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Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (1 Viewer)

As we scurried away some dirty Hopkins hippie said "We proved our point"

I said "What, that white liberals are a bunch of ineffectual wusses?"

He said that we showed how differently police treat white curfew breakers than black.

So we're actually heroes for running away, which is nice

 
......

Ok,

  • War on Drugs - Right
  • Zero Tolerance policing - Right
  • Mandatory sentencing - Right
  • Accountability in Education - Right
  • Failure of the promise of Privatized schools - Right
  • Contract with America (and the redone Welfare reform among other bills that actually passed)- Right
  • upward redistribution of wealth - Right
  • NIMBY for section 8 voucher - Right
  • Tax breaks and other corporate welfare to lure business - Right
  • Globalization - Right
  • White Flight - Right
  • Surplus military equipment militarizing police departments - Right
  • [Elimination of usury laws - Right
I think Baltimore largely escaped these

  • Property "guilty until proven innocent" seizures
  • Privatized prisons
  • Anti imigration
That is of course after we subtract issues caused by the "Left"

  • Means and qualification based Social Welfare
  • OSHA and EPA requirements making reconstruction of properties contaminated with lead and asbestos among others too costly to address
  • Top heavy administration of schools and just about everything else
  • Unintended consequences of urban renewal projects
  • Among other things
Of course I don't think these groupings are particularly fair as many things are more universal than just "left" vs "right", but hey you said it was necessary. And more importantly how they interplay with each other to create the conditions is more complicated than simple list to hold ideas accountable. But go ahead and believe that you need not care about the fate of others because someone else, certainly not you is to blame. Go ahead and convince yourself that those that "care too much" are winning policy debates.
I think that's a pretty good list but personally I think the biggest factors are (1) the presence of huge projects and horrible overall urban planning, (2) school systems and (3) (for whatever reason) the absence of mixed races, upper/middle classes and small businesses from the "worst" neighborhoods.

 
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So where do we go from here? We both seem to want thoughtful politicians who are going to spend money more wisely, rather than simply increase or decrease the amount spent. How do we find those politicians and get them into office?
Bit of a tangent, but we can't. Not as long as politicians continue to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Politicians do this because it works. Of course, limiting voting to only the informed doesn't really work, as there's not really a good way to identify "the informed". Also, people go into a tizzy about this, for some reason.

Maybe some out of the box thinking is required. How about we don't take away anyone's right to vote. Instead, we continue to allow everyone to vote, but you can EITHER vote in political elections or reality TV shows, but not both.
What's scary is, if given the choice, you know most people would choose the latter.

 
So where do we go from here? We both seem to want thoughtful politicians who are going to spend money more wisely, rather than simply increase or decrease the amount spent. How do we find those politicians and get them into office?
Bit of a tangent, but we can't. Not as long as politicians continue to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Politicians do this because it works. Of course, limiting voting to only the informed doesn't really work, as there's not really a good way to identify "the informed". Also, people go into a tizzy about this, for some reason.

Maybe some out of the box thinking is required. How about we don't take away anyone's right to vote. Instead, we continue to allow everyone to vote, but you can EITHER vote in political elections or reality TV shows, but not both.
What's scary is, if given the choice, you know most people would choose the latter.
That's what makes it a brilliant idea, and why we should implement it ASAP.

 
......

Ok,

  • War on Drugs - Right
  • Zero Tolerance policing - Right
  • Mandatory sentencing - Right
  • Accountability in Education - Right
  • Failure of the promise of Privatized schools - Right
  • Contract with America (and the redone Welfare reform among other bills that actually passed)- Right
  • upward redistribution of wealth - Right
  • NIMBY for section 8 voucher - Right
  • Tax breaks and other corporate welfare to lure business - Right
  • Globalization - Right
  • White Flight - Right
  • Surplus military equipment militarizing police departments - Right
  • [Elimination of usury laws - Right
I think Baltimore largely escaped these

  • Property "guilty until proven innocent" seizures
  • Privatized prisons
  • Anti imigration
That is of course after we subtract issues caused by the "Left"

  • Means and qualification based Social Welfare
  • OSHA and EPA requirements making reconstruction of properties contaminated with lead and asbestos among others too costly to address
  • Top heavy administration of schools and just about everything else
  • Unintended consequences of urban renewal projects
  • Among other things
Of course I don't think these groupings are particularly fair as many things are more universal than just "left" vs "right", but hey you said it was necessary. And more importantly how they interplay with each other to create the conditions is more complicated than simple list to hold ideas accountable. But go ahead and believe that you need not care about the fate of others because someone else, certainly not you is to blame. Go ahead and convince yourself that those that "care too much" are winning policy debates.
I think that's a pretty good list but personally I think the biggest factors are (1) the presence of huge projects and horrible overall urban planning, (2) school systems and (for whatever reason), and (3) the absence of mixed races and small businesses.
The huge "projects" in Baltimore city were blown up fifteen to twenty years ago, The legacy of course remained. Including the NIMBY aspects listed for the displaced.

I don't want to defend the school system too much as I already listed a few problem items but at the same time I think a great deal of educational success comes from the hopes and dreams of the parents and community and the secondary support those communities provide for better or worst.

I also disagree on the small businesses. I think these neighborhoods are almost entirely small businesses (even some that are legit) with the exception of the occasional CVS and rare grocery store. Maybe some known name franchises. "Everyday low prices" haven't made its way into these area but the factories making those items long ago left.

Oh, and the gentrification thread you bumped that I have never read or participated in probably echoes the unintended consequences of urban renewal. I was going to start to read it but seven pages and a year late.

 
  • NIMBY for section 8 voucher - Right
This would be solved with a BIG.

A problem I have with other liberals is the need to micromanage people's lives. If you're going to spend the money then give it directly to them and let them manage their own money.

Not only would BIG be more efficient (less government overhead and waste) it would empower people instead of making them jump through hoops to get money.
If the BIG was enacted what would happen when the inevitable stories about some of the people spending the money on vices come out? Would the voters just accept it as part of human nature or would they demand restrictions on how their tax money gets spent by (some of) the "takers"?

I actually agree that BIG would be better and much more efficient but IMO it's politically impossible.

 
How about we go back to the totally unpopular but likely correct root cause - the breakdown of the black family structure, and see what we can do about fixing that. Once again the Moynihan Report was the subject of discussion today - this time on Meet The Press. Here is a video of the first part of it - http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/the-moynihan-report-50-years-later-438628419800

Since we keep talking about it, I thought I'd post some snippets from the Moynihan Report. As you read this, think about Baltimore, the riots, and the confused unnamed frustration we are seeing from the black community:

There is no one Negro community. There is no one Negro problem. There is no one solution. Nonetheless, at the center of the tangle of pathology is the weakness of the family structure. Once or twice removed, it will be found to be the principal source of most of the aberrant, inadequate, or antisocial behavior that did not establish, but now serves to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and deprivation.A fundamental fact of Negro American family life is the often reversed roles of husband and wife. In 44 percent of the Negro families studied, the wife was dominant, as against 20 percent of white wives. "Whereas the majority of white families are equalitarian, the largest percentage of Negro families are dominated by the wife." The matriarchal pattern of so many Negro families reinforces itself over the generations. This process begins with education. Although the gap appears to be closing at the moment, for a long while, Negro females were better educated than Negro males, and this remains true today for the Negro population as a whole.

Deton Brooks: "In a matriarchal structure, the women are transmitting the culture."

The white family, despite many variants, remains a powerful agency not only for transmitting property from one generation to the next, but also for transmitting no less valuable contracts with the world of education and work. In an earlier age, the Carpenters, Wainwrights, Weavers, Mercers, Farmers, Smiths acquired their names as well as their trades from their fathers and grandfathers. Children today still learn the patterns of work from their fathers even though they may no longer go into the same jobs.

Further, they found that children from homes where fathers are present have significantly higher scores than children in homes without fathers. The influence of the father's presence was then tested within the social classes and school grades for Negroes alone. They found that "a consistent trend within both grades at the lower SES [social class] level appears, and in no case is there a reversal of this trend: for males, females, and the combined group, the IQ's of children with fathers in the home are always higher than those who have no father in the home."

