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Assani's Poker Thread (4 Viewers)

bostonfred said:
Have you read Jeff Hwang's book on PLO? I think it's the best poker book I've read.
I actually know Jeff personally, as we've tried to organize live PLO games at Wynn and Venetian before. I do have his book, and have read through it 2 or 3 times. With that said, I think its far from the best poker book around. I think it does have some value, most of which comes from the fact that he does an excellent job of explaining why hands(both preflop and postflop) have the value they do, he writes clearly and in an easy-to-read style, and I have no doubt that his advice could teach someone to beat soft live PLO games where a lot of opponents are open-limping, playing way too many hands, and playing way too passively in general.

However, I think his advice is way too weak tight for the aggressive online games of today. I can't confidently speak about his PLO advice since I'm relatively new to the game(at least by online standards), but almost every higher stakes online reg I've encountered agrees with this, and I can indeed confidently say that about the PLO8 section of his book. His advice basically breaks down to: play premium hands, be patient, let your opponents play badly and take advantage of it. To me it very clearly seems aimed at live play or online play from 3+ years ago. I have doubts that his book would be useful at anything higher than $.25/.5 online, as you simply won't be very difficult for tougher players to play against using his style.

I've also read Rolf Slotboom's book, which I place in a similar category: Solid advice for beating ridiculously easily live games where all your opponents are horrible at poker, but just not nearly aggressive enough advice to beat tougher online games. I'm heavily considering buying LearnedFromTV's book.
Good to know. You can probably disregard anything else I've said in the thread then.
Eh, you still have a very good poker mind, so I'm always interested in your thoughts. I'm headed out to pick up my car from autoshop now, but I'll take a look and respond to all your comments when I get back.

edited to add: Also I was perhaps too harsh on his book. I do want to stress that for live players it is very helpful, and it really is great at explaining the reasoning behind why one type of hand(both preflop and postflop) can be good while a hand that looks similar may be bad. I definitely think it helped me, and I'm glad I read it.

 
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I couldn't get away an had to read your analysis before I left, haha.

Yeah I think you're underestimating how much the PLO games(and most poker games) online have evolved. Most people learned the "basic" strategies that I think Jeff's book teaches a few years ago and have since adjusted to be more aggro and run over those using such a strategy. I've gone so far as to say that I think its near impossible for someone to be really good at poker without putting in a significant volume of online hands within the past ~2 years....theres simply been so much improvement and progress made that you're missing out on. To give you an example, in PLO8, if there were fish in the blinds, then I would be raising 90+% of my buttons....clearly 90+% of preflop hands contain a ton of hands that Jeff would say would "get me in trouble postflop".

Like I said, I do think you're a good poker mind, so I definitely want to continue to get your feedback....maybe just try to have a constant mindset that in these online hands I'll need to be more aggro than you've previously believed, good players will be more aggro than you imagine, and the really good players can be quite tricky postflop. And also I may be showing my arrogance in telling you what I think is right and assuming I know what I'm talking about....as I get more feedback about these hands I'll keep what you said in mind and will definitely be willing to reconsider....after all, being tight is never that bad of a thing with 6+ players, as its not like the blinds are going to eat you up that much. I raise hands like KQJ7ds UTG because 100% of big time winning online players raise that in that spot, but until I'm more comfortable postflop it may be better for me to play ultra tight and keep my postflop decisions easier.

 
Dr. Bronner said:
bostonfred said:
Truck is a big PLO guy and there are a couple others who play regularly.
I play mostly PLO8, the couple times I've dipped my toe into PLO the results were laughably bad. And I haven't put in any serious time in months.That said, I do know that the level of play in PLO seems to be mostly awful, and learning the game is probably a good move. You can only go so far playing HU PLO8, for the reasons Assani mentioned.GL AF. :goodposting: Have you considered playing FTP instead of Stars? It seems like FT's main benefit (27% RB) is more suited to players who might change the frequency of their play. I know that PS requires you to play hard through the year if you want to hit the big bonuses.
Eh, the level of PLO play has improved a ton in recent years....definitely not "awful". I'd be quite happy if I could turn myself into a 5+BB/100 winner at $1/2 for now, and anything above that would be gravy.I don't get rakeback on FT(had it, my affiliate was my roommate who stole money from me and bailed on me when we moved to Vegas) and they refuse to give it to me when I email and ask.
 
I didn't play yesterday, but I played a short 3 hour session on Saturday night. I keep running well. Was quickly up $1300 within an hour, but lost a bit of it back. Ended up +$600 for the session...have now ran $2000 up to $12000 in the 5 or 6 sessions since I came back to playing live....poker is so much more fun when you're running well! Not a ton of interesting hands except for this one....Villain is a typical tight live player....not all that good, makes some very clear mistakes, but hes tight enough that I don't really love having him at the table either. Hes probably a break even player at live $5/10. I haven't played with him before this session though, so I'm basing all of this off of only a short while of play alongside him. I'm on button with 35 of clubs. 3 limpers ahead of me, I decide to limp as well. SB completes, BB checks. 6 to the flop.Flop comes 47J with 2 clubs, giving me a flush draw and a gutshot. SB, BB, and first limper check. Villain bets full pot of $60, next limper calls, its on me. Whats your move here?I called. SB called, BB folded, first limper folded. So now theres 4 players still in the hand and theres $300 in the pot.Turn is a 2 of clubs(note: the four is a not one of the clubs, so I do not have a straight flush draw). All 3 players check to me. I bet $180(is this too small considering that I hate any club coming on the river? I probably would've bet more if I wasn't in position, but being in position makes my river play a lot easier so I don't mind keeping it a bit cheaper).SB folded, villain mini-raises to $360, LP folds. Villain has about $900 left in his stack now. Whats your move?
so what happened?
haha, I think I folded but I really don't remember tbh
 
bostonfred said:
This book is designed for playing full ring and to exploit loose-passive live calling stations. A lot of advice in that book is too nitty in more aggressive, online 6max games. The book you suggested is good for starting to learn PLO, but check out his latest if you somewhat have a handle on PLO basics.

