timschochet
Footballguy
Hes not trolling. Conservative blogosphere is going absolutely crazy right now completely reversing themselves about how the process works. "rogue prosecutor", "giving in to the rioters" etc. It's kind of hilarious.
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Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gary Coal Man
- Start date
Jack White
Footballguy
The_Man
Footballguy
Are there restrictions on what days or times you're allowed to fly, or destinations you're allowed to fly to?
Jack White
Footballguy
The_Man
Footballguy
That is catnip to Jon Stewart. There will be hundreds of clips to choose from demonstrating the complete hypocrisy.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The FOP calling for her to recuse herself due to conflict and to appoint an independent Special Prosecutor is also a pretty funny display of irony. Or hypocrisy. Or both. Anyway, it's funny as hell.
G
General Tso
Guest
you can't foreee a scenario where he broke his neck through an accident in the back of the van? The cops are certainly at fault for not securing him. If nothing else comes out of this tragedy, let's at least agree to fix that. They also appear negligent in not getting him medical attention more quickly. But I need more info here because this is a very slippery slope. You realize that when you open this up you are probably going to have a rash of prisoners feigning injuries, right? Every time a guy gets taken down by police and says "I can't breath" are we immediately going to take his word for it and have him rushed to the emergency room? You see where this could go? Some level of police judgment is always going to be required.But it's a big jump to go from reckless endangerment and negligence to an act of murder. Honestly, I really do hope that there's some good evidence that we haven't seen yet pointing towards a rough ride. This would honestly be the best case scenario for everyone. But I haven't seen such evidence yet. Patiently waiting....
KCitons
Footballguy
Meh. I don't get too worked up over outrageous blogs, media, etc., especially those that are generally biased towards one political extreme or the other. Their primary job is to draw ratings, generate page views and clicks, etc. Making outrageous claims regardless of facts helps do that.
I would prefer it if everyone here would debate others here, rather than debating against external sources. It's the equivalent of a strawman argument, IMO.
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General Tso
Guest
oh ok. I thought he was directing that at the people in this thread. I've specifically been called badge licker before.The Conservatives have nothing to complain about with conflict of interest. I said last night that Moseby has equal conflicts of interest in both sides. Someone jokingly asked if two negatives cancel each other out. Not sure if that's the way it works, but my point was that the Left has been dealing with an unfair playing field for years when it comes to police indictments having to be handed down by Prosecutors who they work so closely with on a daily basis.
What we really need is an independent prosecution system for instances involving police - one without any conflict of interest. Maybe a federal system??
The charge is depraved heart murder. http://time.com/3843388/freddie-gray-depraved-heart-murder/
"To put that in layman’s terms, the charge of second degree depraved heart murder means that the prosecution thinks that the officer in question displayed “wanton indifference” to Freddie Gray’s life, and did not care whether or not the way he was being treated would result in his death. It is a heavier charge than negligent or involuntary manslaughter — depraved heart murder suggests that the perpetrator knew the act in question was dangerous and didn’t care.
As the Maryland Court of Special Appeals noted in 1991, the malice involved in that charge can be either an act of malice (using the example of driving a car into a crowd, not specifically intending to kill a particular person but with complete disregard for the fact that it was likely a death would result) or of omission (not doing something, such that you knew that failure to do so would likely kill someone)."
The not doing something in this case would be Not restraining Freddie Gray in the back of the paddy wagon while giving him a long and winding tour of Baltimore.
eta: Also noting that the driver of the wagon stopped mulitple times to check on Mr Gray but never once offered up or called for medical assistance for him even though he was in clear distress and even responded in the affirmative when asked if he neede medical attention. That is depraved indifference to life, imo.
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The_Man
Footballguy
That letter was issued suspiciously close to the start of the press conference. I wonder if the warrants had already been issued and some cops tipped off the union who then sent the letter - an attempt to smear her, since they knew the charges were coming down anyway.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
I was making a fervent exaggeration..
G
General Tso
Guest
The obvious - when you put someone in handcuffs on a bench in the back of a van without a seatbelt you are endangering that person's life. Cops will tell you that the reason they don't buckke in most prisoners is because of the danger of being bitten. But that excuse sucks. It represents a blatant disregard for the rights of a prisoner.
G
General Tso
Guest
You do realize the ramifications of such a blanket procedure, right? You now need to take a cop off the streets for 3 or 4 hours to stay with him in the emergency room. Not to mention the security risk. If that's what society wants, fine. But don't complain when you start seeing the negative consequences that come out of such a cautious approach, that's all.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
Lets face it the dude most probably got hurt on the takedown. Starts complaining he is hurt (which they all do) because they would rather delay going to jail. Point being these cops are guilty of being conditioned to ignore these injury complaints because 99% are bogus. In the end they should always call the medics.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
They should arrest all the people those cops previously arrested who complained about injuries and charge them IMO
matttyl
Footballguy
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General Tso
Guest
I thought I read that the driver did call for medical attention.I'm not quite onboard with the idea that not harnessing Gray would amount to an omission that would LIKELY kill someone.
