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Baseball/Softball rules question (1 Viewer)

Pipes

Pipes

Footballguy
In a casual softball league where we ump our own game. This situation happened that I've never seen before that led to a heated discussion. Typically no issues but tonight it sucked not having an ump. Here's the scenario...

Guys on 1st and 2nd with 1 out. Ground ball up the middle that the SS fields but the runner on 2B has a brain fart and doesn't realize there is a guy on 1st and that it's a force so he goes back to 2B. SS tags him while he is standing on 2B then touches the base to force out the runner from 1st. Fielding team claims a double play while the hitting team says the runner who was on 2B is safe as he was tagged while on base ( no dispute with him being on base at the time of the tag) and the runner coming from 1st was out going to second due to the force out.

Who's correct is it a double play or is only he runner going from 1B to 2B out?

 
Pipes said:
In a casual softball league where we ump our own game. This situation happened that I've never seen before that led to a heated discussion. Typically no issues but tonight it sucked not having an ump. Here's the scenario...

Guys on 1st and 2nd with 1 out. Ground ball up the middle that the SS fields but the runner on 2B has a brain fart and doesn't realize there is a guy on 1st and that it's a force so he goes back to 2B. SS tags him while he is standing on 2B then touches the base to force out the runner from 1st. Fielding team claims a double play while the hitting team says the runner who was on 2B is safe as he was tagged while on base ( no dispute with him being on base at the time of the tag) and the runner coming from 1st was out going to second due to the force out.

Who's correct is it a double play or is only he runner going from 1B to 2B out?
Click to expand...
easy.

DP.

As long as he tagged the lead runner first and didn't touch 2nd base first.

Touching 2nd base first takes off the force play on the lead runner.

Not touching it first means that the lead runner has to run to 3rd. 2nd isn't safe haven.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Pipes said:
In a casual softball league where we ump our own game. This situation happened that I've never seen before that led to a heated discussion. Typically no issues but tonight it sucked not having an ump. Here's the scenario...

Guys on 1st and 2nd with 1 out. Ground ball up the middle that the SS fields but the runner on 2B has a brain fart and doesn't realize there is a guy on 1st and that it's a force so he goes back to 2B. SS tags him while he is standing on 2B then touches the base to force out the runner from 1st. Fielding team claims a double play while the hitting team says the runner who was on 2B is safe as he was tagged while on base ( no dispute with him being on base at the time of the tag) and the runner coming from 1st was out going to second due to the force out.

Who's correct is it a double play or is only he runner going from 1B to 2B out?
Click to expand...
easy.

DP.

As long as he tagged the lead runner first and didn't touch 2nd base first.

Touching 2nd base first takes off the force play on the lead runner.

Not touching it first means that the lead runner has to run to 3rd. 2nd isn't safe haven.
Click to expand...
Thanks we were the fielding team and that's what we argued. They had a couple of dbags that insisted he was safe since he was standing on 2B. We argued for a couple of minutes and we eventually said #### it since it's beer league softball.

 
Mr. Retukes said:
Pipes said:
They had a couple of dbags that insisted he was safe since he was standing on 2B.
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What if the runner from 1st had made it to 2nd? Would they both be safe at 2nd?
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If a runner is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner and two runners are touching a base to which the following runner is forced, the following runner is entitled to the base and the preceding runner shall be out when tagged or when a fielder possesses the ball and touches the base to which such preceding runner is forced.So in this situation mentioned in the thread starter, it's a DP

 
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Getzlaf15 said:
Pipes said:
In a casual softball league where we ump our own game. This situation happened that I've never seen before that led to a heated discussion. Typically no issues but tonight it sucked not having an ump. Here's the scenario...

Guys on 1st and 2nd with 1 out. Ground ball up the middle that the SS fields but the runner on 2B has a brain fart and doesn't realize there is a guy on 1st and that it's a force so he goes back to 2B. SS tags him while he is standing on 2B then touches the base to force out the runner from 1st. Fielding team claims a double play while the hitting team says the runner who was on 2B is safe as he was tagged while on base ( no dispute with him being on base at the time of the tag) and the runner coming from 1st was out going to second due to the force out.

Who's correct is it a double play or is only he runner going from 1B to 2B out?
Click to expand...
easy.

DP.

As long as he tagged the lead runner first and didn't touch 2nd base first.