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Pot-Limit-O...7817&sr=8-1

 
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It's hard to comment on some of the other hands since heads up hand values are just so different than six max or full ring. I think the big thing I notice is that it seems like you're being a little too aggressive with holdings that are easily dominated. Those happen, and you shouldn't just check/fold them all, but you may want to change your preflop raising strategy with spec hands that are easily dominated so that they don't happen as often. You also seem to be c-betting a lot of weak holdings. Heads up that makes sense but in a pot limit ring game that's trouble. You're building a pot for them to take away from you, and you seem to be willing to protect your c-bets with substandard holdings when raised. If you're having a downswing maybe you should dial back some of the pre and postflop raising because it seems like you're aggressive enough that you'd still get paid off on your made hands.
The $5/10 HU games were quite aggro, and I found myself struggling to keep up with the aggression of some of my opponents. For example most of them were raising 100% of buttons and 3 betting about 10-15% of the time, while I was raising every button but only 3 betting 5-10% of the time as I simply wasn't comfortable building the pot OOP with weaker holdings(especially when we got deeper stacked). I'm not going to worry too much about this now though....too much, too fast....I'm gonna focus on becoming a winner at 6 max $1/2. I'd like to make over $30K at this level(with the insane variance in PLO that could happen in a few months or take years, lol) before I feel comfortable moving up to midstakes, and then after that I'll look to get back into higher stakes HU. I just played these sessions to give myself some sort of idea of how the games change as the players get better.
 
Sorry for making this incredibly general, but are balancing your ranges much of a concern in PLO outside of nuts or air situations. Seems like ranges are so wide and so close in so many spots that it would take very long for someone to figure out spots where you are really unbalanced.

 
Sorry for making this incredibly general, but are balancing your ranges much of a concern in PLO outside of nuts or air situations. Seems like ranges are so wide and so close in so many spots that it would take very long for someone to figure out spots where you are really unbalanced.
Balancing your range isn't nearly as important in PLO as it is in NLHE. In NLHE theres a lot of "leveling" going on where you raise your opponent with complete air a certain amount of time, and you need to find an optimal amount of times to be bluffing and an optimal amount of times to be value betting. In PLO theres much less dry bluffing(on river being the big exception, and also perhaps in situations like when your opponent 3 bets and the flop comes something like 77x and you try to represent the 7). You "balance your ranges" by being willing to get it in lighter basically. You also need to value bet rivers lighter the more you want to bluff them.
 
It's hard to comment on some of the other hands since heads up hand values are just so different than six max or full ring. I think the big thing I notice is that it seems like you're being a little too aggressive with holdings that are easily dominated. Those happen, and you shouldn't just check/fold them all, but you may want to change your preflop raising strategy with spec hands that are easily dominated so that they don't happen as often. You also seem to be c-betting a lot of weak holdings. Heads up that makes sense but in a pot limit ring game that's trouble. You're building a pot for them to take away from you, and you seem to be willing to protect your c-bets with substandard holdings when raised. If you're having a downswing maybe you should dial back some of the pre and postflop raising because it seems like you're aggressive enough that you'd still get paid off on your made hands.
The $5/10 HU games were quite aggro, and I found myself struggling to keep up with the aggression of some of my opponents. For example most of them were raising 100% of buttons and 3 betting about 10-15% of the time, while I was raising every button but only 3 betting 5-10% of the time as I simply wasn't comfortable building the pot OOP with weaker holdings(especially when we got deeper stacked). I'm not going to worry too much about this now though....too much, too fast....I'm gonna focus on becoming a winner at 6 max $1/2. I'd like to make over $30K at this level(with the insane variance in PLO that could happen in a few months or take years, lol) before I feel comfortable moving up to midstakes, and then after that I'll look to get back into higher stakes HU. I just played these sessions to give myself some sort of idea of how the games change as the players get better.
Most of the hands I was talking about were 6 max games, not HU.
 
bostonfred said:
This book is designed for playing full ring and to exploit loose-passive live calling stations. A lot of advice in that book is too nitty in more aggressive, online 6max games. The book you suggested is good for starting to learn PLO, but check out his latest if you somewhat have a handle on PLO basics.

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Pot-Limit-O...7817&sr=8-1
I've got that one too. Also good.
 
Assani Fisher said:
Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $112.55

UTG: $106.40

MP: $161.20

CO: $216.30

BTN: $417.90

Hero (SB): $742.70

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is SB with J:heart: 8:club: T:club: 9:club:

2 folds, CO raises to $7, BTN calls $7, Hero raises to $30, 1 fold, CO calls $23, BTN calls $23

Flop: ($92.00) 2:heart: Q:club: J:diamond: (3 players)

Hero bets $89, CO raises to $186.30 all in, BTN folds, Hero calls $97.30

Turn: ($464.60) 2:spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($464.60) 6:spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $464.60

CO shows K:club: A:heart: Q:diamond: J:spade: (two pair, Queens and Jacks)

Hero shows J:heart: 8:club: T:club: 9:club: (two pair, Jacks and Deuces)

CO wins $461.60

(Rake: $3.00)
Is there any merit to flatting this OOP or is this an auto-3bet?
Assani Fisher said:
Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $364.15

UTG: $1207.45

MP: $38.45

Hero (CO): $337.15

BTN: $363.80

SB: $210.90

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 5:heart: 6:diamond: A:club: 8:club:

UTG raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, 3 folds
Am I a nit, or does this seem pretty loose barring a read? You mentioned UTG's range is going to be a lot of AA**, KK** and I'm assuming the rest are going to be mid-high run type hands. Seems like those hands will put us in bad positions postflop unless we hit a flush draw, or does position overcompensate for these concerns?

