Apple Jack
Footballguy
Considering the jobs that result in five of the six wealthiest counties in the country are just south, its surprising more people don't leave.
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Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gary Coal Man
- Start date
The_Man
Footballguy
From 2000 until 2010:
Detroit -25%
Cleveland -17%
Pittsburgh -8.5%
Baltimore -4.6%
Baltimore did better than some of its Rust Belt brethren.
The_Man
Footballguy
One of the things absolutely choking Baltimore City is its exorbitant property tax rate. It is more than twice as high as any of its neighboring jurisdictions. And guess what? Those jurisdictions are all great places to live - Anne Arundel County on the Chesapeake, Howard County in the DC suburbs, Baltimore County with beautiful horse country and easy access to downtown.
You can get a $300,000 mortgage in Baltimore County and have the same monthly payment you would on a $200,000 City mortgage because of the tax rate. Unfortunately, the City's tax rate has to be so high because the value of the tax base is so low.
Add to that the bad to terrible public schools and it suddenly becomes a huge burden to try raising a family within the city limits. You're paying a huge tax bill, and on top of it you're probably paying private school tuition. At that point, you pick up and move to Towson where you're still 15 minutes from downtown, but you live in a beautiful neighborhood and send your kids to an amazing school for free. In Baltimore County the income tax rate hasn't gone up in 25 years and the property tax rate hasn't gone up in 27.
That gets back to that Slate article I posted yesterday. There can be a phenomenally high and inexpensive quality of life here - as long as you have the wherewithal to get outside the city limits. The question is if that's ok with everyone who flees, or if it's worth trying to repair life in the city. Or do we just enjoy our good life, and be sure to stay east of MLK Blvd?
You can get a $300,000 mortgage in Baltimore County and have the same monthly payment you would on a $200,000 City mortgage because of the tax rate. Unfortunately, the City's tax rate has to be so high because the value of the tax base is so low.
Add to that the bad to terrible public schools and it suddenly becomes a huge burden to try raising a family within the city limits. You're paying a huge tax bill, and on top of it you're probably paying private school tuition. At that point, you pick up and move to Towson where you're still 15 minutes from downtown, but you live in a beautiful neighborhood and send your kids to an amazing school for free. In Baltimore County the income tax rate hasn't gone up in 25 years and the property tax rate hasn't gone up in 27.
That gets back to that Slate article I posted yesterday. There can be a phenomenally high and inexpensive quality of life here - as long as you have the wherewithal to get outside the city limits. The question is if that's ok with everyone who flees, or if it's worth trying to repair life in the city. Or do we just enjoy our good life, and be sure to stay east of MLK Blvd?
rockaction
Footballguy
I understand the point, but it also happens to be within driving distance of the nation's capital. Comparing those traditional Rust Belt cities to Baltimore is inapt. It's an Eastern seaport city. I also don't accept the terms of the debate that Baltimore is part of the traditional Rust Belt. Wiki doesn't think so, most don't think so. Some do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt
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rockaction
Footballguy
I cited the property rate taxes, comparison, and hikes (21 since 1980) back in the thread. That was my argument: that's on Baltimore.
Many of us have also talked about the terrible ratio of school expenditures to performance. I pointed out that MD and Baltimore have very strict laws promoting public teacher's unions (not passing right-to-work laws which is a national trend, to making teachers pay mandatory union fees, etc.) and passing laws that leave Baltimore with some of the most restrictive school choice options in the country.
A four percent loss is also a lot when you consider the skyrocketing populations of the other cities up and along the Eastern part of the United States, often coming in at four percent gains or more. Alexandria, VA gained over six percent from 2010-2013 alone, probably admittedly due to the explosion of government and its proximity to DC.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Federal and other government employment has been on steady decline over the last several years, both in real numbers and relative to the private sector. The latter link is from this article in The Atlantic dated August 3, 2012 and titled "We Now Have Our Smallest Government in 45 Years."
Here's the numbers for feds dating back to 1962 and through 2014, showing a drop of almost 300,000 overall (over 100,000 civilian) between 2010 and 2014.
Maybe quit while you're behind?
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rockaction
Footballguy
I appreciate your posting, so I don't mean to harp. But this is part of my point, which I've sort of been talking about in both my links to articles (which I would highly recommend people read, of course) and my rebuttal to Bottomsports. Why is the value of the tax base so low?
a) tax rates in the first place - it's cyclical - people leave areas with high property tax and income tax rates
b) restrictive zoning laws and onerous requirements to start businesses
c) crime - this is a huge factor
d) school performance and quality
e) the shrinking population influencing policy since the '70s - there's nobody to tax
f) mismanagement of federal funds and public boondoggle projects, including political corruption and graft
There are more, I'm sure, but Baltimore -- and Maryland, which has to be factored in -- has all of these in droves.
rockaction
Footballguy
That's simply a ratio. The number of government employees increaed from about 17,500 in 1988 to around 22,000 in 2012 (in millions).