The author of this article is pretty clearly on tilt. His blog normally contains well reasoned posts about economics. The post I linked to is mostly an outpouring of emotion. But it succeeded in getting me to think about riots in a way that I had not thought about them previously, and parts of it make sense.
Mohawk
Footballguy
Very Interesting read:
David Simon On Baltimore's Anguish
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share-tools&utm_source=facebook&utm_content=post-top
David Simon On Baltimore's Anguish
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share-tools&utm_source=facebook&utm_content=post-top
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
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General Tso
Guest
I just heard State's Attorney Moseby on the radio. My God she sounds young and inexperienced. "Our time is now!"
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General Tso
Guest
Boy it's amazing how history gets written and rewritten. So the crackdown on drugs and crime in Baltimore is the fault of the Government and the Police? It had nothing to do with the voters or the citizens of Baltimore, eh?Martin O'Malley didnt stage a coup and forcibly take over the Baltimore Mayorship. The focus of his entire campaign was to be tough on crime and take back the streets from the drug dealers. He did exactly what the people of Baltimore asked him to do.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
One thing to keep in mind about riots in recent US history, in a way be "thankful" it's "just" businesses being destroyed, because when they attack the police stations and city hall, then it's a revolution.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I have a friend with family in England and I do a fair amount of work with folks over there, big questions about what is going on over here. "Is the racism that bad?" That kind of thing, we're looking bad on the works stage.
G
General Tso
Guest
Yup. The Left once again took a legitimate issue (police brutality) and framed it within the context of white racism. This despite a black Mayor, black Police Chief, and a police force that is predominantly minority. It's an interesting phenomenon, and it must be totally perplexing to the rest of the world.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You are either not paying attention or being disingenuous. The issue has always been framed within the context of racist policing and racism in the American justice system. The color of the officer or public officials has never been particularly important to anyone on the "protest" side. That's why people have been citing disparities in traffic stops and arrests and sentencing with little concern for the race of the officers or the judges or the juries. That's why nobody in Baltimore or elsewhere particularly cares about the races of the officers charged today, which is still unknown.
There are some who have tried to cast it as an issue of white racism by pointing to the racial makeup of police forces, but that's mostly a distraction and a creation of the media IMO. The only other people who are casting it this way are whiny white people who want to feel like they are being unfairly persecuted.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Can you link to all of these blogs? I checked NRO, WND, Newsmax, RedState, HotAir, TownHall, Little Green Footballs.. and none of them seem all that outraged. Are any of these people that apparently read mainstream in any way?
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General Tso
Guest
So your argument is that there is anti-black racism even amongst black police and black cities? Please expand upon this theory because it interests the hell out of me.
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
I haven't heard or seen any of these either. Let the facts come out and the process play out. But nice again to see Bucky troling again, and then Tim backing him up with nonsense.
timschochet
Footballguy
I was reading Free Republic. Now I'm listening to the Sean Hannity show and he is outraged.
jonessed
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
FWIW, interesting article that touches on that. -
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share-tools&utm_source=facebook&utm_content=post-top
Don't know Free Republic, but using Hannity as an example is really dumb. Hannity has one job: to be outraged. If it's not this, then it's something else. His entire schtick is being outraged.
Jack White
Footballguy
Thanks for posting this.
Everyone who lurks or posts in this thread -- hell, everyone in the US -- would do well to read this.
Even David Simon haters.
dgreen
Footballguy
The concept of black police officers treating black civilians differently than white civilians is hardly a new argument.
Jack White
Footballguy
The David Simon piece linked earlier addresses the race issue and the "black cop vs. black victim" dynamics.
Again, a must-read.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
No, the argument, or one of them anyway, is that law enforcement discriminates against the black community in a variety of ways. And it's not really an "argument"- it's been proven with statistic after statistic even after accounting for variables like geography, criminal history and socioeconomic factors. The racial makeup of the city, the police department, city officials or whatever is interesting fodder for some members of the media prone to oversimplification and for conservatives trying to play a stupid game of "gotcha." But it's basically irrelevant.
Do you really think if the officers charged in Gray's death were revealed to be 4 black people and two Hispanic people the protestors would just say "oh, our mistake!" and go home? Of course not. It didn't matter that the supervising officer in the Garner incident was black. And it won't matter here. If you don't get that ... if you literally see all race-related issues as black people vs white people ... I don't know what else to tell you.
ETA: I should add, since you mentioned it earlier, that generic police brutality regardless of the race of the victim IS an element of the anger and the protests as well. I don't get the feeling that it's all about race, although that's obviously the bulk of it. The suppression of media coverage has also been part of it, at least in Ferguson.
