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Best pure hitter in MLB (1 Viewer)

Sinrman

Sinrman

Footballguy
I present to you Ichiro Suzuki! If the guy hadn't started in MLB at age 27 (and thus being about 6-8 years behind), he would beat Pete Rose's hits record). 200+ hits every year. Consistently hits about .330+ every year. Has a little power (should finish his career with about 100-120 HRs). Probably averages around 35+ stolen bases a year. He is 970 hits shy of 3000, which is quite impressive for as late as he started (he should eclipse that in 4, maybe 5 seasons at the rate he is going), assuming he keeps playing into his early 40's (he'll be 37 in Oct.).

Ichiro

 
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Matthias said:
Ichiro is behind Pujols, and probably ARod, and maybe a few others for best pure hitter in the MLB right now. If you're talking ever, without thinking about it too hard, I would throw out Ted Williams.

Something you have to remember is that a number of Ichiro's hits aren't due to his hitting skills but rather to a combination of his speed and the fact that he's left handed. It's not worth it to me to go nosing around for but I have read in the past that one aspect of Ichiro's swing is that as he's completing the swing he's beginning his first step to first base. So he gains some small extra margin of time there. And that might make him a good ball player, but it's being a pure hitter. Of his two thousand hits, nearly a quarter of them were in the infield.

Don't get me wrong. I think Ichiro is a great player. But he's not baseball's best pure hitter.
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Are you counting grounders down the line, up the middle and in the holes?
 
A-Rod is obviously a much, much better POWER hitter than Ichiro, but overall, he's NOT a better hitter than Ichiro, IMO.

 
I guess you'd have to break down the idea of "the best pure hitter" into a few concepts...

First, is he getting actual hits?

Second, are his outs due to not striking out and thus hitting the ball into play?

Third, is he hitting the ball with authority?

I think Ichiro is an incredibly talented baseball player who has a number of good skills (speed, batters eye, batting stance) that lets him have legit success at the major league level. I don't think he's the best pure hitter in the game.

 
Ichiro is great at hitting singles but he has little power and rarely takes a walk. His OPS+ of 118 is only tied for 44th best of ACTIVE players (although from the list a couple may not be active this year).

He ranks tied for 381st all time along with: Don Baylor, Charlie Bennett, Phil Cavarretta, Mike Easler, Frank Fennelly, Cecil Fielder, Andres Galarraga, Luis Gonzalez, Ken Griffey, Heinie Groh, George Harper, Bill Hinchman, Hughie Jennings, Danny Litwhiler, Gary Matthews, Frank McCormick, Bob Meusel, Irish Meusel, Wally Moon, Ed Morgan, Ben Oglivie, Floyd Robinson, Pete Rose, Norm Siebern, Lonnie Smith, Red Smith, Matt Stairs, Mike Sweeney, Hank Thompson, Chicken Wolf, Tom York

Interesting that he is tied with Pete Rose.

 
Sinrman said:
I present to you Ichiro Suzuki! If the guy hadn't started in MLB at age 27 (and thus being about 6-8 years behind), he would beat Pete Rose's hits record). 200+ hits every year. Consistently hits about .330+ every year. Has a little power (should finish his career with about 100-120 HRs). Probably averages around 35+ stolen bases a year. He is 970 hits shy of 3000, which is quite impressive for as late as he started (he should eclipse that in 4, maybe 5 seasons at the rate he is going), assuming he keeps playing into his early 40's (he'll be 37 in Oct.).

Ichiro
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Great contact hitter but too slappy and not enough power.
 
The problem with the A-Rod comparison is that his power numbers have been inflated by 1) drugs, and 2) to a lesser extent, the parks he's played in. The Kingdome, the Ballpark in Arlington and Yankee Stadium (not as much so although the newer version is very hitter friendly) have certainly helped his power numbers, which have obviously helped push up the OPS. Seattle's park (POST Kingdome) will never be considered a hitter's friendly park. Still an apples and oranges comparison.

