Best pure hitter in MLB (1 Viewer)

[igbomb]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is almost as good as a single and 2) A double, triple, HR are much more valuable than a single.

Ichiro is nowhere near the best hitter in baseball in the modern era, and he's not even top five today. Then again, if you define hitting as "when he swings at a pitch, his ability to make it 90 feet". The best hitter is the best offensive producer, and Ichiro isn't even close. Yes, his average is good and his K rate is decent (though nowhere near guys like Polanco and Pedroia). But his OBP (30th in 2009), BB rate (11th worst in baseball) and power (near the bottom of the league) range from mediocre to downright terrible.

Fixed

Good catch. My mistake.

 

[Da Guru]

Kind of surprised at some of this.How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.

I was trying to keep it somewhat modern day. How can Willie Mays be overlooked?

Hmm, I guess it was the "Possibly ever..." that threw me.As for Mays, he is without a doubt one of the few best players ever. But I don't see him in the discussion for best pure hitter ever... his lifetime batting average was .302, which is currently 187th in MLB history. And his adjusted OPS+ is "just" 21st all time.

Willie Mays hung on way too long and it hurt his BA.

 

[Tau837]

Kind of surprised at some of this.How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.

I was trying to keep it somewhat modern day. How can Willie Mays be overlooked?

Hmm, I guess it was the "Possibly ever..." that threw me.As for Mays, he is without a doubt one of the few best players ever. But I don't see him in the discussion for best pure hitter ever... his lifetime batting average was .302, which is currently 187th in MLB history. And his adjusted OPS+ is "just" 21st all time.

Willie Mays hung on way too long and it hurt his BA.

Even if you ignore the last 10 years of his career, Mays' batting average to that point (through 12 seasons and age 32) was .315. That is a great batting average, to be sure, but it doesn't put him in the discussion for best pure hitters of all time.

 

[igbomb]

Kind of surprised at some of this.How is it that Cobb has been mentioned only once in this thread? He had a lifetime batting average of .366 and led the league in batting average 11 times (and was 2nd another 4 times)... he is also 2nd in hits, 2nd in singles, 4th in doubles, and 2nd in triples.Hornsby is another obvious candidate who hasn't even been mentioned at all in the thread. Ruth and Williams are also very worthy of discussion. Ichiro isn't even in this conversation IMO.ETA: Josh Gibson also deserves consideration, though I don't think he can be definitively chosen as the best given the lack of statistical evidence.

I was trying to keep it somewhat modern day. How can Willie Mays be overlooked?

Hmm, I guess it was the "Possibly ever..." that threw me.As for Mays, he is without a doubt one of the few best players ever. But I don't see him in the discussion for best pure hitter ever... his lifetime batting average was .302, which is currently 187th in MLB history. And his adjusted OPS+ is "just" 21st all time.

Willie Mays hung on way too long and it hurt his BA.

Even if you ignore the last 10 years of his career, Mays' batting average to that point (through 12 seasons and age 32) was .315. That is a great batting average, to be sure, but it doesn't put him in the discussion for best pure hitters of all time.

I'm not trying to suggest that Mays is the best because I don't think he is. But I also think that batting average is nowhere near the best measure of a hitter's contribution. Even if you don't buy into the newest metrics just yet, at the very least we should be using something like OPS+. Batting average is only part of the story.

 

[Tau837]

I think a distinction certainly needs to be made for the modern era.I mean, if you look at Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth's stats, they are mind boggling. But the game (and talent level) was very different then and now.Put me in the camp that Ichiro is on the very short list of the best hitter of the baseball to have played the game in the modern era. I don't have it in front of me, but I mean, I remember hearing things like "Ichiro has swung and missed at a ball 18 times this season" or something to that effect. That's pretty impressive. He strikes out at a lower percentage than Pujols. And the fact he doesn't really have that much power (meaning when he strikes the ball, many more times than not, it's going to stay in the ball park), yet he hits for a career average of ~ .333 is pretty remarkable to me. And lastly, his mlb stats didn't even start compiling until he was over 27 (whereas Pujols enjoyed playing in his early and mid 20's). I enjoy watching Ichiro hit the ball.

How do you define modern era?

post wwII

OK, well right off the bat Williams and Musial come to mind as being in the running for the best pure hitter in that defined era, regardless of the definition of "pure hitter." Pujols would be in the discussion, though we haven't seen Pujols' decline yet, while we have for older players, so I'm not sure he will look as good for this distinction when all is said and done.If we're focused on high average, low power hitters, I'd say Gwynn, Boggs, and Carew were all better during this defined era too.If we focused on combination of average with OBP and slugging, there would obviously be many others, including most of the players named in this thread.

 

[Tau837]

I was trying to keep it somewhat modern day. How can Willie Mays be overlooked?

Hmm, I guess it was the "Possibly ever..." that threw me.As for Mays, he is without a doubt one of the few best players ever. But I don't see him in the discussion for best pure hitter ever... his lifetime batting average was .302, which is currently 187th in MLB history. And his adjusted OPS+ is "just" 21st all time.

Willie Mays hung on way too long and it hurt his BA.

Even if you ignore the last 10 years of his career, Mays' batting average to that point (through 12 seasons and age 32) was .315. That is a great batting average, to be sure, but it doesn't put him in the discussion for best pure hitters of all time.