The scores of fifth graders with fathers absent were lower than the scores of first graders with fathers absent, and while the authors point out that it is cross sectional data and does not reveal the duration of the fathers' absence, "What we might be tapping is the cumulative effect of fatherless years."
The combined impact of poverty, failure, and isolation among Negro youth has had the predictable outcome in a disastrous delinquency and crime rate.
Some of the research on the effects of broken homes on delinquent behavior recently surveyed by Thomas F. Pettigrew in A Profile of the Negro American is summarized below, along with several other studies of the question.

Mary Diggs found that three-fourths — twice the expected ratio — of Philadelphia's Negro delinquents who came before the law during 1948 did not live with both their natural parents.

Recent psychological research demonstrates the personality effects of being reared in a disorganized home without a father. One study showed that children from fatherless homes seek immediate gratification of their desires far more than children with fathers present. Others revealed that children who hunger for immediate gratification are more prone to delinquency, along with other less social behavior. Two psychologists, Pettigrew says, maintain that inability to delay gratification is a critical factor in immature, criminal, and neurotic behavior.

"What contemporary slum and minority youth probably lack that similar children in earlier periods possessed is not motivation but some minimal sense of competence.

"We are plagued, in work with these youth, by what appears to be a low tolerance for frustration. They are not able to absorb setbacks. Minor irritants and rebuffs are magnified out of all proportion to reality.

Along with the diminution of white middle class contacts for a large percentage of Negroes, observers report that the Negro churches have all but lost contact with men in the Northern cities as well. This may be a normal condition of urban life, but it is probably a changed condition for the Negro American and cannot be a socially desirable development.

The only religious movement that appears to have enlisted a considerable number of lower class Negro males in Northern cities of late is that of the Black Muslims: a movement based on total rejection of white society, even though it emulates whites more.

The object of this study has been to define a problem, rather than propose solutions to it. However, the argument of this paper does lead to one central conclusion: Whatever the specific elements of a national effort designed to resolve this problem, those elements must be coordinated in terms of one general strategy. What then is that problem? We feel the answer is clear enough. Three centuries of injustice have brought about deep-seated structural distortions in the life of the Negro American. At this point, the present tangle of pathology is capable of perpetuating itself without assistance from the white world. The cycle can be broken only if these distortions are set right.

In a word, a national effort towards the problems of Negro Americans must be directed towards the question of family structure. The object should be to strengthen the Negro family so as to enable it to raise and support its members as do other families. After that, how this group of Americans chooses to run its affairs, take advantage of its opportunities, or fail to do so, is none of the nation's business.

The fundamental importance and urgency of restoring the Negro American Family structure has been evident for some time. E. Franklin Frazier put it most succinctly in 1950: "As the result of family disorganization a large proportion of Negro children and youth have not undergone the socialization which only the family can provide. The disorganized families have failed to provide for their emotional needs and have not provided the discipline and habits which are necessary for personality development. Because the disorganized family has failed in its function as a socializing agency, it has handicapped the children in their relations to the institutions in the community. Moreover, family disorganization has been partially responsible for a large amount of juvenile delinquency and adult crime among Negroes. Since the widespread family disorganization among Negroes has resulted from the failure of the father to play the role in family life required by American society, the mitigation of this problem must await those changes in the Negro and American society which will enable the Negro father to play the role required of him."

Such a national effort could be stated thus: The policy of the United States is to bring the Negro American to full and equal sharing in the responsibilities and rewards of citizenship. To this end, the programs of the Federal government bearing on this objective shall be designed to have the effect, directly or indirectly, of enhancing the stability and resources of the Negro American family.
Incredible, huh? People keep calling this report "prescient", which is a nice way of saying "Holy #### did Moynihan nail it." What's ironic is that the only thing he appears to have gotten wrong is when he concludes that the family breakdown problem will likely get better as we solve the poverty problem. Unfortunately as we have seen the War on Poverty didn’t solve the black problem.

As we see from the Meet The Press video, the issue of poverty has gotten MUCH better since 1965. The black childhood poverty rate has declined from 65.6% to 36.9%. Meanwhile the crime and unemployment rates for blacks have stayed the same or gotten worse. And as we know, the breakdown of the black family has gotten dramatically worse since 1965. Black children living in one parent homes has gone from 33% to 62%.

This obviously isn’t the only root cause, but oh my goodness is there overwhelming evidence that it appears to be the most important root cause. Yet we keep ignoring it. We can’t even talk about it really. It's too much of an emotional issue for blacks, and if white people talk about it they sound like racists. And we saw that today in the panel interview on Meet The Press. Nobody talked about black cultural issues. It's almost as if they are incapable of doing it, even on a segment where the stated purpose was to talk about it. Very sad.

 
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rockaction said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
rockaction said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
General Tso said:
rockaction said:
Rich Lowry. Interesting op-ed. Blames Baltimore's governance, corruption, and policies for Baltimore's problems.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/04/baltimore-a-great-society-failure-117493.html#.VUVzxkL7VT4
It really is the perfect case study for the disastrous effects that exclusive Liberal policies can have on a city. At some point a community and it's people have to look in the mirror.
I think someone in the past few days commented about being lazy and not wanting the truth.
It's true; if you subtract federal aid and programs, state aid and programs, representative government, the policies enacted under that representative government, social and intellectual leanings, and everything else relevant out of the equation, you too can come to the conclusion that somehow the right's policies have hurt Baltimore.
Only if we have to be lazy and not wanting the truth by taking policies and forcing them in to exclusively right and left,buckets. I realize for many the world is only in black and white so grays let alone colors are too much to handle.
I understand your point, but I don't think it's at all lazy to take a policy and generalize whether that policy comes from the left or right of the spectrum. How else would we hold certain ideas and policies accountable for the destruction or success that we've wrought? We do that all the time. Especially with Baltimore, a city that receives massive federal aid, has implemented one of the largest welfare states in the country, has had corrupt one-party rule for fifty years, has one of the highest tax rates in the country, has had some of the highest spending rates on education without results, etc...

The list goes on. I'm not going to mention it or waste any more time on it because it would seem the burden of proof for a failed city rests with the people that advocated and implemented policies that most observers would easily identify as coming from the left.
Ok,

  • War on Drugs - Right
  • Zero Tolerance policing - Right
  • Mandatory sentencing - Right
  • Accountability in Education - Right
  • Failure of the promise of Privatized schools - Right
  • Contract with America (and the redone Welfare reform among other bills that actually passed)- Right
  • upward redistribution of wealth - Right
  • NIMBY for section 8 voucher - Right
  • Tax breaks and other corporate welfare to lure business - Right
  • Globalization - Right
  • White Flight - Right
  • Surplus military equipment militarizing police departments - Right
  • [Elimination of usury laws - Right
I think Baltimore largely escaped these

  • Property "guilty until proven innocent" seizures
  • Privatized prisons
  • Anti imigration
That is of course after we subtract issues caused by the "Left"

  • Means and qualification based Social Welfare
  • OSHA and EPA requirements making reconstruction of properties contaminated with lead and asbestos among others too costly to address
  • Top heavy administration of schools and just about everything else
  • Unintended consequences of urban renewal projects
  • Among other things
Of course I don't think these groupings are particularly fair as many things are more universal than just "left" vs "right", but hey you said it was necessary. And more importantly how they interplay with each other to create the conditions is more complicated than simple list to hold ideas accountable. But go ahead and believe that you need not care about the fate of others because someone else, certainly not you is to blame. Go ahead and convince yourself that those that "care too much" are winning policy debates.
A bunch of these are national policies, and utterly debatable in their premises. The War on Drugs, MMs, globalization, redistribution of income, militarization of police, school accountability, etc. are national issues. I'm talking about why Baltimore's liberal policies have failed.

Other laments are city issues -- every city has or will face them. White flight and NIMBYs result from local needs and policies -- to ascribe them as a uniquely local issue is also incorrect. In addition, Boston, New York, San Francisco, and many other cities are seeing a revitalizing moment. Why isn't Baltimore?

