and conservative legislation always seems to be focused on repealing whatever regulations are already in place. 
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Not sure what you mean.  If you can provide examples it would help.  But I’m glad we agree on the basic premise that free market, regulated Capitalism is the best form of economic governance.  That is such an important agreement.  AOC is not nearly as smart as she thinks, and it’s a big problem.

 
ekbeats said:
Not sure what you mean.  If you can provide examples it would help.  But I’m glad we agree on the basic premise that free market, regulated Capitalism is the best form of economic governance.  That is such an important agreement.  AOC is not nearly as smart as she thinks, and it’s a big problem.
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Well, during the Trump administration, aside from tax cuts and the wall, nearly every Republican legislative proposal involved some form of deregulation. 
Not saying that’s always bad: certainly with a Covid it helped us a great deal. But if you study the politics of the last 50 years, you find that Republicans are ALWAYS for less regulation, while Democrats are always for more. 

 
timschochet said:
Well, during the Trump administration, aside from tax cuts and the wall, nearly every Republican legislative proposal involved some form of deregulation. 
Not saying that’s always bad: certainly with a Covid it helped us a great deal. But if you study the politics of the last 50 years, you find that Republicans are ALWAYS for less regulation, while Democrats are always for more. 
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I agree.  But as respects AOC and her infantile beliefs about Capitalism, I’d posit that she’s way off base and in need of rebuke from both Parties.  As much as I’m concerned about Trump’s ignorance, I’m equally concerned about AOC’s ignorance.

 
ekbeats said:
Not sure what the hell this means, but as far as the topic at hand AOC is extremely misguided.  There is no doubt in my mind that regulated capitalism is the best form of economic governance in the world.  It’s the rising tide that raises all boats.  Any honest study of recent world history can conclude nothing less. She is dead wrong on this, and she needs to be rebuked by Republicans and Democrats alike.
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I didn't ask you.  

But extremes are dumb to waste thought on.  Carry on if you feel the need to scream into the internet about your issues with the world but again, I didn't ask you a gosh darn thing. 

 
AOC is like the gal who dates a guy and then wants to change everything about him, making others think, "Why are you even dating him?"  She seems to dislike so much about this country that it makes you want wonder she stays here (not really though, a$ I am $ure mo$t of u$ can gue$$ the rea$on). 

 
Not that I feel the need to defend Capitalism, but here it goes… The freedom to pursue economic gain is a good thing.  It spurs innovation, it promotes the progression of human advancement.  Capitalism is the ultimate expression of freedom.  It allocates reward upon those who are e bold enough to place risk,  if you believe in freedom you believe in Capitalism.  What is more important and what is more justified than economic freedom?  I’d there any more important thing for us to strive for?  My God if we do one thing right in the next 20 years, let’s do right by the conviction of Adam Smith’s principle that the free market is undeniably the most just form of economic equality in America today.  
 

 
The General said:
Pure capitalism just like anything needs to be checked…all the time. I think this is her point.
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That's not what she said or meant at all. She literally said capitalism is not redeemable.  Stop making excuses for her.

This is the future of your party. This contingent grows in size every election on your side.  There are plenty of us that have been beating this drum for years now, and yet you guys keep propping it up and pooh-poohing it and continue to make excuses for it like you're doing it now.   Attempting to change what she actually meant somehow make it more palatable and innocuous.

Between the growing problem in your party with the more far-left extremist growing in size and the social justice Warrior movement as the new religion, I think you're in for a rude awakening.

 
chet said:
Leave them for another day.  I have passports from the USA, Canada and the UK--so the answer to your question is yes, and I am also American.
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She's not worth your time.  She's a counter balance to the extreme right.  Why waste the keystrokes?  

 
ekbeats said:
Not that I feel the need to defend Capitalism, but here it goes… The freedom to pursue economic gain is a good thing.  It spurs innovation, it promotes the progression of human advancement.  Capitalism is the ultimate expression of freedom.  It allocates reward upon those who are e bold enough to place risk,  if you believe in freedom you believe in Capitalism.  What is more important and what is more justified than economic freedom?  I’d there any more important thing for us to strive for?  My God if we do one thing right in the next 20 years, let’s do right by the conviction of Adam Smith’s principle that the free market is undeniably the most just form of economic equality in America today.  
 
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This country was built on the back of slave labor and was stolen from others.  Capitalism here is built on a foundation of immorality.  It's a leg up from horrendous practice.  You like capitalism as it exists today, you won't admit it's immoral.  

 
General Malaise said:
I didn't ask you.  

But extremes are dumb to waste thought on.  Carry on if you feel the need to scream into the internet about your issues with the world but again, I didn't ask you a gosh darn thing. 
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TBH  I have no idea about what you are saying.   I do wish to work through our thoughts on this this though.  I legit value your opinion on this.  What do you think?  What is the best way out of this?

 
General Malaise said:
This country was built on the back of slave labor and was stolen from others.  Capitalism here is built on a foundation of immorality.  It's a leg up from horrendous practice.  You like capitalism as it exists today, you won't admit it's immoral.
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Sounds like every country on the face of the planet. Should we just give it all back to the cavemen?