Dude, you're awfully dismissive for someone who keeps reading policy wrong in this thread. Might wanna watch your tone.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2013/01/24/the-growth-of-the-federal-government-1980-to-2012/
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Apparently quitting while behind is not your thing..
First of all, you said the population of Alexandria "gained over 6% from 2010-2013 alone, probably admittedly due to the explosion of government and its proximity to DC." Those are your words. You are attempting to connect the 6% jump from 2010-2013 to the "explosion of government," yes? Seems like a pretty common sense interpretation of your words to me. If so, why would the relevant data be 1988-2012? Wouldn't the relevant data be, oh, I don't know, 2010-2013?
Second, you didn't specify whether you meant federal or state government. Therefore, I provided both@! The last link I provided, which you apparently missed, contains federal government data only.
Since you missed it, here's the numbers for 2010: 2.776,000 federal civilian jobs, 4,443,000 total federal personnel. And here's the numbers for 2013: 2,698,000 federal civilian jobs, 4,231,00 total federal personnel. Declines across the board.
So explain to me again about how the 6% jump in the population of a DC suburb from 2010-2013 was caused by "the explosion of government"?
The_Man
Footballguy
I crossed out the ones I don't believe, that sound more like conservative talking points than real drivers in Baltimore's crippling tax rate that completely hamstrings efforts to bring more affluent people back into the city. But all the others are totally legit - and depressingly, I don't really see a way out of it. It's a total chicken-and-egg thing - tax rates won't go down until more people move back and property values go up. But people won't move back and property values won't increase until taxes (and crime) go down.
And the idea of a regional commuter tax is a total no-go, because people in the suburbs (probably rightfully) have zero confidence that any dollars they pay into Baltimore will be effectively used.
At this point, unless you live in one of the neighborhoods around the Harbor that enable you to walk anywhere you want to go, then
rockaction
Footballguy
Better than those numbers. From the GAO: From 2004 to 2012, the federal non-postal civilian workforce grew by 258,882 employees, from 1.88 million to 2.13 million (14 percent).
http://www.gao.gov/a.../670/660450.pdf
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Cool. What's the data say about 2010-2013, the time frame you specified?
Or are you saying that people moved to Alexandria in 2013 because of jobs that were filled in 2005?
rockaction
Footballguy
The data from 2010-2013 shows a plateau, after an utter explosion in 2007.TobiasFunke said:
Yes, in part. Some people do indeed move to high growth areas based on past performance. And the premise of your argument is also faulty: you fail to mention that the general growth in government adds to a population increase. Lobbyists, federal grants, contractors, the outside actors in the economy, etc. As the size of government control over percentage of the economy increases, so does the population. Explosion in the federal government causing jobs =! solely federal jobs.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2012/03/19/the-expanding-wealth-of-washington/2/
And not only that, if you were to accept your premise about Baltimore and its population, it would actually be worse in Alexandria grew at a six percent rate and didn't have any growth. That would mean people were choosing to move there in droves for no reason other than the quality of living. If you read my post, I'm throwing Baltimore a bone by acknowledging this growth.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You know, you can just admit you were wrong instead of squirming like this. I mean now I've got you arguing that federal government expansion creates private sector jobs, which is just delightful. As much as I'd love to pursue that one, maybe you can just admit that your statement about the cause of Alexandria's recent population growth was not accurate. It's OK. In fact I've admitted saying things that weren't accurate in this very thread. People make mistakes. Go ahead, give it a try! To err is human and all that.
Also, what was my premise about Baltimore and its population?
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Parrothead
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Uh, no. I think you're wrong. An expansion in government doesn't equal solely federal employees. It's just not in the cards.
G
General Tso
Guest
I can't believe there is so much pointless arguing over simple statements made by Rock. His statement about Baltimore's population loss in not at all inaccurate. Of the largest 30 cities in the US, only 2 had higher population percentage drops during the last 15 years - Detroit and Chicago. A 4% loss for Baltimore during the prior 13 years is progress - and an improvement over 5 straight decades of decline - but it's still bad relative to other large cities.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
There are all kinds of degrees of good and bad decisions she could have made. But IMO a preliminary hearing or pre-trial motion which results in dismissed charges, or which elicits evidence such makes any trial a joke, is one of the worst. I hope for Baltimore's sake that all is well and calm and that reform happens no matter what, but if some elements lose it because of her poor decisions then she is going to have some sleepless nights for a long time. Hopefully justice is done one way or the other.timschochet said:
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rockaction
Footballguy
Thanks, Tso.
More for Tobais about jobs and Alexandria, this time from Daily Kos in 2011 via WaPo . http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/17/1007959/-Washington-D-C-s-economy-booms-thanks-to-federal-contracting-dollars#
More than $80 billion in federal contracting dollars will flow to the region this year, up from $4.2 billion in 1980, according to Stephen Fuller, director of the Center for Regional Analysis at George Mason University. Adjusted for inflation, that’s a seven-fold increase. A third of the region’s gross regional product now comes from federal spending.