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Jack White
Footballguy
I'm not in favor of violent revolution.
But I can't agree with you on this.
I can't be "thankful" that rioters and criminal opportunists target private businesses that the "serve-and-protect" enforcers refuse to serve and protect.
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General Tso
Guest
yeah, that article keeps getting cited.- Drug problem in Baltimore, a largely black community
- Residents want the streets cleaned up. Elect a tough on crime Mayor.
- The Mayor does what he is elected to do and cleans up the streets.
- Police brutality becomes a. Issue countrywide. It hits Baltimore.
- Minority community riots and protests systemic racism.
matttyl
Footballguy
I've read this, twice now. What would you say to Tso who asks (and I don't want to misquote him) what did they expect when they voted in Martin O'Malley who's entire campaign was to stop crime?
The article has a bolded line on the left reading...."“The drug war began it, certainly, but the stake through the heart of police procedure in Baltimore was Martin O’Malley.”" That's who they voted in and he wasn't vague about what he'd do as Mayor of the city when he ran in 1999, won, and then was reelected 4 years later. If they didn't like his politics, why vote for him and then reelect him?
Again, this was Tso's thought, but at first blush I'd have to agree.
Jack White
Footballguy
Police union reps coming up!
This ought to be good.
This ought to be good.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
The color of the officer or public official might not have been of particular importance to you, but it's untrue to say it's of no particular importance to anyone on the protest side. There are certainly many protesters who are far more outraged when the officer involved in the incident or the public official who declines to pursue charges are white, and in those instances the race of the parties involved is of particular importance because it harkens to the past.
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm troubled by this prosecution.
I don't want to assume this is political, and I don't agree with rockaction's accusation that it's a collective prosecution against all police misconduct. But there are some things about it which really troubles me. This is a rather complicated case, and it took them a rather short time to lay charges. It troubled me when the prosecutor said today, "You said no justice no peace and I listened to you!" That sounds political to me. It doesn't feel right.
In the Michael Brown case, because there wasn't clear cut evidence either way, my gut told me that Darren Wilson probably committed an unlawful murder because the notion of an unarmed Brown turning around and charging him seemed so unlikely. I still believe that. In this case, my gut tells me that, whatever mistakes these officers made, they didn't intentionally mean to kill this guy or seriously harm him. Why? Because it makes no sense. What makes sense is that they were unaware how serious his situation was, thought he was whining, and ignored him. If I'm right, they deserve to be disciplined for that, maybe even be removed from the force and face some jail time perhaps. But 20 years imprisonment? Murder and manslaughter? That doesn't seem right to me. Again evidence may come in that will change my mind, and for the sake of the prosecution, I hope it does.
But honestly I'm not seeing this.
I don't want to assume this is political, and I don't agree with rockaction's accusation that it's a collective prosecution against all police misconduct. But there are some things about it which really troubles me. This is a rather complicated case, and it took them a rather short time to lay charges. It troubled me when the prosecutor said today, "You said no justice no peace and I listened to you!" That sounds political to me. It doesn't feel right.
In the Michael Brown case, because there wasn't clear cut evidence either way, my gut told me that Darren Wilson probably committed an unlawful murder because the notion of an unarmed Brown turning around and charging him seemed so unlikely. I still believe that. In this case, my gut tells me that, whatever mistakes these officers made, they didn't intentionally mean to kill this guy or seriously harm him. Why? Because it makes no sense. What makes sense is that they were unaware how serious his situation was, thought he was whining, and ignored him. If I'm right, they deserve to be disciplined for that, maybe even be removed from the force and face some jail time perhaps. But 20 years imprisonment? Murder and manslaughter? That doesn't seem right to me. Again evidence may come in that will change my mind, and for the sake of the prosecution, I hope it does.
But honestly I'm not seeing this.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
So a message board and a talk radio head. No bloggers. Hardly seems like the "conservative blogosphere is going crazy."
Can you be specific about what Hannity even said?
timschochet
Footballguy
All right. I was only pointing out that Bucky had a point and that if he was reading'/hearing the same stuff I was, he wasn't trolling. I don't think it's ridiculous at all for conservatives, or anyone, to be reasonably troubled, from what we know, about this prosecution. As I just wrote, upon reflection I'm troubled by it.
Jack White
Footballguy
I recommended it because I think it's someone with a unique perspective. He's explaining things in a way you'll never hear in the mainstream media, or during a political campaign.
As for O'Malley, I doubt he was explicit with voters about how he was going to "juke" the stats in his bid to hold political power for umpteen years.
timschochet
Footballguy
Yeah. "This is a political prosecution. None of these charges will hold up. There is a conflict of interest. This woman should recuse herself." Etc. You get the general idea.
