Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (1 Viewer)

[Hang 10]

Are there any responsible leaders who have done otherwise? Certainly Obama, whom conservatives are always eager to blame for the heightening of racial tensions, has been quick to denounce violence in every instance. 

Their own mayor gave them permission to riot last summer. Forgotten already?

 

[glvsav37]

Are there any responsible leaders who have done otherwise? Certainly Obama, whom conservatives are always eager to blame for the heightening of racial tensions, has been quick to denounce violence in every instance. 

Personal responsibility down? 

I'm so tired of people looking to 'leaders' for advice on how to live your life. Start by keeping fathers in the house and not young mothers forced to care for kids recklessly conceived on their own, focusing on educating yourself and stop thinking that thug culture will get you anywhere besides behind bars. Its really not that hard.

 

[shadrap]

Personal responsibility down? 

I'm so tired of people looking to 'leaders' for advice on how to live your life. Start by keeping fathers in the house and not young mothers forced to care for kids recklessly conceived on their own, focusing on educating yourself and stop thinking that thug culture will get you anywhere besides behind bars. Its really not that hard.

You mean people actually responsible for their own actions?  No way, it's way too easy to blame others.

 

[jonessed]

Are there any responsible leaders who have done otherwise? Certainly Obama, whom conservatives are always eager to blame for the heightening of racial tensions, has been quick to denounce violence in every instance. 

A responsible leader wouldn't condone violence so, no, I don't believe any of them have.  Plenty of irresponsible leaders have couched enabling language inside a denunciation of violence though, Baltimore's leaders included.

 

[glvsav37]

thats because these "leaders" need the strife to stay in business.

 

[shadrap]

thats because these "leaders" need the strife to stay in business.

Speaking of Rev. Jackson & Rev. Sharpton.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Personal responsibility down? 

I'm so tired of people looking to 'leaders' for advice on how to live your life. Start by keeping fathers in the house and not young mothers forced to care for kids recklessly conceived on their own, focusing on educating yourself and stop thinking that thug culture will get you anywhere besides behind bars. Its really not that hard.

no ####, great effing post.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Just let judges decide and hope they can be objective.

You got your wish.

 

[spreagle]

Somebody remind me why trial by jury is so great when everybody is divided and hates each other, not to mention stupid.  Big fan of bench trials going forward. 

 

[timschochet]

Their own mayor gave them permission to riot last summer. Forgotten already?

No. The idea was that once the rioting started, the police should let it continue for awhile to let people simmer down. I don't know whether or not this is a good or bad idea depending on the situation, but it's one that's been used by law enforcement before. 

 

[shadrap]

Somebody remind me why trial by jury is so great when everybody is divided and hates each other, not to mention stupid.  Big fan of bench trials going forward. 

I think the defendant in most cases gets to decide.  I think.

 

[timschochet]

Personal responsibility down? 

I'm so tired of people looking to 'leaders' for advice on how to live your life. Start by keeping fathers in the house and not young mothers forced to care for kids recklessly conceived on their own, focusing on educating yourself and stop thinking that thug culture will get you anywhere besides behind bars. Its really not that hard.

I'm sure a lot of people will agree with your post. To me it's too easy. I'm betting that you didn't grow up in a poor black family in a high crime urban neighborhood. I certainly didn't. In my view, those that escape that situation are remarkable, to be admired. Those that succumb to it are not blameless, but not entirely culpable either.

You say you are sick of these people depending on leaders. I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Their misery is OUR problem, OUR responsibility. 

 

[Smack Tripper]

I'm sure a lot of people will agree with your post. To me it's too easy. I'm betting that you didn't grow up in a poor black family in a high crime urban neighborhood. I certainly didn't. In my view, those that escape that situation are remarkable, to be admired. Those that succumb to it are not blameless, but not entirely culpable either.

You say you are sick of these people depending on leaders. I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Their misery is OUR problem, OUR responsibility. 

