Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (5 Viewers)

[TobiasFunke]

Serious question. As a middle aged white guy, what can I do to make things better? Over my lifetime, I've seen the call for more African American police officers. That has happened. I've seen the call for more African American police chiefs, mayors, governors. That's been done. I heard the call for more jobs, more education, more opportunity for African Americans. But, if you don't apply, don't study and don't have the self motivation to go after opportunity to make your life better, what can I do to help?I don't think anyone deserves to die at the hands of another person, (sans capital punishment) regardless of race or religion. As a middle aged white guy, in flyover country, how do I effect the police forces across the country? I try to raise my kids to do the right things, but I can't raise everyone's kids.

Very reasonable question.Last night, HIllary Clinton gave a very thoughtful and nuanced speech about this subject which included a few specific proposals that might help. I posted the transcript in the Clinton thread. You want to help? Vote for her and for politicians who think like her. That's my serious answer.

JFC.

Appropriate reaction.

On the other hand ...

 

[Hang 10]

The white people joining these marches are the dumbest people on the streets. Their intentions are noble but they're just adding to the numbers and too naive to realize that the brownie points they are trying to earn won't and don't matter.

Yeah, people trying to have their voice heard are actually wasting their time trying to earn brownie points that won't and don't matter, and it's pretty dumb. Thanks for this perspective, person who maintained a barely-used alias on an internet message board for five years and then pulled it out to post this obvious fishing trip.

Serious question. As a middle aged white guy, what can I do to make things better? Over my lifetime, I've seen the call for more African American police officers. That has happened. I've seen the call for more African American police chiefs, mayors, governors. That's been done. I heard the call for more jobs, more education, more opportunity for African Americans. But, if you don't apply, don't study and don't have the self motivation to go after opportunity to make your life better, what can I do to help?I don't think anyone deserves to die at the hands of another person, (sans capital punishment) regardless of race or religion. As a middle aged white guy, in flyover country, how do I effect the police forces across the country? I try to raise my kids to do the right things, but I can't raise everyone's kids.

Great question, and one that well intentioned white people everywhere have been asking for years. My answer? Get out of the way. The key systemic issues have largely been resolved over the last 60 years. In my opinion the issues now are cultural in nature, and most of those need to be solved from within the black community. Like Jason Riley says to Librals, "Stop Helping Us".

Couldnt disagree more with this.

Let's keep doing the same thing. No, let's do more of the same this time. That should work eventually right?

 

[timschochet]

Serious question. As a middle aged white guy, what can I do to make things better? Over my lifetime, I've seen the call for more African American police officers. That has happened. I've seen the call for more African American police chiefs, mayors, governors. That's been done. I heard the call for more jobs, more education, more opportunity for African Americans. But, if you don't apply, don't study and don't have the self motivation to go after opportunity to make your life better, what can I do to help?

I don't think anyone deserves to die at the hands of another person, (sans capital punishment) regardless of race or religion. As a middle aged white guy, in flyover country, how do I effect the police forces across the country? I try to raise my kids to do the right things, but I can't raise everyone's kids.

Very reasonable question.Last night, HIllary Clinton gave a very thoughtful and nuanced speech about this subject which included a few specific proposals that might help. I posted the transcript in the Clinton thread. You want to help? Vote for her and for politicians who think like her. That's my serious answer.

JFC.

Appropriate reaction.

On the other hand ...

Well that's General Tso's solution. Apparently all of the systemic issues have been solved for decades, so we should just cut all of the programs and leave these people alone. They can solve their own problems.

 

[timschochet]

The white people joining these marches are the dumbest people on the streets. Their intentions are noble but they're just adding to the numbers and too naive to realize that the brownie points they are trying to earn won't and don't matter.

Yeah, people trying to have their voice heard are actually wasting their time trying to earn brownie points that won't and don't matter, and it's pretty dumb. Thanks for this perspective, person who maintained a barely-used alias on an internet message board for five years and then pulled it out to post this obvious fishing trip.

Serious question. As a middle aged white guy, what can I do to make things better? Over my lifetime, I've seen the call for more African American police officers. That has happened. I've seen the call for more African American police chiefs, mayors, governors. That's been done. I heard the call for more jobs, more education, more opportunity for African Americans. But, if you don't apply, don't study and don't have the self motivation to go after opportunity to make your life better, what can I do to help?I don't think anyone deserves to die at the hands of another person, (sans capital punishment) regardless of race or religion. As a middle aged white guy, in flyover country, how do I effect the police forces across the country? I try to raise my kids to do the right things, but I can't raise everyone's kids.

Great question, and one that well intentioned white people everywhere have been asking for years. My answer? Get out of the way. The key systemic issues have largely been resolved over the last 60 years. In my opinion the issues now are cultural in nature, and most of those need to be solved from within the black community. Like Jason Riley says to Librals, "Stop Helping Us".

Couldnt disagree more with this.

Let's keep doing the same thing. No, let's do more of the same this time. That should work eventually right?

No, let's try new stuff, like the stuff Hillary just proposed. Have you read her speech yet?

 

[matttyl]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

Trust me, I'm all for every form being available at little or no charge. The only one I was against (call me old fashion) is the ability for a girl under 18 to get an IUD without parental consent or even parental notification.

 

[TripItUp]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

Trust me, I'm all for every form being available at little or no charge. The only one I was against (call me old fashion) is the ability for a girl under 18 to get an IUD without parental consent or even parental notification.

I'd agree with that...when you get into any of the surgical options you would need parental approval.

