Belichick > Brady (2 Viewers)

[Niles Standish]

That whole season was smoke and mirrors. It was in the days before quantitative writers like Schatz, Barnwell and Clay had really broken through to explain concepts like regression to the mean, Pythagorean Expectation and turnover luck, but I remember it being really obvious at the time that KC wasn't a particularly good team and that their success wasn't sustainable. And sure enough, the following season they returned to mediocrity.

Belichick took a team that was super talented around the QB to 11-5 (10-5 with Cassel as starter) and the way many people in this thread talk it really hurts Brady's legacy.  On the other side Haley takes a team (that was probably less talented around Cassel) to 10-6 (10-5 with Cassel as starter) and it was all smoke and mirrors.

Not arguing with you that team probably finished well above what they should have.  But the fact that Cassel started 66 games after the Pats season and went the same 10-5 2 years later tells me that he's not terrible.  He's borderline starter level.  If he wasn't he wouldn't have started 81 games in his career (which is very slightly more than 5 complete seasons).  Backup level guys don't get that many chances.

That was my only argument on the whole thing.  Cassel was one of the best backups in the league or one of the worst starters.  Very similar to Brian Hoyer.  He's not Curtis Painter who went 0-8 and never started again or Dan Orlovsky who went 2-9 career (although 2-3 was after taking over the Colts the year Manning was down once they locked down the #1 pick).

 

[TwinTurbo]

Brady >>> Belichick

They both brought out the best in each other. But I'll take a franchise QB over any coach every time. And a QB like Brady, Peyton, or Montana is worth every coach in the league plus Belichick and his entire staff. Now one could argue that Brady would not be a HOF QB without him. But Belichick almost certainly would have zero Superbowl rings as HC without Brady. 

 

[Gopher State]

Brady >>> Belichick

They both brought out the best in each other. But I'll take a franchise QB over any coach every time. And a QB like Brady, Peyton, or Montana is worth every coach in the league plus Belichick and his entire staff. Now one could argue that Brady would not be a HOF QB without him. But Belichick almost certainly would have zero Superbowl rings as HC without Brady. 

X2

 

[fred_1_15301]

Brady >>> Belichick

They both brought out the best in each other. But I'll take a franchise QB over any coach every time. And a QB like Brady, Peyton, or Montana is worth every coach in the league plus Belichick and his entire staff. Now one could argue that Brady would not be a HOF QB without him. But Belichick almost certainly would have zero Superbowl rings as HC without Brady. 

Completely disagree with the last sentence.  Belichick is the best coach in football.  He would have won at least one Super Bowl without Brady.  Hell take a look at Brady’s first SuperBowl win.  That whole playoff run had little to do with Brady and a lot to do with coaching (and a bit of luck).  He’s the most prepared coach in football.  If there is an advantage, he will find it.

 

[msudaisy26]

I am leaning Brady, because the players execute the plays. Great execution can overcome a poor play call and poor execution can ruin a great play call.

Plus Belicheck is 19 - 20 in New England without Brady, 6 - 14 before Brady, 10 - 5 with Cassell, and 3 - 1 with JG and Brissett. I am not counting or going back to look to see if Brady sat a game at the end of the regular season because the Pats were locked into a seed. 

He was also 36 - 44 with the Browns. For the record the are both the best, and helped each other out, but Brady has helped Bill out more. 

 

[bucksoh]

I know.  The Steelers philosophy of sticking with the same coach for a long period has really failed.  This franchise has just been a wasteland under Noll, Cowher and Tomlin       

I not sure if you watch Steelers games but they win in spite of Tomlin.  I've seen very few games were I thought they one because of him.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Completely disagree with the last sentence.  Belichick is the best coach in football.  He would have won at least one Super Bowl without Brady.  Hell take a look at Brady’s first SuperBowl win.  That whole playoff run had little to do with Brady and a lot to do with coaching (and a bit of luck).  He’s the most prepared coach in football.  If there is an advantage, he will find it.

I completely agree with the first half of your response, BB is an amazing coach and much more likely than not he would have found a qb good enough to win with. However, I firmly believe had Brady not come around at that exact moment they would have continued to lose with Bledsoe and BB could have easily been fired again after the 2002 season. There is little doubt in my mind had Bledsoe not been injured when he was Brady would have beaten him out the following TC, he already had outplayed him going into the 01 season and BB would have known his job was on the line in 02 and imo there is no question he would have gone to Brady sooner rather than later. People will downplay Bradys early contributions and no question Def and ST played a huge role, but the team responded to Brady and he lead them. Were Brady not there I think BB gets fired and his road to success becomes much more arduous. Trying to split them is an almost impossible task imho. 