 
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.after all, being tight is never that bad of a thing with 6+ players, as its not like the blinds are going to eat you up that much. I raise hands like KQJ7ds UTG because 100% of big time winning online players raise that in that spot, but until I'm more comfortable postflop it may be better for me to play ultra tight and keep my postflop decisions easier.
Not that I have much to add/offer to this conversation, but I really think that this is key here. While you are a tremendous player, you are not yet tremendous of this game. It is likely worthwhile for you to pass on hands that the best players play, but are difficult to play postflop. However, I am not saying don't play it (play ultra-tight), just don't play it every time- take your image, the players behind you, the tempo of the game into account. Pay attention to hands that are harder for you postflop, and avoid them UTG for two-six weeks, unless the situation seems just right.Nice to have you back.
 
bostonfred said:
Poker Stars $3/$6 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

CO: $406.25

BTN: $198.00

SB: $1098.00

BB: $1546.05

UTG: $671.05

Hero (MP): $600.00

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is MP with 6:club: 4:spade: 3:diamond: 5:diamond:

1 fold, Hero raises to $21, 1 fold, BTN calls $21, SB raises to $90, 1 fold, Hero calls $69, BTN calls $69

Flop: ($276.00) 7:club: 3:club: 5:club: (3 players)

SB bets $54, Hero calls $54, BTN folds

Turn: ($384.00) A:diamond: (2 players)

SB bets $381, Hero raises to $456 all in, SB calls $75

River: ($1296.00) 5:spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $1296.00

SB shows T:heart: Q:club: A:club: A:heart: (a full house, Aces full of Fives)

Hero shows 6:club: 4:spade: 3:diamond: 5:diamond: (a full house, Fives full of Threes)

SB wins $1293.00

(Rake: $3.00)

Drawing dead is fun..... I did consider folding preflop due to the threat of shortstack button pushing and reopening the betting. I figured he has AA a large amount of time when he 3 bets OOP into 2 players. And one of those aces is certainly a club when he bets the flop that small(does he ever bet that small with a smaller flush?). I have one club in my hand, which means that one of his two other cards have to be one of the 8 clubs left out of the 42 unknown cards. Shoving AA with the ace of clubs and no other club seems like his only play with that hand, and my 35 blockers take his equity down to 20%. I guess this is pretty much a basic math problem then, although it'd also be interested to calculate without the 35 blockers in my hand.

I'm heavily leaning towards thinking that my play was incredibly standard here, but if anyone feels otherwise I'll listen to reasons why.....

----------------

This is another one where I take issue with your preflop raise. Perfect rundowns are powerful but a 6 high rundown has no high card value so the best flops for it, aside from a straight, are two pair and an OESD, a pair and a 9 card inside wrap, or an A2x flop with a no bust 9 card wheel wrap with a redraw to the 6 high straight. Your two pair hands will always suck beacuse they're low, and your wheel draws will often have the possibility of a broadway wrap on board due to the ace. Hwang talks a little about about this hand:

You can understand why the discussion of straight draws is so important - it tells us what hands we can play to get there. Four perfectly connecting rundown cards such as AKQJ down to JT98 and 9876 have excelletn straight potential. They offer the opportunity to flop the nut straight with a redraw and multiple 13 card straight drraws as well as two pair with an OESD.

The smaller rundowns such as 8765 down to 6543 are more speculative. Note that 6543 is the smallest playable rundown and not 5432.
I think this is a limp/call hand. You don't mind him raising preflop, but you don't want to commit with six high. And that's exactly what ended up happening. You committed to the hand because you put him on a range, but also because you had let the pot get to the point where he could suck you in with a pot building bet on the flop and a full pot on the turn.

There's a range of flops you love - and 3-5-7 is obviously one of them if it's a rainbow - and then a range of flops you like but don't love - and 3-5-7 all clubs is in that latter category. By raising so much preflop, you force yourself to commit to flops whether you like them or love them. Raising less preflop lets you get away from hands like this, or float to see what he does on the turn, or call them down cheaper.
I've been thinking about this, and I don't care how aggro these games are. Raise/calling a six high rundown in PLO from UTG+1 at 100 BB at an aggressive table can't be right. You can call it a balancing play or say that you don't want to open limp with spec hands or whatever, but this is a limp hand preflop. If you open raise to 3.5 BB you give him the chance to repop to 11.5 bb and force yourself to call. That's 15 BB with 85 BB behind. This hand doesn't rate to be a big enough favorite on enough flops that this is a good bet. You're going to be out of position against the CO or button, your one pair hands are worthless, your two pair hands are probably worthless, and most of your draws are to the sucker end so you end up dominated by hands with middle cards or any pair. This isn't a trash hand by any means but it just doesn't have any preflop value. About what percentage of flops do you think you show up as a favorite on? It's got to be less than one in four. And when you are a favorite, you're almost never a huge favorite - Which means most of your equity with this hand has to come from folding equity. Which means you're playing your straight + two pair on a three flush flop for your whole stack.

If this wasn't a pot limit game I'd feel differently. But I think this is a substantial mistake preflop.