 

[matttyl]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

And I think we can both agree that if we can take steps to fix this particular symptom/problem (whatever you'd like to call it), then that will go a long way to fixing the much larger problem, correct? You just said that the world would be a better place.... As such, what can we do to fix this symptom/problem which will only help?

As for expecting accountability across large segments of the population, why not? Should we expect people among large segments of the population not to kill one another? I think we can expect that. Can we expect people across a large segment of the population to not hit their girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse/kids? I think that's also something we can expect, though understand that it won't be universal. I think we can and frankly should expect it in other areas, no matter if from an individual or from a group no matter the size - such as high school graduation, not breaking serious laws, being there to raise a child you brought into this world, on and on. What kind of world would we live in if we think it's pointless and absurd to expect our fellow man (fellow mankind so it's a group) to most often do the right thing? I'm not expecting 100% compliance by any means, I think we can all be realists about that.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The white people joining these marches are the dumbest people on the streets. Their intentions are noble but they're just adding to the numbers and too naive to realize that the brownie points they are trying to earn won't and don't matter.

Yeah, people trying to have their voice heard are actually wasting their time trying to earn brownie points that won't and don't matter, and it's pretty dumb. Thanks for this perspective, person who maintained a barely-used alias on an internet message board for five years and then pulled it out to post this obvious fishing trip.

Serious question. As a middle aged white guy, what can I do to make things better? Over my lifetime, I've seen the call for more African American police officers. That has happened. I've seen the call for more African American police chiefs, mayors, governors. That's been done. I heard the call for more jobs, more education, more opportunity for African Americans. But, if you don't apply, don't study and don't have the self motivation to go after opportunity to make your life better, what can I do to help?I don't think anyone deserves to die at the hands of another person, (sans capital punishment) regardless of race or religion. As a middle aged white guy, in flyover country, how do I effect the police forces across the country? I try to raise my kids to do the right things, but I can't raise everyone's kids.

Great question, and one that well intentioned white people everywhere have been asking for years. My answer? Get out of the way. The key systemic issues have largely been resolved over the last 60 years. In my opinion the issues now are cultural in nature, and most of those need to be solved from within the black community. Like Jason Riley says to Librals, "Stop Helping Us".

Couldnt disagree more with this.

Let's keep doing the same thing. No, let's do more of the same this time. That should work eventually right?

Well, let's not keep doing all of the same things. Like for example, I'm totally in favor of no longer tolerating cops beating the #### out of innocent grandmothers and pregnant women while society ignores it and instead acts like people stealing paper towels from a CVS are history's greatest monsters. A change there might be helpful.

 

[ArbyMelt]

The white people joining these marches are the dumbest people on the streets. Their intentions are noble but they're just adding to the numbers and too naive to realize that the brownie points they are trying to earn won't and don't matter.

Yeah, people trying to have their voice heard are actually wasting their time trying to earn brownie points that won't and don't matter, and it's pretty dumb. Thanks for this perspective, person who maintained a barely-used alias on an internet message board for five years and then pulled it out to post this obvious fishing trip.

Serious question. As a middle aged white guy, what can I do to make things better? Over my lifetime, I've seen the call for more African American police officers. That has happened. I've seen the call for more African American police chiefs, mayors, governors. That's been done. I heard the call for more jobs, more education, more opportunity for African Americans. But, if you don't apply, don't study and don't have the self motivation to go after opportunity to make your life better, what can I do to help?I don't think anyone deserves to die at the hands of another person, (sans capital punishment) regardless of race or religion. As a middle aged white guy, in flyover country, how do I effect the police forces across the country? I try to raise my kids to do the right things, but I can't raise everyone's kids.

Great question, and one that well intentioned white people everywhere have been asking for years. My answer? Get out of the way. The key systemic issues have largely been resolved over the last 60 years. In my opinion the issues now are cultural in nature, and most of those need to be solved from within the black community. Like Jason Riley says to Librals, "Stop Helping Us".

Couldnt disagree more with this.

Let's keep doing the same thing. No, let's do more of the same this time. That should work eventually right?

Well, let's not keep doing all of the same things. Like for example, I'm totally in favor of no longer tolerating cops beating the #### out of innocent grandmothers and pregnant women while society ignores it and instead acts like people stealing paper towels from a CVS are history's greatest monsters. A change there might be helpful.

I was gonna check up on this thread but maybe I'll pass

 

[[icon]]

Lot of tweets of looting are faked.

 

[TobiasFunke]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

 

[Sabertooth]

How many pairs of work boots got stolen?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Well, let's not keep doing all of the same things. Like for example, I'm totally in favor of no longer tolerating cops beating the #### out of innocent grandmothers and pregnant women while society ignores it and instead acts like people stealing paper towels from a CVS are history's greatest monsters. A change there might be helpful.

I was gonna check up on this thread but maybe I'll pass

Sounds like a win-win

 

[whiskey7]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

I don't think it is a joke, but I strongly disagree that there would be broad based support.

It would be interesting to see where America stands in 2015. In 1985 there wouldn't be chance.

I have said before I feel people who are poor (enough to be on gubmt assistance) should not be reproducing and I got absolutely ripped apart for it. I think any policies that encouraged stemming the tide of new poor people (and let's be honest, that is part of what needs to be done) would instantly be labeled racist because it would most likely impact blacks at a higher percentage than other races.

 

[TripItUp]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

I don't think it is a joke, but I strongly disagree that there would be broad based support.

It would be interesting to see where America stands in 2015. In 1985 there wouldn't be chance.

