Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (1 Viewer)

[Apple Jack]

Just said bodie because he caught a few beatings from herc and carver.

 

[Apple Jack]

Heroin, not heroine, use is the user's choice. Trying to justify killing corner boys because they were born into that life is asinine.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Shall we place our predictions on whether Baltimore's State Attorney Marilyn Mosby will charge the officers?

I say, yes, she will. Put it in a jury's hands.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Heroin, not heroine, use is the users choice to use. Trying to justify killing corner boys because they were born into that life is asinine.

So then don't judge him, what's your estimate on his body count?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I guess I'll just ask it: who are we talking about here? I'm a huge believer in Constitutional rights to the max, every one of them but here's an honest question - how many people die at the result of the junk a heroine/narcotics dealer sells over the course of say a five year career? How many died as the bloody harvest of Gray's business?

This is a ridiculous and silly argument for any number of reasons, but since you asked: looks like annual deaths in the US from heroin overdose is somewhere in the neighborhood of 8,000.

Of course if you're arguing that we should suspend Constitutional rights to save lives you'll have vastly more success if you focus your attention two Amendments up.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

8000 deaths from how many users?

 

[Sweet J]

it`s called a ''Rough Ride'' within the law enforcement community

Has anyone reported yet that he was arrested leading to this treatment for a reason other than daring to look at an officer in the eyes?

Running in public?

While Black

1. He was chased by the Police simply by running (he should have remembered to treat police like any other wild animal -- sudden movements will attract attention and pursuit).

2. He was arrested for having a switchblade on him (which they didn't know about until they caught him and searched him. But whatever).

 

[Jack White]

Just saw a stat from CNN -

Killed by police in 2014:

African American - 233

White - 414

Hispanic - 138

Asian - 15

Unreported Race - 311

Couple thoughts on this:

1. These are only the reported deaths. There are many more which go unreported.

2. It confirms what I've said on multiple occasions: this is not a race issue, it's a police killing civilians issue.

Is this based on anything other than your hatred for cops?

Not at all. Reporting all deaths caused by police officers is optional for police departments.

 

[TobiasFunke]

8000 deaths from how many users?

Do you not know about Google?

 

[Jack White]

I guess I'll just ask it: who are we talking about here? I'm a huge believer in Constitutional rights to the max, every one of them but here's an honest question - how many people die at the result of the junk a heroine/narcotics dealer sells over the course of say a five year career? How many died as the bloody harvest of Gray's business?

The War on Drugs takes far more casualties than the drugs themselves.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

5 deaths per 100K for black males.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/03/04/the-rate-of-heroin-overdose-deaths-has-nearly-tripled-in-just-three-years/

Not a lot. But still damage is done.

 

[TobiasFunke]

5 deaths per 100K for black males.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/03/04/the-rate-of-heroin-overdose-deaths-has-nearly-tripled-in-just-three-years/

Not a lot. But still damage is done.

And it's my understanding that Freddie Gray was responsible for at least 2 per 100K. So good news!

Seriously, this is a terrible argument/fishing trip. Even for a Friday

 

[Parrothead]

5 deaths per 100K for black males.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/03/04/the-rate-of-heroin-overdose-deaths-has-nearly-tripled-in-just-three-years/

Not a lot. But still damage is done.

5 deaths per 100K for black males.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/03/04/the-rate-of-heroin-overdose-deaths-has-nearly-tripled-in-just-three-years/

Not a lot. But still damage is done.

And it's my understanding that Freddie Gray was responsible for at least 2 per 100K. So good news!

Seriously, this is a terrible argument/fishing trip. Even for a Friday

agreed.. I'm a SID fan, but this argument is

by this logic cops should be picking off bartenders..

 

[matttyl]

Just saw a stat from CNN -

Killed by police in 2014:

African American - 233

White - 414

Hispanic - 138

Asian - 15

Unreported Race - 311

Oops

Two things. Number 1, I am surprised to learn that cops killed 1,111 American last year.

Number 2, we know the race of 800 of those people. Since African-Americans make up 13% of the population, 104 cop-related deaths would equal their percentage of the overall population. Instead, African-Americans were killed by police at 2.5 times more than that.

Also, a proportionate basis, there would have been 616 killings of white people, who make up 77% of the population.