 
Matthias said:
JJP said:
The problem with the A-Rod comparison is that his power numbers have been inflated by 1) drugs, and 2) to a lesser extent, the parks he's played in. The Kingdome, the Ballpark in Arlington and Yankee Stadium (not as much so although the newer version is very hitter friendly) have certainly helped his power numbers, which have obviously helped push up the OPS. Seattle's park (POST Kingdome) will never be considered a hitter's friendly park. Still an apples and oranges comparison.
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Drugs you can't do or say anything about. But ballparks are normalized through OPS+. And the last time that A-Rod had an OPS+ lower than Ichiro's career high was in 1997, when A-Rod was 22. Ichiro's career high OPS+ was 130 in 2004. A-Rod had an OPS+ of 120 in 1997 (although he did have an OPS+ of 160 the year before when he was 21).Trying to argue that Ichiro is a better pure hitter is just an all-around loser argument.By the way, A-Rod's first seven years? Where he played 5 full seasons and had an OPS+ of 162 at the age of 24? He was playing for the Mariners. And the last 2 years "POST Kingdome."
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On one hand you say you can't do anything about drugs but if drugs are making players hit considerably more home runs, then the OPS numbers are getting distorted. I'm sure Sammy Sosa had an OPS as good as anyone for a 4-5 year period but I don't think anyone would claim he was the best pure hitter in that period.If you were teaching your son to hit, who would you have him watch? The big swing power types who strike out over 100 times a year or the guys like Carew, Boggs or Brett? To me the answer would be obvious and it wouldn't be the swing-for the fence crowd.
 
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I am a HUGE Sox fan and I agree withthis. Ichiro#1, Splinter #2. I suspect Ichiro may be clean too which makes it even better. I don't consider the big juicers like Pujols and ARod as pure hitters. They just have more bat speed (roids) which let them start there swing later allowing them more time to identify which pitch is coming. Huge advantage imo. Wade Boggs was a great pure hitter also. And TG obviously.

 
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Are we talking all-time or just now?

I also think there is a difference between the "most productive hitter" (more OPS related) and best "pure" hitter. A pure hitter hits the ball to all fields and hits many doubles and triples in the gaps. A pure hitter is capable of hitting some home runs but they don't overswing or uppercut seeking them. Mauer comes to mind here. From years ago, Clemente, Brett and Boggs.

 
A hit is a hit btw. Any way you slice it Ichiro is the guy I want at the plate when I need a HIT!

 
You bat a line up of 9 Ichiroes and I'll bat a line up of 9 Pujolses, and my team will pound yours into a bloody pulp.

 
Matthias said:
Ichiro is behind Pujols, and probably ARod, and maybe a few others for best pure hitter in the MLB right now. If you're talking ever, without thinking about it too hard, I would throw out Ted Williams.Something you have to remember is that a number of Ichiro's hits aren't due to his hitting skills but rather to a combination of his speed and the fact that he's left handed. It's not worth it to me to go nosing around for but I have read in the past that one aspect of Ichiro's swing is that as he's completing the swing he's beginning his first step to first base. So he gains some small extra margin of time there. And that might make him a good ball player, but it's not him being a pure hitter. Of his two thousand hits, nearly a quarter of them were in the infield.Don't get me wrong. I think Ichiro is a great player. But he's not baseball's best pure hitter.
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Eh, I guess I can give you Pujols. I love Pujols and he is a beast. Great mix of power and hitting ability. His worst year was some 32 HRs and 103 RBI and still hit over .300. So I suppose I have no choice but to give you that.But A-Rod? Sorry, but I am one of those that could care less about what he has done or will do. He cheated by using drugs. His numbers may look impressive, but they are tainted. I know it's near-impossible for us to ever find out everyone that cheated and used performance enhancing drugs, and kudos to A-Rod for 'fessing up, but it still doesn't absolve him of using them and his #'s shouldn't mean squat.And ok, maybe the "Best of All-Time" might be a bit of a stretch. Ted Williams had a great swing. Ruth. Cobb. Few others.Ok, so need I revise it to say that I think Ichiro is the "Second best pure hitter in MLB today"? :lmao:
 