 
Do you guys us any sort of software for PLO and PLO8 when playing on-line (such as Poker Tracker)? Which product seems to be the best?

 
Do you guys us any sort of software for PLO and PLO8 when playing on-line (such as Poker Tracker)? Which product seems to be the best?
Holdem Manager is the best. The ability to check the each hands's equity street by street in the popup is extremely helpful, along with the HUD stats.
 
Has anyone played faro? I've sat in a 5/10/25/40 limit forced bet game recently and it's a fascinating game. Five cards, played just like omaha 8 (two from your hand, three from the flop/turn/river, same # of rounds, etc.). The big differences are that you ante 1 to get your cards, then the person to the left of the dealer has to decide if they want to play them for 5. It's forced action - you can "call" 5 or fold. You can't check, and you can't raise yourself. Then the second person can call 5, raise to 10, or fold, and it's played out like a limit hand preflop. Then they deal the flop, and the action moves. So if you were the first person to act last time, now the person to your left goes first, and you go last this round. And this time they have to call 10 or fold. Then on the turn and river, it jumps to 25 and 40, respectively. You get some good sized pots - it costs a minimum of 80 to see a hand down, and it's a hi lo split so you get a lot of action and a lot of chasing. The movement of the forced action is huge because if someone misses their lo draw on the river they might fold instead of playing the 40, so the guy who is last to act on the river can not only win, but scoop a pot without showing down. And the second to last guy has an interesting decision about how light he's willing to go to get the last guy off the hand. Another interesting twist is that the hand valuations can get crazy - you can have a five card rundown (although that's also known as a straight and they don't happen that often), or a four card rundown and a pair, or two pair and a three card rundown, or a hand like AA223ds. But he ante forces you to play a wider variety of hands, so PFRs are much more meaningful. I've run well in it so far but I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts if they'v eplayed.

 
PLO Hi

I hold Ac2c8h5h on the button. There's a couple limpers ahead of me, so I limp and see a cheap flop. The players to my left are loose, and the two players directly to my right are absolute rocks. Flop comes 88K with two clubs. It checks around to me, I pot, and to my surprise the only caller is the player to my right. The turn comes 4 of clubs, giving me top trips and the nut flush. The player to my right checks. Check or fire? We are deep - maybe 200bb - and there's maybe 36bb in the pot already.

 
bostonfred said:
PLO HiI hold Ac2c8h5h on the button. There's a couple limpers ahead of me, so I limp and see a cheap flop. The players to my left are loose, and the two players directly to my right are absolute rocks. Flop comes 88K with two clubs. It checks around to me, I pot, and to my surprise the only caller is the player to my right. The turn comes 4 of clubs, giving me top trips and the nut flush. The player to my right checks. Check or fire? We are deep - maybe 200bb - and there's maybe 36bb in the pot already.
I doubt he checks with KK or 8K so I would bet 1/2 the pot. I think he has a worse 8.
 
If I could hijack for just a moment. Posted this on a poker site but would love to hear from the few big poker minds on here as well. Sorry for the huge post its just the hand histories.

Was interested in hearing opinion on how I could play these two hands better.

For this first hand my thinking was I did not want to reraise only to be met with a flop like I did and feel like I have to bluff off my chips. At this stage people are getting fairly short compared to the blinds as well so I figured by flatting that the big blind might see this as a good opportunity to three bet steal which my plan would have been to shove or call his shove. Interested in thoughts on if thats a decent line to take or do I pretty much always have to put in the three bet here?

PokerStars Game #53024970820: Tournament #340011086, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2010/11/20 23:38:42 ET

Table '340011086 24' 9-max Seat #6 is the button

Seat 1: pokertaxman (19543 in chips)

Seat 2: chubbybubby (14686 in chips)

Seat 3: AAA MARTIN (15255 in chips)

Seat 4: rkstyle25 (17433 in chips)

Seat 5: Butano (6395 in chips)

Seat 6: mlbnfl1 (14122 in chips)

Seat 8: CrazyXX (11075 in chips)

Seat 9: claunchc (12378 in chips)

pokertaxman: posts the ante 25

chubbybubby: posts the ante 25

AAA MARTIN: posts the ante 25

rkstyle25: posts the ante 25

Butano: posts the ante 25

mlbnfl1: posts the ante 25

CrazyXX: posts the ante 25

claunchc: posts the ante 25

CrazyXX: posts small blind 150

claunchc: posts big blind 300

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to mlbnfl1 [Kh As]

pokertaxman: folds

chubbybubby: raises 300 to 600

AAA MARTIN: folds

rkstyle25: folds

Butano: folds

mlbnfl1: calls 600

CrazyXX: folds

claunchc: folds

*** FLOP *** [7h 9c 8c]

chubbybubby: bets 900

Hotlanta3129 is connected

mlbnfl1: folds

Uncalled bet (900) returned to chubbybubby

chubbybubby collected 1850 from pot

chubbybubby: doesn't show hand

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 1850 | Rake 0

Board [7h 9c 8c]

Seat 1: pokertaxman folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 2: chubbybubby collected (1850)

Seat 3: AAA MARTIN folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: rkstyle25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 5: Butano folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 6: mlbnfl1 (button) folded on the Flop

Seat 8: CrazyXX (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 9: claunchc (big blind) folded before Flop

Next hand was unfortunately my last hand. Figured flat calling was not an option at all. Think my 3bet size may have been too large but interested in hearing thoughts on that (perhaps if I had raised less I could get away easier?). My initial thought was to fold since a 4bet shove in that spot looks so strong but after thinking for a min I kinda convinced myself it was pretty risky to flat call the raise with a huge pair there even though my initial impulse was to muck and that he would perhaps take this line with a mid pair since I had 3bet stolen a few pots on this table prior. Just that I had put a decent bit in and obviously if I win the pot I am set fairly nicely but I feel like I will probably be told that was a really terrible spot to put it in.