To be fair, if we're playing this game, shouldn't be only be looking at the population of criminals/violent criminals/people being arrested/those having contact potentially frequently with the police?

Also I think the much more relevant statistic would be kills of unarmed people. Nobody has a problem with cops killing someone who is shooting at them.

Good thought. Where is that data? I just did a very quick google search and came across the wiki list of police involved killings from January of this year, found here. There are 43 cases listed, but race isn't spelled out at all. What the majority of those cases all have in common, though, is that the deceased had a weapon at the time (either gun, knife, vehicle being used as a weapon, or in one case a snow shovel). There were also a small number of what can only be described as accidents with unarmed people (drunk lying in the road at 4 am on New Year's day).

 

[Jack White]

Shall we place our predictions on whether Baltimore's State Attorney Marilyn Mosby will charge the officers?

I say, yes, she will. Put it in a jury's hands.

Seems unlikely.

If there are charges, they will be minor. This will allow her to say, "See, I can be impartial even though I come from a cop family" while also making sure the cops can get off lightly.

 

[The_Man]

Man, Mayor SRB has always acted imperious, but her performance during this entire thing has been a disaster:

“I know that my presence can be a calming presence and can be a flashpoint,” she said on CNN’s “New Day.”

“I’m not going to risk inserting myself — you know, it might look good to some people — but I’m not going to insert myself in a situation that we know is potentially hostile and very fragile, when I have leaders like Elijah Cummings and Senator Pugh who are willing to stand in and do that work that needs to be done,” she said.

Meanwhile, the brand new white Republican Governor was strolling down Pennsylvania Avenue yesterday, shaking hands and making friends. He has completely owned the situation; the situation has owned Rawlings Blake. What a complete failure of leadership.

 

[matttyl]

I guess I'll just ask it: who are we talking about here? I'm a huge believer in Constitutional rights to the max, every one of them but here's an honest question - how many people die at the result of the junk a heroine/narcotics dealer sells over the course of say a five year career? How many died as the bloody harvest of Gray's business?

Heroin-related deaths in Maryland spiked 88 percent from 2011 to 2013

It's a Washington Post article, which I think is approved here, right?

 

[Parrothead]

Man, Mayor SRB has always acted imperious, but her performance during this entire thing has been a disaster:

“I know that my presence can be a calming presence and can be a flashpoint,” she said on CNN’s “New Day.”

“I’m not going to risk inserting myself — you know, it might look good to some people — but I’m not going to insert myself in a situation that we know is potentially hostile and very fragile, when I have leaders like Elijah Cummings and Senator Pugh who are willing to stand in and do that work that needs to be done,” she said.

Meanwhile, the brand new white Republican Governor was strolling down Pennsylvania Avenue yesterday, shaking hands and making friends. He has completely owned the situation; the situation has owned Rawlings Blake. What a complete failure of leadership.

but she is adorable

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It was a question. I don't want to counter post or argue over it. I guess it occurred to me that the police were getting a known heroine dealer out of the neighborhood. However it looks like he didn't have any drugs on him. At some point a guy runs because he figured the cops will just pick him up and he doesn't want to go to jail; then the cops see him run and use that as justification to haul him in. It's a vicious cycle. - On the other hand I'm guessing drug dealers are a major scourge for that neighborhood and cops are trying to keep guys like that off the street. OTOOH Gray has a right to live like every other citizen and if he's out of the business to get on with his life. But let's face it in Gray's line of work in the past he has very likely hurt people through his product. His own mother was an addict and look what it did to his life, he just perpetuated that to others. Sadly one way or another this is how this cycle often ends, tragedy.

 

[General Tso]

Heroin, not heroine, use is the user's choice. Trying to justify killing corner boys because they were born into that life is asinine.

That might be the most idiotic thing you've ever said, and that's saying something. 99.9% of every heroin user is addicted and using against their own will. You've obviously never worked with drug addicts.

 

[timschochet]

Man, Mayor SRB has always acted imperious, but her performance during this entire thing has been a disaster:

I know that my presence can be a calming presence and can be a flashpoint, she said on CNNs New Day.