Touching 2nd base first takes off the force play on the lead runner.

Not touching it first means that the lead runner has to run to 3rd. 2nd isn't safe haven.
Click to expand...
This is correct

 
Mr. Retukes said:
Pipes said:
They had a couple of dbags that insisted he was safe since he was standing on 2B.
Click to expand...
What if the runner from 1st had made it to 2nd? Would they both be safe at 2nd?
Click to expand...
As mentioned, since there is a force play, the original runner on 2nd is cannot stay there as the trailing runner is entitled to it. Every once in a while you'll see this in MLB; the infielder will tag both runners just to be sure.

 
In one of my daughter's tournament games I had an entire coaching staff argue a ball was foul because it hit foul first. The girl picked it up 3 feet in fair territory. This was about half way up the base line. The umpire did everything he could from laughing

 
What if the SS touches 2nd base FIRST and then tags the baserunner? I think its still a double play because if its a force-out, the runner must try to advance to the next base. But if the shortstop had just thrown to first base, the runners could stay on 1st and 2nd, since a force-out was not completed.

 
ArbyMelt said:
What if the SS touches 2nd base FIRST and then tags the baserunner? I think its still a double play because if its a force-out, the runner must try to advance to the next base. But if the shortstop had just thrown to first base, the runners could stay on 1st and 2nd, since a force-out was not completed.
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If he touches the base first, the runner on second is under no obligation to go anywhere since the guy behind him is out. How I turned my first triple play in little league: Tag the runner, tag the base, throw to first :bowtie:

 
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ArbyMelt said:
What if the SS touches 2nd base FIRST and then tags the baserunner? I think its still a double play because if its a force-out, the runner must try to advance to the next base. But if the shortstop had just thrown to first base, the runners could stay on 1st and 2nd, since a force-out was not completed.
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Not a double play. If the base is touched first, the force is taken away and so is the runner's obligation to go to third.

 
Bad form to deliberately let a ball drop to turn a double play (in a rec coed league)?

Last night, runner on first, one out, there was a liner hit towards me at SS, it was going to land a foot or two in front of me, but I could have pretty easily made the catch if I wanted to. I let it land, scooped it and turned the double play to end the inning. It wasn't too obvious that I deliberately let it land to most, but the smarter players there would have known. I thought after it might have been a #### move, but it was a tie game in the top of the 9th and my instincts kicked in.

Then, I led off the bottom of the inning with a walk off HR :bowtie:

 
ArbyMelt said:
What if the SS touches 2nd base FIRST and then tags the baserunner? I think its still a double play because if its a force-out, the runner must try to advance to the next base. But if the shortstop had just thrown to first base, the runners could stay on 1st and 2nd, since a force-out was not completed.
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the runners can stay on first and second? Wut?

 
I was coaching my sons 7-8 year old baseball team a few years back in a machine pitch league. We were making a comeback and only down 1 run with runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 out in the bottom of the last inning. Our weakest hitter was up and hit a ball that bounced off home plate and proceeded to go about a foot in front of home plate. Our hitter ran down to 1st base and the runners advanced. The umpire, after my player made it to 1st base called time and said it was a foul ball. I asked why and he said the ball hit the plate. This league used high school kids for umpires but I thought anyone who has played baseball would understand this rule. I made sure the umpire didnt believe the ball hit the batter and drew lines from home plate to the bases illustrating that all of home plate was in fair territory. He tried calling the head of the umpires on the phone but couldn't reach him and ultimately called a foul ball.

Of course our hitter struck out and the next hitter got out and we lost by one run.

 
Don said:
I was coaching my sons 7-8 year old baseball team a few years back in a machine pitch league. We were making a comeback and only down 1 run with runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 out in the bottom of the last inning. Our weakest hitter was up and hit a ball that bounced off home plate and proceeded to go about a foot in front of home plate. Our hitter ran down to 1st base and the runners advanced. The umpire, after my player made it to 1st base called time and said it was a foul ball. I asked why and he said the ball hit the plate. This league used high school kids for umpires but I thought anyone who has played baseball would understand this rule. I made sure the umpire didnt believe the ball hit the batter and drew lines from home plate to the bases illustrating that all of home plate was in fair territory. He tried calling the head of the umpires on the phone but couldn't reach him and ultimately called a foul ball.