PokerStars Game #53025203844: Tournament #340011086, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2010/11/20 23:47:19 ET

Table '340011086 24' 9-max Seat #7 is the button

Seat 1: pokertaxman (18793 in chips)

Seat 2: chubbybubby (14586 in chips)

Seat 3: AAA MARTIN (14655 in chips)

Seat 4: rkstyle25 (18158 in chips)

Seat 5: Butano (6570 in chips)

Seat 6: mlbnfl1 (12622 in chips)

Seat 7: Hotlanta3129 (12123 in chips)

Seat 8: CrazyXX (10225 in chips)

Seat 9: claunchc (12903 in chips)

pokertaxman: posts the ante 50

chubbybubby: posts the ante 50

AAA MARTIN: posts the ante 50

rkstyle25: posts the ante 50

Butano: posts the ante 50

mlbnfl1: posts the ante 50

Hotlanta3129: posts the ante 50

CrazyXX: posts the ante 50

claunchc: posts the ante 50

CrazyXX: posts small blind 200

claunchc: posts big blind 400

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to mlbnfl1 [Ac Qd]

pokertaxman: raises 400 to 800

chubbybubby: calls 800

AAA MARTIN: folds

rkstyle25: folds

Butano: calls 800

mlbnfl1: raises 2400 to 3200

Hotlanta3129: folds

CrazyXX: folds

claunchc: folds

pokertaxman: folds

chubbybubby: raises 11336 to 14536 and is all-in

Butano: folds

mlbnfl1: calls 9372 and is all-in

Uncalled bet (1964) returned to chubbybubby

*** FLOP *** [9h 2h 4h]

*** TURN *** [9h 2h 4h] [Js]

*** RIVER *** [9h 2h 4h Js] [3h]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

chubbybubby: shows [Kh Kc] (a flush, King high)

mlbnfl1: shows [Ac Qd] (high card Ace)

chubbybubby collected 27794 from pot

mlbnfl1 finished the tournament in 363rd place

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 27794 | Rake 0

Board [9h 2h 4h Js 3h]

Seat 1: pokertaxman folded before Flop

Seat 2: chubbybubby showed [Kh Kc] and won (27794) with a flush, King high

Seat 3: AAA MARTIN folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: rkstyle25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 5: Butano folded before Flop

Seat 6: mlbnfl1 showed [Ac Qd] and lost with high card Ace

Seat 7: Hotlanta3129 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 8: CrazyXX (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 9: claunchc (big blind) folded before Flop

Would love to hear any thoughts on anything about how I played the hands or my though process behind it. Thanks in advance.

 
1) Hand one I 3-bet PF 100% of the time. As played, I can't quibble with folding unless it's an ultra-loose player.

2) Hand two you played fine.

 
PLO HiI hold Ac2c8h5h on the button. There's a couple limpers ahead of me, so I limp and see a cheap flop. The players to my left are loose, and the two players directly to my right are absolute rocks. Flop comes 88K with two clubs. It checks around to me, I pot, and to my surprise the only caller is the player to my right. The turn comes 4 of clubs, giving me top trips and the nut flush. The player to my right checks. Check or fire? We are deep - maybe 200bb - and there's maybe 36bb in the pot already.
based on our read, i'd bet-fold the turn and i'm betting half pot or however much i think he'll call with KcXc or a bare 8, whichever is larger. also assuming he's incapable of bluff raising us on the turn or river and he is not likely to value betting worse on the river. if the limpers 100+ BB deep, i'm raising the button here.
 
Hand 1:

I'd need a pretty strong read that both the blinds like to squeeze a lot to call looking to backraise. Also, you aren't forced into cbetting any flop. So if you don't think you are getting many folds, don't cbet as a bluff.

Hand 2:

Really need a read on UTG here to have any idea if this is good or not.

 
1) Hand one I 3-bet PF 100% of the time. As played, I can't quibble with folding unless it's an ultra-loose player.2) Hand two you played fine.
Thanks for the responses guys. I hear you I normally would 3bet 100% of the time too, just one of those times where the sixth sense kicked in and I felt like it would get a blind to steal. Obviously a risky play I probably should not have taken but I can learn from my mistakes at least, hopefully.
 
mlbnfl said:
Dr. Bronner said:
1) Hand one I 3-bet PF 100% of the time. As played, I can't quibble with folding unless it's an ultra-loose player.2) Hand two you played fine.
Thanks for the responses guys. I hear you I normally would 3bet 100% of the time too, just one of those times where the sixth sense kicked in and I felt like it would get a blind to steal. Obviously a risky play I probably should not have taken but I can learn from my mistakes at least, hopefully.
Midway into a tournament, limps and small raises from early position players always set my alarm bells off. Smooth calling a raise from UTG is similar. It's really hard for that guy to reraise without scaring off all of his action. In either case, if the guy's been doing it a lot it's one thing but if this is something relatively new for him then I tend to think he's trying to get action for a big hand. That doesn't mean I won't raise with premium hands, but it does mean that I tend to give him more credit for having something if he four bets. 4x the bet is not that big a raise - it's about a half pot raise - but it defines where you are in the hand. But if he shoves, what do you put him on that you can beat or are a coinflip against? AJ? JJ/TT/99? Suited connectors gone loco? How often do you think these hands show up? I think you're well behind his range when you make this call, so it really comes down to your tournament standing if you call/fold. With 11 grand behind you'll be a little low for your table but nobody will have double your stack so you'll still be a threat. You'll have an M of about 10. It's not great, but it's livable. If you win this pot, you'll be the big stack at the table, but not by much. You'll have some play money with which to make some blind steals and you'll be able to threaten anyone with their tournament life but you'll still be cripplable by any all in confrontation. It's a decent spot to be in but I'm not sure your tournament EV goes up by as much when you win this hand as it goes down when you lose it. I'm kind of leaning towards raise then fold, absent any read.
 