I agree with you and I would rather address these ills schools for the young than prisons for the old. 

But, at the end of the day, when the rubber meets the road, it at some point has to be about personal responsibility and choice. And people also have the human rights and autonomy to live free and raise their kids as they see fit. 

I work in these neighborhoods frequently, often with schools and government and a good student starts in the home and no amount of money you throw at this or individual intervention you apply can correct when frankly a parent who was a poor student with poor habits and life choices raises their kids with exactly what they know. And they were raised that way because their parents were that way and up the chain we go.   That's the issue we are up against and I really don't know how to address that without trampling individual liberty short of saying, "you have to do this and you have to pull yourself up"

 

[Hang 10]

No. The idea was that once the rioting started, the police should let it continue for awhile to let people simmer down. I don't know whether or not this is a good or bad idea depending on the situation, but it's one that's been used by law enforcement before. 

I guess you see this as a major distinction. I don't. 

 

[timschochet]

I agree with you and I would rather address these ills schools for the young than prisons for the old. 

But, at the end of the day, when the rubber meets the road, it at some point has to be about personal responsibility and choice. And people also have the human rights and autonomy to live free and raise their kids as they see fit. 

I work in these neighborhoods frequently, often with schools and government and a good student starts in the home and no amount of money you throw at this or individual intervention you apply can correct when frankly a parent who was a poor student with poor habits and life choices raises their kids with exactly what they know. And they were raised that way because their parents were that way and up the chain we go.   That's the issue we are up against and I really don't know how to address that without trampling individual liberty short of saying, "you have to do this and you have to pull yourself up"

You raise some good points here and I admire you for working in those areas. I have myself. 

 

[glvsav37]

your right....I grew up in an a pretty average middle class environment. And while i'm no psychologist or civic historian, I was taught what is right and wrong. 

Why did I need to be black to learn that having children and abandoning them is not good? wouldn't you think that if 'i' grew up watching a mom struggle to work and keep a house w/o a father around, that 'i' wouldn't want to put someone else through that? 

Why do I need to be black to learn that killing someone is illegal and wrong? Seeing friends killed (by their own neighbors) and lost to drugs or jail makes 'me' want to do the same? 

Maybe I misspoke about 'leaders' yes role models are important. But these people who are leading many of the black movements are more concerned about causing chaos and (as I posted before) keeping themselves employed as 'leaders' then solving any problems. 

I don't expect every impoverished community to all of a sudden wake up and there is rainbows and bunny rabbits. But I have faith that they can bring change if they take some level of person responsibility. 

But what about racism? Oh, the big bad white corporations won't hire black males!! There is a minor issue that many people who cry racism seem to be missing...professionalism. I don't own a company that employs people, but if there is an open position between me and a person who walks in with a hat on, pants drooping and talking liking they are ignorant and "keeping it real" then I pretty much feel confident about getting that job. Is that racist...no, its an employer who is concerned about their professional image to their clients and employees. Concerned that if a person can't show up to an interview like they want the job, how will they be on an average Tuesday? But yet, even if a person is trying to bring themselves up, the community knocks them down and looks down on them for trying to improve themselves. So you have communities that cry they are oppressed, while pressing themselves??

So yes...their problem may be our problem, but there needs to be a 2 way street. I don't see that. 

 

[Apple Jack]

Oof

 

[timschochet]

your right....I grew up in an a pretty average middle class environment. And while i'm no psychologist or civic historian, I was taught what is right and wrong. 

Why did I need to be black to learn that having children and abandoning them is not good? wouldn't you think that if 'i' grew up watching a mom struggle to work and keep a house w/o a father around, that 'i' wouldn't want to put someone else through that? 

Why do I need to be black to learn that killing someone is illegal and wrong? Seeing friends killed (by their own neighbors) and lost to drugs or jail makes 'me' want to do the same? 

Maybe I misspoke about 'leaders' yes role models are important. But these people who are leading many of the black movements are more concerned about causing chaos and (as I posted before) keeping themselves employed as 'leaders' then solving any problems. 

