IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
It's almost as if you deliberately seek out the worst possible sources of information. It's not that your bubble is uncurated -- it's more like that it's anti-curated, if such a thing is even possible.
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Bette Midler not a WV fan (1 Viewer)
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STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Award winning blackwriter Danzy Senna on Robin DeAngelo`s books:
How we have wished that white people would leave us out of their self-preoccupied, ham-fisted, kindergarten-level discussions of race. But be careful what you wish for. To anyone who has been conscious of race for a lifetime, these books can’t help feeling less brave than curiously backward.
The idea of bravery gets performed a lot in DiAngelo’s book, as she time and again steps in as savior to her Black friends, who apparently need a bold white person like her to take over the wearisome task of educating unselfaware, well-meaning white people.
In a curated space and for an ample fee, she heroically takes on a job that Black people have been doing for free in workplaces and at schools and in relationships over the centuries. As she acknowledges, she also “could not articulate the dynamics of white fragility without … reading the work of Black writers who came before my time.” Indeed, everything she notices about whiteness has been noticed by Black writers long before her.
DiAngelo’s lilly whiteness is her not-so-secret sauce, giving her crucial entrée to audiences who, as she puts it, “are more likely to be open to initial challenges to racial positions … from a fellow white person.”
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NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
TIL: West Virginia has a higher literacy rate than California or New York.
If you're from NY or CA: The literacy rate is the total number of literate persons (people able to both read and write) in a given group, expressed as the percentage of that group.
If you're from NY or CA: The literacy rate is the total number of literate persons (people able to both read and write) in a given group, expressed as the percentage of that group.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
If you're a white person in America, social justice educator Robin DiAngelo has a message for you: You're a racist, pure and simple, and without a lifetime of conscious effort you always will be.
That is from this piece and interview with her. This article and interview was definitely a friendly lean for her.
timschochet
Footballguy
The point is that conscious effort can prevent you from being a racist. That’s the exact opposite of how many here are attempting to portray her.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Do you really want to get into this here? It’s a side discussion in a thread that has nothing to do with racism. The answer is, according to her, yes: as a white person in our society, if you don’t make a conscious effort not to be a racist, then you are one.
It’s obviously a very provocative idea, similar in some respects to critical race theory, and it’s going to piss a whole lot of people off, particularly conservatives. My only concern is: does it have merit? I don’t know, I’m not sure. I’m in partial agreement with it, I think. Not full agreement.
timschochet
Footballguy
You need to stop with the headlines and look at the gist of her arguments. You probably still won’t agree with them (I only partly do, as I wrote) but it’s more nuanced than the headline.
If you didn't want to discuss this here you shouldn't have brought a nutjob grifter in to the discussion. This idea is provocative because it's ridiculous. From the link above that parasaurolophus posted:
The sentiment in the quote above is ridiculous. If you believe someone has to be racist simply because they're white you've got problems. Sorry. For one thing, no one is 100% white. So at what point can a person who is not 100% white not be racist? Is someone who is 70% white racist? Is Obama racist because he's 50% white? Come on man.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
"Racism comes out of our pores as white people. It's the way that we are."
Who wants to guess who said that??? Anybody?
Who wants to guess who said that??? Anybody?
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
After two decades of bettering herself does she still consider herself to be not racist anymore?
"I’m really confident that I do less damage to people of color than I used to do. That is what I can say to you. I do less damage than I used to."
"I’m really confident that I do less damage to people of color than I used to do. That is what I can say to you. I do less damage than I used to."
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Now we get to listen to some timsplaining about how her own words don't mean what she is saying.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
"To be unpicking my privilege, my supremacy, my colonized mind. That’s tough enough. But to be faced with blank looks from fellow whites. That’s the real rusty razor to the carotid artery.”
timschochet
Footballguy
No, some of what she is saying is extreme. Even so I agree with her fundamental point: that as white people we are all raised to be a little bit racist and will continue to be all of our lives until we work at it. I’m more optimistic than she is that we can do this.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’m never going to convince you in a way that you will find compelling so it’s not really worth continuing. But she’s not a nutjob, and she’s not a grifter.
You could just answer my question. Is Obama racist if he's 50% white? And he was raised by a white person so wouldn't that, using your own words, mean he is at least a little bit racist? What should he do to work on it?
timschochet
Footballguy
Obama himself answered your question, back in March of 2008, in what I regard as his greatest speech. Here is the full transcript:
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88478467
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
"Nope, this is what one person who probably also voted for Biden stupidly said on Twitter" would be my response.
A big problem I see is happening is equating one person's views and posts to their whole "side".