Of course our hitter struck out and the next hitter got out and we lost by one run.
Click to expand...
yeah our league uses kids still also. We try to talk to them between innings when stuff like this happens. He screwed us out of a run this past weekend :lol:
 
Northern Voice said:
Bad form to deliberately let a ball drop to turn a double play (in a rec coed league)?

Last night, runner on first, one out, there was a liner hit towards me at SS, it was going to land a foot or two in front of me, but I could have pretty easily made the catch if I wanted to. I let it land, scooped it and turned the double play to end the inning. It wasn't too obvious that I deliberately let it land to most, but the smarter players there would have known. I thought after it might have been a #### move, but it was a tie game in the top of the 9th and my instincts kicked in.

Then, I led off the bottom of the inning with a walk off HR :bowtie:
Click to expand...
Nah, all good. Especially since you didn't actually drop it.

 
Ok...another Little League question, this time 9U Kid Pitch.

During a game we had an opposing batter swing and foul-tip a ball which was caught by our catcher. The Head Coach thought the batter should be out, but the umpire said no it counts as a strike. This went back and forth for about 5 minutes, with it ending having the batter finish his at bat.

What is the rule on when a caught foul tip is an out vs a strike? I've been looking online, but I only see that a foul tip is a strike when it is caught by the catcher, otherwise it is a foul ball. I keep score/stats for the team and having to discuss it with 3 coaches on our team and 2 on the other team had me running in circles, as no one could agree on it. Thoughts?

 
Foul tip being caught is only an out on the third strike. The ball has to be popped up at a certain height (6ft?) to be considered an out with less than three strikes.

 
Peak said:
Ok...another Little League question, this time 9U Kid Pitch.

During a game we had an opposing batter swing and foul-tip a ball which was caught by our catcher. The Head Coach thought the batter should be out, but the umpire said no it counts as a strike. This went back and forth for about 5 minutes, with it ending having the batter finish his at bat.

What is the rule on when a caught foul tip is an out vs a strike? I've been looking online, but I only see that a foul tip is a strike when it is caught by the catcher, otherwise it is a foul ball. I keep score/stats for the team and having to discuss it with 3 coaches on our team and 2 on the other team had me running in circles, as no one could agree on it. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The tip would need to go above the batters shoulder ( I think? ) to be considered a foul pop out. A direct foul tip back to the glove is a strike if caught, a foul if not caught.

 
One of the more common misconceptions is that a runner who does not tag is considered a force out. It is not a force out and any run which scores before the runner is out counts. Now if the runner who scored also did not tag up, it creates a situation where you have to appeal to that base and potentially get a fourth out called in order to prevent that run from counting.

 
Northern Voice said:
Bad form to deliberately let a ball drop to turn a double play (in a rec coed league)?

Last night, runner on first, one out, there was a liner hit towards me at SS, it was going to land a foot or two in front of me, but I could have pretty easily made the catch if I wanted to. I let it land, scooped it and turned the double play to end the inning. It wasn't too obvious that I deliberately let it land to most, but the smarter players there would have known. I thought after it might have been a #### move, but it was a tie game in the top of the 9th and my instincts kicked in.

Then, I led off the bottom of the inning with a walk off HR :bowtie:
Click to expand...
There are softball leagues that play 9 innings? especially a coed?

 
ArbyMelt said:
Northern Voice said:
Bad form to deliberately let a ball drop to turn a double play (in a rec coed league)?

Last night, runner on first, one out, there was a liner hit towards me at SS, it was going to land a foot or two in front of me, but I could have pretty easily made the catch if I wanted to. I let it land, scooped it and turned the double play to end the inning. It wasn't too obvious that I deliberately let it land to most, but the smarter players there would have known. I thought after it might have been a #### move, but it was a tie game in the top of the 9th and my instincts kicked in.

Then, I led off the bottom of the inning with a walk off HR :bowtie:
Click to expand...
There are softball leagues that play 9 innings? especially a coed?
Click to expand...
Yeah, my local league. They used to play two 55 minute/7 inning games, then a few years back switched to one 90 minute/9 inning game. They rarely make it 9 innings, but it was really cold here last night and made for a quite a few quick innings.

This league also uses wooden bats for guys (official softball only, no bamboo), girls can use aluminum. I love the way they've set it up, makes it safer, makes it so you actually have to know how to hit a baseball, not "best bat wins", and generally creates lower scoring competitive games.