New York Times, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/washingtons-economic-boom-financed-by-you.html?_r=0
The growth has arrived in something like concentric circles. Increased government spending has bumped up the region’s human capital, drawing other businesses, from technology to medicine to hospitality. Restaurants and bars and yoga studios have cropped up to feed and clothe and stretch all those workers, and people like Jim Abdo have been there to provide the population — which grew by 650,000 between 2000 and 2010 — with two-bedrooms with Wolf ranges.
Washington Post, 2011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-enclaves-reap-rewards-of-contracting-boom-as-federal-dollars-fuel-wealth/2011/06/27/gIQAWQC5HJ_story.html
Last year, with her two sons grown, Talwar and her husband, Madan, moved from Fairfax Station to their sprawling home in Great Falls. They were drawn by the country ambience and friends who lived nearby.When asked if her neighbors had felt the impact of the recession, she smiled quietly and said she didn’t think so.“I think the economy is very different in Washington, D.C., than in the rest of the country because of the federal dollars,” she said. “Directly or indirectly, we all work for the federal government.”
St. Louis Today
The share of money the government spent on weapons and other hardware shrank as service contracts nearly tripled in value. At the peak in 2010, companies based in Rep. James Moran's congressional district in Northern Virginia reaped $43 billion in federal contracts — roughly as much as the state of Texas
Mercatus Center Report, George Mason, 2013, "A Tale of Two Labor Markets"
A Tale of Two Labor Markets
High federal government expenditures in Virginia—which are over double the national average as a percentage of GDP4—boost direct federal government employment in the state. Federal government employees make up over twice as much of Virginia’s labor market as they do of the national labor market (see figure 2). Indirect federal government employment—private nonfarm employment funded by federal contracts—plays an even larger role in Virginia’s labor market. More federal contracts are awarded to firms in Virginia than to firms in any other state, and federal contracts account for over 12 percent of Virginia’s economy, compared to less than 4 percent for the nation as a whole.5Since 2007 the total value of these contracts has risen by 18 percent—from $46.4 billion to $54.8 billion—compared to a 9.3 percent increase in the rest of the country.6As a result, indirect federal government employment likely makes up about 10.6 percent of Virginia’s labor market, over three times more than the national average (see figure 2).7Both direct government and indirect federal government employment in Virginia were higher in 2012 than before the recession.8Combined, direct government employment and indirect federal government employment account for almost 30 percent of jobs in Virginia (see figure 2).
http://mercatus.org/publication/tale-two-labor-markets-government-spendings-impact-virginia
Time magazine, 2012
Why the boom? The size of the nonmilitary, nonpostal federal workforce has stayed relatively stable since the 1960s. What has changed is not the government payroll but the number of government contractors. It’s estimated that, thanks to massive outsourcing over the past 20 years by the Clinton and Bush administrations, there are two government contractors for every worker directly employed by the government. Federal contracting is the region’s great growth industry. A government contractor can even hire contractors for help in getting more government contracts. You could call those guys government-contract contractors.
More for Tobais about jobs and Alexandria, this time from Daily Kos in 2011 via WaPo . http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/17/1007959/-Washington-D-C-s-economy-booms-thanks-to-federal-contracting-dollars#
More than $80 billion in federal contracting dollars will flow to the region this year, up from $4.2 billion in 1980, according to Stephen Fuller, director of the Center for Regional Analysis at George Mason University. Adjusted for inflation, that’s a seven-fold increase. A third of the region’s gross regional product now comes from federal spending.
New York Times, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/washingtons-economic-boom-financed-by-you.html?_r=0
The growth has arrived in something like concentric circles. Increased government spending has bumped up the region’s human capital, drawing other businesses, from technology to medicine to hospitality. Restaurants and bars and yoga studios have cropped up to feed and clothe and stretch all those workers, and people like Jim Abdo have been there to provide the population — which grew by 650,000 between 2000 and 2010 — with two-bedrooms with Wolf ranges.
Washington Post, 2011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-enclaves-reap-rewards-of-contracting-boom-as-federal-dollars-fuel-wealth/2011/06/27/gIQAWQC5HJ_story.html
Last year, with her two sons grown, Talwar and her husband, Madan, moved from Fairfax Station to their sprawling home in Great Falls. They were drawn by the country ambience and friends who lived nearby.When asked if her neighbors had felt the impact of the recession, she smiled quietly and said she didn’t think so.“I think the economy is very different in Washington, D.C., than in the rest of the country because of the federal dollars,” she said. “Directly or indirectly, we all work for the federal government.”