Off of the top of my head, policies that the left enacted in Baltimore -- uniquely local policies involving education, taxes, and policing

Teacher's unioins - Maryland doesn't even have right-to-work - mandatory fees from non-union members to the union- Left

Lousy school choice and charter options - some of the most restrictive laws in the nation - Left

Crony capitalism, or the funneling of funds to connected businesses - Left

Publicly-funded development boondoggles, like Columbus Hall of Exploration - Left

One of the worst business environments in the coutnry per Chamber of Commerce - Left

Fourth in per-pupil school spending in the nation, with disastrous results - Left

Business Taxes - Maryland alone rates 40th in the country - Left

Personal Income Taxes - Maryland rates 45th in the country - Left

Generous Welfare System - almost tops in the nation for comparable cities - Left

Property Tax Rates - twice as high as the rest of the state, which is already high, 12 out of 53 comparable cities - Left

Small Business Taxes - seventh highest taxes in the nation - Left

Soft on crime policing under Schmoke, which can arguably be extrapolated to blame the murder rate and notorious Baltimore drug trade - Left

Inadequately prepped, prepared, and funded police under Schmoke - Left

Restrictive zoning laws regarding private investment and building - Left

Baltimore and Maryland come from the left on school, taxes, and welfare. It's hard to even debate it.

 
How about we go back to the totally unpopular but likely correct root cause - the breakdown of the black family structure, and see what we can do about fixing that. Once again the Moynihan Report was the subject of discussion today - this time on Meet The Press. Here is a video of the first part of it - http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/the-moynihan-report-50-years-later-438628419800

Since we keep talking about it, I thought I'd post some snippets from the Moynihan Report. As you read this, think about Baltimore, the riots, and the confused unnamed frustration we are seeing from the black community:

There is no one Negro community. There is no one Negro problem. There is no one solution. Nonetheless, at the center of the tangle of pathology is the weakness of the family structure. Once or twice removed, it will be found to be the principal source of most of the aberrant, inadequate, or antisocial behavior that did not establish, but now serves to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and deprivation.A fundamental fact of Negro American family life is the often reversed roles of husband and wife. In 44 percent of the Negro families studied, the wife was dominant, as against 20 percent of white wives. "Whereas the majority of white families are equalitarian, the largest percentage of Negro families are dominated by the wife." The matriarchal pattern of so many Negro families reinforces itself over the generations. This process begins with education. Although the gap appears to be closing at the moment, for a long while, Negro females were better educated than Negro males, and this remains true today for the Negro population as a whole.

Deton Brooks: "In a matriarchal structure, the women are transmitting the culture."

The white family, despite many variants, remains a powerful agency not only for transmitting property from one generation to the next, but also for transmitting no less valuable contracts with the world of education and work. In an earlier age, the Carpenters, Wainwrights, Weavers, Mercers, Farmers, Smiths acquired their names as well as their trades from their fathers and grandfathers. Children today still learn the patterns of work from their fathers even though they may no longer go into the same jobs.

Further, they found that children from homes where fathers are present have significantly higher scores than children in homes without fathers. The influence of the father's presence was then tested within the social classes and school grades for Negroes alone. They found that "a consistent trend within both grades at the lower SES [social class] level appears, and in no case is there a reversal of this trend: for males, females, and the combined group, the IQ's of children with fathers in the home are always higher than those who have no father in the home."

The scores of fifth graders with fathers absent were lower than the scores of first graders with fathers absent, and while the authors point out that it is cross sectional data and does not reveal the duration of the fathers' absence, "What we might be tapping is the cumulative effect of fatherless years."

The combined impact of poverty, failure, and isolation among Negro youth has had the predictable outcome in a disastrous delinquency and crime rate.

Some of the research on the effects of broken homes on delinquent behavior recently surveyed by Thomas F. Pettigrew in A Profile of the Negro American is summarized below, along with several other studies of the question.

Mary Diggs found that three-fourths — twice the expected ratio — of Philadelphia's Negro delinquents who came before the law during 1948 did not live with both their natural parents.

Recent psychological research demonstrates the personality effects of being reared in a disorganized home without a father. One study showed that children from fatherless homes seek immediate gratification of their desires far more than children with fathers present. Others revealed that children who hunger for immediate gratification are more prone to delinquency, along with other less social behavior. Two psychologists, Pettigrew says, maintain that inability to delay gratification is a critical factor in immature, criminal, and neurotic behavior.

"What contemporary slum and minority youth probably lack that similar children in earlier periods possessed is not motivation but some minimal sense of competence.

"We are plagued, in work with these youth, by what appears to be a low tolerance for frustration. They are not able to absorb setbacks. Minor irritants and rebuffs are magnified out of all proportion to reality.

Along with the diminution of white middle class contacts for a large percentage of Negroes, observers report that the Negro churches have all but lost contact with men in the Northern cities as well. This may be a normal condition of urban life, but it is probably a changed condition for the Negro American and cannot be a socially desirable development.

The only religious movement that appears to have enlisted a considerable number of lower class Negro males in Northern cities of late is that of the Black Muslims: a movement based on total rejection of white society, even though it emulates whites more.

The object of this study has been to define a problem, rather than propose solutions to it. However, the argument of this paper does lead to one central conclusion: Whatever the specific elements of a national effort designed to resolve this problem, those elements must be coordinated in terms of one general strategy. What then is that problem? We feel the answer is clear enough. Three centuries of injustice have brought about deep-seated structural distortions in the life of the Negro American. At this point, the present tangle of pathology is capable of perpetuating itself without assistance from the white world. The cycle can be broken only if these distortions are set right.

In a word, a national effort towards the problems of Negro Americans must be directed towards the question of family structure. The object should be to strengthen the Negro family so as to enable it to raise and support its members as do other families. After that, how this group of Americans chooses to run its affairs, take advantage of its opportunities, or fail to do so, is none of the nation's business.

The fundamental importance and urgency of restoring the Negro American Family structure has been evident for some time. E. Franklin Frazier put it most succinctly in 1950: "As the result of family disorganization a large proportion of Negro children and youth have not undergone the socialization which only the family can provide. The disorganized families have failed to provide for their emotional needs and have not provided the discipline and habits which are necessary for personality development. Because the disorganized family has failed in its function as a socializing agency, it has handicapped the children in their relations to the institutions in the community. Moreover, family disorganization has been partially responsible for a large amount of juvenile delinquency and adult crime among Negroes. Since the widespread family disorganization among Negroes has resulted from the failure of the father to play the role in family life required by American society, the mitigation of this problem must await those changes in the Negro and American society which will enable the Negro father to play the role required of him."

Such a national effort could be stated thus: The policy of the United States is to bring the Negro American to full and equal sharing in the responsibilities and rewards of citizenship. To this end, the programs of the Federal government bearing on this objective shall be designed to have the effect, directly or indirectly, of enhancing the stability and resources of the Negro American family.
Incredible, huh? People keep calling this report "prescient", which is a nice way of saying "Holy #### did Moynihan nail it." What's ironic is that the only thing he appears to have gotten wrong is when he concludes that the family breakdown problem will likely get better as we solve the poverty problem. Unfortunately as we have seen the War on Poverty didn’t solve the black problem.

As we see from the Meet The Press video, the issue of poverty has gotten MUCH better since 1965. The black childhood poverty rate has declined from 65.6% to 36.9%. Meanwhile the crime and unemployment rates for blacks have stayed the same or gotten worse. And as we know, the breakdown of the black family has gotten dramatically worse since 1965. Black children living in one parent homes has gone from 33% to 62%.

This obviously isn’t the only root cause, but oh my goodness is there overwhelming evidence that it appears to be the most important root cause. Yet we keep ignoring it. We can’t even talk about it really. It's too much of an emotional issue for blacks, and if white people talk about it they sound like racists. And we saw that today in the panel interview on Meet The Press. Nobody talked about black cultural issues. It's almost as if they are incapable of doing it, even on a segment where the stated purpose was to talk about it. Very sad.
Good read as well.

The past five decades have also seen a marked retreat from marriage (figure 3). In 1960, just over one-half of all black women were married and living with their husbands, compared with over twothirds of white and Hispanic women. By 2010, only one-quarter of black women, two-fifths of Hispanic women, and one-half of white women lived with their spouses. These demographic trends are stunning. Five decades after Moynihan’s work, white families exhibit the same rates of nonmarital childbearing and single parenting as black families did in the 1960s when Moynihan sounded his alarm. Meanwhile, the disintegration of the black nuclear family continued apace. That the decline of traditional families occurred across racial and ethnic groups indicates that factors driving the decline do not lie solely within the black community but in the larger social and economic context. Nevertheless, the consequences of these trends in family structure may be felt disproportionately among blacks as black children are far more likely to be born into and raised in father-absent families than are white children.
 