Sinrman said:
Matthias said:
Ichiro is behind Pujols, and probably ARod, and maybe a few others for best pure hitter in the MLB right now. If you're talking ever, without thinking about it too hard, I would throw out Ted Williams.Something you have to remember is that a number of Ichiro's hits aren't due to his hitting skills but rather to a combination of his speed and the fact that he's left handed. It's not worth it to me to go nosing around for but I have read in the past that one aspect of Ichiro's swing is that as he's completing the swing he's beginning his first step to first base. So he gains some small extra margin of time there. And that might make him a good ball player, but it's not him being a pure hitter. Of his two thousand hits, nearly a quarter of them were in the infield.Don't get me wrong. I think Ichiro is a great player. But he's not baseball's best pure hitter.
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Eh, I guess I can give you Pujols. I love Pujols and he is a beast. Great mix of power and hitting ability. His worst year was some 32 HRs and 103 RBI and still hit over .300. So I suppose I have no choice but to give you that.But A-Rod? Sorry, but I am one of those that could care less about what he has done or will do. He cheated by using drugs. His numbers may look impressive, but they are tainted. I know it's near-impossible for us to ever find out everyone that cheated and used performance enhancing drugs, and kudos to A-Rod for 'fessing up, but it still doesn't absolve him of using them and his #'s shouldn't mean squat.And ok, maybe the "Best of All-Time" might be a bit of a stretch. Ted Williams had a great swing. Ruth. Cobb. Few others.Ok, so need I revise it to say that I think Ichiro is the "Second best pure hitter in MLB today"? :P
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What's your definition of best hitter? Ability to put bat on ball? Ability to get on base? Most positive impact on team performance?I don't even think I'd put him top five today. He's a specialist. Fast and great at making contact. But he is weak in other areas.
 
Greco said:
George Herman Ruth, Jr.

Bio
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:ph34r: His HR totals were better than that of entire teams.

All that on a non-steroid diet of hot dogs & beer - while running like a little girl.

and for the modern statguys: 1.164 career OPS.

 
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Genedoc said:
You bat a line up of 9 Ichiroes and I'll bat a line up of 9 Pujolses, and my team will pound yours into a bloody pulp.
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And you have a team of cheaters. :confused:
 
Kind of surprised at some of this.

How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.

Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.

ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.

 
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Just Win Baby said:
Kind of surprised at some of this.How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.
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I was trying to keep it somewhat modern day. How can Willie Mays be overlooked?
 
Just Win Baby said:
Kind of surprised at some of this.How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.
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Ichiro is the only guy on that list I ever saw play. I am a hitting Guru and he is by far the best hitter I have ever seen. I mean using hitting to get on base. He is a hitting machine and if I was a pitcher I wouldnt even know where to begin with him as he hits EVERYTHING. I suspect cobb and others were similar but I never saw them.
 
I think a distinction certainly needs to be made for the modern era.

I mean, if you look at Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth's stats, they are mind boggling. But the game (and talent level) was very different then and now.

Put me in the camp that Ichiro is on the very short list of the best hitter of the baseball to have played the game in the modern era. I don't have it in front of me, but I mean, I remember hearing things like "Ichiro has swung and missed at a ball 18 times this season" or something to that effect. That's pretty impressive. He strikes out at a lower percentage than Pujols. And the fact he doesn't really have that much power (meaning when he strikes the ball, many more times than not, it's going to stay in the ball park), yet he hits for a career average of ~ .333 is pretty remarkable to me. And lastly, his mlb stats didn't even start compiling until he was over 27 (whereas Pujols enjoyed playing in his early and mid 20's).

I enjoy watching Ichiro hit the ball.