I have said before I feel people who are poor (enough to be on gubmt assistance) should not be reproducing and I got absolutely ripped apart for it. I think any policies that encouraged stemming the tide of new poor people (and let's be honest, that is part of what needs to be done) would instantly be labeled racist because it would most likely impact blacks at a higher percentage than other races.

You wouldn't force people to go on a form of birth control, you are merely giving it away for free and encouraging parents to encourage their children to take it.

Seems harmless to me.

 

[whiskey7]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

I don't think it is a joke, but I strongly disagree that there would be broad based support.

It would be interesting to see where America stands in 2015. In 1985 there wouldn't be chance.

I have said before I feel people who are poor (enough to be on gubmt assistance) should not be reproducing and I got absolutely ripped apart for it. I think any policies that encouraged stemming the tide of new poor people (and let's be honest, that is part of what needs to be done) would instantly be labeled racist because it would most likely impact blacks at a higher percentage than other races.

You wouldn't force people to go on a form of birth control, you are merely giving it away for free and encouraging parents to encourage their children to take it.

Seems harmless to me.

Seems brilliant to me. But I can almost guarantee that there would be all kinds of opposition that would include the policies being labeled racist attempts to eliminate black people.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Lot of tweets of looting are faked.

Thankfully this one looks real.

 

[TripItUp]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

I don't think it is a joke, but I strongly disagree that there would be broad based support.

It would be interesting to see where America stands in 2015. In 1985 there wouldn't be chance.

I have said before I feel people who are poor (enough to be on gubmt assistance) should not be reproducing and I got absolutely ripped apart for it. I think any policies that encouraged stemming the tide of new poor people (and let's be honest, that is part of what needs to be done) would instantly be labeled racist because it would most likely impact blacks at a higher percentage than other races.

You wouldn't force people to go on a form of birth control, you are merely giving it away for free and encouraging parents to encourage their children to take it.

Seems harmless to me.

Seems brilliant to me. But I can almost guarantee that there would be all kinds of opposition that would include the policies being labeled racist attempts to eliminate black people.

I think black leadership would support this and that's probably all that you'd need. The ultra conservative black leaders may not like it, but I think they'd be in the minority.

 

[whiskey7]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

I don't think it is a joke, but I strongly disagree that there would be broad based support.

It would be interesting to see where America stands in 2015. In 1985 there wouldn't be chance.

I have said before I feel people who are poor (enough to be on gubmt assistance) should not be reproducing and I got absolutely ripped apart for it. I think any policies that encouraged stemming the tide of new poor people (and let's be honest, that is part of what needs to be done) would instantly be labeled racist because it would most likely impact blacks at a higher percentage than other races.

You wouldn't force people to go on a form of birth control, you are merely giving it away for free and encouraging parents to encourage their children to take it.

Seems harmless to me.

Seems brilliant to me. But I can almost guarantee that there would be all kinds of opposition that would include the policies being labeled racist attempts to eliminate black people.

I think black leadership would support this and that's probably all that you'd need. The ultra conservative black leaders may not like it, but I think they'd be in the minority.

It would be great if you are right in this case and I truly hope you are. But the fact that such a no-brainer has not yet happened leads me to believe there are enough people that would oppose it that it may not ever happen.

 

[MattFancy]

Police announce completed Freddie Gray investigation Thursday

Baltimore Police are poised to announce Thursday that they have completed their investigation into the death of Freddie Gray and have turned it over to city prosecutors, according to a source with knowledge of the agency's plans.

After Gray's death April 19, Police Commissioner Anthony W. Batts said that the police investigation would be completed by May 1.

State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby will ultimately determine whether charges will be brought against any of the six suspended officers, and she has not set a timetable for that decision.

Police said Wednesday that no additional information would be released at the conclusion of their investigation. "By turning these documents, our findings over to the state's attorney's office as quickly as we can, we are being accountable to them so that we can be accountable to the public," spokesman Capt. Eric Kowalczyk told reporters.

 

[lod01]

How many pairs of work boots got stolen?

Don't even go there. You get one thug wearing his pants around his knees and a pair of work boots on and it spreads like wildfire. The rest of us won't be able to purchase work boots when we need them.

 

[General Tso]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

I don't think it is a joke, but I strongly disagree that there would be broad based support.

It would be interesting to see where America stands in 2015. In 1985 there wouldn't be chance.

I have said before I feel people who are poor (enough to be on gubmt assistance) should not be reproducing and I got absolutely ripped apart for it. I think any policies that encouraged stemming the tide of new poor people (and let's be honest, that is part of what needs to be done) would instantly be labeled racist because it would most likely impact blacks at a higher percentage than other races.

Don't listen to them. I learned fairly recently in here that some Liberals will use the racism card as a means to quell debate and get their way. I've been called a racist and a bigot repeatedly in here and you know what? I really don't care anymore. I know what I am, and I know what my motives are. If your conscience is clear don't worry what others will say. Your truth is your truth.

 

[Sabertooth]

How many pairs of work boots got stolen?

Don't even go there. You get one thug wearing his pants around his knees and a pair of work boots on and it spreads like wildfire. The rest of us won't be able to purchase work boots when we need them.

Good point. How about cowboy boots?

 

[matttyl]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

Again, birth rates aren't nearly as important as you're attempting to make them. We went over this yesterday - case in point the black population grew by 40% in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 even with a declining birth rate, and at the same time was making up larger and larger % of the total US population (again, during a time of a declining birth rate). The statistic is that there are roughly 1.6M black children born out of wedlock per year today, roughly 3 times the actual number of the same from 50 years ago. That's the "isolated statistic." With mortality rates being what they are from a group of people that's only ~50m, we could easily see a situation where 2/3rds of the entire black population in this country was born out of wedlock in the next 2 decades.