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The Path Forward

Almost five decades after Daniel Patrick Moynihan issued his report on black families, the United

States still struggles with many of the problems he identified. Although social progress has created

opportunities for many talented members of the black community, success has been made more

difficult by the high barriers many blacks face. Black poverty and unemployment rates are far higher

than those of whites, black children are far more likely to be born into and raised in single-parent

households than white children, and black teens and adults are far more likely to be imprisoned.

Untangling the myriad factors impeding the progress of black families and increasing social and

economic opportunities for blacks remains an important task for policymakers and community

leaders today.

Moynihan argued that reversing the decay of the traditional two-married-parent family was the

key to improving blacks’ prospects. In the intervening years, however, more children of all races and

ethnicities have been raised in one-parent families and cohabiting unmarried-parent families. Even

50 years ago, black poverty and social inequity was not simply a result of single parenting. Today’s

more complex social milieu requires a much broader strategy and set of initiatives to address the

multitude of factors impeding black economic and social progress.

Untangling the web of obstacles that ensnares black families and undermines social equity

requires efforts on three fronts: (1) reducing the structural barriers to black economic progress, (2)

enhancing the incentives for working in the mainstream economy, and (3) improving family

dynamics. Progress on these fronts can involve federal, state, local, and even individual policies and

practices.

Structural barriers to black progress include criminal justice policy, residential segregation and

concentrated poverty, the state of public schools in predominantly black communities, and lingering

and pernicious racial discrimination. As noted earlier, the War on Drugs has taken an enormous toll

on black men and families. While drug addiction and drug-related crime and violence are highly

destructive to individuals, families, and communities, the mass incarceration of black men for

nonviolent drug-related offenses has clearly contributed to the labor market struggles of black men

and the continuing decline of traditional nuclear families in the black community, with the attendant

negative consequences for children. Rather than continuing to pursue these criminal justice policies,

policymakers should consider alternative punishments for minor drug-related offenses and increase community resources for drug treatment.

Residential segregation and concentrated poverty disproportionately limit the economic opportunities of blacks. Historically, public policies played a central role in establishing and enforcing patterns of racial segregation in

American neighborhoods, alongside discriminatory practices by private-sector

institutions and individuals. But no single causal process explains the persistence of

residential segregation and concentrated poverty in America today. Discrimination, information

gaps, stereotypes and fears, and disparities in purchasing power all work together to perpetuate

segregation, even though many Americans—minority and white—say they want to live in more

diverse neighborhoods.

Because the causes of segregation are interconnected, no single intervention can succeed on its

own. Instead, the evidence argues for a multipronged strategy that includes (1) fair housing

enforcement—to combat persistent housing market discrimination; (2) education for homeseekers

of all races and ethnicities—about the availability and desirability of diverse neighborhoods; (3)

affordable housing development—to open up exclusive communities to residents with a wider range

of income levels; and 4) community reinvestment—to equalize the quality of services, amenities, and

infrastructure in minority neighborhoods.

Although blacks have closed the gap in high school graduation with whites, they still lag behind

whites in college completion. Policymakers perpetually decry failing schools and promote a wide

variety of potential reforms, from more accountability to smaller class sizes to charter schools and

vouchers. While there is no consensus on the best way to reform education, intensive programs that

engage parents before their children are even ready to start school and support those children

through high school, such as the Harlem Children’s Zone, illustrate the type of effort that may

increase the educational and future economic opportunities for black children.

If we are serious about healing families, building families, repairing our communities, we have got to be willing to commit ourselves to the abolition of this system of mass incarceration as a whole. And that means ending the drug war once and for all. There is no path—no path to healing our communities, rebuilding families

and ghettoized communities—that includes this War on Drugs.

Although the level of overt discrimination in the United States has diminished markedly since

the 1960s, race remains a factor in determining economic opportunities and outcomes. Whether

discrimination is overt, subconscious, or based on statistical profiling, it impedes black economic

progress. Continued, aggressive enforcement of antidiscrimination statutes as well as affirmative

action policies are required to ensure equal opportunity.

Raising the rewards of working, particular for younger, less-skilled individuals not living with

children, could have particularly strong socioeconomic benefits for blacks. A minimum-wage job

today does not pay enough to keep a family out of poverty. And while low-earning custodial parents

can use the earned income tax credit (EITC) to greatly supplement their families’ incomes, the EITC

for single adults is rather meager. As such, unmarried men who have no children or are living apart

from their children and can only secure low-wage work may find working in the mainstream

economy not worth the effort. Increasing the EITC for single adults could encourage more work

among single men. Those men may then become established in the mainstream economy and be

better positioned to support their future families financially.

Family structure and family dynamics influence children’s development and future prospects.

Children born into single-mother families are far more likely to be poor and persistently poor than

children born into two-parent families. Providing information and access to contraception to lowincome

couples so they can avoid unintended pregnancies could reduce nonmarital childbearing. In

addition, improving access to relationship resources through school, church, and Internet-based

platforms could help young parents form more stable cohabiting and marital relationships. Such

changes could improve the social and economic well-being of children and lead to better adult

outcomes for those children.

Child support enforcement can channel much-needed resources to low-income women and

children but may have adverse effects on noncustodial fathers. Men who are unable to pay their full

child support amount or their arrears may opt out of the mainstream labor market to avoid

automatic garnishment of their wages. As a result, less money flows to the child, and the father loses

mainstream job experience that could help him support a family in the future. More flexible awards

that adjust as the father’s economic circumstances change as well as policies that allow time spent

with children to constitute part of the award may keep noncustodial fathers more engaged in their

children’s lives both emotionally and financially.

Finally, the decline of the traditional two-parent household among all racial groups has given rise

to very complex families. Even in a family in which a mother and father live together, the mother

may have a child from a previous relationship that lives with her and the father may have a child

from a previous relationship that lives elsewhere. The adults and children in such households are

interacting with adults and children living elsewhere who all have claims on their affection, time, and

resources. Community service and other organizations need to be equipped to help complex families

navigate the emotional, logistical, and financial challenges that come along with their complexity.

Debates about the status and progress of black families in the United States started before the

Moynihan report and have clearly raged since. The report focused on how black family structure

contributed to a host of factors that all impeded progress toward social equity. In the decades since

its release, many of the social trends that concerned Moynihan have worsened for blacks and

nonblacks alike. Today it is clear that no one factor by itself holds the key to economic and social

progress. Policymakers, community leaders, and individuals themselves must act to enhance

economic opportunities and social equity for black men and families. Otherwise, we may spend the

next 50 years lamenting our continued lack of progress.
The Moynihan Report Revisited

 
The problem isn't lack of money for education, it's that uneducated people who don't value education are self-segregating to raise their kids amongst other uneducated people who don't value education.
In the early 1970s, liberals sought to correct that problem by busing. The idea was that if you took black kids from poor and inner city neighborhoods, and then spread them around to white suburb schools, the better education combined with being around kids and parents who valued education would "rub off" on them. We don't know what the ultimate results of that experiment would have been, because, frankly, certain whites fought it so much that it was basically dropped by the time Reagan got into office.Should we pick up the idea again?
They still have it in San Francisco. Now all the public schools suck (with the exception of a few great charter schools).

 
The problem isn't lack of money for education, it's that uneducated people who don't value education are self-segregating to raise their kids amongst other uneducated people who don't value education.
In the early 1970s, liberals sought to correct that problem by busing. The idea was that if you took black kids from poor and inner city neighborhoods, and then spread them around to white suburb schools, the better education combined with being around kids and parents who valued education would "rub off" on them. We don't know what the ultimate results of that experiment would have been, because, frankly, certain whites fought it so much that it was basically dropped by the time Reagan got into office.Should we pick up the idea again?
They still have it in San Francisco. Now all the public schools suck (with the exception of a few great charter schools).
Due to busing?

 
Move black families to white neighborhoods.

Between 1976 and 1998, more than 7,000 families received vouchers through Gautreaux, about half of whom moved to 115 suburbs around Chicago, with the assistance of placement counselors. Suburbs that were more than 30 percent black were excluded from the program. Families that had more than four children or bad credit did not qualify, nor did those who had been found to have damaged their rental housing.

A study of suburban Gautreaux mothers in the 1990s found that they were more likely to be employed than mothers who had received vouchers to move within the city. Gautreaux children in the suburbs were more likely to graduate from high school, attend four-year colleges, and to have jobs than their peers who had moved to other city neighborhoods. They also had higher pay and benefits than the other children. Even mothers who had not had jobs before were more likely to get jobs if they moved to the suburbs, Rosenbaum told me in an interview.