I don't expect every impoverished community to all of a sudden wake up and there is rainbows and bunny rabbits. But I have faith that they can bring change if they take some level of person responsibility. 

But what about racism? Oh, the big bad white corporations won't hire black males!! There is a minor issue that many people who cry racism seem to be missing...professionalism. I don't own a company that employs people, but if there is an open position between me and a person who walks in with a hat on, pants drooping and talking liking they are ignorant and "keeping it real" then I pretty much feel confident about getting that job. Is that racist...no, its an employer who is concerned about their professional image to their clients and employees. Concerned that if a person can't show up to an interview like they want the job, how will they be on an average Tuesday? But yet, even if a person is trying to bring themselves up, the community knocks them down and looks down on them for trying to improve themselves. So you have communities that cry they are oppressed, while pressing themselves??

So yes...their problem may be our problem, but there needs to be a 2 way street. I don't see that. 

I think you're well meaning, but I guess I just strongly disagree with your overall emphasis. 

 

[timschochet]

But these people who are leading many of the black movements are more concerned about causing chaos and (as I posted before) keeping themselves employed as 'leaders' then solving any problems. 
 

I think this is true of some but not of most.

And it occurs to me that one reason we never seem to be able to solve these issues is our constant demonizing of each side. For example, I wrote that young blacks are subject to institutionalized racism by police. But that doesn't make the police racist- it makes them, in most cases, subject to old or lazy habits which leads inevitably to racist actions. To me this is an important distinction, one that the Black Lives Matter folks never make- they would rather just think that the police are deliberately racist- because that too is a lazy approach. 

 

[glvsav37]

@timschochet I agree with (and guilty of) demonizing. I won't lie. I think one of our biggest issues as a culture is our current media outlets. They are controlling how greatly or not events are publicized and often shaping the narrative. At the same time, the 'leaders' (like Sharpton) are embraced by the media (and white house) while he leave a checkered past with Tawana Brawley and his tax evasion issues, only poping up when its a white/black issue...its hard not to feel like demonizing him. 

As i said, there is no clear 2 way street....its all eyes on the police and white males being accountable but none the other way. 

 

[cstu]

I think this is true of some but not of most.

And it occurs to me that one reason we never seem to be able to solve these issues is our constant demonizing of each side. For example, I wrote that young blacks are subject to institutionalized racism by police. But that doesn't make the police racist- it makes them, in most cases, subject to old or lazy habits which leads inevitably to racist actions. To me this is an important distinction, one that the Black Lives Matter folks never make- they would rather just think that the police are deliberately racist- because that too is a lazy approach. 

Obama:

When I was a state senator, I helped pass Illinois’s first racial profiling law, and one of the first laws in the nation requiring the videotaping of confessions in capital cases. And we were successful because, early on, I engaged law enforcement. I didn’t say to them, oh, you guys are so racist, you need to do something. I understood, as many of you do, that the overwhelming majority of police officers are good, and honest, and courageous, and fair, and love the communities they serve.

And we knew there were some bad apples, and that even the good cops with the best of intentions -- including, by the way, African American police officers -- might have unconscious biases, as we all do. So we engaged and we listened, and we kept working until we built consensus. And because we took the time to listen, we crafted legislation that was good for the police -- because it improved the trust and cooperation of the community -- and it was good for the communities, who were less likely to be treated unfairly. And I can say this unequivocally: Without at least the acceptance of the police organizations in Illinois, I could never have gotten those bills passed. Very simple. They would have blocked them.

 

[shadrap]

I'm sure a lot of people will agree with your post. To me it's too easy. I'm betting that you didn't grow up in a poor black family in a high crime urban neighborhood. I certainly didn't. In my view, those that escape that situation are remarkable, to be admired. Those that succumb to it are not blameless, but not entirely culpable either.