St. Louis Today
The share of money the government spent on weapons and other hardware shrank as service contracts nearly tripled in value. At the peak in 2010, companies based in Rep. James Moran's congressional district in Northern Virginia reaped $43 billion in federal contracts — roughly as much as the state of Texas
Mercatus Center Report, George Mason, 2013, "A Tale of Two Labor Markets"
A Tale of Two Labor Markets
High federal government expenditures in Virginia—which are over double the national average as a percentage of GDP4—boost direct federal government employment in the state. Federal government employees make up over twice as much of Virginia’s labor market as they do of the national labor market (see figure 2). Indirect federal government employment—private nonfarm employment funded by federal contracts—plays an even larger role in Virginia’s labor market. More federal contracts are awarded to firms in Virginia than to firms in any other state, and federal contracts account for over 12 percent of Virginia’s economy, compared to less than 4 percent for the nation as a whole.5Since 2007 the total value of these contracts has risen by 18 percent—from $46.4 billion to $54.8 billion—compared to a 9.3 percent increase in the rest of the country.6As a result, indirect federal government employment likely makes up about 10.6 percent of Virginia’s labor market, over three times more than the national average (see figure 2).7Both direct government and indirect federal government employment in Virginia were higher in 2012 than before the recession.8Combined, direct government employment and indirect federal government employment account for almost 30 percent of jobs in Virginia (see figure 2).
http://mercatus.org/publication/tale-two-labor-markets-government-spendings-impact-virginia
Time magazine, 2012
Why the boom? The size of the nonmilitary, nonpostal federal workforce has stayed relatively stable since the 1960s. What has changed is not the government payroll but the number of government contractors. It’s estimated that, thanks to massive outsourcing over the past 20 years by the Clinton and Bush administrations, there are two government contractors for every worker directly employed by the government. Federal contracting is the region’s great growth industry. A government contractor can even hire contractors for help in getting more government contracts. You could call those guys government-contract contractors.
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I lived about 50 miles outside of Baltimore some 25 years ago.
I'd say that has contributed to my familiarity with the city about a billionth as much as having watched The Wire has.
I'd say that has contributed to my familiarity with the city about a billionth as much as having watched The Wire has.
Clifford
Footballguy
This is all so irrelevant. They arrested him because he was a known offender, hanging on a corner known for drug dealing, and ran. What is of issue is what happened after the arrest and how he died and what role the officers played in his death. If it was willful punishment in the form of not buckling the kid or beating him, then I think manslaughter is the right charge. If it was negligence in the form of not buckling him and or denying him expedient medical treatment then involuntary manslaughter sounds right. She won't be able to prove intent to kill. That's just crazy.ArbyMelt said:
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
High taxes and terrible schools remind me of that line from Animal House, "fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."The_Man said:
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
While making Treme down here David Simon got into some controversy locally by commenting (often IMO rightly) about what ailed NO. It reminds me a lot of this discussion. The charge was that Simon was not from New Orleans, he was new here, essentially an interloper, things here are (we like to think) byzantine and complex, impossible for outsiders to penetrate.timschochet said:
It didn't help him that he waded into political waters by outing our mayor (Landrieu) by telling a story in which the mayor essentially demanded money in the form of contributions from him if he really wanted to see historical structures preserved in one particular neighborhood (which Simon had been speaking on). All of a sudden this guy who had brought so much attention to New Orleans' inner life like he had brought to Baltimore and had been celebrated for it became a hypocritical outsider.
The word that got used and the specific charge that got leveled was that he had "no standing." Personally I thought he was right on so many things, but ultimately he was most right in that it didn't make a damned bit of difference how many hours, minutes, days or years he had logged being an allegedly "authentic" Orleanian.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Here's a thought: what could Baltimore do to bring in (1) more residents from the suburbs and (2) more money from outside the city, into the city?
Here's another question: do the powers that be that control Baltimore really want either (1) or (2) to happen?
(And yes I have no standing to ask those questions).
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rockaction
Footballguy
I would concede that f probably has little to do with tax rates, but then you state the bolded, and I wonder. Why do they have zero confidence that any dollars they pay into Baltimore will be effectively used? Do not corruption, graft, and bloat (which I admittedly did not mention) play a part in that?The_Man said:
As for point b, this is from the City Journal, Fred Siegel, 2001. It's anecdotal, but it's at least relevant to the lack of a tax base within a city. If you can't get the permits or zoning requirements met, you'll be inflexibly dealt with in a city that desperately needs development.
If O’Malley has any hope of jumpstarting Baltimore’s stalled economy, he must start from a crucial premise: the city lost jobs because its business environment is unfriendly in the extreme. The city’s property taxes are the highest in Maryland, for starters. The city bureaucracy also exhibits a hostile attitude toward business interests. In the mid-1990s, to take one example, Baltimore’s biggest law firm, Piper Marbury, looking for new office space to stay in the downtown area, eyed becoming the anchor tenant in one of two new office towers scheduled to go up on land controlled by Baltimore Community College. But political wrangling held up the project, and eventually Piper Marbury fled the city, taking 500 mostly high-paying jobs with it to the suburbs.