Later research showed that two-thirds of the families remained in the suburbs 15 years after their move. Long after the program ended, mothers who moved through Gautreaux continued to live in low-poverty areas and have higher household incomes.
 
The problem isn't lack of money for education, it's that uneducated people who don't value education are self-segregating to raise their kids amongst other uneducated people who don't value education.
In the early 1970s, liberals sought to correct that problem by busing. The idea was that if you took black kids from poor and inner city neighborhoods, and then spread them around to white suburb schools, the better education combined with being around kids and parents who valued education would "rub off" on them. We don't know what the ultimate results of that experiment would have been, because, frankly, certain whites fought it so much that it was basically dropped by the time Reagan got into office.Should we pick up the idea again?
They still have it in San Francisco. Now all the public schools suck (with the exception of a few great charter schools).
Due to busing?
That's when the decline started. They still do busing. Now it's busing kids from bad schools to not very good schools.

 
  • NIMBY for section 8 voucher - Right
This would be solved with a BIG.

A problem I have with other liberals is the need to micromanage people's lives. If you're going to spend the money then give it directly to them and let them manage their own money.

Not only would BIG be more efficient (less government overhead and waste) it would empower people instead of making them jump through hoops to get money.
If the BIG was enacted what would happen when the inevitable stories about some of the people spending the money on vices come out? Would the voters just accept it as part of human nature or would they demand restrictions on how their tax money gets spent by (some of) the "takers"?

I actually agree that BIG would be better and much more efficient but IMO it's politically impossible.
If they don't have kids and spend it on vices then that's their prerogative.

If they have kids and spend it on vices then they get their kids taken away until they can be responsible enough to take care of them.

I believe a vast majority of BIG recipients would make better decisions than they are currently making. The main reason is that the incentives would be changed from being unemployed and manipulating the system to getting a job and earning money on top of the BIG.

 
Excellent article. Thoughts, General

Tso?
I agree it's a great article. Pinky posts a lot of great stuff in here. My thoughts:

the War on Drugs has taken an enormous toll on black men and families.
I agree with this. Blacks and white use drugs about equally but blacks get caught for it a lot more. My hypothesis is that this is more of a geographical issue. Cops police more in high crime areas and this tends to be in the inner cities which are still heavily populated by minorities.

Discrimination, information gaps, stereotypes and fears, and disparities in purchasing power all work together to perpetuatesegregation, even though many Americans—minority and white—say they want to live in more diverse neighborhoods.
I reject this notion and will continue to do so until I see some sort of definitive evidence that points to such evil motives. We have dealt with this issue effectively with passage of the Fair Housing Act passed in 1968. Many black families have left the ghettos and moved to the suburbs, and those that have are usually FAMILIES. Home ownership is very difficult, almost impossible with a single parent. This is yet another argument supporting Moynihan's findings.

Policymakers perpetually decry failing schools and promote a wide variety of potential reforms, from more accountability to smaller class sizes to charter schools and vouchers.
There are things we can do to improve schools. And we’ve been trying all of them for 50 years. If a student is to succeed they need structure and discipline in the home. Again - Moynihan.

Whether discrimination is overt, subconscious, or based on statistical profiling, it impedes black economic progress.
Based on my own experience the predominant form of discrimination that exists where I work (white collar financial services) is reverse discrimination. I’ve lived it and seen it in action, as both a Manager and as the brother of an Executive who worked at the company in Human Resources form 30 years. We literally fight over talented black workers, and we go out of state to recruit them. There’s not enough of them quite frankly. That being said, I think there probably is a level of discrimination against blacks that still exists in the blue collar space. I don’t know enough about that area to be honest.

As such, unmarried men who have no children or are living apart from their children and can only secure low-wage work may find working in the mainstream economy not worth the effort.
I’ve said earlier we need taxation policies that favor families and provide every incentive to stay in the home. And we also need to reform the child support system that is horribly punitive and unforgiving to men. See Walter Scott.

Providing information and access to contraception to low income couples so they can avoid unintended pregnancies could reduce nonmarital childbearing. In addition, improving access to relationship resources through school, church, and Internet-based platforms could help young parents form more stable cohabiting and marital relationships. Such changes could improve the social and economic well-being of children and lead to better adult outcomes for those children.
Amen to this. Throw all sorts of money and resources at this. More importantly – teach people and convince people of why this is necessary. Show them the studies and overwhelming evidence that single-parent families are so much more doomed to failure. Make them believe it, and maybe it will change the culture. Stop glorifying teenage pregnancy and making tv shows out of these girls.

More flexible awards that adjust as the father’s economic circumstances change as well as policies that allow time spent with children to constitute part of the award may keep noncustodial fathers more engaged in their children’s lives both emotionally and financially.
Amen again. Enact the Legislation tomorrow, in Walter Scott’s name.

Community service and other organizations need to be equipped to help complex families navigate the emotional, logistical, and financial challenges that come along with their complexity.
Agree 100%. I’m a single Dad to a 14 year old kid. I have been grappling with this “broken family” issue since he was 2 years old. I know all about this stuff, which is why I’m so passionate about the issue. My son has done so much better when me and the ex have lived in the same town, and he is thriving now that I've bought a house. Had 5 of his buddies over last night to watch the fight, and today I had the little guy out doing yard work with me. There's no substitute for having a family and a male role model actively involved in a boy's life. And there's no substitute for owning a home and caring for it.

One of the cool things I saw this week in the Baltimore coverage - on Fox no less - was this program where they are turning abandoned homes into development property. They sell the homes for dirt cheap - practically give them away - and let the people who buy them fix them up and live in them. We need more ideas like that.

 
How about we go back to the totally unpopular but likely correct root cause - the breakdown of the black family structure, and see what we can do about fixing that. Once again the Moynihan Report was the subject of discussion today - this time on Meet The Press. Here is a video of the first part of it - http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/the-moynihan-report-50-years-later-438628419800

Since we keep talking about it, I thought I'd post some snippets from the Moynihan Report. As you read this, think about Baltimore, the riots, and the confused unnamed frustration we are seeing from the black community:

There is no one Negro community. There is no one Negro problem. There is no one solution. Nonetheless, at the center of the tangle of pathology is the weakness of the family structure. Once or twice removed, it will be found to be the principal source of most of the aberrant, inadequate, or antisocial behavior that did not establish, but now serves to perpetuate the cycle of poverty and deprivation.A fundamental fact of Negro American family life is the often reversed roles of husband and wife. In 44 percent of the Negro families studied, the wife was dominant, as against 20 percent of white wives. "Whereas the majority of white families are equalitarian, the largest percentage of Negro families are dominated by the wife." The matriarchal pattern of so many Negro families reinforces itself over the generations. This process begins with education. Although the gap appears to be closing at the moment, for a long while, Negro females were better educated than Negro males, and this remains true today for the Negro population as a whole.

Deton Brooks: "In a matriarchal structure, the women are transmitting the culture."

The white family, despite many variants, remains a powerful agency not only for transmitting property from one generation to the next, but also for transmitting no less valuable contracts with the world of education and work. In an earlier age, the Carpenters, Wainwrights, Weavers, Mercers, Farmers, Smiths acquired their names as well as their trades from their fathers and grandfathers. Children today still learn the patterns of work from their fathers even though they may no longer go into the same jobs.

Further, they found that children from homes where fathers are present have significantly higher scores than children in homes without fathers. The influence of the father's presence was then tested within the social classes and school grades for Negroes alone. They found that "a consistent trend within both grades at the lower SES [social class] level appears, and in no case is there a reversal of this trend: for males, females, and the combined group, the IQ's of children with fathers in the home are always higher than those who have no father in the home."

The scores of fifth graders with fathers absent were lower than the scores of first graders with fathers absent, and while the authors point out that it is cross sectional data and does not reveal the duration of the fathers' absence, "What we might be tapping is the cumulative effect of fatherless years."

The combined impact of poverty, failure, and isolation among Negro youth has had the predictable outcome in a disastrous delinquency and crime rate.

Some of the research on the effects of broken homes on delinquent behavior recently surveyed by Thomas F. Pettigrew in A Profile of the Negro American is summarized below, along with several other studies of the question.