As for your "across the board reductions in marriage", that's not really true either. It's roughly twice as likely today than it was in 1960 for white and Latino individuals to not marry, but 4 times as likely for blacks.

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

As for what I think is the reason - lots of things, and honestly if I knew what it was I wouldn't be doing what I do. Some thoughts - It's brought on itself (child without a 2 parent household more likely have to have children out of wedlock themselves). Being easier to acquire different forms of welfare when a single parent. Seeing it in their own communities. Regardless of what the reason or reasons are, this is likely a problem/symptom where you don't need to know the reason to come up with a solution. What do you think a good solution would be?

 

[MattFancy]

The 45-minute mystery of Freddie Gray's death

 

[TobiasFunke]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

Again, birth rates aren't nearly as important as you're attempting to make them. We went over this yesterday - case in point the black population grew by 40% in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 even with a declining birth rate, and at the same time was making up larger and larger % of the total US population (again, during a time of a declining birth rate). The statistic is that there are roughly 1.6M black children born out of wedlock per year today, roughly 3 times the actual number of the same from 50 years ago. That's the "isolated statistic." With mortality rates being what they are from a group of people that's only ~50m, we could easily see a situation where 2/3rds of the entire black population in this country was born out of wedlock in the next 2 decades.

As for your "across the board reductions in marriage", that's not really true either. It's roughly twice as likely today than it was in 1960 for white and Latino individuals to not marry, but 4 times as likely for blacks.

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

As for what I think is the reason - lots of things, and honestly if I knew what it was I wouldn't be doing what I do. Some thoughts - It's brought on itself (child without a 2 parent household more likely have to have children out of wedlock themselves). Being easier to acquire different forms of welfare when a single parent. Seeing it in their own communities. Regardless of what the reason or reasons are, this is likely a problem/symptom where you don't need to know the reason to come up with a solution. What do you think a good solution would be?

Because people like to ####, and sometimes they don't use protection. Do you really not know that? I think you probably know that.

 

[humpback]

Free birth control is a no brainer to me. (cost is significantly less than the alternative)

Free vasectomies with a free $100 cash bonus?

I realize this is a joke, but pretty much every form should be made available free of charge...the benefits significantly outweigh the costs and now that our society is more secularized I think there would be broad based support for the program...wouldn't even notice the cost in the Federal budget.

I don't think it is a joke, but I strongly disagree that there would be broad based support.

It would be interesting to see where America stands in 2015. In 1985 there wouldn't be chance.

I have said before I feel people who are poor (enough to be on gubmt assistance) should not be reproducing and I got absolutely ripped apart for it. I think any policies that encouraged stemming the tide of new poor people (and let's be honest, that is part of what needs to be done) would instantly be labeled racist because it would most likely impact blacks at a higher percentage than other races.

You wouldn't force people to go on a form of birth control, you are merely giving it away for free and encouraging parents to encourage their children to take it.

Seems harmless to me.

Seems brilliant to me. But I can almost guarantee that there would be all kinds of opposition that would include the policies being labeled racist attempts to eliminate black people.

I think black leadership would support this and that's probably all that you'd need. The ultra conservative black leaders may not like it, but I think they'd be in the minority.

For standard birth control, I agree. For "free" or incentivized sterilizations, I completely disagree. Seems tailor-made for racism charges, and I think you'd also have plenty of opposition from the ultra-religious, financial conservatives (due to the initial costs even if it would save money in the long run), etc.

 

[General Tso]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

Again, birth rates aren't nearly as important as you're attempting to make them. We went over this yesterday - case in point the black population grew by 40% in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 even with a declining birth rate, and at the same time was making up larger and larger % of the total US population (again, during a time of a declining birth rate). The statistic is that there are roughly 1.6M black children born out of wedlock per year today, roughly 3 times the actual number of the same from 50 years ago. That's the "isolated statistic." With mortality rates being what they are from a group of people that's only ~50m, we could easily see a situation where 2/3rds of the entire black population in this country was born out of wedlock in the next 2 decades.As for your "across the board reductions in marriage", that's not really true either. It's roughly twice as likely today than it was in 1960 for white and Latino individuals to not marry, but 4 times as likely for blacks.

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

As for what I think is the reason - lots of things, and honestly if I knew what it was I wouldn't be doing what I do. Some thoughts - It's brought on itself (child without a 2 parent household more likely have to have children out of wedlock themselves). Being easier to acquire different forms of welfare when a single parent. Seeing it in their own communities. Regardless of what the reason or reasons are, this is likely a problem/symptom where you don't need to know the reason to come up with a solution. What do you think a good solution would be?

Because people like to ####, and sometimes they don't use protection. Do you really not know that? I think you probably know that.

Another example of cultural versus systemic.

 

[humpback]

Serious question. As a middle aged white guy, what can I do to make things better? Over my lifetime, I've seen the call for more African American police officers. That has happened. I've seen the call for more African American police chiefs, mayors, governors. That's been done. I heard the call for more jobs, more education, more opportunity for African Americans. But, if you don't apply, don't study and don't have the self motivation to go after opportunity to make your life better, what can I do to help?

I don't think anyone deserves to die at the hands of another person, (sans capital punishment) regardless of race or religion. As a middle aged white guy, in flyover country, how do I effect the police forces across the country? I try to raise my kids to do the right things, but I can't raise everyone's kids.