 
Da Guru said:
Just Win Baby said:
Kind of surprised at some of this.How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.
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I was trying to keep it somewhat modern day. How can Willie Mays be overlooked?
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Hmm, I guess it was the "Possibly ever..." that threw me.As for Mays, he is without a doubt one of the few best players ever. But I don't see him in the discussion for best pure hitter ever... his lifetime batting average was .302, which is currently 187th in MLB history. And his adjusted OPS+ is "just" 21st all time.
 
guru_007 said:
I think a distinction certainly needs to be made for the modern era.I mean, if you look at Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth's stats, they are mind boggling. But the game (and talent level) was very different then and now.Put me in the camp that Ichiro is on the very short list of the best hitter of the baseball to have played the game in the modern era. I don't have it in front of me, but I mean, I remember hearing things like "Ichiro has swung and missed at a ball 18 times this season" or something to that effect. That's pretty impressive. He strikes out at a lower percentage than Pujols. And the fact he doesn't really have that much power (meaning when he strikes the ball, many more times than not, it's going to stay in the ball park), yet he hits for a career average of ~ .333 is pretty remarkable to me. And lastly, his mlb stats didn't even start compiling until he was over 27 (whereas Pujols enjoyed playing in his early and mid 20's). I enjoy watching Ichiro hit the ball.
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How do you define modern era?
 
Just Win Baby said:
guru_007 said:
I think a distinction certainly needs to be made for the modern era.I mean, if you look at Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth's stats, they are mind boggling. But the game (and talent level) was very different then and now.Put me in the camp that Ichiro is on the very short list of the best hitter of the baseball to have played the game in the modern era. I don't have it in front of me, but I mean, I remember hearing things like "Ichiro has swung and missed at a ball 18 times this season" or something to that effect. That's pretty impressive. He strikes out at a lower percentage than Pujols. And the fact he doesn't really have that much power (meaning when he strikes the ball, many more times than not, it's going to stay in the ball park), yet he hits for a career average of ~ .333 is pretty remarkable to me. And lastly, his mlb stats didn't even start compiling until he was over 27 (whereas Pujols enjoyed playing in his early and mid 20's). I enjoy watching Ichiro hit the ball.
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How do you define modern era?
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post wwII
 
I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single and 2) A double, triple, HR are much more valuable than a single.

Ichiro is nowhere near the best hitter in baseball in the modern era, and he's not even top five today. Then again, if you define hitting as "when he swings at a pitch, his ability to make it 90 feet". The best hitter is the best offensive producer, and Ichiro isn't even close. Yes, his average is good and his K rate is decent (though nowhere near guys like Polanco and Pedroia). But his OBP (30th in 2009), BB rate (11th worst in baseball) and power (near the bottom of the league) range from mediocre to downright terrible.

 
PIK95 said:
Just Win Baby said:
Kind of surprised at some of this.How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.
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Ichiro is the only guy on that list I ever saw play. I am a hitting Guru and he is by far the best hitter I have ever seen. I mean using hitting to get on base. He is a hitting machine and if I was a pitcher I wouldnt even know where to begin with him as he hits EVERYTHING. I suspect cobb and others were similar but I never saw them.
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Even by your definition of hitting to get on base, Pujols is better. .334 vs .333 lifetime BAs. Though I cant see how slap hitting and bunting with a foot already down the line makes someone a better hitter than consistently squaring and driving the ball. Its almost like fighting the same fight Ty Cobb lost in the 20s. Babe Ruth showed that just putting the ball in play to get on base was not the best way to hit.
 
igbomb said:
I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is almost as good as a single and 2) A double, triple, HR are much more valuable than a single.

Ichiro is nowhere near the best hitter in baseball in the modern era, and he's not even top five today. Then again, if you define hitting as "when he swings at a pitch, his ability to make it 90 feet". The best hitter is the best offensive producer, and Ichiro isn't even close. Yes, his average is good and his K rate is decent (though nowhere near guys like Polanco and Pedroia). But his OBP (30th in 2009), BB rate (11th worst in baseball) and power (near the bottom of the league) range from mediocre to downright terrible.
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Fixed
 
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