Im not going to risk inserting myself you know, it might look good to some people but Im not going to insert myself in a situation that we know is potentially hostile and very fragile, when I have leaders like Elijah Cummings and Senator Pugh who are willing to stand in and do that work that needs to be done, she said.

Meanwhile, the brand new white Republican Governor was strolling down Pennsylvania Avenue yesterday, shaking hands and making friends. He has completely owned the situation; the situation has owned Rawlings Blake. What a complete failure of leadership.

I really felt this way when the riots were happening, but Dr Detroit in this thread made me rethink it. She was faced with some very difficult choices; the governor has not been. And nobody died in the riots.

 

[The_Man]

Mosby press conference at 10:30.

Also, word is that the Medical Examiner's report is complete. Hoping she lays out the timetable for charging decision to be made. Not going to be today, as had been the rumor earlier in the week

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Tim they found a body in a semi truck outside one if the CVS's. sounds like someone died to me. The source is a post further up bye, ie if that is correct.

 

[timschochet]

The clean up of the area around the CVS by the community has been remarkable. A lot of people stepping up.

 

[timschochet]

Tim they found a body in a semi truck outside one if the CVS's. sounds like someone died to me. The source is a post further up bye, ie if that is correct.

thats awful. But the point still stands. It could have been much worse.

 

[The_Man]

Man, Mayor SRB has always acted imperious, but her performance during this entire thing has been a disaster:

I know that my presence can be a calming presence and can be a flashpoint, she said on CNNs New Day.

Im not going to risk inserting myself you know, it might look good to some people but Im not going to insert myself in a situation that we know is potentially hostile and very fragile, when I have leaders like Elijah Cummings and Senator Pugh who are willing to stand in and do that work that needs to be done, she said.

Meanwhile, the brand new white Republican Governor was strolling down Pennsylvania Avenue yesterday, shaking hands and making friends. He has completely owned the situation; the situation has owned Rawlings Blake. What a complete failure of leadership.

I really felt this way when the riots were happening, but Dr Detroit in this thread made me rethink it. She was faced with some very difficult choices; the governor has not been. And nobody died in the riots.

I'm not talking primarily about the tactical decisions being made in the heat of the moment Monday afternoon and evening. I'm talking about her complete invisibility and failure to deliver a vision for a peaceful community coming together and moving forward. Think about Giuliani or Bush following 9/11. For that matter, look at the example I gave yesterday of the Governor walking the street where the riot had been - eating in local restaurants and buying a snowball from a vendor - demonstrating an image of calm and restored order, but also just being present.

The Mayor has been walled up in City Hall, counting on other "leaders... who are willing to stand in and do that work that needs to be done."

It's the difference between being a manager and a leader. Right now, Baltimore needs a leader and she is not doing the job.

 

[timschochet]

OK that's a fair criticism. I guess in terms of evaluating her job, I care more about the managing part. But I see your point.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Man if you're bringing up Katrina we had the trifecta, our mayor was AWOL and lost his mind and our governor froze up like an icicle. At least your governor got hold of the situation by the next day.

 

[Apple Jack]

Heroin, not heroine, use is the user's choice. Trying to justify killing corner boys because they were born into that life is asinine.

That might be the most idiotic thing you've ever said, and that's saying something. 99.9% of every heroin user is addicted and using against their own will. You've obviously never worked with drug addicts.

Says the most mocked poster in the history of the site.

I was a heroin addict for seven years. And yes, I have also "worked with drug addicts." But what would I know.

 

[The_Man]

Mosby going to make "a major announcement." Rumor is charging decision won't be made until June.

Riot police right now flooding Freddie Gray's neighborhood in advance of the announcement.

This might put a damper on my weekend.

 

[Apple Jack]

Heroin, not heroine, use is the users choice to use. Trying to justify killing corner boys because they were born into that life is asinine.

So then don't judge him, what's your estimate on his body count?

People he has killed? Zero.

Again, your implication that there was justification for his killing is pathetic.

 

[timschochet]

I'm waiting for my man...

Heroin dealers are not exactly my idea of the best our society have to offer. But neither they, no anyone else, deserve to die unlawfully at the hands of police.

 

[Apple Jack]

Mosby going to make "a major announcement." Rumor is charging decision won't be made until June.

Riot police right now flooding Freddie Gray's neighborhood in advance of the announcement.