I'm not trying to suggest that Mays is the best because I don't think he is. But I also think that batting average is nowhere near the best measure of a hitter's contribution. Even if you don't buy into the newest metrics just yet, at the very least we should be using something like OPS+. Batting average is only part of the story.

I agree. I never commented on what I think of batting average as a metric. I was focusing mostly on average because it seems to be representative of what the OP was largely focusing on. Frankly, I think batting average is grossly overrated.

 

[PIK95]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single and 2) A double, triple, HR are much more valuable than a single.

Ichiro is nowhere near the best hitter in baseball in the modern era, and he's not even top five today. Then again, if you define hitting as "when he swings at a pitch, his ability to make it 90 feet". The best hitter is the best offensive producer, and Ichiro isn't even close. Yes, his average is good and his K rate is decent (though nowhere near guys like Polanco and Pedroia). But his OBP (30th in 2009), BB rate (11th worst in baseball) and power (near the bottom of the league) range from mediocre to downright terrible.

 

[dparker713]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single and 2) A double, triple, HR are much more valuable than a single.

Ichiro is nowhere near the best hitter in baseball in the modern era, and he's not even top five today. Then again, if you define hitting as "when he swings at a pitch, his ability to make it 90 feet". The best hitter is the best offensive producer, and Ichiro isn't even close. Yes, his average is good and his K rate is decent (though nowhere near guys like Polanco and Pedroia). But his OBP (30th in 2009), BB rate (11th worst in baseball) and power (near the bottom of the league) range from mediocre to downright terrible.

Interesting, you claim to be a hitting Guru, yet you dont even understand the fundamentals of winning baseball.

 

[awesomeness]

When i think of a pure hitter, the first thing that comes to mind is Chris Shelton a la April 3rd to April 8th 2006.

 

[Finless]

Manny Ramirez is the first to come to mind.

Tests have been done. Manny has the closest thing to a perfect swing on record.

 

[Finless]

Manny Ramirez is the first to come to mind.

Tests have been done. Manny has the closest thing to a perfect swing on record.

Evidence

 

[thetman]

You bat a line up of 9 Ichiroes and I'll bat a line up of 9 Pujolses, and my team will pound yours into a bloody pulp.

And you have a team of cheaters.

You are an idiot. Do you have proof? Or do you just like to try to stir up #### by spouting off like an imbecile?

 

[Limp Ditka]

You bat a line up of 9 Ichiroes and I'll bat a line up of 9 Pujolses, and my team will pound yours into a bloody pulp.

And you have a team of cheaters.

You are an idiot. Do you have proof? Or do you just like to try to stir up #### by spouting off like an imbecile?

oof

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Neifi Perez

 

[Mr. Pickles]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single

No. Not even close, actually.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Neifi Perez

:neifi:

 

[dparker713]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single

No. Not even close, actually.

It is pretty close. A single is worth about .15 more runs than a walk.

 

[igbomb]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single

No. Not even close, actually.

Keep reading.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Tony Gwynn> Ichiro

 

[eoMMan]

Tony Gwynn> Ichiro

Tony Gwynn makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcom X.

 

[Eephus]

Tony Gwynn> Ichiro

Tony Gwynn makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcom X.

Tony Gwynn could eat Ichiro, Gumbel and Malcolm's remains

 

[Mr. Pickles]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single

No. Not even close, actually.

It is pretty close. A single is worth about .15 more runs than a walk.

It's not close. A single is worth anywhere from 50% more to double the runs produced by a walk.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

My comments about singles versus walks kind of takes away from my stance on players that display patience. You can be an excellent contact hitter and take a lot of walks. One doesn't have to come at the detriment of the other. The best outcome, given a finite number of good pitches to hit, is to smash the hell out of strikes and take walks if you're thrown junk. Bonds mastered this art from 2001-2004. As a result, his RC/G was astronomical: 18.6, 21.3, 16.7, and 22.0. For context, Babe Ruth topped out at 17.6 in 1920.

 

[dparker713]

I think the people in this thread have forgotten a couple of key points about hitting: 1) A walk is as good as a single

No. Not even close, actually.

It is pretty close. A single is worth about .15 more runs than a walk.

It's not close. A single is worth anywhere from 50% more to double the runs produced by a walk.

Dont think it's ever quite double, and thats situation neutral, based on the run environment. In a standard run scoring environment I think I recall it being more like 30%, but its been a while since I looked at the chart.

 

[snitwitch]

Best purr hitter: either Andres Galarraga or Frank Catalanotto

I LOVE his Madden impersonation.

Hm. I'm still trying to figure out what you guys are using as your yardstick for pure hitter, though. Do you think hitting is different than power hitting? Is hitting for average more important than having a higher OBP? Are we talking about some sort of "sweet swing"? Or hitters who really analyze the art of hitting?

One thing that I found remarkable about Ted Williams is how much you would hear that he really thought about the art and skill of hitting... of what angle he should come through on, where his best zones were, just everything.

He wrote the book on the subject. Easily the best pure hitter in history. I'd say Pujols today. Ichiro is a slap hitter.

 

[snitwitch]

Manny Ramirez is the first to come to mind.

Tests have been done. Manny has the closest thing to a perfect swing on record.

Evidence

He's not loading his hips at all.