Very reasonable question.Last night, HIllary Clinton gave a very thoughtful and nuanced speech about this subject which included a few specific proposals that might help. I posted the transcript in the Clinton thread. You want to help? Vote for her and for politicians who think like her. That's my serious answer.

JFC.

Did you read the speech?

Yep. However, I realize that what comes out of a politician's mouth is essentially worthless, while you buy it hook, line, and sinker. Fool me 3,487,243 times, shame on who?

 

[Billy Bats]

Lot of tweets of looting are faked.

Thankfully this one looks real.

The ice cream riots of '15. (Nsfw language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=DAVLnTm2RJU

 

[cstu]

Did you read the speech?

She lost me here:

And terrified of spending more time in jail for child support payments he couldn’t afford.

 

[tom22406]

Lot of tweets of looting are faked.

Thankfully this one looks real.

The ice cream riots of '15. (Nsfw language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=DAVLnTm2RJU

"I got to go man,I got to ####!"

 

[matttyl]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

Again, birth rates aren't nearly as important as you're attempting to make them. We went over this yesterday - case in point the black population grew by 40% in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 even with a declining birth rate, and at the same time was making up larger and larger % of the total US population (again, during a time of a declining birth rate). The statistic is that there are roughly 1.6M black children born out of wedlock per year today, roughly 3 times the actual number of the same from 50 years ago. That's the "isolated statistic." With mortality rates being what they are from a group of people that's only ~50m, we could easily see a situation where 2/3rds of the entire black population in this country was born out of wedlock in the next 2 decades.

As for your "across the board reductions in marriage", that's not really true either. It's roughly twice as likely today than it was in 1960 for white and Latino individuals to not marry, but 4 times as likely for blacks.

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

As for what I think is the reason - lots of things, and honestly if I knew what it was I wouldn't be doing what I do. Some thoughts - It's brought on itself (child without a 2 parent household more likely have to have children out of wedlock themselves). Being easier to acquire different forms of welfare when a single parent. Seeing it in their own communities. Regardless of what the reason or reasons are, this is likely a problem/symptom where you don't need to know the reason to come up with a solution. What do you think a good solution would be?

Because people like to ####, and sometimes they don't use protection. Do you really not know that? I think you probably know that.

No ###. I think you've found a root cause to this symptom/problem. Moreover, why is so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Regardless, what's your solution?

This is yet another instance of me actually putting some time into a post and backing it up with information to attempt to have a serious conversation with you about an issue and you come back with this type of response.

I also find it terribly funny that just yesterday you didn't understand what a "birth rate" really meant and how to apply it, and today you feel it's "the far more important figure."

 

[General Tso]

Did you read the speech?

She lost me here:

And terrified of spending more time in jail for child support payments he couldnt afford.

I assume this is in reference to Walter Scott. Not sure what her solution was in this regard, but I will say that there is definitely a problem that needs to be fixed with the current child support system. It is way too punitive towards the father. Some good articles written about that online, but the issue got lost behind the headlines of "racist cops shoot another black man".

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Baltimore Police Say Freddie Gray Probe Is CompleteBALTIMORE—Baltimore police said Thursday they have concluded their investigation into the death of Freddie Gray and turned the results over to the city’s chief prosecutor.

“We have exhausted every lead at this point in time,” Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said.

The case is now in the hands of State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby, who faces her first high-profile test since assuming office in January.

Mr. Batts said more than 30 investigators worked on the probe. There is also an ongoing federal civil-rights investigation into Mr. Gray’s death.

 

[cstu]

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

Have you seen what most of these women look like? They don't exactly have their pick of the litter.

 

[Swing 51]

[SIZE=11pt]Anyone get crime alerts in Baltimore? Reports of a triple shooting around the area of McKean Ave and W Lafayette Ave.[/SIZE]

And the beat goes on....

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Meet Marilyn Mosby, the Woman Overseeing the Freddie Gray Investigation

Baltimore's state's attorney probably did not expect to be thrust into the national spotlight during her fourth month on the job. And yet Marilyn Mosby — the youngest top prosecutor of any major city in America — now finds herself playing a key role in a local drama that has gripped the country.

The 35-year-old is tasked with determining whether charges are warranted in the controversial death of Freddie Gray, the 25-year-old black man who died after suffering a spinal cord injury in police custody. Gray's death hasinspired protests in Baltimore and nationwide.

On Thursday, the Baltimore police commissioner announced the department had handed confidential information on how Gray died over to prosecutors. The Justice Department is working on its own independent investigation.

Mosby did not return a call from NBC News requesting comment, but her office confirmed it had received the police department's investigative file.

"However, the results of their investigation is not new to us," the office said in a statement. " We have been briefed regularly throughout their process while simultaneously conducting our own independent investigation into the death of Freddie Gray. ... We ask for the public to remain patient and peaceful and to trust the process of the justice system."

Mosby is a Democrat who comes from a long line of police officers — but she has been vocal about holding cops accountable in the past.

"She has a natural affinity for police officers and law enforcement types, and at the same time, she is aware of the incredible number of complaints against the Baltimore City police department," said Richard Woods, a Baltimore-based attorney whose practice is primarily criminal defense work.


Woods has known Mosby for years and supported her in her campaign for state's attorney. "It was important to have somebody who was willing to look at it from both sides, and Marilyn Mosby fit the bill."