Mary Diggs found that three-fourths — twice the expected ratio — of Philadelphia's Negro delinquents who came before the law during 1948 did not live with both their natural parents.

Recent psychological research demonstrates the personality effects of being reared in a disorganized home without a father. One study showed that children from fatherless homes seek immediate gratification of their desires far more than children with fathers present. Others revealed that children who hunger for immediate gratification are more prone to delinquency, along with other less social behavior. Two psychologists, Pettigrew says, maintain that inability to delay gratification is a critical factor in immature, criminal, and neurotic behavior.

"What contemporary slum and minority youth probably lack that similar children in earlier periods possessed is not motivation but some minimal sense of competence.

"We are plagued, in work with these youth, by what appears to be a low tolerance for frustration. They are not able to absorb setbacks. Minor irritants and rebuffs are magnified out of all proportion to reality.

Along with the diminution of white middle class contacts for a large percentage of Negroes, observers report that the Negro churches have all but lost contact with men in the Northern cities as well. This may be a normal condition of urban life, but it is probably a changed condition for the Negro American and cannot be a socially desirable development.

The only religious movement that appears to have enlisted a considerable number of lower class Negro males in Northern cities of late is that of the Black Muslims: a movement based on total rejection of white society, even though it emulates whites more.

The object of this study has been to define a problem, rather than propose solutions to it. However, the argument of this paper does lead to one central conclusion: Whatever the specific elements of a national effort designed to resolve this problem, those elements must be coordinated in terms of one general strategy. What then is that problem? We feel the answer is clear enough. Three centuries of injustice have brought about deep-seated structural distortions in the life of the Negro American. At this point, the present tangle of pathology is capable of perpetuating itself without assistance from the white world. The cycle can be broken only if these distortions are set right.

In a word, a national effort towards the problems of Negro Americans must be directed towards the question of family structure. The object should be to strengthen the Negro family so as to enable it to raise and support its members as do other families. After that, how this group of Americans chooses to run its affairs, take advantage of its opportunities, or fail to do so, is none of the nation's business.

The fundamental importance and urgency of restoring the Negro American Family structure has been evident for some time. E. Franklin Frazier put it most succinctly in 1950: "As the result of family disorganization a large proportion of Negro children and youth have not undergone the socialization which only the family can provide. The disorganized families have failed to provide for their emotional needs and have not provided the discipline and habits which are necessary for personality development. Because the disorganized family has failed in its function as a socializing agency, it has handicapped the children in their relations to the institutions in the community. Moreover, family disorganization has been partially responsible for a large amount of juvenile delinquency and adult crime among Negroes. Since the widespread family disorganization among Negroes has resulted from the failure of the father to play the role in family life required by American society, the mitigation of this problem must await those changes in the Negro and American society which will enable the Negro father to play the role required of him."

Such a national effort could be stated thus: The policy of the United States is to bring the Negro American to full and equal sharing in the responsibilities and rewards of citizenship. To this end, the programs of the Federal government bearing on this objective shall be designed to have the effect, directly or indirectly, of enhancing the stability and resources of the Negro American family.
Incredible, huh? People keep calling this report "prescient", which is a nice way of saying "Holy #### did Moynihan nail it." What's ironic is that the only thing he appears to have gotten wrong is when he concludes that the family breakdown problem will likely get better as we solve the poverty problem. Unfortunately as we have seen the War on Poverty didn’t solve the black problem.

As we see from the Meet The Press video, the issue of poverty has gotten MUCH better since 1965. The black childhood poverty rate has declined from 65.6% to 36.9%. Meanwhile the crime and unemployment rates for blacks have stayed the same or gotten worse. And as we know, the breakdown of the black family has gotten dramatically worse since 1965. Black children living in one parent homes has gone from 33% to 62%.

This obviously isn’t the only root cause, but oh my goodness is there overwhelming evidence that it appears to be the most important root cause. Yet we keep ignoring it. We can’t even talk about it really. It's too much of an emotional issue for blacks, and if white people talk about it they sound like racists. And we saw that today in the panel interview on Meet The Press. Nobody talked about black cultural issues. It's almost as if they are incapable of doing it, even on a segment where the stated purpose was to talk about it. Very sad.
Yes, your right. Can't even talk about it. Nice thoughtful post by the way.

Thank you.

 
Excellent article. Thoughts, General

Tso?
I agree it's a great article. Pinky posts a lot of great stuff in here. My thoughts:

Discrimination, information gaps, stereotypes and fears, and disparities in purchasing power all work together to perpetuatesegregation, even though many Americans—minority and white—say they want to live in more diverse neighborhoods.
I reject this notion and will continue to do so until I see some sort of definitive evidence that points to such evil motives. We have dealt with this issue effectively with passage of the Fair Housing Act passed in 1968. Many black families have left the ghettos and moved to the suburbs, and those that have are usually FAMILIES. Home ownership is very difficult, almost impossible with a single parent. This is yet another argument supporting Moynihan's findings.
http://www.urban.org/urban-wire/glass-half-full-discrimination-against-minority-homeseekers

Watch the video as well. I don't think its necessarily done to be intentionally evil. More subconscious than anything.

 
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Half of the officers are black?? Was this known prior to the rioting? Excuse me if this was discussed, I haven't been online since Friday afternoon.

 
Not sure if this was discussed yet but Alan Dershowitz calls this a show trial and wasn't very pleased with the AG

“This is a very sad day for justice in the United States, in Baltimore and in Maryland. Today had nothing to do with justice; today was crowd-control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots. The Mayor–outrageously–said we’re gonna get justice for the victims and the families and the people of Baltimore; never mentioning the defendants…”

“The Mayor and the state attorney have made it virtually impossible for these defendants to get a fair trial. They have been presumed guilty…some in the crowd said the only reason we got these indictments is because we rioted. They may very well be right…There is an incompatibility between crowd-control and justice…you cannot allow police officers or any other defendants to become scapegoats for crowds who are demanding a continuation of rioting… Even the ACLU issued a statement today praising the indictment, and not mentioning the presumption of innocence, or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or due process…”

“There is no plausible, hypothetical, conceivable case for murder under the facts as we now know them. You might say conceivably, there is a case for manslaughter. My prediction—they have overplayed their hand. It is unlikely they’ll get any convictions in this case as a result of this and if they do there is a good possibility they will get reversed on appeal.”


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2061630/alan-dershowitz-harvard-law-professor-slams-marilyn-mosby-for-charges-brought-against-officers/#wPYxgx8llIzj0wTa.99
 
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Not sure if this was discussed yet but Alan Dershowitz calls this a show trial and wasn't very pleased with the AG

... “This is a very sad day for justice in the United States, in Baltimore and in Maryland. Today had nothing to do with justice; today was crowd-control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots. The Mayor–outrageously–said we’re gonna get justice for the victims and the families and the people of Baltimore; never mentioning the defendants…”
“The Mayor and the state attorney have made it virtually impossible for these defendants to get a fair trial. They have been presumed guilty…some in the crowd said the only reason we got these indictments is because we rioted. They may very well be right…There is an incompatibility between crowd-control and justice…you cannot allow police officers or any other defendants to become scapegoats for crowds who are demanding a continuation of rioting… Even the ACLU issued a statement today praising the indictment, and not mentioning the presumption of innocence, or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or due process…”

“There is no plausible, hypothetical, conceivable case for murder under the facts as we now know them. You might say conceivably, there is a case for manslaughter. My prediction—they have overplayed their hand. It is unlikely they’ll get any convictions in this case as a result of this and if they do there is a good possibility they will get reversed on appeal.”
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2061630/alan-dershowitz-harvard-law-professor-slams-marilyn-mosby-for-charges-brought-against-officers/#wPYxgx8llIzj0wTa.99
Her speech is reminiscent of Jim Garrison. Totally different situations I know, but that turned into a disaster. Garrison first ran into trouble at a preliminary hearing.