mlbnfl said:
Dr. Bronner said:
1) Hand one I 3-bet PF 100% of the time. As played, I can't quibble with folding unless it's an ultra-loose player.2) Hand two you played fine.
Thanks for the responses guys. I hear you I normally would 3bet 100% of the time too, just one of those times where the sixth sense kicked in and I felt like it would get a blind to steal. Obviously a risky play I probably should not have taken but I can learn from my mistakes at least, hopefully.
Midway into a tournament, limps and small raises from early position players always set my alarm bells off. Smooth calling a raise from UTG is similar. It's really hard for that guy to reraise without scaring off all of his action. In either case, if the guy's been doing it a lot it's one thing but if this is something relatively new for him then I tend to think he's trying to get action for a big hand. That doesn't mean I won't raise with premium hands, but it does mean that I tend to give him more credit for having something if he four bets. 4x the bet is not that big a raise - it's about a half pot raise - but it defines where you are in the hand. But if he shoves, what do you put him on that you can beat or are a coinflip against? AJ? JJ/TT/99? Suited connectors gone loco? How often do you think these hands show up? I think you're well behind his range when you make this call, so it really comes down to your tournament standing if you call/fold. With 11 grand behind you'll be a little low for your table but nobody will have double your stack so you'll still be a threat. You'll have an M of about 10. It's not great, but it's livable. If you win this pot, you'll be the big stack at the table, but not by much. You'll have some play money with which to make some blind steals and you'll be able to threaten anyone with their tournament life but you'll still be cripplable by any all in confrontation. It's a decent spot to be in but I'm not sure your tournament EV goes up by as much when you win this hand as it goes down when you lose it. I'm kind of leaning towards raise then fold, absent any read.
Truth be told I didnt have much of a read on him. Like I said my initial reaction was to fold easy but I sat there and kinda convinced myself he might take this line with a middish pair because I had been fairly active. That said, like you said those are probably at the very bottom of his range if at all.
 
But this hand is about the preflop and flop play, not the river. Why are you raising preflop from UTG with KQJ7, even if it's double suited? That seems like a trouble hand, and you're building a bigger pot with it. You don't have an ace. If you flop either flush, you're never sure where you are unless the ace of hearts is on board or the ace king of spades. You have only three to a straight, and your dangler is low enough that it's nothing but trouble. This is a trashy hand.
Because I'm very very inexperienced at plo and working on limit o8, I often refer to propokertools for preflop hand rankings (method). Yes, it's hot-and-cold simulations and has those drawbacks (eg, how you get the money in postflop matters a lot). But their method evolves the rankings over numerous generations and offers a more absolute scale than typical point-count systems. FWIW, on a scale of 1-100, 7JQKds ranks about top 10%, dropping to 66th percentile if it's badugi (that's what the cool kids are calling rainbow these days).

Again, I'm very very inexperienced in omaha and we should consider the players behind us and in the blinds when making preflop decisions and understand that omaha hands run a lot closer in value than holdem hands, but opening a top 10% hand in the hijack can't really be trashy, can it?

 
But this hand is about the preflop and flop play, not the river. Why are you raising preflop from UTG with KQJ7, even if it's double suited? That seems like a trouble hand, and you're building a bigger pot with it. You don't have an ace. If you flop either flush, you're never sure where you are unless the ace of hearts is on board or the ace king of spades. You have only three to a straight, and your dangler is low enough that it's nothing but trouble. This is a trashy hand.
Because I'm very very inexperienced at plo and working on limit o8, I often refer to propokertools for preflop hand rankings (method). Yes, it's hot-and-cold simulations and has those drawbacks (eg, how you get the money in postflop matters a lot). But their method evolves the rankings over numerous generations and offers a more absolute scale than typical point-count systems. FWIW, on a scale of 1-100, 7JQKds ranks about top 10%, dropping to 66th percentile if it's badugi (that's what the cool kids are calling rainbow these days).

Again, I'm very very inexperienced in omaha and we should consider the players behind us and in the blinds when making preflop decisions and understand that omaha hands run a lot closer in value than holdem hands, but opening a top 10% hand in the hijack can't really be trashy, can it?
It's the omaha equivalent of KT. It can hit some flops hard - it might even get you broadway or a pretty broadway draw if you flop lucky - but it's easily dominated. Let's say the flop is AT6, and you have KQJ7 against KQJT or AKQJ, for example. They're freerolling you to a seven. There aren't many flops where it's an easy hand to bet, and of the hands that will give you action on the flops you hit hard, you're generally a coinflip or dog. I've withdrawn my objection to this hand, though, in favor of my objection to open raising from UTG with 6543 in a 6 handed game.
 
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Another hand question. Three way action against two rocks. We'll call it a limit omaha 8 game but it was actually faro.

Preflop I have QcJcTh9h in MP. The action is capped preflop with the button and CO, both of whom are ridiculously tight.