 

[TwinTurbo]

I completely agree with the first half of your response, BB is an amazing coach and much more likely than not he would have found a qb good enough to win with. However, I firmly believe had Brady not come around at that exact moment they would have continued to lose with Bledsoe and BB could have easily been fired again after the 2002 season. There is little doubt in my mind had Bledsoe not been injured when he was Brady would have beaten him out the following TC, he already had outplayed him going into the 01 season and BB would have known his job was on the line in 02 and imo there is no question he would have gone to Brady sooner rather than later. People will downplay Bradys early contributions and no question Def and ST played a huge role, but the team responded to Brady and he lead them. Were Brady not there I think BB gets fired and his road to success becomes much more arduous. Trying to split them is an almost impossible task imho. 

BB is a much more "amazing" level coach because of Brady. But it's a domino effect if the Pats never draft Brady. How many QBs have come along in the past 18 years that could have adequately replaced him and that the Pats could have drafted or acquired? And at the very least, they would have lost big time in free agency over the years getting all those vets to play for less money because Brady. I think it's highly likely BB would have been fired by the Pats at some point after the 2002 season like you said. The only plus to not having Brady would have been higher picks in the draft. And maybe BB could have parlayed that into another frachise QB, albeit lesser than Brady.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

BB is a much more "amazing" level coach because of Brady. But it's a domino effect if the Pats never draft Brady. How many QBs have come along in the past 18 years that could have adequately replaced him and that the Pats could have drafted or acquired? And at the very least, they would have lost big time in free agency over the years getting all those vets to play for less money because Brady. I think it's highly likely BB would have been fired by the Pats at some point after the 2002 season like you said. The only plus to not having Brady would have been higher picks in the draft. And maybe BB could have parlayed that into another frachise QB, albeit lesser than Brady.

I think we agree on much, a bigger brady fan u will never, ever find, ive raised him from a pup and fought tooth and nail for him from the start (v Bledsoe, v Manning, v Montana, v whoever). However, I believe BB is the Brady of coaches and Brady is the BB of QBs and we r trying to split an atom. It can't be done afaic, but reasonable minds can disagree and its all good my man.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I think we agree on much, a bigger brady fan u will never, ever find, ive raised him from a pup and fought tooth and nail for him from the start (v Bledsoe, v Manning, v Montana, v whoever). However, I believe BB is the Brady of coaches and Brady is the BB of QBs and we r trying to split an atom. It can't be done afaic, but reasonable minds can disagree and its all good my man.

Yes agree. There is no way to split them up and know what would have actually happened. Pats fans are fortunate to have both.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Yes agree. There is no way to split them up and know what would have actually happened. Pats fans are fortunate to have both.

But then do you realize that it's sort of an asinine statement to say "Belichick almost certainly would have zero SuperBowl rings as head coach without Brady"?  That statement to me implies that Brady is 100% responsible for all of the SuperBowls.  It seems that you acknowledge that Belichick is a great coach.  If that's the case, I'm not sure how you could make that statement.    

 

[TwinTurbo]

But then do you realize that it's sort of an asinine statement to say "Belichick almost certainly would have zero SuperBowl rings as head coach without Brady"?  That statement to me implies that Brady is 100% responsible for all of the SuperBowls.  It seems that you acknowledge that Belichick is a great coach.  If that's the case, I'm not sure how you could make that statement.    

Nobody gets 100% of the credit or blame in a team sport. But I feel ok with my statement about BB because Brady is what makes his system work at a championship level. Its like Phil Jackson without Jordan or Shaq or Kobe. He would probably have zero rings as HC without them. Still a great coach though.

 

[Deamon]

Once and for all, it's plain as day.  

Belichick has solidified his position as the GOAT in NFL coaching.  

Brady is definitely still in the conversation of top tier all-time QBs, but this 3-0 start has certainly dinged his legacy a touch.  We are seeing that Belichick can coach them to a win with just about anyone at QB. 

#hottake

This didn't age so well.

 

[Faust]

Alex Guerrero: Bill Belichick 'never evolved' enough to keep up with Tom Brady

 

[IHEARTFF]

Just watched the two bills 30 for 30 and pretty excited for the matchup. GOAT vs GOAT. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

Alex Guerrero: Bill Belichick 'never evolved' enough to keep up with Tom Brady

Guerrero is a fraud.  I am sure the GOAT coach really cares what a guy who was once busted for pretending to be a doctor thinks.  

 

[Faust]

Tom Brady can stick it to Bill Belichick in what will be game for the ages