You say you are sick of these people depending on leaders. I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Their misery is OUR problem, OUR responsibility. 

Same old crap regarding your,: " I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".  We were poor( 8 kids in 13 years) but dad hung around & worked 3 jobs.   Also your;  "Their problem is our problem,  your responsibility ".  You & your racism junk is really getting old.  It's like your better than most because of your racism calls.   So tired, so old, and simply pathetic.  I have a suggestion.   As you live close to some of these dangerous areas why don't you get off your high horse & go door to door in the hood & pass out info sheets on how they can turn their lives around.  Looks to me like you have some spare time on your hands, give it a whirl & report back.

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

 

[Jayrod]

Same old crap regarding your,: " I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".  We were poor( 8 kids in 13 years) but dad hung around & worked 3 jobs.   Also your;  "Their problem is our problem,  your responsibility ".  You & your racism junk is really getting old.  It's like your better than most because of your racism calls.   So tired, so old, and simply pathetic.  I have a suggestion.   As you live close to some of these dangerous areas why don't you get off your high horse & go door to door in the hood & pass out info sheets on how they can turn their lives around.  Looks to me like you have some spare time on your hands, give it a whirl & report back.

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

 

[The Z Machine]

I'm just hoping this city stays chill for a bit.  I gotta ride my bike home through downtown right now.

 

[timschochet]

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

There are lots of charities you can give to that do good work in urban areas. Here's one I have given money to before: 

http://nul.iamempowered.com

 

[poopdawg]

Same old crap regarding your,: " I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".  We were poor( 8 kids in 13 years) but dad hung around & worked 3 jobs.   Also your;  "Their problem is our problem,  your responsibility ".  You & your racism junk is really getting old.  It's like your better than most because of your racism calls.   So tired, so old, and simply pathetic.  I have a suggestion.   As you live close to some of these dangerous areas why don't you get off your high horse & go door to door in the hood & pass out info sheets on how they can turn their lives around.  Looks to me like you have some spare time on your hands, give it a whirl & report back.

Also  O mighty one,  give me some suggestions on how I contributed to the plight of the blacks & inner city crime, & just how I can help.

If Tim put forth half the effort in helping the black community as he does posting on a message board, I think he could end all poverty as we know it. 

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

I don't understand why these black people can't just act like middle class white folk?  geez

You grow up with a single mother in the projects

You see single mom struggling to make ends meet

You go to a very bad school where kids are not there to learn, you meet other kids who could care case about an education

You start hanging out with your new friends because you don't want to sit in the 1 bedroom apartment all day/night

You try to impress your boys and meet a girl,  teenage hormones take over and you get a girl pregnant at say 16

At this point what do you do with your life?  16 and a father.  Probably still living at home.  Maybe you become an attorney with your excellent opportunities that have been bestowed upon you and you raise your family like a nice middle class white folk. 

Over simplification yes.  But, people act as if environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  

 

[avoiding injuries]

I don't understand why these black people can't just act like middle class white folk?  geez

You grow up with a single mother in the projects

You see single mom struggling to make ends meet

You go to a very bad school where kids are not there to learn, you meet other kids who could care case about an education

You start hanging out with your new friends because you don't want to sit in the 1 bedroom apartment all day/night

You try to impress your boys and meet a girl,  teenage hormones take over and you get a girl pregnant at say 16

At this point what do you do with your life?  16 and a father.  Probably still living at home.  Maybe you become an attorney with your excellent opportunities that have been bestowed upon you and you raise your family like a nice middle class white folk. 

Over simplification yes.  But, people act as if environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  

You can try to break the cycle

 

[Gary Coal Man]

I don't understand why these black people can't just act like middle class white folk?  geez

You grow up with a single mother in the projects

You see single mom struggling to make ends meet

You go to a very bad school where kids are not there to learn, you meet other kids who could care case about an education

You start hanging out with your new friends because you don't want to sit in the 1 bedroom apartment all day/night

You try to impress your boys and meet a girl,  teenage hormones take over and you get a girl pregnant at say 16

At this point what do you do with your life?  16 and a father.  Probably still living at home.  Maybe you become an attorney with your excellent opportunities that have been bestowed upon you and you raise your family like a nice middle class white folk. 