Her interest in the justice system stemmed from tragedy: When she was growing up in inner-city Boston, her 17-year-old cousin was mistaken for a drug dealer and killed outside her home by another 17-year-old.

The former insurance company attorney is leading an independent investigation of the officers involved in Gray's death on April 19. She has not said when she might decide if she will pursue charges.

She has spoken out against police officers numerous times. During her campaign for state's attorney, in response to a Baltimore Sun investigation of allegations of police beatings, she said: "Police brutality is completely inexcusable. I'm going to apply justice fairly, even to those who wear a badge."

Mosby is a mother of two daughters who met her future husband while she was studying political science at the historically black Tuskegee University in Alabama. She was the first in her family to graduate from college, was raised by a single mother, and has law enforcement in her blood.

"My grandfather, my uncles, my mother, my father — I have five generations of police officers. I know that the majority of police officers are really hard-working officers who are risking their lives day in and day out, but those really bad ones who go rogue do a disservice to the officers who are risking their lives and taking time away from their families," she toldBaltimore Magazine in January, when she started her tenure as state's attorney.


Her surprise win last November is her first stint as an elected official. She bested incumbent Gregg Bernstein by portraying herself as a crime crusader, determined to keep repeat offenders off the streets.

"People who have zero regard for human life do not deserve to live among the residents of the greatest city in the world," she said in a primary victory speech.

 

[whiskey7]

Did you read the speech?

She lost me here:

And terrified of spending more time in jail for child support payments he couldnt afford.

I assume this is in reference to Walter Scott. Not sure what her solution was in this regard, but I will say that there is definitely a problem that needs to be fixed with the current child support system. It is way too punitive towards the father. Some good articles written about that online, but the issue got lost behind the headlines of "racist cops shoot another black man".

No bigger seller right now and, unfortunately, all some folks need to see to try the case and produce a verdict.

 

[Parrothead]

[SIZE=11pt]Anyone get crime alerts in Baltimore? Reports of a triple shooting around the area of McKean Ave and W Lafayette Ave.[/SIZE]

And the beat goes on....

well, at least things are finally getting back to normal

 

[matttyl]

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

Have you seen what most of these women look like? They don't exactly have their pick of the litter.

What do you mean "these women"?

 

[TobiasFunke]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

Again, birth rates aren't nearly as important as you're attempting to make them. We went over this yesterday - case in point the black population grew by 40% in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 even with a declining birth rate, and at the same time was making up larger and larger % of the total US population (again, during a time of a declining birth rate). The statistic is that there are roughly 1.6M black children born out of wedlock per year today, roughly 3 times the actual number of the same from 50 years ago. That's the "isolated statistic." With mortality rates being what they are from a group of people that's only ~50m, we could easily see a situation where 2/3rds of the entire black population in this country was born out of wedlock in the next 2 decades.

As for your "across the board reductions in marriage", that's not really true either. It's roughly twice as likely today than it was in 1960 for white and Latino individuals to not marry, but 4 times as likely for blacks.

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

As for what I think is the reason - lots of things, and honestly if I knew what it was I wouldn't be doing what I do. Some thoughts - It's brought on itself (child without a 2 parent household more likely have to have children out of wedlock themselves). Being easier to acquire different forms of welfare when a single parent. Seeing it in their own communities. Regardless of what the reason or reasons are, this is likely a problem/symptom where you don't need to know the reason to come up with a solution. What do you think a good solution would be?

Because people like to ####, and sometimes they don't use protection. Do you really not know that? I think you probably know that.

No ###. I think you've found a root cause to this symptom/problem. Moreover, why is so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Regardless, what's your solution?

This is yet another instance of me actually putting some time into a post and backing it up with information to attempt to have a serious conversation with you about an issue and you come back with this type of response.

I also find it terribly funny that just yesterday you didn't understand what a "birth rate" really meant and how to apply it, and today you feel it's "the far more important figure."

Why is ####ing out of wedlock so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Really?

The answer is that it's not. Or at least I think that's probably way down the list of reasons for the disparity. Sex education is more prevalent in one group and not another. Access to birth control is more prevalent in one group and not another. Money to pay for abortions- and societal acceptance of the practice- is more prevalent in one group and not another. Those are also significant reasons for the disparity.

I'm not treating your posts on this whole "black kids being born out of wedlock are the problem!" thing seriously because I think it's pointless. First, I think the premise that two-parent families make a huge difference is mostly nonsense. Having two parents probably helps children a little bit, but most of the data shows correlation, not causation. Second, to the extent that it is a problem, there are already some obvious solutions that I would fully support. Increased funding for sex education for poorer areas of the country. Easy access to birth control in those areas. Unfettered access to abortions and financial assistance to those who seek them but can't afford them. Reform of our ridiculous drug laws so we stop incarcerating potential husbands for victimless crimes. There you go, problem solved. Is that gonna end unfair treatment of the black community by law enforcement? Is if going to put them on equal footing when it comes to financial opportunity?

Finally- yesterday I misread a post about raw birth numbers and cited birth rates instead. I apologized for it. I understand the difference between the two. Stop being a smug ####### about it.

 

[Jack White]

TPTB love this thread. Divide and conquer.

 

[James Daulton]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

Again, birth rates aren't nearly as important as you're attempting to make them. We went over this yesterday - case in point the black population grew by 40% in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 even with a declining birth rate, and at the same time was making up larger and larger % of the total US population (again, during a time of a declining birth rate). The statistic is that there are roughly 1.6M black children born out of wedlock per year today, roughly 3 times the actual number of the same from 50 years ago. That's the "isolated statistic." With mortality rates being what they are from a group of people that's only ~50m, we could easily see a situation where 2/3rds of the entire black population in this country was born out of wedlock in the next 2 decades.