Even more telling were efforts to find a new use for the old, city-owned Memorial Stadium, where the Baltimore Orioles played before moving to their spectacular new home in Camden Yards. A team headed by A&R Development proposed converting the stadium area into a research park with office space and promised $45 million in private investment to do the job. Instead, Schmoke and his housing commissioner turned the site over to a nonprofit group that had landed an HUD grant to build senior-citizen housing, even though Baltimore, with its population drain, has a housing surplus. Several neighborhood groups, allowed a say on how to develop the site, weighed in for the nonprofit. One minority community member put it directly: "Give me the skills for one of those high-tech jobs. Then we can talk"—that is, if the jobs are going to be for high-skilled white yuppies rather than unskilled minorities, better no jobs at all. Recently, the state has scuttled the project, sending it back to the drawing board.
A final example: the architecture firm of Whitman, Requardt and Associates began a search for new office space in downtown Baltimore several years ago and settled on a former brownfields site in historic Fells Point, on the edge of the downtown business district. The city had zoned the area strictly, allowing only for a 40-foot-high building. Whitman Requardt requested a variance to build a 54-foot-high building, which would contain the office space it needed. The city’s commissioner of Housing and Community Development turned the firm down. "The city’s bureaucracy is largely uncooperative, and very old in its thinking," complained C. Richard Lortz, Whitman’s managing partner. (The O’Malley administration recently approved a deal that included a $1 million construction loan from the city.) Faced with such anti-business attitudes, Baltimore’s leading companies have expanded in the suburbs instead of in the city. Since the mid-nineties, for example, rapidly growing T. Rowe Price has built five buildings in Owings Mill, Maryland, with 565,000 square feet of office space for 2,200 employees. The Price campus in Owings Mill adds to the nearly 5 million square feet of office space that developers have built in the suburb since the late 1980s, with yet another million square feet scheduled to go up in the near future.
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Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Foreignpolicy.com (great site) provides an interesting look into the Chinese perspective on the Baltimore riot.
Dr Oadi
Footballguy
Such venom. You must be a miserable person. You have my sympathy.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
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G
General Tso
Guest
Geraldo was on Hannity tonight talking Baltimore and he spoke about the breakdown of the family. I know Gerlado is technically a Republican but he is usually pretty Liberal on social matters, so I was a bit surprised to hear him pimping the idea (poor choice of words I know). I also saw a very good article today on the topic that strikes a nice balance between conservative and liberal ideologies. http://www.fresnobee.com/2015/05/06/4511968/francis-barry-baltimores-riots.html
G
General Tso
Guest
I just read Rock's post about Baltimore's unfriendly business climate. I've worked in the insurance industry (commercial, not personal) for the past 25 years and I can say with absolute certainty that the Maryland is the most hostile state in the country from a business insurance standpoint. In March, 2014 I filed a new version of our General Liability product in all 50 states - offering several new additional coverages and enhancements designed to make our product more competitive, and oh, by the way, benefit the policyholder as well. Most states took 30 to 60 days to review the product and approve it. Maryland didn't even acknowledge the filing for 10 months, and it wasn't until I called in our Government Affairs guy and asked him to intercede. After 13 months the filing finally got approved in April.
I have found two consistent themes in working with the Maryland Department of Insurance over the past 25 years - mismanagement and anti-business hostility. I can give a bunch of examples, but it's insurance, and you'd probably fall asleep before finishing it.
I have found two consistent themes in working with the Maryland Department of Insurance over the past 25 years - mismanagement and anti-business hostility. I can give a bunch of examples, but it's insurance, and you'd probably fall asleep before finishing it.
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Jack White
Footballguy
There was a lot of talk in here about whether a knife that Gray was allegedly carrying at the time of his kidnapping was "legal" or not.