 
A buddy of mine relayed this story from when he coached machine pitch a couple years ago:

Their league didn't provide umpires, the coaches umpd the game. The coaches of the batting team ump their own half inning. My friends team is in the field so the other coach is umping. Batter hits a ball down the line, hits clearly in fair territory but spins foul (weak line drive, not near first base yet). Coach of the hitters tells his runners to keep advancing. Once the play is dead, friend goes to talk to the other coach and explain that it doesn't matter if it originally hit in fair territory, it rolled foul and is a foul ball. Other coach was adamant that it hit fair, so it is a fair ball. Not thinking machine pitch was worth a fight, friend backs down, game proceeds.

Same thing happens again an inning or two later, same results. After the play, friend goes to the other coach and says "listen, we're here to teach these kids how to play baseball. This is a foul ball. What kind of beer do you drink?" Look up the rules later and if I'm wrong, I'll buy you a case of beer." Other coach says he's not much of a drinker. "I'll buy you dinner! This is a foul ball." Other coach finally backs down. Foul ball called, game proceeds. You might see what is coming.

An inning or two later, friends team is now batting and a kid hits a ball down the line, hits in fair territory, passes first base, then rolls into foul territory. Buddy is obviously telling his runners to keep going. Other coach runs on to the field screaming "What!? You just said that if the ball rolls foul it's a foul ball but now you are having your kids running on the same thing!"

At the time I served on our local football board with the other coach but I had to resign because I couldn't deal with his idiocy.

 
Bull Dozier said:
A buddy of mine relayed this story from when he coached machine pitch a couple years ago:

Their league didn't provide umpires, the coaches umpd the game. The coaches of the batting team ump their own half inning. My friends team is in the field so the other coach is umping. Batter hits a ball down the line, hits clearly in fair territory but spins foul (weak line drive, not near first base yet). Coach of the hitters tells his runners to keep advancing. Once the play is dead, friend goes to talk to the other coach and explain that it doesn't matter if it originally hit in fair territory, it rolled foul and is a foul ball. Other coach was adamant that it hit fair, so it is a fair ball. Not thinking machine pitch was worth a fight, friend backs down, game proceeds.

Same thing happens again an inning or two later, same results. After the play, friend goes to the other coach and says "listen, we're here to teach these kids how to play baseball. This is a foul ball. What kind of beer do you drink?" Look up the rules later and if I'm wrong, I'll buy you a case of beer." Other coach says he's not much of a drinker. "I'll buy you dinner! This is a foul ball." Other coach finally backs down. Foul ball called, game proceeds. You might see what is coming.

An inning or two later, friends team is now batting and a kid hits a ball down the line, hits in fair territory, passes first base, then rolls into foul territory. Buddy is obviously telling his runners to keep going. Other coach runs on to the field screaming "What!? You just said that if the ball rolls foul it's a foul ball but now you are having your kids running on the same thing!"

At the time I served on our local football board with the other coach but I had to resign because I couldn't deal with his idiocy.
Click to expand...
Well, that is what was said..... ;)

 
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belljr said:
ArbyMelt said:
What if the SS touches 2nd base FIRST and then tags the baserunner? I think its still a double play because if its a force-out, the runner must try to advance to the next base. But if the shortstop had just thrown to first base, the runners could stay on 1st and 2nd, since a force-out was not completed.
Click to expand...
the runners can stay on first and second? Wut?
Click to expand...
While his first statement is wrong, his second is actually correct. If the SS threw the ball to first (assuming 1B has his foot on the bag), then runner's at 1st and 2nd (assuming they never moved) are safe and they couldn't be tagged out if they stayed at 1st and 2nd.

A couple years ago, the same scenario happened when I was playing 2nd in softball. Caught a one hopper and tagged the guy at 2nd who never ran and then the base. Ump called a DP and the inning was over.

 
i haven't read other answers, but the runner on second can be tagged out regardless of where he is standing because he is forced to advance. he can't hide on the base he occupies, since the preceeding runner is entitled to it. However, if the fielder stepped on 2nd first, the force is removed and the guy who didn't move is then safe, since no one is entitled to the base.