This might put a damper on my weekend.

Beach boozin' in Rehobeth down?

 

[The_Man]

Wonder what all these fine gentlemen are doing on Pennsylvania Avenue this Friday morning.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Heroin, not heroine, use is the user's choice. Trying to justify killing corner boys because they were born into that life is asinine.

That might be the most idiotic thing you've ever said, and that's saying something. 99.9% of every heroin user is addicted and using against their own will. You've obviously never worked with drug addicts.

Says the most mocked poster in the history of the site.

I was a heroin addict for seven years. And yes, I have also "worked with drug addicts." But what would I know.

Dug addicts (the ones not born into it thru the womb) are responsible for choosing to put that drug into the body ...its a choice ...yes or no...simple

 

[Apple Jack]

I'm waiting for my man...

Heroin dealers are not exactly my idea of the best our society have to offer. But neither they, no anyone else, deserve to die unlawfully at the hands of police.

Of course not, but we are products of our environment to a large degree, especially at young ages, and that's the environment. Those of the jobs that pay. That is the way to be cool, when that is important. It's a way to have a sense of identity.

 

[timschochet]

I'm waiting for my man...

Heroin dealers are not exactly my idea of the best our society have to offer. But neither they, no anyone else, deserve to die unlawfully at the hands of police.

Of course not, but we are products of our environment to a large degree, especially at young ages, and that's the environment. Those of the jobs that pay. That is the way to be cool, when that is important. It's a way to have a sense of identity.

Yeah maybe. To be honest, whenever I hear these environment arguments, I kind of come down in between. Certainly it plays a huge role. But on the other hand, not everyone (or even most people) born in areas like that become heroin dealers. Let's not pretend these are good people here.

 

[The_Man]

Oh, crap. Sounds like some government offices are telling their workers to shut down at 2 p.m. today.

 

[Apple Jack]

To use in the first place is a choice. Maintenance/addiction is a much more complicated set of variables.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

I'm waiting for my man...

Heroin dealers are not exactly my idea of the best our society have to offer. But neither they, no anyone else, deserve to die unlawfully at the

hands of police.

Of course not, but we are products of our environment to a large degree, especially at

young ages, and that's the environment. Those of the jobs that pay. That is the way to be cool, when that is important. It's a way to have a sense of identity.

I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me.

 

[jonessed]

Arguing whether heroine dealers are good people with a recovering heroine addict.

This forum can be so awesome at times

 

[Apple Jack]

I'm waiting for my man...

Heroin dealers are not exactly my idea of the best our society have to offer. But neither they, no anyone else, deserve to die unlawfully at the hands of police.

Of course not, but we are products of our environment to a large degree, especially at young ages, and that's the environment. Those of the jobs that pay. That is the way to be cool, when that is important. It's a way to have a sense of identity.

Yeah maybe.To be honest, whenever I hear these environment arguments, I kind of come down in between. Certainly it plays a huge role. But on the other hand, not everyone (or even most people) born in areas like that become heroin dealers. Let's not pretend these are good people here.

Shocking.

Whenever one person is trying to just justify the killing of somebody and another is making up straw men, I kind of come down in between.

 

[Hang 10]

Ricky Bobby once wanted to be a crack dealer but a nice one.

 

[Apple Jack]

Arguing whether heroine dealers are good people with a recovering heroine addict.

This forum can be so awesome at times

never more so than the ongoing huckleberry cleaver contingent; experts in every matter, especially those of which they know nothing.

 

[timschochet]

I'm glad you kicked the habit Apple Jack. I can only imagine how tough that must have been.

 

[MattFancy]

10:45 AM
Justin Fenton @justin_fenton
Mosby says #FreddieGray's death was ruled a homicide after autopsy

 

[Jack White]

Oh, crap. Sounds like some government offices are telling their workers to shut down at 2 p.m. today.

Can we get them to never come back?

 

[The_Man]

Homicide. All officers to be charged.

Officers did not have probable cause to arrest Gray, Mosby says, was an illegal arrest.

 

[The_Man]

Critical neck injury was a result of being handcuffed but not secured in the wagon, Mosby says

 

[The_Man]

Officers Porter & Goodson checked on status, Gray said he could not breathe. Said twice he needed a medic. At no point secured him