The history of the world is people taking s*** from other people.  

 
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BladeRunner said:
That's not what she said or meant at all. She literally said capitalism is not redeemable.  Stop making excuses for her.

This is the future of your party. This contingent grows in size every election on your side.  There are plenty of us that have been beating this drum for years now, and yet you guys keep propping it up and pooh-poohing it and continue to make excuses for it like you're doing it now.   Attempting to change what she actually meant somehow make it more palatable and innocuous.

Between the growing problem in your party with the more far-left extremist growing in size and the social justice Warrior movement as the new religion, I think you're in for a rude awakening.
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We’ll see if she is the future of the Dem party. She’s one member of Congress who is like catnip for clickbait news. 

This was the quote in the article: 

'To me, capitalism at its core, what we're talking about when we talk about that, is the absolute pursuit of profit at all human, environmental, and social cost.
They can control our labor. They can control massive markets that they dictate and can capture governments and they can essentially have power over the many. And to me that is not a redeemable system for us to be able to participate in for the prosperity and peace for the vast majority of people.

It is a small group that is of privatized control over what we eat and how we fuel our society.“

 
General Malaise said:
This country was built on the back of slave labor and was stolen from others.  Capitalism here is built on a foundation of immorality.  It's a leg up from horrendous practice.  You like capitalism as it exists today, you won't admit it's immoral.  
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This is why the PSF is considered very much to the left. Ask your average American whether he agrees with this -- or who said it -- and you wouldn't be surprised if it were Trotsky or Lenin or Chairman Mao. 

What a reductive revisionist view of American history. 

 
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BladeRunner said:
Sounds like every country on the face of the planet. Should we just give it all back to the cavemen?

The history of the world is people taking s*** from other people.  
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Agreed, but then you need to understand that black people, native Americans, Mexicans who had land stolen from them, Asians who were sold into slavery here to build railroads, etc etc etc etc are sort of forced to see it the same way you do and I think that's pretty awful.  

We both agree that our country was taken from others and largely enhanced by slavery. Instead of just saying "that's the way the world works" maybe try and consider the point of view of others?  

Is that asking too much?  

 
rockaction said:
This is why the PSF is considered very much to the left. Ask your average American whether he agrees with this -- or who said it -- and you wouldn't be surprised if it were Trotzky or Lenin or Chairman Mao. 

What a reductive revisionist view of American history. 
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I want to hear more about his conviction.  There are plenty of good arguments that Capitalism is immoral.  I used to believe that in college   I don’t profess to know all the answers,  GM is a good dude and I respect his opinions.  I want to hear more on it.

 
I also think what she's saying is that our capitalism in practice is irredeemable. But she is a democratic socialist, which means she presumably agrees that all forms of capitalism are unethical and unjust. It's not too large a leap to extrapolate that from her. 

 
rockaction said:
This is why the PSF is considered very much to the left. Ask your average American whether he agrees with this -- or who said it -- and you wouldn't be surprised if it were Trotsky or Lenin or Chairman Mao. 

What a reductive revisionist view of American history. 
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Fun Fact:

General Malaise does not represent the left in this forum or anywhere else.

 
rockaction said:
This is why the PSF is considered very much to the left. Ask your average American whether he agrees with this -- or who said it -- and you wouldn't be surprised if it were Trotsky or Lenin or Chairman Mao. 

What a reductive revisionist view of American history. 
Click to expand...


General Mao please. 

 
The General said:
We’ll see if she is the future of the Dem party. She’s one member of Congress who is like catnip for clickbait news. 

This was the quote in the article: 

'To me, capitalism at its core, what we're talking about when we talk about that, is the absolute pursuit of profit at all human, environmental, and social cost.
They can control our labor. They can control massive markets that they dictate and can capture governments and they can essentially have power over the many. And to me that is not a redeemable system for us to be able to participate in for the prosperity and peace for the vast majority of people.

It is a small group that is of privatized control over what we eat and how we fuel our society.“
Click to expand...
You're right.  It sounds like what she really wants is regulation.

But this is a favorite progressive move.  You redefine something as a tangent of what it actually is.  "What I call Capitalism..."  No.  Capitalism has a clear definition and AOC shouldn't be re-defining it in 2022.  

Say "I have a problem with the lack of regulation in our current capitalist system."

When you play the word games to stir the pot--you deserve the backlash for creating the headline in the 1st place.

 
Unless you're talking about General Tso's chicken. Then you can't be calling it Chairman Tso. 

I could be missing a big joke here. 

But if I'm playing it straight -- it's Chairman Mao. 

 
General Malaise said:
This country was built on the back of slave labor and was stolen from others.  Capitalism here is built on a foundation of immorality.  It's a leg up from horrendous practice.  You like capitalism as it exists today, you won't admit it's immoral.  
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Some of it was built on slave labor. Some of it was stolen. But some of it was built on free labor, and most of the wealth is the result of the innovations of immigrants. 
This country’s history, including that of capitalism, is neither immoral nor moral. It has elements of both. There is both much great good and great evil in our past; it’s important to acknowledge all of it. 

 
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