 
stbugs said:
belljr said:
ArbyMelt said:
What if the SS touches 2nd base FIRST and then tags the baserunner? I think its still a double play because if its a force-out, the runner must try to advance to the next base. But if the shortstop had just thrown to first base, the runners could stay on 1st and 2nd, since a force-out was not completed.
Click to expand...
the runners can stay on first and second? Wut?
Click to expand...
While his first statement is wrong, his second is actually correct. If the SS threw the ball to first (assuming 1B has his foot on the bag), then runner's at 1st and 2nd (assuming they never moved) are safe and they couldn't be tagged out if they stayed at 1st and 2nd.A couple years ago, the same scenario happened when I was playing 2nd in softball. Caught a one hopper and tagged the guy at 2nd who never ran and then the base. Ump called a DP and the inning was over.
Click to expand...
oh understand what he is saying now. I didn't get what he wrote.no different than touching first first on a double play and then having to tag the runner.

Yes a foul tip catch on strike 3 is an out. How do we not know this

 
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Cjw_55106 said:
Foul tip being caught is only an out on the third strike. The ball has to be popped up at a certain height (6ft?) to be considered an out with less than three strikes.
Click to expand...
guidline is usually over the batter's head......and the foul tip catch must be clean. if the 3rd strike is a foul tip that hits the catcher's mask goes straight down and into his glove, this is just a strike and not an out, at bat continues.

 
belljr said:
stbugs said:
belljr said:
ArbyMelt said:
What if the SS touches 2nd base FIRST and then tags the baserunner? I think its still a double play because if its a force-out, the runner must try to advance to the next base. But if the shortstop had just thrown to first base, the runners could stay on 1st and 2nd, since a force-out was not completed.
Click to expand...
the runners can stay on first and second? Wut?
Click to expand...
While his first statement is wrong, his second is actually correct. If the SS threw the ball to first (assuming 1B has his foot on the bag), then runner's at 1st and 2nd (assuming they never moved) are safe and they couldn't be tagged out if they stayed at 1st and 2nd.A couple years ago, the same scenario happened when I was playing 2nd in softball. Caught a one hopper and tagged the guy at 2nd who never ran and then the base. Ump called a DP and the inning was over.
Click to expand...
oh didn't 7nderstand what he is saying now. I didn't get understand what he wrote.no different than touching first first on a double play and then having to tag the runner.

Yes a foul tip catch on strike 3 is an out. How do we not know this
Click to expand...
Just the tip?

 
Peak said:
Ok...another Little League question, this time 9U Kid Pitch.

During a game we had an opposing batter swing and foul-tip a ball which was caught by our catcher. The Head Coach thought the batter should be out, but the umpire said no it counts as a strike. This went back and forth for about 5 minutes, with it ending having the batter finish his at bat.

What is the rule on when a caught foul tip is an out vs a strike? I've been looking online, but I only see that a foul tip is a strike when it is caught by the catcher, otherwise it is a foul ball. I keep score/stats for the team and having to discuss it with 3 coaches on our team and 2 on the other team had me running in circles, as no one could agree on it. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Not sure I understand the issue here. Were they questioning whether it was a "foul tip" or a "foul ball caught"? Foul tips are only an out on the third strike. There should be ZERO question about that. I've been part of games where there was question of whether it was a foul tip or not though. The rule, as explained by two different umps, was that if the ball goes above the name on the front of the jersey, it's a foul ball and if caught, an out. I've never actually looked up the rule though.

 
MLB Definition: A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catchers hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catchers glove or hand.

I have never heard of the rule specifying the name of the front of the jersey. which seems kind of arbitrary. I always assumed it had to go above the players shoulders, but the definition does not seem that specific.

 
Ive never seen a difinitive rule about what constitutes a pop-up vs foul tip. I think its a judgement call, but I could be wrong. We all know it when we see it.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Ive never seen a difinitive rule about what constitutes a pop-up vs foul tip. I think its a judgement call, but I could be wrong. We all know it when we see it.
Click to expand...
I posted it above and it is a judgment....'sharp and direct' into the catchers glove and caught.

 
jon_mx said:
Cjw_55106 said:
Ive never seen a difinitive rule about what constitutes a pop-up vs foul tip. I think its a judgement call, but I could be wrong. We all know it when we see it.
Click to expand...
I posted it above and it is a judgment....'sharp and direct' into the catchers glove and caught.
Click to expand...
I was referring more to the pop up rule vs a foul ball. If a tip is not "sharp and direct", that doesnt mean its necessarily a pop up either.

 
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