Here is Ryan McMaken's take on it:
***************************************************************
[SIZE=14.5pt]The Right to Own and Bear Switchbladeshttps://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-right-to-own-and-bear-switchblades/[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Ryan McMakenhttps://www.lewrockwell.com/author/ryan-mcmaken/?ptype=lrc-blog[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Baltimore police now imply Freddie Gray’s arrest was necessary because he was carrying an illegal knife. But why are taxpayers paying the government to arrest people for carrying knives? What about the right to own and bear knives?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The defense offered by the now-indicted police officers in the Freddie Gray case will likely at least touch on their claim that Gray was carrying an illegal knife. Gray was allegedly carrying a switchblade, which is — apparently — illegal (under federal law, no less). As Steve Chapman notes: “Even if it was, Gray’s possession of the knife wouldn’t justify his being chased and arrested, since the police had no grounds to suspect he had it.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]In any case, we’re left asking ourselves why the state claims for itself the right to confiscate personal property without due process if that property happens to be a spring-loaded knife. In a country where hand guns are pretty easy to come by, a prohibition on knives as an essential safety measure strikes one as absurd, if not laughable. Chapman also writes: “Switchblades are no more lethal than any other knife, and the automatic opening is not likely to make a difference to a criminal intent on mayhem. On the other hand, that feature makes them useful to anyone (say, a handyman or hunter) who needs to open a knife with one hand.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Moreover, thanks to general acceptance of prohibition of yet another type of personal property, one can easily fun afoul of the law while behaving in a perfectly peaceful manner and without even knowing that one is in violation of the law (since common sense would indicate that one is in compliance with the law). For example, one doesn’t need to have an illegal knife to be convicted of having an illegal knife under ambiguous New York lawshttp://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2014/10/nyc-gravity-knife-law-arrests.php?page=all:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]The Sheffield utility knife Neal had in his pocket is the kind of thing sold at hardware and sporting-goods stores all over the city. At the time, that model and ones more or less identical to it were stocked at Auto Zone, Pep Boys, Home Depot, Paragon Sports, and several other reputable hardware and outdoor-gear shops in the five boroughs. It’s the kind of thing your outdoorsy uncle might carry. Today you can buy one on Amazon for less than 15 bucks.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Neal says he didn’t start worrying that night until the officer used the term “gravity knife.” He’d never heard that phrase before. And he really started to worry when the officer explained that his little Sheffield could land him in prison — for years.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Neal ended that night in a squad car. There was only one problem: The knife he was carrying was not a gravity knife. At least, not by most of the world’s definition.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Nonetheless, under the [NYPD’s] unique interpretation of Penal Code 265.01, almost every pocketknife on the market today can be considered a gravity knife…[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]The penalties are severe, too, as Neal would learn. As a prior offender, he was eligible for a felony “bump up,” rendering the pocketknife Neal possessed the legal equivalent of an unlicensed, unloaded pistol. Though the court said he likely had no idea his knife was illegal, and he wasn’t accused of using it toward any nefarious end, he was convicted nonetheless.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]After a series of appeals, he was sentenced to six years in prison.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Needless to say, gravity knives are no more deadly than any other knife, but that doesn’t stop people from landing in prison for years for carrying one, or even carrying a knife that isn’t a gravity knife at all, apparently. As noted herehttps://mises.org/blog/government-police-services-nutshell, many police departments have incentives for officers to harass and arrest citizens for petty infractions such as these.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]UPDATE: reader SP adds some nuance to the legality of these knives:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The federal law only prohibits interstate commerce http://weaponlaws.wikidot.com/federal-switchblade-lawin automatic knives (switchblades). It says nothing about possessing them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]States are left on their own in terms of defining legality for switchblades, as are cities and towns. For example, switchblades are legal to own in many states, but illegal to carry in many localities.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Different from switchblades and gravity knives are many types of “one hand opening” and “assisted opening” knives – popular manufacturers include Spyderco and Kershaw. “Gravity” knives are actually quite uncommon, as most knife users prefer the one hand and assisted opening knives.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Intersetingly, I also see that Oklahoma just legalized switchblades.http://www.news9.com/story/28923573/fallin-signs-bill-legalizing-switchblade-knives-in-oklahoma[/SIZE]
Here is Ryan McMaken's take on it:
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[SIZE=14.5pt]The Right to Own and Bear Switchbladeshttps://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-right-to-own-and-bear-switchblades/[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Ryan McMakenhttps://www.lewrockwell.com/author/ryan-mcmaken/?ptype=lrc-blog[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Baltimore police now imply Freddie Gray’s arrest was necessary because he was carrying an illegal knife. But why are taxpayers paying the government to arrest people for carrying knives? What about the right to own and bear knives?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The defense offered by the now-indicted police officers in the Freddie Gray case will likely at least touch on their claim that Gray was carrying an illegal knife. Gray was allegedly carrying a switchblade, which is — apparently — illegal (under federal law, no less). As Steve Chapman notes: “Even if it was, Gray’s possession of the knife wouldn’t justify his being chased and arrested, since the police had no grounds to suspect he had it.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]In any case, we’re left asking ourselves why the state claims for itself the right to confiscate personal property without due process if that property happens to be a spring-loaded knife. In a country where hand guns are pretty easy to come by, a prohibition on knives as an essential safety measure strikes one as absurd, if not laughable. Chapman also writes: “Switchblades are no more lethal than any other knife, and the automatic opening is not likely to make a difference to a criminal intent on mayhem. On the other hand, that feature makes them useful to anyone (say, a handyman or hunter) who needs to open a knife with one hand.