As for your "across the board reductions in marriage", that's not really true either. It's roughly twice as likely today than it was in 1960 for white and Latino individuals to not marry, but 4 times as likely for blacks.

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

As for what I think is the reason - lots of things, and honestly if I knew what it was I wouldn't be doing what I do. Some thoughts - It's brought on itself (child without a 2 parent household more likely have to have children out of wedlock themselves). Being easier to acquire different forms of welfare when a single parent. Seeing it in their own communities. Regardless of what the reason or reasons are, this is likely a problem/symptom where you don't need to know the reason to come up with a solution. What do you think a good solution would be?

Because people like to ####, and sometimes they don't use protection. Do you really not know that? I think you probably know that.

No ###. I think you've found a root cause to this symptom/problem. Moreover, why is so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Regardless, what's your solution?

This is yet another instance of me actually putting some time into a post and backing it up with information to attempt to have a serious conversation with you about an issue and you come back with this type of response.

I also find it terribly funny that just yesterday you didn't understand what a "birth rate" really meant and how to apply it, and today you feel it's "the far more important figure."

Why is ####ing out of wedlock so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Really?

The answer is that it's not. Or at least I think that's probably way down the list of reasons for the disparity. Sex education is more prevalent in one group and not another. Access to birth control is more prevalent in one group and not another. Money to pay for abortions- and societal acceptance of the practice- is more prevalent in one group and not another. Those are also significant reasons for the disparity.

I'm not treating your posts on this whole "black kids being born out of wedlock are the problem!" thing seriously because I think it's pointless. First, I think the premise that two-parent families make a huge difference is mostly nonsense. Having two parents probably helps children a little bit, but most of the data shows correlation, not causation. Second, to the extent that it is a problem, there are already some obvious solutions that I would fully support. Increased funding for sex education for poorer areas of the country. Easy access to birth control in those areas. Unfettered access to abortions and financial assistance to those who seek them but can't afford them. Reform of our ridiculous drug laws so we stop incarcerating potential husbands for victimless crimes. There you go, problem solved. Is that gonna end unfair treatment of the black community by law enforcement? Is if going to put them on equal footing when it comes to financial opportunity?

Finally- yesterday I misread a post about raw birth numbers and cited birth rates instead. I apologized for it. I understand the difference between the two. Stop being a smug ####### about it.

You can not be serious.

 

[General Tso]

The most important person in Baltimore right now - State's Attorney Marilyn Moseby. She will decide if the 6 cops will be prosecuted. Looks like she's a fascinating individual. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/baltimore-unrest/meet-marilyn-mosby-woman-overseeing-freddie-gray-investigation-n351046

- 35 year old black woman. The youngest top prosecutor of any major city in America.

- Mosby is a Democrat who comes from a long line of police officers but she has been vocal about holding cops accountable in the past.

- Both her parents were cops. Also her grandfather and her Uncle were cops.

- Grew up in Boston.

- She has spoken out against police officers numerous times. During her campaign for state's attorney, in response to a Baltimore Sun investigation of allegations of police beatings, she said: "Police brutality is completely inexcusable. I'm going to apply justice fairly, even to those who wear a badge."

- Studied political science at the historically black Tuskegee University in Alabama.

- Her surprise win last November is her first stint as an elected official. She bested incumbent Gregg Bernstein by portraying herself as a crime crusader, determined to keep repeat offenders off the streets.

- Her husband, Nick Mosby, is a Baltimore city councilman who has spoken out about the riots that Gray's death has prompted.

- It hasn't all been praise for Mosby. She's been criticized for being too inexperienced for the role she was elected to, but Woods, the Baltimore attorney, said her accomplishments far outweigh her young age.

Should be very interesting. She sounds like the perfect person for the job.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Why is ####ing out of wedlock so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Really?

The answer is that it's not. Or at least I think that's probably way down the list of reasons for the disparity. Sex education is more prevalent in one group and not another. Access to birth control is more prevalent in one group and not another. Money to pay for abortions- and societal acceptance of the practice- is more prevalent in one group and not another. Those are also significant reasons for the disparity.

I'm not treating your posts on this whole "black kids being born out of wedlock are the problem!" thing seriously because I think it's pointless. First, I think the premise that two-parent families make a huge difference is mostly nonsense. Having two parents probably helps children a little bit, but most of the data shows correlation, not causation. Second, to the extent that it is a problem, there are already some obvious solutions that I would fully support. Increased funding for sex education for poorer areas of the country. Easy access to birth control in those areas. Unfettered access to abortions and financial assistance to those who seek them but can't afford them. Reform of our ridiculous drug laws so we stop incarcerating potential husbands for victimless crimes. There you go, problem solved. Is that gonna end unfair treatment of the black community by law enforcement? Is if going to put them on equal footing when it comes to financial opportunity?

Finally- yesterday I misread a post about raw birth numbers and cited birth rates instead. I apologized for it. I understand the difference between the two. Stop being a smug ####### about it.

You can not be serious.

I think it matters- as the rest of the post indicates- but I think my colleague here is vastly overstating its importance.