The flop is KQJ rainbow with a heart and a club. Action to me first. I bet the second nut straight with two pair. I get called by one of the nittier rocks. The other one is even tighter and raises. I decide float the single bet to see a turn card. The other rock calls.

At this point, I put the guy who called twice on top set, and the other guy on broadway. I'm behind, but have two backdoor flush draws, and my queen may be live if he has bottom set, although I doubt it.

The turn is the four of hearts, giving me a ten high backdoor flush draw. Two checks to me, and I bet. Both of them just call. I didn't expect either of them to drop here, but I needed to bet if I'm going to represent broadway on the river.

The river is the seven of hearts, completing your runner runner flush. What's your action? I think you can eliminate check/raise, because neither is likely to bet without a flush. Do you lead out? Check/call?

 
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Another hand question. Three way action against two rocks. We'll call it a limit omaha 8 game but it was actually faro. Preflop I have QcJcTh9h in MP. The action is capped preflop with the button and CO, both of whom are ridiculously tight. The flop is KQJ rainbow with a heart and a club. Action to me first. I bet the second nut straight with two pair. I get called by one of the nittier rocks. The other one is even tighter and raises. I decide float the single bet to see a turn card. The other rock calls. At this point, I put the guy who called twice on top set, and the other guy on broadway. I'm behind, but have two backdoor flush draws, and my queen may be live if he has bottom set, although I doubt it. The turn is the four of hearts, giving me a ten high backdoor flush draw. Two checks to me, and I bet. Both of them just call. I didn't expect either of them to drop here, but I needed to bet if I'm going to represent broadway on the river. The river is the seven of hearts, completing your runner runner flush. What's your action? I think you can eliminate check/raise, because neither is likely to bet without a flush. Do you lead out? Check/call?
I think you lead out. The pot is too large for broadway to fold, and you may get the CO who you put on top set to call since the turn and river shouldn't have helped much. If you are raised it is an easy fold as you are out flushed since neither of them showed any aggression since the flop.
 
I did lead out. And got called by set guy, while broadway guy folded.

Their actual hands:

KsKhThx for top set, the broadway draw, and the king high flush. (I don't remember what x was but it wasn't an ace).

AJJT for broadway and bottom set, but no flush.

Broadway guy didn't bet the turn because he thought I had AT with nut hearts. Top set guy was worried about the same thing.

That seems a bit tight for a limit game, but far be it from me to argue.

 
But this hand is about the preflop and flop play, not the river. Why are you raising preflop from UTG with KQJ7, even if it's double suited? That seems like a trouble hand, and you're building a bigger pot with it. You don't have an ace. If you flop either flush, you're never sure where you are unless the ace of hearts is on board or the ace king of spades. You have only three to a straight, and your dangler is low enough that it's nothing but trouble. This is a trashy hand.
Because I'm very very inexperienced at plo and working on limit o8, I often refer to propokertools for preflop hand rankings (method). Yes, it's hot-and-cold simulations and has those drawbacks (eg, how you get the money in postflop matters a lot). But their method evolves the rankings over numerous generations and offers a more absolute scale than typical point-count systems. FWIW, on a scale of 1-100, 7JQKds ranks about top 10%, dropping to 66th percentile if it's badugi (that's what the cool kids are calling rainbow these days).

Again, I'm very very inexperienced in omaha and we should consider the players behind us and in the blinds when making preflop decisions and understand that omaha hands run a lot closer in value than holdem hands, but opening a top 10% hand in the hijack can't really be trashy, can it?
It's the omaha equivalent of KT. It can hit some flops hard - it might even get you broadway or a pretty broadway draw if you flop lucky - but it's easily dominated. Let's say the flop is AT6, and you have KQJ7 against KQJT or AKQJ, for example. They're freerolling you to a seven. There aren't many flops where it's an easy hand to bet, and of the hands that will give you action on the flops you hit hard, you're generally a coinflip or dog. I've withdrawn my objection to this hand, though, in favor of my objection to open raising from UTG with 6543 in a 6 handed game.
KQJ7ds is going to hit a lot of flops, which is why it is in the top 10% hot and cold, but it rarely makes the nuts. OOP hands that flop well, but aren't very nutty can sometimes be difficult to play. Now if the games are really aggro, where flopping top 2 + 2 backdoor flush draws, or making a K, Q, or J hi flush is effectively the nuts, this hand is much easier to play and a clear open UTG. Similarly, if we are playing weaker players who are not putting pressure on us, this is an open.

 
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Very good answer VoR.

Munga - in a tough ten handed game, let's say you're opening with KQJ7, and someone else only opens with hands like KQJT or AKQJ. When you hit a flop, like AT6, you have a nine card inside wrap for broadway. They have a nine card inside wrap plus a pair. They're free rolling against you, because there's virtually no card you can hit that's good news. If you have a king high flush draw to go with it, and they have an ace high flush draw to go with theirs, again, they're free rolling you, and you're sitting there thinking you have a 15 card wrap. If the flop comes JT9, and you have the nut straight, AKQx is freerolling against you. The key in PLO - more so than limit - is that when you're shoving all your money in there, there's a good chance it's nut vs nut, or nut vs draw. And that comes up a lot because you have four cards, and people play cards that are coordinated. When it's nut vs nut, every dollar that goes in is contested by the redraws. When it's nut vs draw, every dollar of equity you have in the pot is contested by the quality of your draw. Hands with danglers like that 7 are handicapped by the fact that they have one fewer card with which to make up a redraw, so they rarely hit as hard as another hand. About the only flop where KQJ7 is really psyched is on a KK7 flop with six redraw outs to a better boat.