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Moreover, thanks to general acceptance of prohibition of yet another type of personal property, one can easily fun afoul of the law while behaving in a perfectly peaceful manner and without even knowing that one is in violation of the law (since common sense would indicate that one is in compliance with the law). For example, one doesn’t need to have an illegal knife to be convicted of having an illegal knife under ambiguous New York lawshttp://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2014/10/nyc-gravity-knife-law-arrests.php?page=all:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]The Sheffield utility knife Neal had in his pocket is the kind of thing sold at hardware and sporting-goods stores all over the city. At the time, that model and ones more or less identical to it were stocked at Auto Zone, Pep Boys, Home Depot, Paragon Sports, and several other reputable hardware and outdoor-gear shops in the five boroughs. It’s the kind of thing your outdoorsy uncle might carry. Today you can buy one on Amazon for less than 15 bucks.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Neal says he didn’t start worrying that night until the officer used the term “gravity knife.” He’d never heard that phrase before. And he really started to worry when the officer explained that his little Sheffield could land him in prison — for years.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Neal ended that night in a squad car. There was only one problem: The knife he was carrying was not a gravity knife. At least, not by most of the world’s definition.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Nonetheless, under the [NYPD’s] unique interpretation of Penal Code 265.01, almost every pocketknife on the market today can be considered a gravity knife…[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]The penalties are severe, too, as Neal would learn. As a prior offender, he was eligible for a felony “bump up,” rendering the pocketknife Neal possessed the legal equivalent of an unlicensed, unloaded pistol. Though the court said he likely had no idea his knife was illegal, and he wasn’t accused of using it toward any nefarious end, he was convicted nonetheless.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]After a series of appeals, he was sentenced to six years in prison.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Needless to say, gravity knives are no more deadly than any other knife, but that doesn’t stop people from landing in prison for years for carrying one, or even carrying a knife that isn’t a gravity knife at all, apparently. As noted herehttps://mises.org/blog/government-police-services-nutshell, many police departments have incentives for officers to harass and arrest citizens for petty infractions such as these.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]UPDATE: reader SP adds some nuance to the legality of these knives:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The federal law only prohibits interstate commerce http://weaponlaws.wikidot.com/federal-switchblade-lawin automatic knives (switchblades). It says nothing about possessing them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]States are left on their own in terms of defining legality for switchblades, as are cities and towns. For example, switchblades are legal to own in many states, but illegal to carry in many localities.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Different from switchblades and gravity knives are many types of “one hand opening” and “assisted opening” knives – popular manufacturers include Spyderco and Kershaw. “Gravity” knives are actually quite uncommon, as most knife users prefer the one hand and assisted opening knives.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Intersetingly, I also see that Oklahoma just legalized switchblades.http://www.news9.com/story/28923573/fallin-signs-bill-legalizing-switchblade-knives-in-oklahoma[/SIZE]
The_Man
Footballguy
I thought this piece in The Baltimore Sun today by its former TV critic was excellent. This thread helped make it clear to me that the outside world had a greatly distorted view of what was happening in Baltimore - even at the height of the unrest - but certainly in the aftermath, which has now reached 11 days and counting since the one spasm of violence on Monday, April 27.
matttyl
Footballguy
Sweet J
Footballguy
I'm not really sure I understand posts like this. It's really no better than referencing Republican strongholds and then talking about how crappy the economy or living environment is, as if there are no other factors in play. I remember a map from a few years ago comparing all the blue states to red states and saying the blue states were all faring better than the red. I thought it was unfair, because, again, there are other factors at play.
I think criticisms of policies are fair, if they come with some inkling of thought or analysis. But "hey, Dems/Repubs, you suck!" is a little tiring.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/05/06/this-isnt-1968-baltimore-isnt-watts-and-hillary-clinton-isnt-michael-dukakis/
This article gives some fantastic incite into how these death spirals happen to people's lives. Second half of it is more relevant to the discussion at hand. First half is some Hillary cheerleading if you can keep your breakfast down the second half is awesome.
G
General Tso
Guest
NY would be #2 in my book, yes. They are surprisingly anti-business from an insurance perspective, and filings take forever to be approved. But there is at least a semblance of intelligence and professionalism among their examiners.
What are the odds Baltimore burns to the ground when the police officers are acquitted (or when the SA's office drops the charges)?
I don't think the SA could have handled this worse - even if she really had facts to back up her politically-motivated charges. If she really believed she was not going to get an effective investigation from teh Baltimore Police Department, she should have called in an independent investigator of sorts from either the State police, or the FBI. Surely she must have understood the trouble she was causing her own office by alienating the police?
I don't think the SA could have handled this worse - even if she really had facts to back up her politically-motivated charges. If she really believed she was not going to get an effective investigation from teh Baltimore Police Department, she should have called in an independent investigator of sorts from either the State police, or the FBI. Surely she must have understood the trouble she was causing her own office by alienating the police?
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
Oriole fans are trying to get a sellout crowd for this Monday's game, calling it re-opening day. The orioles are supportive, but from what I've read, reluctant to get involved.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
One of the better op-eds I've written in a while, even with the meandering discussion of Clinton/election politics at the beginning. Anyone interested in any subject related to this story/thread should consider it mandatory reading.