Here's a good link to explain my perspective. Yes, it matters, but it's impossible to isolate the fact that you have two parents from other factors associated with two-parent households that also have a positive effect on children- more money, older parents, parents more inclined to be active in child-rearing, etc. Bottom line:

Making single parents get married, in other words, won't fundamentally change the other characteristics about them that really drive their children's success. The good news in this is that family income and parenting skills are more realistically addressed through public policy than marriage anyway.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

As for your experience and how it relates to the bigger picture- would the world be a better place if more people had two awesome parents? Sure, of course. So what? Single parenthood is a symptom of a problem, not an isolated problem. This goes back to my whole rant about the difference between demanding accountability in individuals (fine and dandy) and expecting it across large segments of the population (pointless and absurd).

I disagree, I feel it is very much as isolated problem. But for the sake of argument, lets say I agree that it's a symptom of a larger problem - what is that larger problem?

I don't follow your argument here at all, sorry. What exactly are you saying with respect to black people in America and single parenthood? What do you think is the reason for the high rate of children born out of wedlock, if not external forces?

You know what I think, I've said it multiple times. The oft-cited 70% figure is a function of a variety of forces, primarily (1) across the board reductions in marriage rates and birth rates in marriage skewing the % even though birth rates (the far more important figure because it isolates the statistic) for unmarried black women are actually on a long and steady decline, and (2) poverty, incarceration and death making a large % of black men less than ideal marriage candidates.

But apparently you disagree with this? If so, what do you think?

Again, birth rates aren't nearly as important as you're attempting to make them. We went over this yesterday - case in point the black population grew by 40% in the 20 years from 1990 to 2010 even with a declining birth rate, and at the same time was making up larger and larger % of the total US population (again, during a time of a declining birth rate). The statistic is that there are roughly 1.6M black children born out of wedlock per year today, roughly 3 times the actual number of the same from 50 years ago. That's the "isolated statistic." With mortality rates being what they are from a group of people that's only ~50m, we could easily see a situation where 2/3rds of the entire black population in this country was born out of wedlock in the next 2 decades.As for your "across the board reductions in marriage", that's not really true either. It's roughly twice as likely today than it was in 1960 for white and Latino individuals to not marry, but 4 times as likely for blacks.

As to your point 2) so you're saying that poverty, incarceration and death makes black males less than ideal marriage candidates, but more than fine to have 1.6m children a year with? Shouldn't those two be connected? I mean, if a guy is poor, in jail, or dead and thus you don't want to marry, then why (or in the case of death, how) are you having kids with them?

As for what I think is the reason - lots of things, and honestly if I knew what it was I wouldn't be doing what I do. Some thoughts - It's brought on itself (child without a 2 parent household more likely have to have children out of wedlock themselves). Being easier to acquire different forms of welfare when a single parent. Seeing it in their own communities. Regardless of what the reason or reasons are, this is likely a problem/symptom where you don't need to know the reason to come up with a solution. What do you think a good solution would be?

Because people like to ####, and sometimes they don't use protection. Do you really not know that? I think you probably know that.

No ###. I think you've found a root cause to this symptom/problem. Moreover, why is so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Regardless, what's your solution?This is yet another instance of me actually putting some time into a post and backing it up with information to attempt to have a serious conversation with you about an issue and you come back with this type of response.

I also find it terribly funny that just yesterday you didn't understand what a "birth rate" really meant and how to apply it, and today you feel it's "the far more important figure."

Why is ####ing out of wedlock so much more prevalent in one group and not in another? Really?

The answer is that it's not. Or at least I think that's probably way down the list of reasons for the disparity. Sex education is more prevalent in one group and not another. Access to birth control is more prevalent in one group and not another. Money to pay for abortions- and societal acceptance of the practice- is more prevalent in one group and not another. Those are also significant reasons for the disparity.

I'm not treating your posts on this whole "black kids being born out of wedlock are the problem!" thing seriously because I think it's pointless. First, I think the premise that two-parent families make a huge difference is mostly nonsense. Having two parents probably helps children a little bit, but most of the data shows correlation, not causation. Second, to the extent that it is a problem, there are already some obvious solutions that I would fully support. Increased funding for sex education for poorer areas of the country. Easy access to birth control in those areas. Unfettered access to abortions and financial assistance to those who seek them but can't afford them. Reform of our ridiculous drug laws so we stop incarcerating potential husbands for victimless crimes. There you go, problem solved. Is that gonna end unfair treatment of the black community by law enforcement? Is if going to put them on equal footing when it comes to financial opportunity?

Finally- yesterday I misread a post about raw birth numbers and cited birth rates instead. I apologized for it. I understand the difference between the two. Stop being a smug ####### about it.

You can not be serious.

There's a fair amount of research supporting that position (see The Nurture Assumption by ... I can't remember her name right now), but it's a really complicated thing to study and there are conflicting results that will bear differing interpretations. It deserves its own thread, perhaps, but neither position can be fairly dismissed as obviously unserious.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Sex education is more prevalent in one group and not another. Access to birth control is more prevalent in one group and not another. Money to pay for abortions- and societal acceptance of the practice- is more prevalent in one group and not another. Those are also significant reasons for the disparity.

If the reason why black women have children out of wedlock is because they can't afford abortions or abortions are allegedly less accepted among black people, then why is the abortion rate so much higher for black women than any other group?

"An African-American woman is almost five times likelier to have an abortion than a white woman, and a Latina more than twice as likely, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." (Abortion's Racial Gap)

 

[Jack White]

What are the odds in Vegas that Moseby will bring charges against her "cousins"?

 

[RCon]

No, let's try new stuff, like the stuff Hillary just proposed. Have you read her speech yet?

I haven't read her speech. Can you boil down the specific policy proposals she offered? Before you start, please don't include platitudes, just actual specific policies.