One of the things I really liked about Hwang's book on PLO - which has very good limit Omaha and O8 sections - is that he walks through the starting hand structures and explains why a hand like 8753 is a better spec hand than KQJ7, because it can hit a 64x flop for a 16 card nut wrap, and a flop like 642 in particular gives you the nuts with a 13 card redraw to a bigger nut straight. One of the things he suggests is the Perfect Flop Test - picture your dream flop for the hand you have right now. Maybe 89T? Now, is there a hand you'd much rather have on that same flop? How about AKQJ? Or if you hit KKQ on the flop. Is there a hand you'd much rather have? How about AKQ with a redraw to a bigger boat? If you can never flop a hand that you'd be totally 100% comfortable going from zero to all in on the flop, then it's probably not a great hand for a longball game where you limp in, see a lot of cheap flops, then fold if you miss or jam if you hit hard.

As VoR mentions, and as Assani said earlier, not every game will let you see cheap flops like that. If people are 3betting preflop with weaker hands, then the odds that you're up against a monster when the money goes in are much smaller, because the lower postflop SPRs mean that people have to commit with weaker hands if they want to win the larger preflop pot. So hands win on their hand strength more often, and being up against dominating hands like AKQJ or KQJT happens less often because other people are raising with KQJ7 type hands of their own.

Which brings us to the conversation where we talked about 6543 from EP in an aggressive six handed game. Potting preflop puts your SPR in the shove or fold range. But a 6 high perfect rundown doesn't hit enough flops hard to shove one in four times. If you don't catch two babies, you're going to have to shove with hands like bottom pair and a gutshot, or nut straight draw on a flushing board, baby flush, or the sucker end of the straight. Your bluff equity plus your equity in contested hands postflop isn't enough to justify putting in a sixth of your stack preflop with six high imo. So maybe it's a limp/call hand, which would let you get a postflop SPR closer to 10. Or possibly even an open fold spec hand. It's the pocket deuces or 45 suited of the omaha world.

 
Played in a $350 event that the horseshoe in council bluffs last weekend.

Most boring tournament ever.

No interesting hands, I played well until i got completely cold decked.

I think this might be one of the last live tournaments i play in. the tournament appeared to have very generous levels and a blind structure (30 minute blinds at first, then 40 minutes after 8 levels) but all that evaporated when it seemed like almost every hand was taking 2-4 minutes to play because of ante stacking, posturing by players thinking that they were playing in the GD $10,000 main event, and dealers who just didn't give a crap about dealing a tidy game.

The second pokerstars comes back with good tournaments I would love to start playing again. Until then I just don't enjoy the game like i used to. I just prefer online poker. I've never like cash NL games and for tournament play the speed of the online format is crucial. the 15 min blind levels on pokerstars are like one hour levels live... not to mention i miss the rebuy format.

come back pokerstars!

 
That's a great/insane hero call. River situations in PLO8 when the low bricks are always really interesting to me, and provide a good opportunity for a skilled player (in my case, being OK whereas my opponents are often mediocre) to make a lot of money. Would you consider 3-betting the river there?

 
Seems like as good as any place to put in this non-sequitur.

About 18 months ago, while spending some time in Houston, I got into some big big games. On days three and four, I was in the biggest cash game I have ever seen outside of a casino-ultimately it evolved into a 500-1000 with frequent 2000 live straddles. It was crazy. I was only invited because I had unseen amazing luck on days 1 and 2 in a large (but smaller) game which had me flush. I was seen as ripe for the picking- which, frankly, against these people, I was. Anyway, luck carried me through, as I ran into more positive variance in those four days than I have ever seen. Think Varkoni in the WSOP variance. The final results were literally life changing.

I haven't played much since, as I don't want to think of that money as bankroll- but retirement. Still, thanks to Assani, bostonfred, VoR, munga, Maurile, icon, chet, pre, and the many,many others who have continued to teach me much about the game over the years.

 
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'rabidfireweasel said:
Seems like as good as any place to put in this non-sequitur.About 18 months ago, while spending some time in Houston, I got into some big big games. On days three and four, I was in the biggest cash game I have ever seen outside of a casino-ultimately it evolved into a 500-1000 with frequent 2000 live straddles. It was crazy. I was only invited because I had unseen amazing luck on days 1 and 2 in a large (but smaller) game which had me flush. I was seen as ripe for the picking- which, frankly, against these people, I was. Anyway, luck carried me through, as I ran into more positive variance in those four days than I have ever seen. Think Varkoni in the WSOP variance. The final results were literally life changing. I haven't played much since, as I don't want to think of that money as bankroll- but retirement. Still, thanks to Assani, bostonfred, VoR, munga, Maurile, icon, chet, pre, and the many,many others who have continued to teach me much about the game over the years.
sounds like a nice score, congrats
 
'rabidfireweasel said:
Seems like as good as any place to put in this non-sequitur.About 18 months ago, while spending some time in Houston, I got into some big big games. On days three and four, I was in the biggest cash game I have ever seen outside of a casino-ultimately it evolved into a 500-1000 with frequent 2000 live straddles. It was crazy. I was only invited because I had unseen amazing luck on days 1 and 2 in a large (but smaller) game which had me flush. I was seen as ripe for the picking- which, frankly, against these people, I was. Anyway, luck carried me through, as I ran into more positive variance in those four days than I have ever seen. Think Varkoni in the WSOP variance. The final results were literally life changing. I haven't played much since, as I don't want to think of that money as bankroll- but retirement. Still, thanks to Assani, bostonfred, VoR, munga, Maurile, icon, chet, pre, and the many,many others who have continued to teach me much about the game over the years.
Awesome. Give us a sense as to the size of the score.
 

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