 
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Not sure if this was discussed yet but Alan Dershowitz calls this a show trial and wasn't very pleased with the AG

... “This is a very sad day for justice in the United States, in Baltimore and in Maryland. Today had nothing to do with justice; today was crowd-control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots. The Mayor–outrageously–said we’re gonna get justice for the victims and the families and the people of Baltimore; never mentioning the defendants…”
“The Mayor and the state attorney have made it virtually impossible for these defendants to get a fair trial. They have been presumed guilty…some in the crowd said the only reason we got these indictments is because we rioted. They may very well be right…There is an incompatibility between crowd-control and justice…you cannot allow police officers or any other defendants to become scapegoats for crowds who are demanding a continuation of rioting… Even the ACLU issued a statement today praising the indictment, and not mentioning the presumption of innocence, or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or due process…”

“There is no plausible, hypothetical, conceivable case for murder under the facts as we now know them. You might say conceivably, there is a case for manslaughter. My prediction—they have overplayed their hand. It is unlikely they’ll get any convictions in this case as a result of this and if they do there is a good possibility they will get reversed on appeal.”
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2061630/alan-dershowitz-harvard-law-professor-slams-marilyn-mosby-for-charges-brought-against-officers/#wPYxgx8llIzj0wTa.99
Her speech is reminiscent of Jim Garrison. Totally different situations I know, but that turned into a disaster. Garrison first ran into trouble at a preliminary hearing.
Sure does seem like this is setting up for something really big(or bad).I tend to agree with Dershowitz on this,I just don't see this as anything more than just trying to control the riots given the facts we have now.

If more facts emerge this will certainly change but based on what I've heard so far I don't see any way 2nd degree murder sticks in any way.

 
Half of the officers are black?? Was this known prior to the rioting? Excuse me if this was discussed, I haven't been online since Friday afternoon.
I don't think so. This point has been made further up but racial animus is out the window as a motive now.
i don't see why.
Explain to me a line of argument how that would work, three black cops conspire to murder a black man because of his race. Just give me a preview of how that argument would go.

 
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Half of the officers are black?? Was this known prior to the rioting? Excuse me if this was discussed, I haven't been online since Friday afternoon.
I don't think so. This point has been made further up but racial animus is out the window as a motive now.
i don't see why.
Explain to me a line of argument how that would work, three black cops conspire to murder a black man because of his race. Just give me a preview of how that argument would go.
this was discussed in depth in the last 2 or 3 pages.

 
Half of the officers are black?? Was this known prior to the rioting? Excuse me if this was discussed, I haven't been online since Friday afternoon.
I don't think so. This point has been made further up but racial animus is out the window as a motive now.
i don't see why.
Explain to me a line of argument how that would work, three black cops conspire to murder a black man because of his race. Just give me a preview of how that argument would go.
this was discussed in depth in the last 2 or 3 pages.
(Sorry I will check it out, thanks).

 
Not sure if this was discussed yet but Alan Dershowitz calls this a show trial and wasn't very pleased with the AG

“This is a very sad day for justice in the United States, in Baltimore and in Maryland. Today had nothing to do with justice; today was crowd-control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots. The Mayor–outrageously–said we’re gonna get justice for the victims and the families and the people of Baltimore; never mentioning the defendants…”

“The Mayor and the state attorney have made it virtually impossible for these defendants to get a fair trial. They have been presumed guilty…some in the crowd said the only reason we got these indictments is because we rioted. They may very well be right…There is an incompatibility between crowd-control and justice…you cannot allow police officers or any other defendants to become scapegoats for crowds who are demanding a continuation of rioting… Even the ACLU issued a statement today praising the indictment, and not mentioning the presumption of innocence, or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or due process…”

“There is no plausible, hypothetical, conceivable case for murder under the facts as we now know them. You might say conceivably, there is a case for manslaughter. My prediction—they have overplayed their hand. It is unlikely they’ll get any convictions in this case as a result of this and if they do there is a good possibility they will get reversed on appeal.”

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2061630/alan-dershowitz-harvard-law-professor-slams-marilyn-mosby-for-charges-brought-against-officers/#wPYxgx8llIzj0wTa.99
Link to all the riots that happened Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, between the time things settled down following the initial outburst Monday night and the announcement of the indictments on Friday morning?

 
Interesting little poll that came out recently

Maryland, it's not the land of pleasant living any more.

At least not according to nearly half the state's population.

About 47 percent of Marylanders would like to move out of state, according to a recent Gallup poll.

The Free State came just behind Illinois and Connecticut as a state that had the largest population of residents looking to flee.

So why do people want to leave Maryland?

It just might be the taxes, Gallup says. Another recent Gallup poll shows that 67 percent of Marylanders think state taxes are too high.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2014-05-05/features/bal-47-percent-of-marylanders-would-like-to-leave-the-state-20140505_1_marylanders-47-percent-state-taxes
 
You came in about 20 pages in without much knowledge of the case and started ####ting all over it. Where I work we call that seagulling - flying into a place, ####ting all over it, then flying out.
Very apt description of what you've done regarding Baltimore during the course of the last week.

 
Half of the officers are black?? Was this known prior to the rioting? Excuse me if this was discussed, I haven't been online since Friday afternoon.
I don't think so. This point has been made further up but racial animus is out the window as a motive now.
i don't see why.
Explain to me a line of argument how that would work, three black cops conspire to murder a black man because of his race. Just give me a preview of how that argument would go.
this was discussed in depth in the last 2 or 3 pages.
Pinky is it the argument on systemic or institutionalized racism?

Because the prosecutor weill have to show that as actual, personal motive in the policemen. Persons are on trial, not a department. But if that's the tack, it won't be any easier convincing a jury that these three black cops personally took that racism upon themselves and then acted upon it. That will be a convoluted and difficult argument and the judge may not even permit it.

 
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I don't think at any time the prosecutors will directly charge racism. It will be implied. But the facts of the case speak for themselves.

 
Half of the officers are black?? Was this known prior to the rioting? Excuse me if this was discussed, I haven't been online since Friday afternoon.
I don't think so. This point has been made further up but racial animus is out the window as a motive now.
i don't see why.
Explain to me a line of argument how that would work, three black cops conspire to murder a black man because of his race. Just give me a preview of how that argument would go.
this was discussed in depth in the last 2 or 3 pages.
Pinky is it the argument on systemic or institutionalized racism?

Because the prosecutor weill have to show that as actual, personal motive in the policemen. Persons are on trial, not a department. But if that's the tack, it won't be any easier convincing a jury that these three black cops personally took that racism upon themselves and then acted upon it. That will be a convoluted and difficult argument and the judge may not even permit it.
I think your missing the point. If the racism is systemic, then its not about specific people. Also, i dont believe the prosecutor is trying to prove the cops were racist. I think the people saying race is involved are focused more on the systemic issues at play here.

 
So here's the quick summary of my aborted attempt at some civil disobedience in breaking the curfew Saturday night.

For starters, I was extremely angry about the curfew. By the time Saturday rolled around, it had been 4 straight evenings with no disturbances, save the nightly skirmish at 10 p.m. when law-abiding citizens were ordered into their homes by a decree of dubious constitutionality. Following Friday, I truly believed that the curfew actually presented the largest potential for any further violence, because people were increasingly angry about being forced into house arrest every night.

So when word started on Twitter that a bunch of people were going to flout the curfew in a white neighborhood, I decided to get involved. My wife was petrified. She had visions of me disappearing into Central Booking for 48 hours without a trace - as has happened to many, many people arrested during the last week. Sure, you get out at the end of 48 hours but that's no place you want to be. I got there and - as so often happens on social media - was disappointed to see that the reality didn't match the online hype.

I guess the crowd grew to about 50 people, but as I mentioned that night, it was a bunch of real PC dooshes. The butch lesbians, the hippies, and the whole BS about it being a silent protest so that we white people wouldn't steal the spotlight from our righteously aggrieved African American brothers. But, oh well.

At about 9:50, one officer showed up and talked to us very cordially. At that point, I kind of thought that was going to be it. And then suddenly, the police "staged" at the 7-11. They rolled up in a couple of white school buses and at least 40 guys in riot gear came out and got into formation, blocking the street in front of us. It was so bizarre - the police had obviously been following the same social media as I had been, and resolved to take out this protest.

Again, as I said that night, seeing the windowless Baltimore PD vans like Freddie Gray went into made stuff get very real. All but 5 of us started to drift down the street away from the cops and by the time the second warning came at about 10 after, we all casually but quickly strolled away - save those who decided they were in for the arrest portion of the evening. But most of us - once the cops made it clear that they would indeed treat us like they were treating curfew breakers at Penn and North, had enough.

The weird thing is how staged it all was. A block away, people were just hanging out on their front stoops, kind of having a party. By the time I get back to my car and drove past Hopkins, there were kids walking around with backpacks, whatever. But because the police had seen on social media that an organized protest was planned, and because the media came, that's what got the heavy police response.