Over simplification yes.  But, people act as if environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  

Yes, that is an oversimplification, and likely also a mischaracterization.    People aren't arguing that environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  Most people are arguing that they're not responsible for that environment, and environment should not exonerate you from all responsibility to act within acceptable societal norms because we all have free will.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Yes, that is an oversimplification, and likely also a mischaracterization.    People aren't arguing that environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  Most people are arguing that they're not responsible for that environment, and environment should not exonerate you from all responsibility to act within acceptable societal norms because we all have free will.

Which of us as a young adult or teenager went against the grain?  Really hard to 'break the cycle' when your parent/s don't have any life skills to share with you.  Maybe not a role model around to learn from other than some thugs to learn "keep it real!"    Most kids want to be cool, fit in with your buddies.   I see it everyday with my own twins.  Would be so easy for them to smoke a joint, cigarette, screw some chick willing to give it up to be considered cool by their peers.  

Quick story -  when I was 11 or 12 years old we had an old rail road track that ran behind our elementary school.  One day my best friend and I were walking along the tracks and my friend picked up a rock and threw it knocking out a pane of glass.  I picked up a rock and did the same thing.  When it was finished we had knocked out around 70 pane glass windows.  Well the janitor saw us "Why the #### he was still at the school I still don't know?" and gave chase.  My friend was faster and got away.  Well I was caught and after my Dad whupped my ### I had to help the janitor that summer replacing the broken glass.  

Broken glass = turned over police car.  No one thinks at the moment about what is going to happen at a later time.  Just wanna be cool and hang out with the boys.

 

[RnR]

Yes, that is an oversimplification, and likely also a mischaracterization.    People aren't arguing that environment doesn't have a large influence on your life.  Most people are arguing that they're not responsible for that environment, and environment should not exonerate you from all responsibility to act within acceptable societal norms because we all have free will.

Yes. 1000000000000000 times yes.

 

[shadrap]

Yes. 1000000000000000 times yes.

Yes again.  I don't have a racist bone in my body.  Never had, never will.   The generic labeling;  that's what pisses me off. 

 

[shadrap]

There are lots of charities you can give to that do good work in urban areas. Here's one I have given money to before: 

http://nul.iamempowered.com

Cool.  So how did the volunteer stuff work out in the hood?  I thought so. 

no disrespect-just fact.

 

[shadrap]

I normally give to a particular church, as I don't have to look at the salaries; i.e.; United Way & the rest.   Charities should not have salaries. IMO.  Actually Hillary gave a speech for a charity gathering and only charged them $200,000.00 and change.  Look it up.  Yea she cares.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I normally give to a particular church, as I don't have to look at the salaries; i.e.; United Way & the rest.   Charities should not have salaries. IMO.  Actually Hillary gave a speech for a charity gathering and only charged them $200,000.00 and change.  Look it up.  Yea she cares.

Which she "donated" to her own charity.  Not saying she shouldn't have donated back to the first charity but you're not telling the whole story.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Which she "donated" to her own charity.  Not saying she shouldn't have donated back to the first charity but you're not telling the whole story.  

And another part of the story is the charity underreported the fees and kicked back some income on the back end as well. (Not really relevant to Baltimore but anyway...).

 

[BoltBacker]

I normally give to a particular church, as I don't have to look at the salaries; i.e.; United Way & the rest.   Charities should not have salaries. IMO.  Actually Hillary gave a speech for a charity gathering and only charged them $200,000.00 and change.  Look it up.  Yea she cares.

Well, the church has been known for touching the lives of a lot of young people. Nice to hear you are supporting that.

 

[shadrap]

Well, the church has been known for touching the lives of a lot of young people. Nice to hear you are supporting that.

