Justin McCarthy
Footballguy
I'm a new member here, and recently I've been considering how to compare players who played before 1960 in the NFL and AAFC (potentially) to players of since then, as pro football reference's approximate value is only for seasons since 1960, and from what I've seen, it's because the last stat that gets factored into AV for players is sacks for defensive players, listed for players since 1960, and every other stat was recorded at some point before then.
First for players who debuted before 1960, I looked at players who were in the top 250 in AV and the ranges of 116-87 who debuted before 1960 to calculate numbers for the offensive players, and for the defensive players, most of them played the majority of their careers in the AV era, so I used their average AV and applied them to their seasons before 1960, but 2 of the players I looked at, Doug Atkins and Joe Fortunato, had their AV year seasons at less than 50% of their pre-AV seasons, but I calculated Doug Atkins as he didn't start all the time and I got a good number out of it, but I didn't for Joe Fortunato as he was a starter in his 5 pre-AV seasons, and I didn't want to apply his average from 7 seasons to his pre-AV years as I thought the numbers would be too high and it might not make sense for him as he was only a pro bowler once.
Secondly, I looked at other players who debuted before 1960 who could be some of the best of all time using the Pro Football Hall of Fame's All-Decade Teams, MVP award winners, statistical bonuses in PFR's Hall of Fame Monitor method, the 3 NFL Anniversary Teams, and Hall of Famers, and I chose the players who I think I could calculate AVs for, applying to quarterbacks, halfbacks, tailbacks, fullbacks, wide receivers/ends, one tight end, offensive linemen, two linebackers, and one defensive back. The skill position players I'll only calculate value for if they debuted in 1932 or later or had the majority of their career in 1932 or later as that's when yardage, pass attempts, and rushing attempts stats are available. For the defensive players, I can use what I did the first time for, but for the offensive linemen, they get value added from All-Pro teams and Pro Bowls, and there was no Pro Bowl or equivalent game from 1920-1937 and 1943-1949, so one of the questions I want answered is if the current method should be used or the method should be modified and how for offensive linemen in those years. For players who are acknowledged for being two way, playing both offense and defense, I don't know if I should only count them for offense if they're only listed with an offensive position, and if I should count any of them for defense whether they're listed as a position or not. This applies to players who played an offensive and defensive position in a season like Chuck Bednarik, who was both a linebacker and center for several seasons. Lastly, for offense, punting stats are only available after 1939, field goals attempted are only available after 1938, and turnovers are only available after 1932, so I want to know how offenses should be calculated in those years or if they should be calculated at all because the stats weren't available.
I don't know if this is the best idea because I've heard that approximate value is not the best method to use for comparing players across positions and eras, and if AV was even made with equivalents for pre-1960 in mind, but I'd like to hear what anyone who sees this thinks. I wanted to ask these questions because the first 2 quarterbacks for me, Y.A. Tittle and Bobby Layne, were easy, but the next quarterback is Sammy Baugh, who has been called a two-way player and his first two years had no punting stats and field goals attempted in his first year, and I don't wanna give up hope on this project just yet as Sammy Baugh has the passing stats, but the teams had incomplete offenses, so I don't necessarily want to average his numbers from 1939 to 1952 and apply them to his first 2 seasons when his passing stats are complete for all of his career, but if you guys think that's what I should do, and the same for other players if the majority of their seasons are 1939 and afterwards, then that's what I'll do. If you guys are also interested in seeing the players I'm considering, then I'll post them in a list for you, sorted by position.
First for players who debuted before 1960, I looked at players who were in the top 250 in AV and the ranges of 116-87 who debuted before 1960 to calculate numbers for the offensive players, and for the defensive players, most of them played the majority of their careers in the AV era, so I used their average AV and applied them to their seasons before 1960, but 2 of the players I looked at, Doug Atkins and Joe Fortunato, had their AV year seasons at less than 50% of their pre-AV seasons, but I calculated Doug Atkins as he didn't start all the time and I got a good number out of it, but I didn't for Joe Fortunato as he was a starter in his 5 pre-AV seasons, and I didn't want to apply his average from 7 seasons to his pre-AV years as I thought the numbers would be too high and it might not make sense for him as he was only a pro bowler once.
Secondly, I looked at other players who debuted before 1960 who could be some of the best of all time using the Pro Football Hall of Fame's All-Decade Teams, MVP award winners, statistical bonuses in PFR's Hall of Fame Monitor method, the 3 NFL Anniversary Teams, and Hall of Famers, and I chose the players who I think I could calculate AVs for, applying to quarterbacks, halfbacks, tailbacks, fullbacks, wide receivers/ends, one tight end, offensive linemen, two linebackers, and one defensive back. The skill position players I'll only calculate value for if they debuted in 1932 or later or had the majority of their career in 1932 or later as that's when yardage, pass attempts, and rushing attempts stats are available. For the defensive players, I can use what I did the first time for, but for the offensive linemen, they get value added from All-Pro teams and Pro Bowls, and there was no Pro Bowl or equivalent game from 1920-1937 and 1943-1949, so one of the questions I want answered is if the current method should be used or the method should be modified and how for offensive linemen in those years. For players who are acknowledged for being two way, playing both offense and defense, I don't know if I should only count them for offense if they're only listed with an offensive position, and if I should count any of them for defense whether they're listed as a position or not. This applies to players who played an offensive and defensive position in a season like Chuck Bednarik, who was both a linebacker and center for several seasons. Lastly, for offense, punting stats are only available after 1939, field goals attempted are only available after 1938, and turnovers are only available after 1932, so I want to know how offenses should be calculated in those years or if they should be calculated at all because the stats weren't available.
I don't know if this is the best idea because I've heard that approximate value is not the best method to use for comparing players across positions and eras, and if AV was even made with equivalents for pre-1960 in mind, but I'd like to hear what anyone who sees this thinks. I wanted to ask these questions because the first 2 quarterbacks for me, Y.A. Tittle and Bobby Layne, were easy, but the next quarterback is Sammy Baugh, who has been called a two-way player and his first two years had no punting stats and field goals attempted in his first year, and I don't wanna give up hope on this project just yet as Sammy Baugh has the passing stats, but the teams had incomplete offenses, so I don't necessarily want to average his numbers from 1939 to 1952 and apply them to his first 2 seasons when his passing stats are complete for all of his career, but if you guys think that's what I should do, and the same for other players if the majority of their seasons are 1939 and afterwards, then that's what I'll do. If you guys are also interested in seeing the players I'm considering, then I'll post them in a list for you, sorted by position.
He had a story of a guy being traded in game and back after the game. Some debates if casts are legal- not playing with a broken arm as a debate but if the cast should be allowed.