G
General Tso
Guest
Sorry, but I don't agree with the basic premise of the article at all. I hate the media as much as the next guy but they bear little to no responsibility for the rioting on Monday that turned a medium sized news story into one of the biggest stories of the year. And the Police didn't start that rioting on Monday either - they watched it.
Wow - talk about revisionist history. That was an all out attack on police and what ensued in the immediate hours afterward - unprovoked by either the media or the Police - was a full fledged riot by any measure of the word. Just hogwash to blame any of that in CNN.
You keep trying to shift the blame here, but those riots fall squarely on the hands of the protestors who assaulted those Police, looted those businesses, and burned those buildings. The same crap could have happened in North Charleston, except in those cities the leaders of the Community did a better job managing the crisis.
jonessed
Footballguy
CNN has become the Twitter/Facebook of news. Hopefully they don't drag everybody else further into that cesspool.
G
General Tso
Guest
He spent a lot of time talking about how 5 shootings of cops in New York is less than historical figures, but fails to mention that police brutality is also down dramatically in NY this year. Only 1 person has died at the hands of an NYPD cop in the last 5 months. 1. Totally disingenuous of him not to mention that stat as well.
One of the better op-eds I've written in a while, even with the meandering discussion of Clinton/election politics at the beginning. Anyone interested in any subject related to this story/thread should consider it mandatory reading.
jonessed
Footballguy
The discrepancy with the state/local laws with regards to the knife is a good indication of the amount of though that went into the charges.
Aiming high and cutting out the police department might have appeased the masses temporarily, but it sets the city up for another meltdown.
matttyl
Footballguy
You wrote that?!
One of the better op-eds I've written in a while, even with the meandering discussion of Clinton/election politics at the beginning. Anyone interested in any subject related to this story/thread should consider it mandatory reading.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
He spent a lot of time talking about how 5 shootings of cops in New York is less than historical figures, but fails to mention that police brutality is also down dramatically in NY this year. Only 1 person has died at the hands of an NYPD cop in the last 5 months. 1. Totally disingenuous of him not to mention that stat as well.
One of the better op-eds I've written in a while, even with the meandering discussion of Clinton/election politics at the beginning. Anyone interested in any subject related to this story/thread should consider it mandatory reading.
The point being made there has nothing whatsoever to do with police brutality rates. In fact there's no mention whatsoever of police brutality except arguably as a small part of the long narrative about Antonio Morgan's lifetime of experiences with law enforcement, where it mentions he was tased once. The word "brutality" doesn't even appear in the article,
Edit- my word search initially missed two references to "excessive force." My bad. Both are in passing, though, so the point stands.
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PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
great read. Thanks for posting.He spent a lot of time talking about how 5 shootings of cops in New York is less than historical figures, but fails to mention that police brutality is also down dramatically in NY this year. Only 1 person has died at the hands of an NYPD cop in the last 5 months. 1. Totally disingenuous of him not to mention that stat as well.
One of the better op-eds I've written in a while, even with the meandering discussion of Clinton/election politics at the beginning. Anyone interested in any subject related to this story/thread should consider it mandatory reading.
The point being made there has nothing whatsoever to do with police brutality rates. In fact there's no mention whatsoever of police brutality except arguably as a small part of the long narrative about Antonio Morgan's lifetime of experiences with law enforcement, where it mentions he was tased once. The word "brutality" doesn't even appear in the article,nor does the word "force" except following the word "police."
Edit- my word search initially missed two references to "excessive force." My bad. Both are in passing, though, so the point stands.
G
General Tso
Guest
I'm referring to the Blako article comparing the civil unrest in 1968 to 2015. Declining police brutality numbers are no less relevant than the declining numbers of NY police offers killed, which he talked about at length. If anything the declining police brutality numbers are more relevant to any discussion about civil unrest and their impact on policy now and during the campaign, as that is what is likely to lead to more or less civil unrest in the coming months. People don't riot over cops being killed.He spent a lot of time talking about how 5 shootings of cops in New York is less than historical figures, but fails to mention that police brutality is also down dramatically in NY this year. Only 1 person has died at the hands of an NYPD cop in the last 5 months. 1. Totally disingenuous of him not to mention that stat as well.
One of the better op-eds I've written in a while, even with the meandering discussion of Clinton/election politics at the beginning. Anyone interested in any subject related to this story/thread should consider it mandatory reading.
The point being made there has nothing whatsoever to do with police brutality rates. In fact there's no mention whatsoever of police brutality except arguably as a small part of the long narrative about Antonio Morgan's lifetime of experiences with law enforcement, where it mentions he was tased once. The word "brutality" doesn't even appear in the article, nor does the word "force" except following the word "police."
Edit- my word search initially missed two references to "excessive force." My bad. Both are in passing, though, so the point stands.