Actually it's church that's called St. Joseph's.  They helped me growing up.  Big time .   I needed it.

 

[timschochet]

Actually it's church that's called St. Joseph's.  They helped me growing up.  Big time .   I needed it.

Good for you for giving back. 

On the rest, we really disagree. 

 

[flapgreen]

I'm sure a lot of people will agree with your post. To me it's too easy. I'm betting that you didn't grow up in a poor black family in a high crime urban neighborhood. I certainly didn't. In my view, those that escape that situation are remarkable, to be admired. Those that succumb to it are not blameless, but not entirely culpable either.

You say you are sick of these people depending on leaders. I'm sick of people who haven't lived through racism and poverty expecting everyone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Their misery is OUR problem, OUR responsibility. 

I couldn't disagree more here.  As difficult as it may be to understand,  without people eventually taking responsibility for their own actions,  there's no one else to blame but themselves.  Life isn't fair sometimes.  That's just how the world works.   That's not to say things can't be improved by those who are able to help change things,  but it won't amount to anything unless people accept responsibility themselves and quit blaming others.  But we live in the "blaming"  society.  That's also how the world works and it's enabled by many. 

 

[timschochet]

I couldn't disagree more here.  As difficult as it may be to understand,  without people eventually taking responsibility for their own actions,  there's no one else to blame but themselves.  Life isn't fair sometimes.  That's just how the world works.   That's not to say things can't be improved by those who are able to help change things,  but it won't amount to anything unless people accept responsibility themselves and quit blaming others.  But we live in the "blaming"  society.  That's also how the world works and it's enabled by many. 

I respect this opinion, and of course it's shared by many many people (including several of my closest loved ones.) But I don't see it, and that's probably why, despite my firm belief in capitalism, I don't think I could ever call myself a conservative. It's not an even playing field. It never has been. We need to recognize the inequities, and try to adjust for them. 

 

[glvsav37]

so how do 'we' adjust?

• more affirmative action?

• more welfare?

• more housing credits?

• free babysitting?

its easy to just say recognize and adjust, but whats going to be the thing to make everything right?

however, to be fair...I will say one of the biggest problems in many of these communities is the overly harsh prison sentences and the never ending legal cycle (both money and time) that people face once they get caught up in the system. That needs to change.

 

[timschochet]

so how do 'we' adjust?

• more affirmative action?

• more welfare?

• more housing credits?

• free babysitting?

its easy to just say recognize and adjust, but whats going to be the thing to make everything right?

however, to be fair...I will say one of the biggest problems in many of these communities is the overly harsh prison sentences and the never ending legal cycle (both money and time) that people face once they get caught up in the system. That needs to change.

I don't know how we adjust. 

One argument that conservatives have made over the years is that these cities typically have Democratic city governments and get lots of spending. On education they often already receive more money per student than do a lot of more prosperous communities. These facts argue against the "liberal approach" and they are compelling, at least to me. But then I ask my conservative friends, "OK, you make a good point. What we're doing is not working. What do you suggest instead?" And they seem to have few answers for this, other than to do nothing. I can't accept that either. So I don't know. 

But your point about prison sentences is valid and something that I think many conservatives and liberals see eye to eye on...

 

[shadrap]

Good for you for giving back. 

On the rest, we really disagree. 

Yes, especially the racist deal you keep throwing at everyone that doesn't toe the line with your political views.  Your argument is actually racist. 

Whatever.  It's all good so long as there is a dissertation.

 

[shadrap]

I don't know how we adjust. 

One argument that conservatives have made over the years is that these cities typically have Democratic city governments and get lots of spending. On education they often already receive more money per student than do a lot of more prosperous communities. These facts argue against the "liberal approach" and they are compelling, at least to me. But then I ask my conservative friends, "OK, you make a good point. What we're doing is not working. What do you suggest instead?" And they seem to have few answers for this, other than to do nothing. I can't accept that either. So I don't know. 