Anyway, it was an interesting experience - glad I tried to do something, a little sheepish about how little I actually did, real glad not to have gotten arrested, but most of all happy that the curfew was finally lifted.

 
Not sure if this was discussed yet but Alan Dershowitz calls this a show trial and wasn't very pleased with the AG

“This is a very sad day for justice in the United States, in Baltimore and in Maryland. Today had nothing to do with justice; today was crowd-control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots. The Mayor–outrageously–said we’re gonna get justice for the victims and the families and the people of Baltimore; never mentioning the defendants…”

“The Mayor and the state attorney have made it virtually impossible for these defendants to get a fair trial. They have been presumed guilty…some in the crowd said the only reason we got these indictments is because we rioted. They may very well be right…There is an incompatibility between crowd-control and justice…you cannot allow police officers or any other defendants to become scapegoats for crowds who are demanding a continuation of rioting… Even the ACLU issued a statement today praising the indictment, and not mentioning the presumption of innocence, or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or due process…”

“There is no plausible, hypothetical, conceivable case for murder under the facts as we now know them. You might say conceivably, there is a case for manslaughter. My prediction—they have overplayed their hand. It is unlikely they’ll get any convictions in this case as a result of this and if they do there is a good possibility they will get reversed on appeal.”

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2061630/alan-dershowitz-harvard-law-professor-slams-marilyn-mosby-for-charges-brought-against-officers/#wPYxgx8llIzj0wTa.99
Link to all the riots that happened Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, between the time things settled down following the initial outburst Monday night and the announcement of the indictments on Friday morning?
So you feel that if the AG didn't file these charges on Friday you would have had no looting or rioting?

Let's say she just sent it to a grand jury,what reaction would have came next?

ETA:Also wanted to give you some props for going out and soaking in what was going on around you.

 
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Not sure if this was discussed yet but Alan Dershowitz calls this a show trial and wasn't very pleased with the AG

“This is a very sad day for justice in the United States, in Baltimore and in Maryland. Today had nothing to do with justice; today was crowd-control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots. The Mayor–outrageously–said we’re gonna get justice for the victims and the families and the people of Baltimore; never mentioning the defendants…”

“The Mayor and the state attorney have made it virtually impossible for these defendants to get a fair trial. They have been presumed guilty…some in the crowd said the only reason we got these indictments is because we rioted. They may very well be right…There is an incompatibility between crowd-control and justice…you cannot allow police officers or any other defendants to become scapegoats for crowds who are demanding a continuation of rioting… Even the ACLU issued a statement today praising the indictment, and not mentioning the presumption of innocence, or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or due process…”

“There is no plausible, hypothetical, conceivable case for murder under the facts as we now know them. You might say conceivably, there is a case for manslaughter. My prediction—they have overplayed their hand. It is unlikely they’ll get any convictions in this case as a result of this and if they do there is a good possibility they will get reversed on appeal.”

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2061630/alan-dershowitz-harvard-law-professor-slams-marilyn-mosby-for-charges-brought-against-officers/#wPYxgx8llIzj0wTa.99
Link to all the riots that happened Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, between the time things settled down following the initial outburst Monday night and the announcement of the indictments on Friday morning?
So you feel that if the AG didn't file these charges on Friday you would have had no looting or rioting?

Let's say she just sent it to a grand jury,what reaction would have came next?

ETA:Also wanted to give you some props for going out and soaking in what was going on around you.
Most people - including the police conducting the investigation - were shocked that charges came down on Friday.

I agree that the next potential flashpoint was going to be whenever charges were announced, but nobody knew when that was going to be. Why was the curfew still in place Saturday, let alone Friday?

If the riots were so closely linked to the announcement of charges, then why were there no disturbances Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday?

 
Interesting little poll that came out recently

Maryland, it's not the land of pleasant living any more.

At least not according to nearly half the state's population.

About 47 percent of Marylanders would like to move out of state, according to a recent Gallup poll.

The Free State came just behind Illinois and Connecticut as a state that had the largest population of residents looking to flee.

So why do people want to leave Maryland?

It just might be the taxes, Gallup says. Another recent Gallup poll shows that 67 percent of Marylanders think state taxes are too high.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2014-05-05/features/bal-47-percent-of-marylanders-would-like-to-leave-the-state-20140505_1_marylanders-47-percent-state-taxes
For those familiar with the term, it kinda sounds like a "death spiral" in the insurance industry. Taxes are too high, so the rich/richer want to move away, leaving a poorer population in need of those taxes behind.

 
Half of the officers are black?? Was this known prior to the rioting? Excuse me if this was discussed, I haven't been online since Friday afternoon.
I don't think so. This point has been made further up but racial animus is out the window as a motive now.
i don't see why.
Explain to me a line of argument how that would work, three black cops conspire to murder a black man because of his race. Just give me a preview of how that argument would go.
this was discussed in depth in the last 2 or 3 pages.
Pinky is it the argument on systemic or institutionalized racism?

Because the prosecutor weill have to show that as actual, personal motive in the policemen. Persons are on trial, not a department. But if that's the tack, it won't be any easier convincing a jury that these three black cops personally took that racism upon themselves and then acted upon it. That will be a convoluted and difficult argument and the judge may not even permit it.
I think your missing the point. If the racism is systemic, then its not about specific people. Also, i dont believe the prosecutor is trying to prove the cops were racist. I think the people saying race is involved are focused more on the systemic issues at play here.
Ok sure, you're talking about the issue in general (and we might have some agreement). - I was just talking about the case itself in court. If it's negligent homicide I agree with BFS, but if they're looking at anything north of that I think they will have to find a motive. (Glad to defer to MD area folks in the know).

 
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I don't know how far off-base this is, but I can't help but feel this trial is going to be along the lines of the trial in "A Few Good Men", as in both cases, a death resulted because of an unwritten SOP regarding how to handle 'troublesome' people. Just as the Marines in the movie were found guilty of "conduct unbecoming", I think these officers will be found guilty of the lesser charge of misconduct in office (IIRC). That's probably as far as the comparison goes, however, since I don't see the officers' defense attorney(s) throwing the Chief of Police under the bus.

I'm also interested in seeing if the officers seek separate counsel and/or trials, or if they'll stand united. That would add another layer, especially if they were to separate by race.

 
Not sure if this was discussed yet but Alan Dershowitz calls this a show trial and wasn't very pleased with the AG

“This is a very sad day for justice in the United States, in Baltimore and in Maryland. Today had nothing to do with justice; today was crowd-control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots. The Mayor–outrageously–said we’re gonna get justice for the victims and the families and the people of Baltimore; never mentioning the defendants…”

“The Mayor and the state attorney have made it virtually impossible for these defendants to get a fair trial. They have been presumed guilty…some in the crowd said the only reason we got these indictments is because we rioted. They may very well be right…There is an incompatibility between crowd-control and justice…you cannot allow police officers or any other defendants to become scapegoats for crowds who are demanding a continuation of rioting… Even the ACLU issued a statement today praising the indictment, and not mentioning the presumption of innocence, or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or due process…”

“There is no plausible, hypothetical, conceivable case for murder under the facts as we now know them. You might say conceivably, there is a case for manslaughter. My prediction—they have overplayed their hand. It is unlikely they’ll get any convictions in this case as a result of this and if they do there is a good possibility they will get reversed on appeal.”

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2061630/alan-dershowitz-harvard-law-professor-slams-marilyn-mosby-for-charges-brought-against-officers/#wPYxgx8llIzj0wTa.99
Link to all the riots that happened Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, between the time things settled down following the initial outburst Monday night and the announcement of the indictments on Friday morning?
So you feel that if the AG didn't file these charges on Friday you would have had no looting or rioting?

Let's say she just sent it to a grand jury,what reaction would have came next?

ETA:Also wanted to give you some props for going out and soaking in what was going on around you.
Most people - including the police conducting the investigation - were shocked that charges came down on Friday.

I agree that the next potential flashpoint was going to be whenever charges were announced, but nobody knew when that was going to be. Why was the curfew still in place Saturday, let alone Friday?

If the riots were so closely linked to the announcement of charges, then why were there no disturbances Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday?
I have no evidence to support this, but my guess is that the Mayweather fight may have had something to do with the curfew staying in place for Saturday night.

 

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