I asked you if, based upon the person you've been pushing, and your own words, Obama was racist. I don't care if Obama thinks he's racist. Just like you think you're racist simply because you're white, not because of anything you've done or any views you consciously hold. And you think any white person is racist simply for being white. It doesn't matter what that person thinks. So, is Obama racist or isn't he?
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Let's not pretend Bette Midler is the only person who thinks West Virginia is full of strung out uneducated poor people.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’m not running. The questions you ask cannot be answered in a few sentences. They are answered by the entire speech, which is was about Obama’s relationship with Jeremiah Wright and also his white, racist grandmother whom he loved.
I edited my post. In fact, I deleted what you just responded to and asked something completely different because Obama's words aren't relevant to this discussion.
timschochet
Footballguy
dgreen
Footballguy
I know you don't think race has to do with Bette Midler's tweet, but many people do. That's why race came up in this thread.
timschochet
Footballguy
They were absolutely relevant to your question. But again, we should find a new thread to discuss it in.
Hope you have a merry Christmas.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Sorry for the slight derail, but this interests me. As in see his new movies, or never watch any Gibson movie. I understand people have different lines, and I am just interested in how people react to people like Cosby, Gibson, Spacey, etc.. who work on something that 100s of other people did as well.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK I’m game. What does race have to do with Bette’ thread? So far as I can see, she was making a class and regional comment, not a racial one.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
No, I would guess not. I also don't think the number is nearly large enough to be able to say something like your friends do - ie this is what your "side thinks of us".
Maybe you addressed it, but why exactly were your friends happy that she said that? Is it basically because it fed into that opinion they had of the other side of the aisle?
Do you think if Joe Manchin represented a state with a large poor African American population she would have made the same comment?
timschochet
Footballguy
Most of Mel Gibson’s movies, from the time he made his comments, were his creation. He wrote, directed, starred, etc. I won’t spend my money on him any longer.
FWIW I don’t go to Woody Allen movies anymore either, and I used to be a huge fan. But after watching the documentary on Showtime, I’m convinced he is a child molester.
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm not trying to convince you that is race is involved. I'm just saying that I think it's clear that people think race is at least a tangential topic to her tweet.
I'd say that race enters this topic mostly related to how people reacted to her tweet. Most notably, people feel that responses like yours are based on the race of those on the receiving end of the tweet. Had the tweet been directed at a group that was 93.5% non-white, the assumption is there would be a different reaction and the racism label would be applied. The claim that race is out of scope of this thread is something that leads some to counter that race is now in scope.
timschochet
Footballguy
Maybe not because if she did, then it might have been perceived as racist. But since WV is largely white, and Bette Midler is white, it wasn’t a racist comment. It was a class insult, a regional insult. That doesn’t justify it.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Gotcha. Like I said people have different lines, and I battle with this one. I have an easier time with a musician or stand up comedian - where it is clearer that it's mostly just them. I struggle more with directors and actors who are a part of a team of 100s to make a movie. Thanks for answering.
timschochet
Footballguy
That is true. I believe in a double standard where race is concerned, as I wrote. I think it’s highly unusual, almost impossible, for racism to occur against white people in this country.
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm not willing to put a number on it, but I think there is a significant number of people in this country who look down on rural white America.
timschochet
Footballguy
Oh hell yes. I hear it all the time.
I don’t look down on West Virginia myself, but Bakersfield and Fresno? That’s another story….
Mile High
Footballguy
Sure there are. Look at the numbers. They indicate West Virginia ranks in the top/bottom 8 states in those categories. Two of those categories they are 1 or 2.
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I don't think there's any doubt this is the case. That's why the narrative has changed.
supermike80
Footballguy
Yeah he got beaten up pretty badly on this one. Can't blame him for trying to end it.You brought it up. But I get it. Drive by. Then cut and run.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm definitely of the belief that privilege exists and life is much better for whites than non-whites in this country. I also believe that it's not a huge deal, in my own personal life experiences, to just put up with the double standards.
But, demographics are changing. We are becoming less white and that's going to continue. I think if these attitudes towards white people continue, at some point that's going to result in things that are a bit more serious than whining. I worry that once the day comes that large portions of white people have had enough, we won't be able to just flip the switch and change those attitudes towards them.
So, either all these efforts to get white people to change better work or I think it might be good to find a different way to approach all of this.
dgreen
Footballguy
Yep. As someone who lives in a wealthy major metropolitan area, I hear it all the time. And, as someone who has a lot of friends and relatives who live in the South, I hear them complaining about it all the time.
crackattack
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Where I am left-leaning with mostly left people around me in small town WI, and don't hear that aspect of the "sides" battle at all.
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