But your point about prison sentences is valid and something that I think many conservatives and liberals see eye to eye on...

Cool, you are back in the real world.   Can hardly wait until I'm called a racist & a bigot again.

 

[timschochet]

Cool, you are back in the real world.   Can hardly wait until I'm called a racist & a bigot again.

I have never once called you a racist in this thread. Perhaps you're referring to somebody else? 

I wrote that there is institutionalized racism that exists against young black men in urban areas. I wrote that most of the police are not deliberately racist, but they're trained in a lazy way that leads to racist results. You're free to disagree with me on these two points, but I'm prepared to defend them. Please show me where I called you a racist or a bigot. 

 

[glvsav37]

I don't know how we adjust. 

One argument that conservatives have made over the years is that these cities typically have Democratic city governments and get lots of spending. On education they often already receive more money per student than do a lot of more prosperous communities. These facts argue against the "liberal approach" and they are compelling, at least to me. But then I ask my conservative friends, "OK, you make a good point. What we're doing is not working. What do you suggest instead?" And they seem to have few answers for this, other than to do nothing. I can't accept that either. So I don't know. 

But your point about prison sentences is valid and something that I think many conservatives and liberals see eye to eye on...

I agree....many of these hot button communities are Democratically led, and it isnt working. I'm not saying it needs to switch to R, but I would suggest that there is either a flaw in the way these gov'ts are managing things, or if the money is going where it needs to go in the first place. I honestly don't believe that the current welfare system is successful. We are rewarding people for not working and having children that cannot be sustained and then further muddy up the system. I would rather see us move to more tiered approach whereas people can work and earn a wage, yet still be able to collect, just at lower percentages, vs just cutting them off completely. 

But again, it goes back to my 1st post, it is a matter of personal responsibility. We have created communities where very few are productive even within their towns. You want your check, go volunteer and do community service for a few hours. Go take a class at the local community center.

Same for the voter ID situation. (I know, there is a whole other thread and I dont want to get off topic), but why is it that the people who dont work say its too hard to go get an ID? Yet this privileged middle class guy who works 45+ hours a week still finds the time to drag my ### to the DMV to get my #### done? But I bet when the check needs to be cashed, they can squeeze a few minutes into getting that done?

I get it, situations suck in many of these communities, but excuses only go so far. Regardless of my upbringing. I could toss out excuses like "work is too hard" or "no one will hire me so I give up" and I'd find my ### out on the middle class pavement. But I don't...because I'm an adult, not a white or black adult, just an adult who knows that my actions will inevitably be what defines me. 

 

[glvsav37]

And to just piggy back my post:

We as a nation have had almost 8 years of a Democratic president, and many years of democratic majority. Shouldn't these areas be better?

Back to leadership and role models. We elected our 1st black president. Isn't there a bigger role model to give disenfranchised youth something to hope for?

or is it that no matter what, these communities will never change?

 

[shadrap]

I have never once called you a racist in this thread. Perhaps you're referring to somebody else? 

I wrote that there is institutionalized racism that exists against young black men in urban areas. I wrote that most of the police are not deliberately racist, but they're trained in a lazy way that leads to racist results. You're free to disagree with me on these two points, but I'm prepared to defend them. Please show me where I called you a racist or a bigot. 

Actually not now.  Your arguments are so stimulated by your political beliefs that you can't see the other side.  For peats sake, you treat me good, I treat you good.  I I'm Irish, white, and never thought about the deal you keep mentioning. I can mention the good friends I have, by name, that are black, but you don't wan't to hear that.   Your political party & you has kept these good people under the guise of "vote for us, it's not your fault".  This has stalled the black movement.  As MLK said " I'm Tired".   So am I of hearing your constant call of racism.  How did go in the hood handing out info grams in the LA area?

Pretty sure if it didn't go so well it's because I'm white & Irish.

 

[timschochet]

Erin go Bragh my friend!